307 – Upselling services

[00:00:00] Nathan Wrigley: Welcome to the WP Builds podcast, bringing you the latest news from the WordPress community. Now, welcome your hosts David Waumsley and Nathan Wrigley.

Hello there and welcome once again to the WP Builds podcast. You have reached episode number 307 entitled Upselling Services. It was published on Thursday, the 8th of December, 2022. My name's Nathan Wrigley, and I'll be joined in a few short minutes by my good friend David Worsley, so that we can have our podcast episode chat before then.

A few bits of housekeeping if you fancy tearing yourself away from Twitter and other forms of social media. You may have heard about Masteron. WP Builds has had a instance of Macon available freely for I think about 18 months now. It's [email protected] once more, WP Builds.social, and at the moment it's fairly quiet, which is really nice.

I'm hoping to liven it up a little bit. So if you fancy making WP Builds your home on Masteron, go and sign up. Another thing to mention is our subscribe page, WP Builds.com/subscribe. Go there and fill out the form and you'll be able to keep updated of the content that we produce. Typically a podcast episode on a Thursday, but also the this week in word pressure, which is live every Monday, but repackaged as a podcast audio episode the following day.

So that's Tuesday, and we'll keep you updated with all of that. There are still some Black Friday deals on our Black Friday page, WP Builds.com/black. Hopefully all of the deals that you see on that page are in fact, still in existence because we've set them to expire and be unpublished going back into a draft state once the date of expiry has passed. So hopefully it'll be useful. There's probably still quite a lot on that page.

The WP Builds podcast was brought to you today by GoDaddy Pro. GoDaddy Pro, the home of managed WordPress hosting that includes free domain SSL and 24 7 support. Bundle that with The Hub by GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients, and get 30% of new purchases. You can find out more by using our special link go.me/WPBuilds. That's go dot me slash WP Builds. And we really do want to thank GoDaddy Pro for their ongoing support of the WP Builds podcast.

Okay. As I said at the top of the show, today's episode is simply called Upselling Services. This is in our WordPress Business Bootcamp series. We're approaching the end of the entire series. We've been doing it for nearly a year now, and we're talking about all of the bits and pieces that you can do after the website has essentially been finished. And of course, upselling things is a really sensible thing to do. So that might be things that you would add into a care plan.

It could be things like hosting. It could be email design. It could be email hosting, content creation, promotion. You might be trying to work, find out ways of minimizing the environmental impact of people's websites, seo, branding. The list just goes on and on. We do go down a few rabbit holes. We get distracted a few times in this episode.

I hope you stay with us. But it's a really interesting chat about all of the things that you can be doing to generate money after the website. It's been finished. I hope that you enjoy it.

[00:03:50] David Waumsley: Welcome to another in the Business bootcamp series where we relearn everything we know about building WebPress sites and running a web design business from start to finish.

We're on season five, which is the last in this bootcamp series, and in this one we're talking about all the stuff that goes on after a website is built. And we are on episode four, which is about upselling services. So as always, Nathan and I are taking contrasting approaches to get our new businesses running and our first client site built, she's a lawyer with no previous site.

And I guess we're gonna start talking about, when we're talking about upselling services, this shows the difference between your approach and mine with the Agile and

[00:04:32] Nathan Wrigley: traditional. Yeah, there's a whole ton of difference. In some of the episodes there wasn't really much, but in this one I think there, there really is, just because of the nature of your continuing convers.

With your clients? Yeah. I feel like a lot of this is in scope, whereas for me where the project is just more or less handed over on a certain agreed date, and then everything is basically an upsell. And so it feels more as if I would need to be a bonafide, incredible sales person to get people to part with money for a lot of the stuff that we're gonna talk about.

Whereas with you, it might just be part of an organic discovery of how the website's going, as you're chatting to them day by. . Yeah, exactly. I

[00:05:15] David Waumsley: mean, with at least my approach to Agile, that's the idea. The deal is, we'll start with the lowest cost to get something online and we'll monitor, see what data comes in and we'll keep adding to see if we can get a better return for your money all the time.

So the assumption is there is, assuming that I've done something that's useful in the first place, there is that root in. So upselling is expected, from the beginning with me. But we're doing this as part of the after build, but a lot of these upsells start from the beginning. I would say. Certainly I have one, which is before I even build a site, which is the SEO report.

That's really not what they came to me in the first place for. I instantly sell them something different.

[00:06:03] Nathan Wrigley: Do you actually sell them the SEO report as in, do they part with money to gain the SEO report, or is it just part of the sort of discovery process figuring out. What you would end up doing for them?

[00:06:17] David Waumsley: Yeah, I mean I've, this is not actually what I call it, SEO report is the wrong word. I actually call it a competitor analysis and SEO keyword thing. So to kick off I say, because we're going through this agile approach, what we're g we want you to spend money on the basis of stuff that's actually going to generate you some income from it.

We wanna start with what's possible and we'll build. The site and see what needs doing on the basis of what we know already. So before I say, this is a lower cost to them, before I say we start working together on the site, let's do this one job. It's a kind of low risk thing, and now I insist upon it, so I'm instantly in with an upsell, which isn't what, why they came to me. . Yeah. , yeah.

[00:07:03] Nathan Wrigley: We're both staring at a shared document. Yeah. Which we always create when we make these episodes. And basically it's a bullet pointed list of a whole myriad of different things that we could upsell. I'll make sure to put all of these different things in the show notes.

They're divided into different areas, different topics or themes if you like. And it strikes me that quite a lot of these are things which you might just organically do as part of your website build anyway. Some of them, you can't really have a website without some of these things, but it's whether or not you treat them as.

There's bolt on, add on services or whether or not you just encapsulate them all as part of the deal. What a client would expect. Some of them are a bit out there. They're definitely not the kind of things that you would imagine a client would come asking for, but some of them are very much in scope for just that's gonna come with part of the website, isn't it?

The first

[00:08:00] David Waumsley: we've got on our list is website hosted services, which is definitely something I upsell.

[00:08:06] Nathan Wrigley: . Yeah. This is, I would imagine virtually everybody is gonna be upselling this at some point. Now, we're not talking about serving websites up on your own hardware, we're just literally talking about, you are gonna say to them you've got a website, you need a host.

Here's a list. Are you treating this as an affiliate thing where you point them towards a particular host or, I think I'm right in saying you try to get them on your own digital ocean droplets and charge them a monthly fee for the ongoing up time of their website.

[00:08:39] David Waumsley: Exactly.

