149 – Marketing funnels don’t exist!

Discussion – Marketing funnels don’t exist!

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This discussion is about marketing, and it has a very click-bait title! It’s probably safe to say that we are not experts in marketing and certainly not marketing funnels.

Nevertheless we thought we would chat about this and why we might need to get better a digital marketing for ourselves and clients and where WordPress could help with that.

What’s different about this discussion is that really is an introduction to a series of discussions we will have based on a book called Watertight Marketing by Bryony Thomas.

Shout out to Andrew Gould for mentioning this in the WP Build Facebook group. This book is really practical guide to understand where we (or our clients) could be losing business.

Want to get your product or service on our 'viewed quite a lot' Black Friday Page? Fill out the form...

Bryony calls these “leaks” and each leak needs a discussion in its own right.

But before that…

Let’s chat about what marketing we do…

I use word of mouth a lot, that is to say that the majority of my work comes via referrals from people who I’ve already worked with.

I’ve used paid ads a few times and tried to use pixels and funnels. My problems comes with the analysis of the data. I really don’t like to do this and so it’s fun to set all this still up and implement it, but it’s not really my forte to make sense of the data.

Lots of theory over the years. Not that much experience. My first experiments were with our own e-com shop. Some success with a mailing list. I used Blogger and Pinterest. Fails were Facebook and not using the blog well.

I thought it was very exciting but without a conceptual framework I got lost on the minutia. Literally everybody had a “you must be doing this” argument with a different approach and with a different platform.

I suppose being on this podcast and doing YouTube videos is marketing, but is not really focused on a particular result. This has been my year for taking out time to think about the marketing, and packaging up different offerings for different people.

Chat about whether we need to offer digital marketing

We think we do. The perceived value of websites has gone down in a general sense. Offering other graphics and print services was an additional option, but these are also probably less in demand with free stock libraries and easy editing tools which enable clients to do much of this themselves (Canva and Stencil etc.)

Hosting and site care is good ways to keep the wolf from the doors… but to keep clients on them you need to keep offering value and most client needs more digital marketing (even if we don’t know it)!

Chat about whether clients will even understand a marketing offering

Generally I have failed to get client to see the possibilities of digital marketing. I think they know they should be investing, but I don’t have philosophy right. Basically they think it is taking the interruption marketing approach of the age of mass media and applying that to digital platforms.

What I like about the Watertight Marketing book is I think it is a way to explain digital marketing without first having to give a lecture on how they need to think differently.

I have encountered people with niches that are perfect for the web. Gold mines with high and trending search potential. They just needed to make some content, but I have failed to explain how this might be done.

The last one I remember decided to skip the net all together and use print (really expensive brochures – I think).

Listen to this episode and find out more about how we are going to try to shore up our leaky marketing…

Marketing funnel leaking

Mentioned in this episode:

Watertight Marketing by Bryony Thomas.

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Transcript (if available)

These transcripts are created using software, so apologies if there are errors in them.

