This Week in WordPress #386

[00:00:03] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this week in WordPress, episode number 386 entitled PHP and AI.

It was recorded on Monday, the 26th of October, 2026. My name's Nathan Wrigley, and today I'm joined by Michelle Frechette and Dave Grey and by Ivana Ćirković.

We talk a lot about AI Towards the end, we talk about it in terms of the vulnerability in PHP, which was plaguing everybody last week, but also about the fact that it now seems that AI, in an MCP way, is going to be landing in WordPress core in 7.3.

We also talk a lot about other bits and pieces as well. So the WordPress Contributor Toolkit gets a mention.

WordPress credits and the fact that they've now got sponsorship tiers. Accessibility. The state of contributing in WordPress, ways of hosting your site for free on CloudFlare Static and various other ways. And a few plugins, which we bring to people's attention as well.

And it's all coming up next on this week in WordPress.

Hello, hello. Nice to have you with us. Hello. episode 386. I know number seems bigger every week. Oh, that's 'cause it is, 3 86 of this week in WordPress. We're here for about, I don't know, usually it goes on for about 90 minutes, something like that. And we're gonna talk about word pressy things.

in order to make that happen, I'm joined each week by a, a panel of fabulous people who give up their time, very graciously, I must say. So big thank you to them. let's go round the houses and say hello, and then I'll do a little bit of housekeeping. first stop. Down there. Over there. We've got Michelle Frache.

How you doing, Michelle?

[00:01:52] Michelle Frechette: I am well, thank you. How are you?

[00:01:54] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, good, No, no COVID or anything this week, so thank

[00:01:59] Michelle Frechette: goodness.

[00:01:59] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I've been a lot more human. Michelle Frache is the executive director of Post Status, and in addition to the work over there, she is also the podcast barista at WP Coffee Talk.

Co-founder of Underrepresented in Tech, WP Speakers, WP Career Pages and sponsor me wp. She also runs Speed Network online and writes things. So is an author, influencer and frequent organiser and speaker at WordPress and tech events living outside of Rochester, New York. She likes to take pictures of nature and if you want URLs to sum up the whole thing, meet Michelle Online is probably the best one.

Thank you for joining us once again. Oh, you've got rid of the, the blurry background. That was an Apple thing. I did all the guitars were blurred?

[00:02:48] Michelle Frechette: No, it was a camera thing.

[00:02:50] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, it was a camera thing? Okay.

[00:02:52] Michelle Frechette: yeah, so I had to go into my camera and fix things.

[00:02:55] Nathan Wrigley: also Michelle fell out of daylight saving in the uk.

yesterday we, lost, what did we, what Dave? What did we do? Did we gain an hour or losing an hour? We went

[00:03:05] Dave Grey: back an hour, so we had an extra hour in bed.

[00:03:07] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So we gained an, hour, I think we say gained an hour.

[00:03:09] Dave Grey: Yes. Yeah.

[00:03:09] Nathan Wrigley: And we gained an hour. I never know when that's happening these days. I was saying to Michelle, it used to be that I'd go around as a child and I would, my job as a kid was to just do all the clocks.

So the night before my parents would tell me, do the clocks, move them back, move on. I go around the house and do the clocks. Nowadays you wake up and your phone or your inter internet connected alarm clock or whatever it may be. It's just, it's fixed. So anyway, I didn't know and I forgot to tell Michelle about that, so It's okay.

Yeah. Thank you.

[00:03:39] Michelle Frechette: I had an extra hour of prep time this morning.

[00:03:42] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. That's good. That's good. and we're also joined by Dave Grey. Hello, Dave.

[00:03:47] Dave Grey: Hello. Good to be back again.

[00:03:49] Nathan Wrigley: I've got two bios for Dave. I'll read 'em both actually, because I had an original one and then Dave updated it because I think he thought that I didn't have the original one.

So we'll do 'em both. Why not? Dave, AKA friendly web guy is the Man behind Toggle WP the Toggle, easy for me to say. The Toggle. WP Plugin and Website Toolkit SaaS, actually, they're basically the same, so I'll just add a little bit. Toggle. WP is a plugin that helps freelancers turn table stakes, WordPress maintenance into a service your clients won't want to leave.

And website toolkit a new set of integrated tools to launch client sites with confidence. Yeah, and he's sporting his, You. Oh, as much as possible. There you go. The first angle. thank you for joining us once again, Dave. Appreciate it. Dave's been on the show before. Michelle's been on the show before, but Ivana has never been on the show before.

Hello, Ivana.

[00:04:46] Ivana Ćirković: Hi. First time charm.

[00:04:48] Nathan Wrigley: First. Yeah, that's right. And you're looking very like you've been on holiday, let's put it that way. Yes. Yeah. Yes indeed. Really nice

[00:04:55] Ivana Ćirković: indeed. Hi.

[00:04:56] Nathan Wrigley: Hi. Now the bio I've got is very short for Ivana. So I'll just read it out and then you can say a bit more if you want to add to it.

the bio just reads marketing specialist at WP Bakery. So if the, given that they, that took considerably less time than everybody else's, do you want to add anything to that?