Mine's just part of the care and the hosting and they see it as hosting. So it's just, yeah, I've, I'm running my own server and that's it. This is another topic almost in itself, in it cuz a lot of people will just maybe take an affiliate as a way of earning a little extra, some may use of service and which is white labeled.

So they're providing it that way through something else. And then there are a whole bunch of people. Don't want to be connected with that at all. Don't want the headache of

[00:09:09] Nathan Wrigley: it. Yeah. I think if you are doing this, there's definitely different options. I think the preferred option for me now would, the two that I would prefer would be just getting them, pointing them towards a host, which I know is reliable and basically saying, you go over there, set up your account, put your credit card on, that's now for you, and give me the credentials and I can log in, whatever that might be or your approach.

But I, I think more and more I'd be inclined to do the pointing them towards another web host approach.

[00:09:42] David Waumsley: Looking back to the early days, there wasn't the options that I've got now there, when I first started really shared hosting is the best we could offer the clients in their budget, and we would recommend people, but I didn't think there was ever, and I think that's still the case if we're dealing with WordPress and, you're not turning it into a static site.

You really, you've got to advise the client what's going to be a suitable hosting for the tools that we're going to use on their site. Yeah. That's right. I, so I think, we can never fully get away for them, but I think in terms of financial upsell, some people will not want to do that.

They'll want to say, they're a good service, but you deal with them. I

[00:10:21] Nathan Wrigley: think, I think this one is the most straightforward to pitch though, because there's a direct connection between. My website existing and hosting, yeah. It's, if you can't somehow convince them that they need web hosting, then I think it's time to pack up, frankly.

And seek a different job. . Yes.

[00:10:40] David Waumsley: Would you like that site to go live? Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[00:10:42] Nathan Wrigley: Do okay. We've built this website. Do you actually want it? Yeah. Okay. We need a host. But going onto that though, there are other aspects of that, and maybe these are things that we once would've done, but I think they're becoming less and less popular in our industry.

That is to say upselling email hosting. Certainly. I don't know anybody these days who is really hosting their own emails. I definitely used to do that. But for me, this is very much a question of, I'm just gonna point you towards one of the services that I know works. It might be Google Workspace or whatever it's called now.

Simply pushing them towards that. And there, there may be an affiliate link in there, but there may not be. Yeah,

[00:11:24] David Waumsley: it's, yeah, for me, that goes in the category of too much hassle yeah. To be dealing with and beyond my knowledge really. I, but also, it's

[00:11:32] Nathan Wrigley: so critical, I would say even more potentially than the website.

Yes. Because it's gotta be there 24 7. There could be a whole bunch of people that require that. And obviously, if there's any sort of e-commerce or whatever it may be the support process is probably at some point or other going to require on email. Yeah, I think give this, to, give this to people who are expert in email hosting, and I just mentioned Google, but of course there's a whole ton companies that will handle this for you.

,

[00:12:03] David Waumsley: email marketing. So you've done some of

[00:12:05] Nathan Wrigley: this? Yeah, I definitely did. It's, it was never an area that I was all that comfortable with and I didn't do very much of it. For me, it was more a case that the client wanted, the emails not just to be plain text. They wanted the emails to have a certain look and feel.

And this was in the day when achieving that was much more difficult than it is now. And now the software is so good inside all of these email marketing platforms. Actually if I say something like MailChimp, I actually don't know what their tool's cuz it's been years. But we get the point, there's a builder you can drag and drop elements in and all of that.

This was before all of that was really wizzywig. And so I was able to construct templates which they liked, and then we just swapped out the copy and the text and, made sure the links were all working and then sent those out. No idea whether it was particularly successful, but I did do it.

I quite enjoyed it, but it wasn't something I would ever have wanted to pivot towards. But it definitely, it's definitely worthwhile. And I think depending on the size of the company, I think email marketing's never gone. I think it's one of those things, just like the website, people always talk about that social media was gonna take over and it was gonna obliterate email marketing.

My understanding is that email marketing is still successful. So there is definitely, I hate to use the phrase, money on the table here. I think if you can persuade them that you are the right person to do the marketing with email, I think there's definitely a legit upsell. Yeah,

[00:13:38] David Waumsley: and I think it's something I can, I've really never done it for anyone.

A lot of my clients have managed to find MailChimp and sort it out for themselves and do it. But I, it's always something that I feel is part of what I should be talking about. Cause I know it's a very successful form of marketing and often, in the design of a site, it might be a good idea to add some kind of free offer in exchange for an email address.

It's part of the design chat about how we're going to get you the best results from this website. And, that's one of

[00:14:13] Nathan Wrigley: those kind of, yeah for me it was interesting because the person that approached me was their marketing person and it was pure. So they knew exactly what the text needed to be.

They knew all how the branding of the emails wanted. They basically gave me a PDF and said, replicate that. And I said, yeah, okay. That's fine. That's possible. We went through a few rounds of actually email that's probably not gonna work and so on. But after the series of emails that I sent out on their behalf, she then went and became an email marketing person that became her job and she would consult businesses and do the email marketing.

But I suspect that the tools got good enough that she didn't need somebody like me to actually build the email templates cuz she could just do it in MailChimp. And I still see her and she's successfully doing it still as far as I know. Yeah, so I think

[00:15:10] David Waumsley: as an upsell, I mean there is a distinction here where I would be quite interested to get involved, at least charge some of my time for, it would be more for the strategic side of the email marketing rather than the actual system.

I wouldn't want to be responsible for delivery rates. No,

[00:15:27] Nathan Wrigley: no. Quite right. But also I wouldn't be, want to be responsible for the kind of language used, because I'm not particularly good at that. Ah, yeah. But I suppose off the back of this, and the next point on our list is email automation. They do need somebody at that point, because if they are gonna have some sort of funnel, which gets you to a part, they open the email, click on a link, it takes you to a certain landing page, which is designed to achieve a certain goal, and that maybe will send you to another page and so on and so forth.

There's the funnel going on, then they probably will need your help at that point, un, unless of course the platform, the email marketing software can take care of that. But I do feel at some point the destination. Or to be the website, in which case you do need a bit of involvement. Yeah. I

[00:16:10] David Waumsley: also wanted to do that side of it.

Cause that is the strategic side of it. And I've needed to get, for myself tools like Moose End, so I can play around with how those kind of things work, but I've never been able to do this for a client yet. I think, I've introduced the idea that, you could do a lot more than what most of 'em just really either manually send something out once in a while, or they maybe have something that's going on a timer, but nothing that will actually filter out people depending on

[00:16:42] Nathan Wrigley: their actions.