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Nathan Wrigley: [00:00:00] Welcome to the WP Builds podcast bringing you the latest news from the WordPress Community now welcome your hosts. David warms me and Nathan Wrigley.
Hello there and welcome to this the 149th episode of the wp builds podcast. It's entitled marketing funnels don't exist. It was published on Thursday the 10th of October 20 19. My name is Nathan Wrigley from picture and word dot co dot uk - a small web development agency based in the north of England.
I'll be joined in a few minutes time by David Walmsley from David Warmsley.com so that we can have our discussion episode if you listen frequently, you'll know that we sort of flip and flop between interviews with WordPress people plugin developers and theme developers and so on and then David and I also have chats about our life as WordPress Freelancers.
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Okay, then what are we doing today? Well, David and I are going to be talking about marketing funnels don't exist. I regret to say it is a bit of a click-baity title, but nevertheless it's a good episode. It's really the preamble to a whole bunch of episodes. We haven't really done a series if you like before and this feels like it's going to go on for several weeks when David and I chat we talk about what we've done as agencies in the past.
What have we sold to clients? What have we achieved with marketing funnels? And. On and so forth. There's quite a lot to say in there. It's kind of all based around Davies dicks. David's experiences reading a book called watertight marketing by briony Thomas. And so yeah, we get really into the weeds of what we managed to do in the past and and how really.
If you like the analogy of a funnel is not a suitable as it might be perhaps a colander is small how it should be described. Anyway, you'll find out more in this first of our little mini series. I hope you enjoy it.
David Waumsley: [00:05:01] Today's topic. We're calling marketing funnels don't exist. Then we'll come on to why this is a clickbait title later.
But this discussion is about marketing and Nathan. It's probably safe to say isn't it that we're not experts in marketing
Nathan Wrigley: [00:05:15] No. In fact, I was saying to you before this call was recorded that I think this is one of my least favorite things not only because there are aspects of it that make me feel a little bit uncomfortable and what I mean by that is I'm not very good at it.
And so it causes. Discomfort in me but there's also aspects of marketing that ever since even as a little child. I was a bit of verse to being advertised at and so I kind of have a bit of empathy for for it when I when I try to deploy marketing if you know to mean and so there's all sorts of baggage.
So yes, I would entirely agree not very good. Yes.
David Waumsley: [00:05:54] But that's maybe the well, it's the reason certainly I want to talk about this because I kind of need to do it. I don't think I'm going to have a business if I don't do a bit more marketing and do better but also we also so it will discuss about in this episode is is really whether we need to be in our business of making websites for clients.
Do we need to be learning more of digital marketing and offering those services to clients? So but can I just say this is really come out of a book so probably. The next episodes we talked about the next discussions we have will be base kind of roughly around the book called watertight marketing by Bryan Lee Thomas who's from the UK and can I just say a thanks to Andrew gold who mentioned this in the wp builds Facebook group because he said this is a really good practical and pragmatic guide to anybody who needs to get into marketing.
So anyway, but I think we're probably get on to a discussion and will mention what this book is about. And why it gives us some topics to talk about for later episode before we cracking to it you being the the person has brought this to my attention. How how long is this book? Is it like a big weighty read or is it a fairly quick light overview that well, I got it on Kindle but it's and it's pretty light is really easy to understand Nathan. That's a great thing that you ought to send people to on the lawn when you actually put this. Article out because there's a video which I think probably is about maybe 20 minutes, which is the author talking about the main crux of the book. Okay, so she has she has this kind of will move onto it which is why we get into the funnels.
But if you watch that you'll really understand what the books mostly about and it's padding out this basic concept. So it's a nice framework for I think for anyone.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:07:40] Okay, that's good to know. So watertight marketing by Bryony Thomas go maybe check that out. Into this first. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know just so it's still a discussion.
David Waumsley: [00:07:53] Shall we just talk a little bit about the marketing that we've done our experience so far? Yeah. Well actually if you go first and I'll follow on afterwards tell us about your tell us about your marketing endeavors. Well, there's not much to talk about so I mean I've been interested in this for long time because I know you know just digital marketing just been interested in the web and what you could do and how I could get freedom from my job, you know, all of that comes from there, but you know really it's very limited.
We had a little small e-commerce shop. That was my first taste of doing a business outside of my job. And I did some stuff with that but I didn't know what I was doing. So we have a bit of success with creating a mailing list. So everybody bought from us, we made sure that we got them on the mailing lists automatically and we sent out stuff when there was offers that really worked for our business and I could have easily missed that and we did a little bit of blog in which.
I understood SEO and or least the basics of it and I had some success acute a few articles. I wrote drove most of our traffic to our site. But but then I completely blew it because I had I got the traffic there but I didn't link it to our products, you know, somebody read the article and then disappeared us they do so.
Yeah, so lots of attempts at things, you know early Facebook pages. They were complete fail a little bit on Twitter. We were talking about that earlier and it didn't work. It's too time-consuming. So that's about it. Really and I guess for me. Even though it's not intended to be marketing. You know what we're doing now and also the videos that I do on YouTube I guess is some marketing at least for me.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:09:34] Yeah, I'd like a personal marketing. If not the the business itself. Yeah. My story is very similar to you in that is areas that I've dabbled in firstly in primarily to promote the web. Design business, you know get clients through the door to build them websites. So I've tried all sorts of things exactly like you I took the approach of putting some blog posts together and then I did actually link those up to some marketing materials my failures in this sphere came largely because I didn't give enough thought to who I was marketing to and so I wrote a blog posts about things that I was interested in.
So let's say for example, In the days when I was using Drupal, I wrote quite a few articles on how to achieve particular things in Drupal thinking that that would be you know exactly what people would need to know where of course it's exactly the opposite. What they needed to know was how to use the Drupal website not how to build the Drupal website.
So I made a few errors there and I adjusted that and modified it a little bit so that it was more to do. You know achieving a goal that some novice website owner would want to achieve but then the the automations that I had I used a service. I don't actually use it anymore. Although I know that lots and lots of people still do I set up?
Active campaign and had drip sequences. So there was like a lead magnet and would you would sort of ping them a week later and suggest something else to read and then depending on what they did they would suggest something else and so on my failure in that regard is that I just never spent the time following up to see where people had dropped out of that sequence and I even set it up so that when somebody had got through the entire sequence, which was I think there's about five steps involved, you know you had to do.
Like five different things and respond to emails and whatnot. So, you know, they demonstrate quite a lot of commitment and yet I would get the final email coming through saying okay such and such a person has finished this sequence and I even wrote in the email you should go and contact them now independently and eccentric cetera, and I just didn't do it.
Just never did that. That's where I've failed in the past. I just got tied up with regular work and then I've done things like Google ads. And again my failing is all to do with the analysis of it. The setting up of the ads is the fun part for me all the technology. How do you do this? How is it achieved but I can never be bothered like Google analytics.
I'm just not that interested in looking at it. So that's that's where my failings have been my successes. Have all been to do with word-of-mouth. I've been very lucky in that. I live in a fairly small community in the part of England where I live and friends of friends and Friends of colleagues have recommended me to build their websites and that's been a really self-sustaining thing.
And I presume that the fact that that worked out for me has largely been why I've been able to be so dismissive or non. What's the word not not really making enough effort with following up the. X and the other things because the work has has continued to come in and then like you said things like the podcast has taught me a lot of things about more recently using Twitter using an email or not an autoresponder, you know an email sending piece of software sending out emails on regular regular occasions and also things like doing YouTube live and YouTube videos and Facebook group having a Facebook group has been very very beneficial.
But this WP builds Community is not really I don't really see that too much as marketing. Although it obviously in like you said it is I'm just enjoying it a bit more that I am marketing to it.
Yeah. Well,
David Waumsley: [00:13:22] I think that's the idea. I mean, that's the problem, isn't it? We we have a bit of a hang up on what marketing is, you know, we think it's.
Dinner selling at people where really it's just it should be done why it should be bringing useful stuff that you have two people who might need it.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:13:37] Yes. Yeah. I very much think that I have a hang-up with that. I do. I like I said, I always have said this before I'm sure on the podcast I do ever since I was a child.
I had a bit of a hang-up with being advertised to I I resented the adverts interrupting my television. I resented the adverts getting in the way of me listening to my radio and became. Cynical to the point where you know, they'd be an advert for like some sort of beauty cream on the Telly and my parents would have to shock me up because I'd be shouting.
It doesn't work. It doesn't do that. It's not real. It's not true. And I need to go I need to get over these Hang-Ups, but also and what no doubt we'll touch on this a little bit later. I do think that some people are. Not necessarily born but some people are able to cope with the marketing aspects better than others so I can think of a handful of people who are in my book kind of born advertisers.
They have the right patter. They don't feel a sense of what's the word. I don't want to use the word shame, but you know that reluctance to talk about something whereas I do experience that so I do think there's a little bit of Sociology going on for want of a better word.
David Waumsley: [00:14:48] Yeah, that is definitely something cultural there. I think you know, the Americans are much more open to that that just you know, yeah can talks kind of freely where we Brits feel like we have to hold personas are based around what we really are these people who just don't like to go to put ourselves out there and so we know stuff but we clearly do.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:15:07] Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. So there's a there's a lot of baggage. We've tried a lot of stuff we've had successes and we've had failures and I would imagine that's the case for most. People listening whether or not you consider yourself a marketing expert. I'm sure there's things that you've tried that have been remarkably successful equally probably things that you've tried where you thought right?