Yeah. I think it's quite a hard thing to explain. Yeah. Because I think most people view email as you, you send it and then people receive it, and that's the end of that. Whereas what we're talking about is, all sorts of clever filters. If they click on a link, send them here and then maybe put them into a different sequence because they clicked on a certain link, or send them a different email if they haven't clicked anything within 24 hours or whatever.

And it all gets very complicated. And the only way to, excuse me to visualize that is these kind of like funnel diagrams and then eventually they get so complicated, it's a spaghetti of lines everywhere and probably the client has thought you know what, , I don't get it. So yeah, an interesting upset.

I totally worth it if you can if you can make hay out of it, it's definitely a worthwhile endeavor trying to persuade clients to do that.

[00:17:35] David Waumsley: Yeah, I think, if you'll convince people of the funnel and all the benefit, I mean I always feel, for me the reason I have an account with a lot more subscribers that I'm allowed, that I could for the client to take the burden off just to try something as an experiment, give them the service for free for a little while to see how it works out.

But still as yet, I've had no takers for this

[00:17:59] Nathan Wrigley: yet. But I think that's a really neat idea. I think you should try that one time and just see how it goes. Cause even if you just let them loose on the software, in your case Moose End and allow them to play with it, maybe some of them will be interested in it.

Maybe some of them will have some benefit come out of it. And if it's not costing you anything, cuz you've already got a lifetime deal. Oh, why not? Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Maybe they'll say, yeah, this is great. We want to use. But

[00:18:27] David Waumsley: it's all the same issues that we have with a website. Getting content off people, you to, to have some kind of system running, you need to have all of the stuff for some periods of time, don't you?

, mapped out. But yeah, I'd love to do that. Okay, next one on our kind hosting area stuff. Domain

[00:18:44] Nathan Wrigley: names. Yeah, I don't really know what my preferred answer to this is. I think I was, I am probably now at the point where I want them to be completely in control of that and I want them to buy it.

I want them to be in charge of it. I want them to have the capacity to shut it down and I log in and do the DNS stuff as required. But yeah, I just think there's too much at stake with me owning a domain name on their behalf. So really, I'm just gonna advise them. Go and get a domain name and tell me what you.

Yeah,

[00:19:20] David Waumsley: that's been my default. I've always , it causes me more trouble than anything because when I've had people leaving, they still think I'm, if, particularly if somebody's taken over a company, this, they still seem to think, because I've got the website, I control their domain name. And I go, no, I purposely said you set it up because I don't want to be involved.

I shouldn't have that monopoly over your business asset like that. It should be yours. So you can go wherever you like. But we had a conversation before about this, so do you think you might have shifted a bit cuz you introduced. That Google did it in a really nice

[00:19:55] Nathan Wrigley: way. Yeah. Google have got a really nice implementation and I've, I have definitely shifted in that I was more than happy to buy people's domains.

But what I liked about the Google offering was that the, you could set them up as a joint owner. I can't remember what the technical language is, but basically both of you have access and the client can be given permission to take control. So if they wish to just be a sort of, if it's a, if they just wish you to be in control and them to have access, that's fine, but the, they can shut you out at some point, which I just think is a really nice implementation.

So long as everybody's ticked all the boxes. You can be buying it for them if they really don't want to get involved in that. And you can be sure that, let's say that you go out of business or you just decide that you don't want to do this kind of work anymore, or you get hit by a bus, you're confident that they can take it over.

So yeah, but the other, the bottom line is I just don't think there's any real money in it. , what is it for a.com now it's like $10, slightly less than $10. What would the markup need to be to, to just, are you gonna charge them a hundred dollars for that? And if so maybe there's something in that, but I imagine most people are fairly savvy these days about what the cost of a domain is, and it's so not difficult to buy.

Yeah, so

[00:21:20] David Waumsley: you can't really increase the, then I was thinking that because Google is a clear example of something which just fits what I'm looking for. Cause I want 'em to have ownership. That's the key thing. And also I want to get around the issues that I have when I don't have the domain names. So if I want to move them to a new service because I haven't put C names to do this initially.

They need to be there to receive their security, check the numbers, so I can't go into their account even if I've got it. So it did seem like it, but there's not really any, maybe that's the way, but there's no upsell to that, I don't think. There's no way of making any extra money cuz they're gonna know how much a Google domain

[00:21:59] Nathan Wrigley: name costs on.

Yeah, you need a domain name and it is a bit awkward trying to get that going. But it's a one time thing, isn't it really? It takes 10 minutes really to do the whole process from start to finish.

[00:22:11] David Waumsley: Yeah. And you don't get to, you don't get to control it as well, how the prices go up.

So you go through a service and. It cost me quite a lot of money. I think for one year it was like $40 or something to really newer.design.

[00:22:23] Nathan Wrigley: Wow. Yeah. In url. Yeah. Some of the top level domains, they really are very expensive. They can be tens of thousands depending on how small it is.

If you, after a two letter, I don't know, wp.com or something like that, it can be very expensive cuz they know that the short ones are really valuable. Anyway, sorry we've dwelled on domain names for too long. We're moving into the next section, which is more to do with, I guess design and creativity.

Yeah.

[00:22:52] David Waumsley: So logo design. Brilliant at that. Aren't we both?

[00:22:56] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. We've got Photoshop or an equivalent, but we dunno how to use even 2% of it. Ha, have I done this? Yes. Am I any good at it? Have people used my logos? Yes. Have I asked them to, swap them out when they found a better one?

Yes. It's not is it an upsell? Completely. It's an upsell. And if you are good at logo design, you should be all over this. Cuz I feel that branding, design, graphic designer, all of that. Wow. To get that right and to be good at implementing it is a proper, legit career. It's just, I'm not very good at it.

[00:23:35] David Waumsley: Yeah. And we might as well read all of these four that we've got grouped together, which is graphic design in photography and video creation. I think. For me, they all fall under the things that I need to know a little bit about. Because I feel if I'm gonna guide someone, I want to have that relationship where we make decisions together about how we're going forward.

And we'll employ somebody if you like, to do the roles. If I can't do them or they can't do them. Yeah. But I feel I need to know them, so I'll do a bit of it, and then in effect, it's an upsell because if they do need being there, I'll charge 'em my time for it. But not as a, an individual service, not as a product.

[00:24:12] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I, my default was always to employ a graphic designer. But in this one particular case that I'm thinking of, they just didn't have the budget for that. And I said I can throw something together for you, but I promise you it's gonna be basic and, we'll just have to cope with that. And, when you're more profitable in the future, I would advise swapping it out.