Okay regroup. Yeah and actually in my case, there's quite a lot of things that I've just literally forgotten about you know, things like the AdWords would would have ticked over for months on end with me not fiddling with them simply because I forgot what I'd set up.
David Waumsley: [00:15:41] Yeah, you know I had a little mean obviously the some free ads all was always available. I don't know if that's still the case but I was always presented with the old 50 Quid I could use and I use them but you know, the thing is I just really didn't understand at that time that the importance of message match and having a landing page that. Key to the message. I was putting in the Google ad so we're just dumping people on the homepage and you know hoping the best.
Yeah, I think that's that is true of me as well. Absolutely just link up the advert to something that you've already built not not create a funnel which is specific to what it is that you're trying to trying to Peddle. What do you know about this morning? Just before we started talking. I've just sent out. My actually my second outbound marketing campaign ever.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:16:31] Yeah, and if yeah, well I have you had any sort of epiphanies during the process of setting these up.
David Waumsley: [00:16:38] Yeah. Well, I stuffed. I mean I sent it out to four people who I thought were potential leads for us and I stuffed it up with the wrong lead outside the wrong link in the email so I was a complete disaster. But anyway, I'm waiting to see what happens because we've got a list of people that we think might want this particular service, which I'm going to talk about. She's kind of hidden from our sight and I'm just going to see how that goes because I've never done this before but it's set up properly.
It's I'm using mail shake so it's monitoring what's going out and it's set to to send off a chain of emails and we've. Pixel set up as well to you know, if they do go and click on the link should be able to sort of be able to do Facebook advertising so - yeah. Yeah. Yeah retargeting. So anyway, yeah, that's light off point here really, but yeah, I'm starting with my digital marketing proper now, okay.
Hmm. So should we just talk? Because the other thing about this is it's not just the the other side of it. The reason why I'm interested is not only do I need to get some more clients. So I need to pull my socks up. But also I think and I don't know if you agree. I need to start selling more this kind of digital marketing services to clients, even though I don't really know what I'm doing myself.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:17:59] Yeah, what what specifically are you thinking about when you say digital marketing stuff? What's on your her? What you thinking that you might try to sell in addition to the the obvious website build?
David Waumsley: [00:18:12] Yeah. Well what you do not there was somebody who has brought in somebody to do in the end Google AdWords client, but they didn't realize and maybe it's because they came through my colleague rather than through me directly, but they didn't know that I might be able to help them with their SEO and I could and I started helping but I've realized this about.
Other people they just don't know that they have these digital marketing needs but they just don't know I do them. So I haven't got a package to offer them. Okay. So SEO being one of the things that you can add on as a bit of an extra. Yeah as an ongoing cost. But in their case it that it was more than just SEO, you know the best approach for that particular business was to have some blogging some content marketing and a bit of research that went into what articles they needed to produce cuz that's probably the best thing for their business.
So there are just all of these things that I feel I need to do more of these Advanced digital marketing techniques which links it to this book because it gives you a kind of framework to be able to explain to. Businesses where they could be linking sigh Deacon potential business. So yeah, so I think there's a digital marketing solution for every sort of area where you could lose potential customer and I'd like to fill that and offer it as a package.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:19:35] So SEO being one example, have you got any others that you that you might like to kind of plug the leak if you like?
David Waumsley: [00:19:41] Yeah, well all of the so the conversion rate optimization cro stuff that's stuff that I really haven't done. So, you know just measuring how well sites are actually converting, you know, so looking a little bit of heat Maps doing some A/B Testing all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, it's tough time. I really haven't been doing how the any of but I feel that this is something I need to be selling to clients because I think that's the way forward isn't it? I think you know, there's only so much traffic you can get for someone if and it's pointless a particular if you're paying for that traffic if you're not converting those people so I need to present packages like that so
Do you feel
Nathan Wrigley: [00:20:22] that you have the the skills already at your fingertips to to demonstrate the ability to I don't know. Interpret the data that's coming in. Let's say from Google analytics or a heat map tool. Do you do you already think you've got that or is that something you need to you need to acquire the skills?
David Waumsley: [00:20:41] Yeah, I'm gonna have to acquire the skills. I mean, I'm gonna you know, I mean partly why I'm doing my own marketing at moments to see, you know to learn from those mistakes so I can pass this on to clients and for me it's going to have to be because I charge Logic for my time.
You know, I I'm not going to be tender and the expert in any of these things that just that hopefully, you know, I'd look up to their website in the hosting little trust me to do these kind of things for them, but. You know, I just think it's the way forward with stuff because I think it's going to be harder to get let's put it like this.
The reason why I think we should do that. Is that the way to sort of boost your income previously as somebody built websites used to be to go into perhaps print, you know and do that kind of stuff and I think that's another thing which is getting too easy. Anybody now can go and use a tool like.