And so I threw something together. It was, the limits of my graphic design capabilities and it's still there. Yeah. But it's not good. Not proud of it, but you should,

[00:24:44] David Waumsley: but you're being. Yeah, .

[00:24:46] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I go, yeah, I really don't, I really don't have any pretensions at being good at that kind of stuff.

So if you are a, an amazing photographer, a graphic designer, if you're good at creating video, I think they are industries in their own right and rightly and people like me should step away from the computer. .

[00:25:05] David Waumsley: Yeah, I think I've done photography before for my brother because it was the only way to get his site actually up.

Because if you're waiting for him to do it, and also, if you do ask somebody to do their own photography and they don't get somebody in even if they do get somebody in, they might you need to give them a brief about how they do it. So if you wanted an image of them say that you're gonna isolate to put.

The, the hero image there. You need certain things to be there. You need to remove some of the back shadow cuz that person doesn't know who's doing the photography that you'll need to isolate that shadow to get a clear cut and that kind of stuff. So sometimes you know it, I couldn't sell it as a service, as something, say I'm a photographer, but I could sell my time just to move things forward cause I know what I'm looking

[00:25:51] Nathan Wrigley: for.

Yeah, that's the perfect way of describing it. It's more about, look, if I don't do it, we can't launch this thing so I'll just do something quickly and I can throw together a logo but it won't be good. My photography skills, I have put photos on websites that I have taken, but were they great? No, they were just shot with my phone.

That's the limits of the technology that I own. But it was a case of if we don't do it then the website won't ever get launched. And for me launching it was an important moment cuz it's really when I get paid. So it had to happen. So I've definitely done that in the past, but not, I wouldn't recommend myself put it that way.

Yeah,

[00:26:27] David Waumsley: we had a bit of a long chat before about video creation cuz there's all these tools now that allows us to do little things for social media. Like wave, wave.video is their web address for that. And they've lifetime deals were going for those kind of things. But I've done it, I've done it once for a client there, but I now I just think, yeah, there's no upsell in this kind of stuff.

I think cuz everyone can

[00:26:50] Nathan Wrigley: do it. Yeah, I think the skilled requirement has really dropped because the tools are so good. So it's a bit like the email marketing we were talking about earlier. The tools that are available to build those things are now so good. That really somebody with an iPhone could throw together a credible product demo video in a few moments.

Whether or not you're actually speaking to camera and things like that, maybe you need lighting and stuff, so that's a bit more complicated. But if you're just trying to show off your new pair of sandals or whatever it is that you're trying to sell, you can do that really easily. And there's templates for it, it brings real up royalty free music in and all that.

And yeah not.

[00:27:32] David Waumsley: And it seems to me they seem like vanity things. So you can get these wonderful professional templates and you can put your own text in there, but they it's generally advertising and to be honest, if you were doing video creation, the most valuable thing is whether you are actually being able to impart some valuable content to the right audience.

So it will all be strategy really wouldn't it though, rather than the tools,

[00:27:54] Nathan Wrigley: I think. . Okay. So I think we firmly ruled ourselves out as creative .

[00:27:58] David Waumsley: Very good. We've had a, we've had a list which started off as this is taken from a website, we should give them acknowledgement of this. Actually it was Miles web.in and they had 31 items of which we've added a few more to it.

And so far we've only got hosting that week and offer us Yeah, that's right.

[00:28:16] Nathan Wrigley: Interesting. This is probably why we're poor. David . Yes. Yeah. Okay. Next section though is all about content, seo, that kind of thing. Yeah. So

[00:28:26] David Waumsley: yeah, content creation. The first thing,

[00:28:29] Nathan Wrigley: Always for me that for me always fell under the purview of the client.

I would happily fill it in with Lauren. Maybe if I felt really happy and comfortable with the client, I'd put in some boiler plate something which I felt might hit the mic, but it was never an area that I wanted to be in charge of. To me, this was a, I'm building you the website, but I'm gonna put Laura in it so that you can fill it up and you jolly well know that's your job.

Yeah.

[00:28:58] David Waumsley: Yeah. And I feel this falls under what I should be doing as part of the agile approach. If we're working together to some aims to say, has the copy's gonna be really important, so we're going to work together. Align that to fit the website and how we can succinctly get over the right message.

So I don't think I can separate myself from copy being part of the web design process itself. So it's never an

[00:29:26] Nathan Wrigley: upseller as such. Yeah. It's interesting cuz there's loads of tools out there. You think of things like content snare and how many blog posts have you read about getting content out of clients before you even start the project?

Yeah, for me that's a, that's laudable and it would be great, but it never seemed to materialize that way for me. It was more, okay I'll put something in. And send it back to you. And that'll be how we go. And you, your job then is to understand how WordPress works, the page builder, whatever it might be, go in, delete that content and overwrite it with the correct content.

I'd just rather the project was moving forwards than me waiting for a client who couldn't write the content, the copy, whatever it may be, images sent to me on time and all of that. I can put an image in and you can swap it out. That's totally fine by me. I just need to reach that milestone of, I've done my bit and you've now got bits to do.

And I can get paid for what I've already done.

[00:30:23] David Waumsley: Yeah, I used to do that. It was the one day web build idea of I would put law on it and just to move it to get my job done and do it. But I ultimately, it became a bit unsatisfying, which is why I moved more to this agile just thinking, I know how this is gonna go down every time.

, I might as well just bite the bullet and say, we'll work on this. But I think actually to be honest, this article, they put content creation, they might be think thinking of something else because they've also written down as another upsell copywriting for SEO and S SCM purposes. So I would see that as part of what I need to do as part of my build right from the.

The very fact that the first thing I want 'em to do is a bit of a keyword research, right? So clearly I'm going to be a part of trying to influence that copywriting for seo.

[00:31:13] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, you make a good point actually, because the conversation does need to happen early on, doesn't it? About the fact that, yeah, we've got some keyword research, we know where we're going, and the copy that you will ultimately submit needs to be search engine optimization needs to be born in mind, but I don't think it's an impediment to moving the project forward because I think, it's gonna be built on some sort of test domain anyway.

So hopefully Google's not scraping it at this point. It's really the moment it goes live that you ask Google to index it and so on. So they can put that in later. But yeah, you're right. It does need to be born in mind and, but again, I feel a bit like the graphic designer that we talked about earlier, making logos professionally and photographers.

I do feel nowadays the whole SEO thing is there's so much in there that it does feel like the job of a professional. It feels like the kind of thing that if you really want it to be done well, you either make the effort to understand SEO and its current state of affairs, or you pass it on to somebody else, or just make the client aware that you are just gonna do your best and we'll see how it goes.

And they might be happy with that depending on what kind of business they. I agree,

[00:32:26] David Waumsley: but I slightly see it differently. Cause I think, so the list that we're taking from says the, this optimizing webpages, and I've taken that to be, but they might be thinking of performance on page seo, and then they put search engine optimization separately.

Now we could, I could upsell. I think things like adding in schema, firsti I don't know, recipes or something on somebody's site. Somebody wanted that and I, they didn't buy it off me, but I, that would've been an upsell to have added that in. So that worked. And I did it for somebody as a job as well, for they wanted to, and it worked for them.

They needed a jobs page and they were. Provide they, sorry, they were going to another service to advertise their jobs, which didn't even use schema. So it was a real benefit to them to do it. So that's an upsell. But sorry, just to go back to your point about the search engine optimization, I don't know how distinguishable it is for anything else you'd wanna do.

Particularly for me if Agile. A lot of what they talk about is performance these days, cuz that's a ranking factor. On page stuff is stuff that we all perhaps should be doing as part of how we build our sites anyway. And then the rest of it, as far as I can see, would be about getting links and building your authority would need some kind of marketing separately to be able to make links with other

[00:33:48] Nathan Wrigley: companies.

Yeah, and it's also, it feels like it's an ongoing thing, so it fits really neatly into. Agile approach because you're just gonna get data, figure out what's working, tweak it because it's not working in a certain area. Whereas the approach that I've got is just ending in time. It really does feel like, okay, now go and hire an SEO person a bit.

Yeah, so there is a sort of slightly different approach there, but I do think that if you are confident with this, and I am speaking purely because I don't have the confidence with the SEO side of things, I just don't pay attention to it. So I don't really know the state of affairs.

But if you are good at this and you've spent time researching it and you know what's going on, this totally feels like a business. You could absolutely be an SEO person and you may be building websites at the same time. You could just be doing SEO in the same way that you could just be a graphic designer.

But yeah, it's just not something that I'm experienced in. So I, and I know that experience matters, so I keep out of it.

[00:34:50] David Waumsley: I don't, my problem is if I said, oh, an upsell, do you want some search engine optimization? I'm not quite sure what I'd be actually selling, because I think it would get broken down into all the other things that, some of it I would naturally do, and some of it I might charge like the schemos as a sort of separate thing if they wanted that later.

Yeah.

[00:35:08] Nathan Wrigley: So I dunno. And because it's so deep and it changes all the time, and Google are obviously, and let's be honest, it's all about Google. Nobody else really, and Google are changing their product all the time trying to figure out what should rise to the top. I feel that you've really gotta be on top of it, so you've gotta be consuming information about it, following what Google are doing, following their blogs, following, different like Yost as a company or what have you, constantly putting out information about what's changing. And you need to be up to date with all of that. Yeah.

Essential . Yes. Yes. You win that one. Okay. I'll grant you that. Another couple that we've added on here, which I don't know what we think about these, but these I think, are increasingly going to be important. OP sells. Maybe you could argue that these are things that should be just added in already by default, but I think maybe you're gonna get some clients approaching you asking for these kind of things.

The first of them is make the website more accessible than it already is. , I think.

[00:36:13] David Waumsley: Yeah. Should we do Oh, no, do

[00:36:15] Nathan Wrigley: yours next. Okay. Cause they I was just gonna say that I think that, That is now a completely legitimate thing. In the same way that 20 years ago there was no such thing as seo. 10 years ago it feels like nobody was talking about accessibility.

And it feels like now more or less, everybody is talking about accessibility. There's guidance, there's law that needs to be adhered to. And misstepping could in the future cost you financially. You might have a lawyer chasing after you because your website is inaccessible to the users who need it.

And depending on where you are in the world, different constraints and limitations and restrictions that you need to follow. And so I think this is going to be a completely legitimate upsell, whether that's when you're building the website, you are gonna add in extra time in order to create a theme, for example, that is accessible in a certain way or whether or not you're going to be going onto older websites and upgrading them.

I think. This is a really big growth area actually.

[00:37:20] David Waumsley: Yeah, and it's really interesting because it's one of these things where, Huh. A client wouldn't appreciate if you did this just by nature said, I'm a professional creating my webpages. They are gonna be accessible because that's the right way to do it.

And all my alt tags are gonna be thought out. I'm going to describe every image. All of the stuff that you should do is just for some people, the level of professionality that they stay at. And maybe they can, charge enough that the client doesn't need to know. That's just their price.

But for the rest of us, a lot of the time we're stuck If we need to speed up the build process by using a page builder, it might not be outta the box as accessible as we'd like it to be, which would require us to do some extra work more than we'd have to do for the clients. So it is something where you could, I think, conceivably say if you want this level of accessibility and here's the benefits of this it will cost you this extra amount.

Yeah, I think that's,

[00:38:20] Nathan Wrigley: Legit. Yeah, because it will be additional work. This course, this crosses so many sort of boundaries as to whether or not this should be built in. I think it should. I think if you're building a project, you should go out of your way to make it accessible. But I also, I can also fully understand that you might be updating a website or the legislation may change.

It might be that the client has a proclivity for certain things to be done, maybe they want more things adding in than typically are required by law. So there is some scope here but I just think it's a, it's calling it a growth area. Seems a bit crass. But do you know what I mean? It's an area that previously wasn't given as much thought as it should have been.

Now it is. And obviously if you are spending your time doing additional work, I guess you need to be remunerated. . Yeah. One

[00:39:14] David Waumsley: of the things I kind of dislike about the idea of trying to upsell this is again, that it falls into wonderful, we'll talk about this later, security. It's I think the only way that you could convince somebody to be that interested in most people interested in accessibility is to scare them.

What might happen

[00:39:32] Nathan Wrigley: if you're not. Yeah. Yeah. It is a bit of the ambulance chaser thing, isn't it?

[00:39:36] David Waumsley: Yeah. And that's the only bit that I don't like, maybe not, maybe I'm wrong. Be most cynical about.

[00:39:44] Nathan Wrigley: Let me do the last one in this list before we move on to the other categories. The last one in this is, I'm just gonna mention really briefly, and it's only really coming across my radar very recently, and that is the idea of environmentally sustainable websites.