Get stencil or canvas and start creating their own work clients can start doing that in the same as the Kenwood website. So I feel looking to the Future. The one thing that they perhaps can't do is to have someone help them to understand what tools are available to so they can do more digital marketing and get more out of the website that they've already got.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:21:53] Mmm in the in the past the things that I've managed to successfully. Deploy to clients things that I managed to persuade them would be a good idea to use is email marketing. I've provided the infrastructure whether that's linking them up with like something like, you know setting up MailChimp and actually configuring the emails, you know, they may say to me. Okay, we'd like to do a 12 12 months sequence of emails about our latest range of TAPS.
For example, I did want to know. And then at the beginning of the year, they just sent me the plain text and some images and kind of said okay get on with it and I would then use their MailChimp or whatever account was available and put those together. So, you know configure the images you select fonts and that kind of thing and make it so that it was all being sent out correctly and so on.
I've then offered kind of SEO Services now, I believe that the real SEO devotees have got themselves a really good Niche because. I think it's okay. I think it's okay for people like me to be reasonable at SEO but I do think if you are really wanting to be a hard hitter and really Niche down than I think it I think from my perspective.
I would feel a bit disingenuous trying to sell myself as a serious SEO person. So I'll know I've done that in the past. It's it's usually around like basic keyword research and the basic optimization on the site using a variety of Wordpress plugins to achieve. Yeah, so it's basically has been things like emails SEO.
I've run Google analytics campaigns for people before but simply setting them up and just letting them go but not following up with their with the analytics of any of that and then I've also what else have I done? Oh and then I've actually, you know gone to the point of creating blog images for clients as well when they you know, that's just their able to write the copy, but they just can't put together an imagery.
Is it up of this light? You said lots of these little online tools which make that a breeze but the clients in themselves haven't really wanted to get involved with that. So there's actually quite a lick quite a list now that I look at it. Yes, I've offered in addition to the WordPress website. But but it's not something that I've like you said you haven't really package that up and made it into a cohesive offering with tick boxes.
Okay, you want this package? You'll get these three things you want this package you get these two things and it will cost this a month haven't done any of that. It's been very much, you know, identifying a need either because they've reached out to me as the web guy. You know their technology in person or because I it's been pretty obvious that they wanted to do something like this.
And so I've suggested it to them, but I haven't had a campaign of packaging and top and I think that would have been a clever thing to have done in the past.
David Waumsley: [00:24:42] Yeah, you know, I don't think this is my theory. I mean most of the people are going for it'll be different from other people are listening to this, but I'm going for a fairly sort of local businesses small budgets and and I need is some ways. I think I would do better to kind of SEO Services than somebody is not that they can afford them anyway, but you know the than some real experts there because it's just knowing them and the context of their business and that's what I want to do more of understand. Help them through a journey in the same way that I went through a journey trying to get our e-commerce shop going so, you know, you learn things and I just want to be the person who says look this stuff going around we can try this and sometimes it's more important.
I think to have a sort of. Basic understanding of what they're really trying to achieve than it is to be able to be an expert in a particular thing. So yeah.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:25:34] I also believe that there's a certain satisfaction not not only from you know working with the same people over and over again, which can be really nice, you know, obviously on the assumption that you get along and everything's Equitable that is that is very nice that that feeling that you've really from start to finish.
You can map the change in somebody's business. That's a that's a really nice thing to be able to do. But also it it does kind of it provides less churn. You don't need to keep constantly looking for the next website project because you've got other things going on in the background, you know, should you have a web project which is urgent to finish the.
You can get on with that. But you know, if you've got a whole package of things going on in your down time, you've got things that you can be getting on with, you know, setting up these email sequences making sure that their woocommerce setup is configured properly and so on and so forth and I think that's a nice to keep the wolf from the door.
David Waumsley: [00:26:31] Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know the thing is I feel with the clients that I get because I failed in being able to present some because a package that might be of interest to them. It's not like somebody else is going to get that business because they're not going to go and necessarily go and find SEO expert or somebody will do their content.
They wouldn't really know how to start in the same way. They didn't know how to start to find a web designer. Yeah, so that you know that they're never going to spend that money unless it's with me unless I put. Together, you know.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:27:00] Yeah, I suppose it. It comes to the old adage about leaving money on the table the yes in my case.
I've been very very willing to just go from project in the way that I've just described I shouldn't do I've done that so many times, you know, I finish a project and I'm already lined up the next one. So I immediately Beaver on with that and to a great extent forget about the project that I finished and then finish that one and because I.
I'm quite good at concentrating on one thing at a time, but I'm not very good at concentrating on multiple things. So that's been that's been my my downfall. I think I should have probably done that a lot more.
David Waumsley: [00:27:41] Have you been in the situation where you you think you might have a great plan for clouds and if you get involved in this but you just they just don't get it.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:27:51] Yes all the time. In fact, I think that's one of the one of the the things that I'm quite good at the beginning. I'm all over the project and I'm thinking okay I can do this and we can do that and we can do this and then like I just described more often than not it will end up me just building the website and then be so happy to just get that one out the door move on to the next one because I'm getting heat from this client over here because they're paid the deposit and I haven't started. Yes. I think there's a little truth.
David Waumsley: [00:28:22] I think certainly when I first started, you know, I just it's still in me. I still enjoy this work not for the money mainly but just for the pleasure and the hope that you'll see what can be achieved online.
So I get behind their businesses more than they necessarily want me to to be involved in it and it's been really frustrating because I just think oh they want to do something just like there's so many digital marketing opportunities. Yeah one guy one guy came and I can't. What it was exactly but he had this perfect Niche and he was talking to my colleague and in the end he decided I don't know actually she did it, but he decided that it was going to make these really expensive brochures which was going to send out to other people in the industry.
But seriously, if he just did some content on the niche that he had given that there was such a. Rate of desire for thing that he wanted online at the time and I failed to be able to put this over. I just thought oh, you've got gold here. Yeah use digital root, but it. Failed I failed.
I think it comes down
Nathan Wrigley: [00:29:25] to process and I didn't have the process. My process was all about the get on board and clients to build a website making sure that I had, you know got all of the information out of them so that I could successfully build the website build the website ship the website move on where I really needed the process the package if you like all of this stuff productized commoditized before the whole process of on.
Clients began and I just never did, you know, so alongside the website will go all the other things and the messaging right from the start is okay. Our website is a key component of what you need, but it's 50% of best. You also need to be thinking about your email strategy. We need to be thinking about your analytics.
We need to be thinking about tracking visitors that are coming, you know the list that we've just gone through but I never did it was I was always focused on the website and I think that that messaging needs to. For me.
David Waumsley: [00:30:24] Yeah, absolutely and do it. I mean our friend Paul Lacey. I mean, I just saw he did a Chat. I didn't even know he was into this personalization, which is I think something that we're all of us are going to be employing more and I think when clients go and look at the competitor sites, you know other sites. They believe what they're seeing is their site. They probably have no clue that they've gone to a particular landing page.
That's two for their query or that the message. They're seeing all the content. They're seeing is actually been designed for their Journey, you know.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:30:57] Just to be just to be clear you're talking about in some way modifying the content of the site via plugins like if so, or what's it called logic hop things like that in order to to display content, which you.
No is specific to them, but they clearly won't know is specific to them and thereby really drill down into what it is that you've been trying to persuade them off.
David Waumsley: [00:31:21] Yeah, so it's like this is this is why I think you know if we're building websites for people websites are no longer just the static things that everybody sees the same thing gradually.
We're going to be more into this giving the right message to the right person at the right time is going to be the philosophy for all of our website. So I think personalization is going to come into it more and landing pages more. Yeah, and I failed always to explain this to a client.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:31:48] Yeah, do you just on slightly a side note to this. Do you feel that there's enough time in your in your week to to be the master of all these things. So just as an example, the let's say Google analytics or email marketing just as two examples of the top of my head is the time for you to become good at that as well as to be good at somebody keeping up with the latest developments in website and website design and.
David Waumsley: [00:32:18] Yeah, I know what you're saying and probably not. I mean the way I look at it and why I'm interested in it's because I think there's a limited number of clients who will be able to get involved in certain things. And that many of them won't need to should local businesses who local trade. I mean, it would just be a big plus if I can convince them to get one review on Google on the business page, you know, and that's probably all I need to do in terms of their did the in marketing.
You know the number of people that need to get but then there are going to be clients. I think I need to be prepared for them who will just through their Journey realized that they need more and more and I need to learn that as it appears, you know.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:32:54] Yeah, I think I think having the having the message at the beginning that this is something that you prove not only that you provide but you thoroughly recommend. There's no reason and of course we're talking about this is in the as if you should be doing this all yourself and that's not necessarily the case, you know, if you've yeah, if you found a trusted partner that can take on the SEO stuff all crates get them to do the SEO stuff. And if you found a trusted partner who's expert with email sequences and all of that kind of stuff great.
That's that's something that that you could easily handle and. My mistake as I've said in the past has just been if I can't do it. I probably won't mention it and that's how it's always been.