So the idea that you could upsell a finer degree of the control over how much of a carbon footprint your website is making. You take the time to squash the images correctly, you take the time to strip out all of the queries that aren't needed to get the website on the page the minimum of html and so on and so forth.

And I have a feeling that in the future, The environmental impact of websites is gonna become a bit of a hot topic. And I think clients may be coming to us at some point saying, okay, tell us about the footprint of my website and I need to know that it's small. And I would also imagine that some kind of accreditation maybe will come along at some point where you can apply for a environmental badge on your website, which can demonstrate, yep.

If you look at this page, you are consuming far less energy than this other website over here. So I think this is small, but growing, I think, yeah, I

[00:40:58] David Waumsley: really like it and I would've never thought of it. It was a really good ad for you. I've gotta think about this a lot more because I'm moving that direction anyway

yeah, it's

[00:41:07] Nathan Wrigley: I think as an agency owner, If you could make, yeah, you could, this could be a real thing. If you can demonstrate that you are thinking about the environmental concerns. I really think that you could be, you could carve out a niche for yourself, which will in the future, I think grow.

[00:41:27] David Waumsley: I have seen people and I think it's a lot of DIYs where I've seen the question asked, where they're actually asking do you recommend any good green hosting companies I can use?

Yeah. And I thought, yeah, they're, yeah, that's, I

[00:41:41] Nathan Wrigley: don't even know what that means. Yeah. Usually it means that they're either offsetting the carbon that they're consuming or they're using renewable energy to, to power their computers. Yeah. Wind wave, solar, those kind of things.

Course it's hard, isn't it? Because those things, they commonly go, so it's a bit fleeting, but there are companies out there who buy from renewable sources of energy, and I think that's basically what it means. But from our point of view, that could be one part of the puzzle. You shift them over to a quote, air quotes green host, but also you.

You just look at the HTML and see what's being output and if you've got Ds within divs that don't need to be there. Every bit that's crossing the internet is consuming some energy. You know it, there's a direct relationship between browsing the web and the carbon.

That goes out into the environment. So if we can reduce the footprint, we can re reduce the the amount of all of that. Anyway, sorry. I introduced that and said I wouldn't talk about it a lot and five minutes later I'm still talking about it. .

[00:42:46] David Waumsley: No, but I really love it and I think it's, it is definitely, it's the direction I'm going.

That's probably why I love it. So yeah, yeah, trying to make things as clean as possible. Yeah. And I do think of the environment

[00:42:57] Nathan Wrigley: with this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Okay. Then we've got a few here. Another category we could just broadly call it social, things like, yeah. Do you do social media management?

Paper click advertising. So social media management might also encompass things like advertising on the Facebook platform or Instagram or YouTube as well. I. I can say hand on heart, I've never been involved in pretty much any of that. I did paper click, but really quickly realized I am not the person to do that.

No, not for me, but completely legit. Seems like loads of people want to put their products and services onto social platforms. You only have to stare at a YouTube video for five seconds to realize somebody wants to put an ad in front of you. So it's definitely something you could. Yeah,

[00:43:49] David Waumsley: I, I feel, as part of, with the agile kind of strategy and starting with the keyword stuff I feel I have to at least be able to offer to get somebody started with pay per click before I trust.

Yeah. I'd like to keep that with me rather than send them off to somebody else. And because I've lost business with that cuz they take them and say, we'll build your website. So you know, a lot of us Yeah, that's the problem. We have to pass 'em on to our competitors. So I feel I need to do that.

But for the rest of it, certainly the social, here's the interesting thing for me is that the social media management is about the only thing on this list where I think a client has actually asked me, do I do that? And it's the, pretty much the one thing that I wouldn't do, I wouldn't manage somebody's Facebook

[00:44:35] Nathan Wrigley: page for them.

Yeah. I mean it isn't it? Because the broad consensus, I think is that, If you want to be successful, you need to be on social. I'm personally, and I stress the word personally, I'm not convinced more and more. I'm not convinced that, that kind of stuff is the best use of your resources. It maybe it is, I don't know, but but it's, yeah, it's not something I am interested in.

I wouldn't want to go down that road. But definitely there's a career in this and there's an upsell in this. And if you can manage people's social media there, all of that stuff. Cross posting and advertising. Yeah. Go for it. Why not? It,

[00:45:17] David Waumsley: it does feel like it's dyna. Pay per click will probably never die out.

There might be good reasons why you need to, with difficult keywords that you are working for, that might be the best route for you to get people for the website. So I think that still holds as a strong thing if we're, if our service is more than just the website and is about the strategy.

Yeah, I think we get rid of that one. The rest I completely agree.

[00:45:40] Nathan Wrigley: I can't see. The paper click model disappearing. Mind you, having said that, what happened to the Yellow Pages? , all of those people who thought this will never go away. That was a similar idea, advertising a magazine, which drops through your door.

But it does feel like unless there's a seismic shift in technology, paper click's always gonna be there. But yeah, I feel like people are falling out of love with things like Facebook and I don't know, their share price seems to be tanking. Maybe their reach is not as, not what it once was. I'm just not that convinced.

People are beguiled by the idea of let's say you build. Wooden sheds. That's your business. You're a wooden shed builder. How many people are actually gonna want to follow your wooden shed business on social media? I think almost nobody, 10 years ago, it felt like it was all the hotness, oh yeah.

Get yourself on social media. It doesn't matter what business you do. Yeah. Get on social media. But I just think people have evolved, they've understood social media in a different way now, and that they, I don't know, I just feel like there's no legitimate reason to be there anymore as a small business, cuz nobody's really gonna follow you.

That's my thoughts.

[00:46:52] David Waumsley: Yeah. And you mentioned as well how you used to see lots of, white van drivers with their businesses that were gardeners or whatever, they were plumbers, and they would have a big Facebook icon on their name. But you see those disappearing over time

[00:47:07] Nathan Wrigley: now. Yeah. So I was telling you the story that in my local town, so every day, you pass dozens of tradesmen, they're building, their joiners or their plumbers, electricians, whatever.

And there was a real trend to put Facebook logos on there. Like you had a Facebook page to the exclusion of telephone numbers. Like it, it almost became, I think, their channel. So I'm John Smith, I am a plumber. Search for me on Facebook, and then you can get in touch with me on Messenger or whatever. And the telephone numbers were like disappearing off the vans.

And now all of that has changed. The vans where I live, at least, anyway, the phone numbers have come back. The Facebook. Logos have just been wiped out because I think they've worked that out. There's no point in being on Facebook. Yeah. Cause who's gonna connect with you? Who, nobody's there for that reason.