David Waumsley: [00:33:33] Yeah, do you not think as well it's going to go, you know, a lot of things seem really complex. So cro stuff, you know, all of that kind of stuff and using those tools seems really complex, but I just think it's a bit like how many people you know, they don't need us for building a website, you know, simple website these days that because the technology has become more simple and I think that's the way it's going to go with digital marketing.
So I still think. Because there's a need for me to understand all of the possibilities at least on some level that are out there.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:34:05] Yeah, I think having an understanding that they exist is crucial and I would say that both of us because we're in all these Facebook groups and we talked about technology a lot.
We're probably more aware of it and I'm sure our listeners. It's the same but probably more aware of it than we know. We know that these things exist. It doesn't mean that we necessarily are expert at it, but we probably know that these exist and that these things are on the horizon. I would have imagined so because everything that we've mentioned so far, I understand what it is.
Even if I couldn't necessarily deploy it as well as somebody else. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
David Waumsley: [00:34:38] Yeah, I like you know, I feel I mean it's so seem slightly arrogant to want to take on all these different things but in a way it feels like it fits my personality so that the fact that was interesting did a psychology degree.
It seems to be that most of these kind of thing things are based around psychology and the ability to understand some statistics again something that I worked in as well. So these two kind of core skills, even if I might not know the stuff is probably why. It's attractive to me.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:35:06] Yeah, just a complete aside or any of these digital marketing things that you might otherwise cell apart from websites of any of those ever interested you enough that you thought well, I'd like to do this for a living as opposed to building websites. I'd like to really focus in on email marketing or something. Give it kind of ponder that.
David Waumsley: [00:35:28] Haven't you know I I think we're both generalists were too interested by everything. Yeah, so we're not going to know stuff really in-depth way, but I think that's you and I isn't it were both like that with yeah.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:35:40] Yeah, I'd rather try my hand at lots of things than be super good at one thing which is exactly the opposite of I think of what makes a great success.
David Waumsley: [00:35:52] Oh God, but you know what? The other thing is why I'm it seems a passionate the. But to get involved in this because I think it will make the work more interesting than just building a website and I feel the devalued as well.
You know, the skills in building a website. I think if you can get closer to delivering something or get them excited by the idea of measuring improvements on their websites and their strategies. I think that would be such an exciting place to be hmm in your work.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:36:20] What's your what's your impression of you know previous clients that say the last 10 or something like that. Where have you managed to get them excited or have you found that essentially you are a you are a tool to building a website and that's kind of where they want your relationship to end. They're not they're not you don't want to have the conversation by email marketing. They just wanted to build the website because they had a few thousand pounds allocated to it that needed to be spent and it was on their desk to do it.
David Waumsley: [00:36:45] Yes, but it's the latter of those. That's what's really happening. But that has those be some seeds of because I think you know, we've talked about this before the more communication.
I've had with videos talking about things about their website and just throwing in a little bits and pieces a couple of people have perceived me differently and I though a little bit more open. I just need to get better at and the whole reason why I want to bore all of our listeners and talk about this because it will just help me.
I kind of think about how I'm going to package all of these things to sell to clients and do it better for myself. So you're doing this for wholly selfish reasons. Absolutely.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:37:24] Everybody stop listening now. It's interesting though. I've struggled enormously to get people interested largely. It feels very much that the person I'm talking to has a requirement for a website and that's all well and good.
You know, I've I have said already that I'm not very good at offering these things, but it always felt a little bit like it was a stretch. They just wanted it finished very quickly. Come on. Let's let's get it done. Let's hand it over. Let's pay the bill. But I'm going to have to be a little bit more forthright about trying these trying to sell these other things and seeing if I can Peak their interest and as you say things like I'm interested by your little video thing that you just mentioned because my conversation is generally happen on the telephone and then you know, the typical email that that kind of thing but mostly mostly on the telephone or on Skype or something.
Do you do encourage people to? To to you know to change their mind about these services. Do you make them bespoke little videos or is it just a general video that you make that you send out?
David Waumsley: [00:38:24] All right. Okay. I'm not really that doing any sort of marketing of that. I'm talking really when I'm building the site it just touch with the video while you're talking about it just allows you because you've got an audience for a wild you can throw in a few things about what they might want to consider doing for dinner a little bit more than just the you know, I've got your brief and we're going to follow this through but then that's my model.
Isn't it? My model what excites me what I've learnt really is. I kind of want to work long term when the number of people I like to improve their business and do their websites and be trusted. I think it's harder. If you're paid a big sum for a project by a bigger company to get that personal relationship because they like to sort of put things out for tender and shop around for different components of things they need so I think. That's probably harder.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:39:14] Yeah, and also it may be that the company is divided up into certain sections of which perhaps you know marketing is very much separated from the website and it might be that you know, that that's the job of the publishing department or something like that. You know, it's hard hard to know really.
David Waumsley: [00:39:32] Yeah should we talk a little bit because this is an introduction really to the other topics were talking about so. This isn't really going to be a series but this book Water type marketing gives us. Kind of at least 13 wonderful topics to talk about which would probably talk about on their own and it's because and I guess this is will be hard to explain you'd probably need to go and look at the diagram Nathan. Maybe you'll add that to the Post Yeah and the video but she has this basic concept so back to the why funnels don't exist. So she takes the analogy of the the funnel and said, well, that's not it's not really a good one for. In how we get a sales because you know when she puts water in the top of the funnel everything comes out the other end and in truth, you know, really we leak at different points in a potential customers Journey.
There are different areas where we could lose them and that's what she attends. To do when she's got 13 kind of different areas where we would lose business so they could be nice little topics for us, which we think will go onto.
We'll come
Nathan Wrigley: [00:40:47] onto those in there in the days and weeks to come I will just explain in case somebody doesn't see the picture this this picture that she's got she's got a funnel a funnel as you would expect with water going in the top and it's a perfectly formed van. All the water goes in the top and then it comes it comes. Out the bottom all intact the same amount goes in the top as comes out the bottom exactly as a funnel should behave and of course, that's not how it happens.
You know for every person that goes in the funnel or proportion of them fall out at some point along the journey no matter how simple or complex that funnel is so next to it. She's put a series of much smaller funnels and they're not perfectly straight. Some of them are tipping up it John T angles.
So some of the water is slopping over the side at the top. And then water that's coming out. The bottom is sometimes just missing the funnel beneath it. So it's ending ending up in the Dustbin if you like. So it's a much more untidy picture. It's not everything that goes in the top comes out the bottom a small proportion of what is entered in the multiple taps at the top finally gets to its destination.
Whereas most of the water ends up on the floor at various points in its Journey.
David Waumsley: [00:41:57] Yeah, that's just got wonderful diagram which again uses the funnel even though she says it's more like a colinder but you know, and what she tries to do is to explain how people might go through various stages before they go on to buy a product and that takes over time unless it's just an Impulse buy and that's what most of us are selling.
So all of these different areas where we can lose people and she starts right at the bottom and this is just a good chat for our next chat, which is about forgotten customers you starts with that. So starts with what you already have and then works out to the more Global stuff in sort of 13 different leak areas.
So, you know the wider thing about getting known or being ever present if you like online or anywhere really so she works through these and I just think this is a fabulous way of us having a conversation because we can look at it for our own businesses each one of these in turn what we might potentially be able to sell to clients with each of these if they can see that's a leak for them and also, How WordPress you might come into helping us with this?
Nathan Wrigley: [00:42:59] Okay. So essentially this this particular podcast is a bit of an introduction to a variety of podcasts that we're going to record in the days and weeks to come all talking about ways that the funnel might be leaky and how at least in the case of this author. It can be that can be shored up a little bit and made to be Leslie key.
Yeah, and hopefully this won't be boring because hate the idea is really long series. But this this is just the same chats with have about using Wordpress. Anyway, and you just dealing with our job so just keeps us handy headlines. I think perfect. So in the like we said stay tuned will be more episodes of this in me in the weeks to come.
All right. Should we should we knock on the head for this week indeed, but why? Well, I hope that you enjoyed that like I said, this is going to be the first in a miniseries. We're not entirely sure how many episodes it's going to take up because we haven't given it enough thought just yet. But this is the very beginnings of that process.
I apologize for the click baity title. And I hope that you found something useful out of it. It was quite nice just explaining to David all the things that I've done in the past and all the things that he's done in the past and what we found works and what we found didn't work. So yeah more is in store stay tuned.
The WP Builds podcast was brought to you today by WP and UP one in four of us will be directly affected by mental health related illness wpn up supports and promotes positive mental health within the WordPress Community. This is achieved through mentorship events training and counseling. Please help enable WP and UP by visiting WP and UP dot org /give.
Okay. I hope that you can join us next Thursday for the for another podcast. If not, perhaps you can join us on Monday when I'll be releasing my WP Builds summation of the WordPress weekly news for the previous week. And then of course to p.m. UK time we'll do our live episode and I'd really appreciate it.
If you if you join us and make some comments. Anyway, I'm going to fade in some cheesy music and say bye for now.

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Nathan Wrigley
Nathan Wrigley

Nathan writes posts and creates audio about WordPress on WP Builds and WP Tavern. He can also be found in the WP Builds Facebook group, and on Mastodon at wpbuilds.social. Feel free to donate to WP Builds to keep the lights on as well!

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