Yeah. There was that

[00:47:58] David Waumsley: in the first place. And then Facebook broke the deal with people because they used to send notifications to all the people who followed you. And then it was selective about who they will send to. And then I think, the only time I've seen it being successful for very small businesses, and I was mentioning a website, which I effectively host, I don't really have that much to do with it.

They're just a small fruit and ve a village and that and they do it really well just because it's one personality talking about what's coming in and it's almost like a big group of friends. So I think it works really well for them. But other, It's, as a general advertiser, most people saw it for when they put up their Facebook pages.

I think it's dead, isn't

[00:48:40] Nathan Wrigley: it? Yeah. That's my gut feeling. I could be wrong. Maybe the metrics are probably will get a comment from somebody who does this further than saying what this is just growing exponentially. Yeah. Anyway, let's move on from the social stuff cause we've got quite a few bits to get through and yeah, we get getting on in time okay.

Branding, right? All of. Okay,

[00:49:02] David Waumsley: Brandon. Just something that I have to do, I think at the beginning, or at least be involved in it, but pass it on to somebody else otherwise. But yes, for the central what's the purpose of your what we trying to communicate with your website? I get involved in it so it's not an upsell for me.

Yep yep. Yeah. They've got strategist for growth. I

[00:49:22] Nathan Wrigley: struck, yeah, I don't even know where to begin with that one because I'm not part of their business. I'm a building a piece of their business for them, the online bit. But I don't know what does that mean? Does that mean growing the business or growing the, the people that are viewing the website.

[00:49:41] David Waumsley: They put national affiliate marketing, so I guess, they, you could offer a service where you say, with your product or something, do you want us to set you up with some system of affiliate marketing So you can do that to try and get more people in. So I suppose there's something to sell in that way as a service, as a upsell and say, I'll be your strategist for growth effectively.

That's why I'm trying to say with the Agile in a way. We'll try and monitor it and see, what the data tells us and see if we can explore things as we go. Landing page.

[00:50:14] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I think this is legit. I know there are people out there who, that's what they do. They do that for a living, they build landing pages and the funnels that go behind them.

So yes. Yeah, I think that's fine. I think maybe the day of it being the hotness, it was all about landing pages. What was that program called? Click Funnels, that thing. Yeah, that was all, the thing wasn't, you don't need a website, you need a landing page. I'm, I think it feels at least anyways, if that's died the death a little bit, and now we're back to webpages and blog posts and things like that.

[00:50:47] David Waumsley: It was, it always went over our heads, didn't it? We I I understand the sense of a landing page sometimes. You might just watch a standalone page for something, but I guess it goes with the other, if you're not accepting the paper, click advertising. To go with that.

If you do that, then it helps to have a landing page one that's optimized so you get the best results if you like, from your ad spend. So I can see

[00:51:15] Nathan Wrigley: that yes you are right, of course. It depends what your motive is. If you are, as you said, trying to get people and justify the amount of money that you're spending on ads and you just want 'em to land at this one page and it's gotta be very effective and no distractions and convert effectively.

Yeah,

[00:51:32] David Waumsley: totally. With all mess message match and all that stuff. So there are, yeah, I think it's in, I guess it's an upsell for me. As I say, I've really got no upsells cuz I've blown it with this approach child

[00:51:43] Nathan Wrigley: approach, which is one large upsell actually, when you think about it.

[00:51:47] David Waumsley: What, yeah, it's ongoing upsell.

But yeah, I would be suggesting landing pages. So yeah, I would use that. And Google Analytics well, That's the next, but for me, again, this is really my tool for upselling .

[00:52:02] Nathan Wrigley: You're using it as a way to show your

[00:52:05] David Waumsley: worth. Yeah, exactly. And why we might need to, we're not getting the traffic for this.

Let's do something on the website, because they're not, they're not taking up this particular service, but they are

[00:52:16] Nathan Wrigley: with others. So you are not, you're not really using it as a way to, to generate revenue from the analytics. You're just using it as a way to generate revenue from the other things that need to be.

Yeah, there are no other

[00:52:29] David Waumsley: upsells, there are the software for WebPress that you could use as an upsell. So all of these things that you put it in and it puts it in your dashboard in a simple form your Google Analytics and sends you client, sends your client an email with a summary every week or month or something.

You could upsell that software. But I've effectively done that for clients. I just

[00:52:53] Nathan Wrigley: haven't sold it to them. . Yeah. For me it was very much approach, the approach of I, I'll basically just make the analytics work on your website, and then it's, yeah, it's up to you. And again, it's a bit like the whole SEO thing.

They're very much married together. They just haven't put the time in to keep up to date with what Google Analytics can do and how the data can be analyzed and, understood. So for me that's over to the client. So I've never really upsold that one. It's more about just I'll take 10 minutes to copy and paste this snippet of JavaScript and make sure it's in the.

You know the website. Yeah. That's really as far as I go with it. Yeah.

[00:53:32] David Waumsley: And I think it would be a difficult upsell as well for the software now as well. Probably spoiler our green credentials if we're trying to keep our site as lightweight as possible. Yeah. By putting the Google Analytics Yeah.

In the site. But then I just don't feel clients go in there anyway, so it's not that useful.

[00:53:47] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. That's the feedback I always got with the clients that I had. Now, obviously there's gonna be exceptions. There's gonna be people that analyze their Google Analytics data effectively, often, and it makes great, they, they make a lot of sense of it.

But for me it was a quick case of, it was every client wanted analytics. But virtually no client ever looked at the analytics to the point where they, they didn't even know how to access it. I'd have installed it. And you go back like a year later, what's the analytics saying? Dunno Never looked.

Okay. Yeah, that's let's move on. Yeah,

[00:54:21] David Waumsley: yeah. As a service to upsell. I was just thinking about that. One of my clients has done a very good job at customizing their own reports in Google Analytics without any extra software. And I think if you've got the skills to do that would be quite a nice service to sell.

Just say, we'll set your analytics up in this way, that'll send you this report and

[00:54:40] Nathan Wrigley: blah, blah, blah. That's an interesting point, isn't it? Cuz an upsell where you are simplifying a already difficult job is I think that really has value, doesn't it? And because Google Analytics is so complicated, if you can make sense of the data then yeah, why not?

That does seem like a reasonable thing. Okay. I think these other ones are probably, we should just rip through them. I think so. So cdn to me, the whole content distribution or delivery network is just a part of the hosting really. I'm expecting that to be dealt with by the managed WordPress hosting company.

C, could you do this? I'm sure if you're very technical, you could, I've never done it. I'm just relying on the host to implement that. And obviously as we said at the top, I'm just sending people to different hosting platforms. Yeah,

[00:55:29] David Waumsley: exactly. I'm not sure how I'd make money on that one when you've got things like cloud fair for free that come to have.

And plus of that I'm move to that with static anyway, so Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:39] Nathan Wrigley: Ssl. Ssl definitely. I upsold that, or at least I tried. But now I think that's just, those days are gone. It's like you have to have it. You can't upsell something, which is a requirement. So once upon a time, that was totally a thing.

You could sell that cuz everybody needed to move over to it and there was work to be done so you could get paid for it. But now no.

[00:56:02] David Waumsley: There's actually one we missed out on this one, which is a potential upsell in the same way that CDN sometimes can be, if you've bought into a service, you say, it can put you on a CDN so you travel further with all of your stuff.

There's also the same sort of thing as been going on with the d G R stuff, so the cookie notifications and the stuff that does all of that kind of work on your privacy policies and stuff. It's another potential upsell we forgot there, but mostly most people doing this are selling an existing deal that they've got, haven't they?

To their clients? They're being the middle man I think.

[00:56:39] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, indeed. Got. Where are we at? My thoughts on this one, it on the list is e-commerce. I'm personally not getting involved in e-commerce ever again as I hope, but I know that for you it's, it has been really good upsell. Oh

It is.

[00:56:59] David Waumsley: I've the same as you really. I tried to avoid it now and I think, going, I think it's almost an upsell that you need to have a plan for. Cuz somebody probably at some point when you've built on the all static site is gonna come up and go, I now want to sell something on the site. Yeah.

So you've gotta have a strategy for that. And I think I have, but I know my limits on this one. Like I won't, it's nothing against. Commerce. It's just that I wouldn't necessarily want to manage a WebPress site and have the responsibility for W Commerce. Yeah. So I'd be seen as that person, so I'd rather send that off to somebody

[00:57:33] Nathan Wrigley: else.

Yeah. You hit the nail on the head there. It's the responsibility side of things. I felt that responsibility deeply when I did do e-commerce and and my impression is that it's probably a lot more straightforward and less stomach churning as it was back when I was doing it. But still I promised myself that I wouldn't do it again, and I've stuck to it so far.

, yeah. And then there's a, then there's a couple here, which are to do with like personnel. So customer service manager or reputation management. Yeah, sure. You could upsell those. I, being a solo person, there's no, I've never done that. I never. Yeah, I guess

[00:58:13] David Waumsley: there will be some people that have got some of those skills and they could bring those in as high res, information for people if you've got their background in that.

But yeah, it's nothing for us, I don't think. And two that are in here that. I think we just come into we haven't even mentioned them. Care plans by nature would be things like our, they've written in the article as cyber defense, but that would be just our WordPress security, wouldn't it? Yeah.

Security. Yeah. Which would do and backups as you added onto that, something that we'd just do as part of a care plan, particularly if we did hosting. Anti-spam protection. Yeah. Again, something I've just done for people, but it's been just a bit of software. Nothing I could

[00:58:53] Nathan Wrigley: upsell. No, exactly. I think the sort of the firewall thing, the fact that there was maybe an ongoing cost to that, whether that's a WordPress plugin or a SaaS product, there is something to be said there, but it always got rolled into my care plan along with backups and potentially hosting and things like that.

They just all got rolled into the the bullet point list of things that were in the care plan. So they were never, backups were never separate. Antivirus was never separate. It was just part of a bundle really. Yeah,

[00:59:25] David Waumsley: so ultimately , the only thing that stood really there was the sort of care plan and hosting wasn't really, that was

[00:59:34] Nathan Wrigley: a very clear what was, yeah, I think most of the things that are gonna appear in the show notes, most of that list, there's obviously there's work there, but whether or not it was something that solo people like me and you we're gonna be able to do is questionable just cuz of the fact that we're busy doing other things.

If you're an SEO expert, of course SEO's an upsell if you are a graphic designer. Of course that's brilliant. But we don't really feel like we fit too well into any of these categories. We're a little bit less how should we say it? We more about building the website, less about all the bits and pieces add.

But also in some

[01:00:11] David Waumsley: ways I think it's probably true that we know something about all of these things and hopefully we know a little bit more than the clients who come to us. So yes. So in some ways we probably do upsell indirectly. That's,

[01:00:25] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, sorry. Sorry to interrupt. I was gonna say, that's the thing, right?

So long as we know a little bit more than the client, then yeah, we potentially could upsell them. But what a long list. Yeah. So

[01:00:38] David Waumsley: that's it. I think we're done. Yes. Next time we talk we'll just be actually, I've changed the title on you. I didn't discuss this with you. I called it replacing software.

I think we should call it Future-proofing. Okay. So it's really the last proper episode we're doing before we sum up on the whole series. Oh, great. So we'll just look about, yeah, it's, I think it's overlooked, isn't it? Future-proofing when you, we just dive in and hope for

[01:01:01] Nathan Wrigley: the best. But yeah, whether or not things come back to bite us a year or two later.

Yeah, that's a good point. Okay. All right, I'll see you in a couple of weeks, okaydoke. Bye. I hope that you enjoyed that. Very nice chatting to my good friend David Walmsley, all about upselling services in this case. If there's anything that you think we missed out, if there's anything you think we got wrong.

All right, head over to WP Builds.com and search for the episode. In this case, you are looking for episode number 307. Search for that and leave as a comment. Another thing to do might be to go to our WP Builds Facebook group. That's WP Builds.com/facebook, and you could leave a comment there, or the Twitter handle is at WP Builds. Or like I said at the top of the show, you could go to Master on WP Builds social Sign up, get an account, and leave a comment there.

The WP Builds podcast was brought to you today by GoDaddy Pro, GoDaddy Pro, the home of manage WordPress hosting that includes free domain SSL and 24 7 support. Bundle that with The Hub by GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients, and get 30% off new purchases. You can find out more at go.me/WPBuilds. And again, sincere thanks for GoDaddy Pro for helping us keep the lights on at WP Builds.

Okay, we will be back next Thursday for a podcast episode. It'll be an interview episode. We'll also be back on Monday for our this week in WordPress show. Hopefully you can join us there, WP Builds.com/live. It's 2:00 PM uk time. Come and leave us a comment. It's very nice when people do, the only thing I've got to say now is I'm gonna fade in some cheesy music and say, stay. Bye bye for now.