[00:05:14] Ivana Ćirković: it's okay for now and we can elaborate later through the stories, but yeah. I'm someone who has been working in marketing for 18 plus years and for the last two years, with WP Bakery, helping them turn their business stories into messages and stories that relate to their audiences.

yeah, happy to

[00:05:37] Nathan Wrigley: be here. I, I'm just beginning because I'm never had a product before. I've always had, like building websites and things like that. And now I've got this SaaS platform, which I'll promote in a minute. I, it just suddenly occurs to me that, oh, that's why you need somebody like that.

Is it Okay? Yes,

[00:05:57] Michelle Frechette: exactly.

[00:05:59] Nathan Wrigley: Stories. Okay. We need stories. I genuinely didn't quite understand it. Not that I didn't understand it, I just couldn't, couldn't leap in my own head to why those were quite as necessary. And now I, totally get, it. now, just to say that if you want to join us on this show, we would love that.

Typically we have a bunch of people making comments. The best way to do that is probably to go to this page. If you go to wp builds.com/live, there's two ways of commenting over there. YouTube comments are embedded to the right of the player on a desktop and below it on, like a phone or something like that.

But if you don't have a Google account or you don't wish to comment through Google's platform, then you can click the live chat button inside the video player and that will create an option for you to put your name in and then we'll know who you are. So you can do it anonymously, in that way as well.

it's really nice when people do comment, it keeps the show going and no doubt, if you've got something to say, the panellists would love to hear it and feedback and whatnot. So let's see if anybody has in fact give us, given us a comment. Oh, we have. Yeah, there we go. Reese is joining us.

We're gonna mention Word Camp Manchester a bit later. Re so stick around for that. He says, afternoon folks. Looking forward to talking about PHP and not ai. like it, I'm, not really gonna, PHP thing, we, bundled it towards the end. 'cause it turned out to be a bit of a damp squid, didn't it, it didn't, it got everybody panicked, but with the, with a, you know how to describe it as Locke could have it.

it didn't destroy everything in the way that we all anticipated it would and Ko Ooh, what a great panel today. Hi. Hi

[00:07:44] Ivana Ćirković: Ko. Hi Ko.

[00:07:45] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Isn't that nice? What a nice comment That is. Steve Burg is joining us from the us. happy Monday WordPress people. Indeed.

[00:07:54] Ivana Ćirković: Hi. Hello Steve.

[00:07:54] Nathan Wrigley: Hello Steve. nomad Skateboarding.

I'm guessing that's an icon, an emoji. Oh, yes it is. It is in fact a pink wave of a hand. So there we go. Hello. And also Andrew. And also we've got WP Mark uk. So that's Mark. I'm Mark Wilkinson. Hello, saying hello as well. And then Steve says My Plus. Yeah, I, will mention it this week. I'm gonna say its name this week.

I am actually gonna try, it's a teaser. I'm so bad at promoting things. Ivana. I dunno what it is. There's a British bit of me which pops up and goes, be quiet.

[00:08:28] Ivana Ćirković: No, it's the usual fear of, business owners.

[00:08:31] Nathan Wrigley: Okay.

[00:08:31] Ivana Ćirković: They are like taken aback when they need to sell their own thing. Yeah. Because of fear. Am I doing it wrong?

Am I doing it too much?

[00:08:42] Nathan Wrigley: Know it for me, what people say. It's not, it is a bit of fear. I think it, it's, There's, the closest word I can get is embarrassment and it's, but it's not quite embarrassment, but it's something like that. There's, it's Dave, maybe you can empathise with this. I dunno if you feel this a bit, but there's just something very peculiar for the part of the world in which I operate.

Where you talk about yourself in positive terms. That's, like a real taboo. Not for everybody. Obviously there's a lot of people who can completely get rid of that thing, but, I suffer from it terribly. and so whenever things like this podcast is mentioned or this product that I've got, my immediate reaction is to just brush it one side and go, ah, whatever,

[00:09:35] Dave Grey: Dave, do you get it?

[00:09:36] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:09:36] Dave Grey: Yeah. It's like the whole, yeah, you can build stuff, you know what to do, but marketing is like, how do you try and make it sound normal and promote things without being like, you must buy it. Okay, I've got a deal coming up. Which you must buy.

[00:09:48] Ivana Ćirković: marketing is not, you must buy it. That is sales, marketing is, okay.

Wonderful. I like the importance, yeah. Importance of what you built. So let's say, your SaaS product, Nathan, you talk about it from the perspective, what it brings to your target audiences. Up until now, we didn't have a platform for podcast the way you built it. And, this overall, let's say, platform that enables us to fully emerge, not just to listen to it, but to interact in a way that is easy.

So you can clip that and use it.

[00:10:30] Nathan Wrigley: That's literally a trillion times better than I would've done. You could write down the notes. I've recorded it. Yes. He's

[00:10:38] Michelle Frechette: gonna play it back later.

[00:10:40] Nathan Wrigley: play that back. That's so inspiring. Thank you. So Steve, forgive me. I am gonna try this week. I am gonna get my head out of that sandpit and I am gonna try promoting things a little bit.

So you'll see that in a moment, right? Back to the comments. But Ivana, thank you. That made me feel much, much better. hey everyone here on this on time this week. We are on time. Yeah. welcome to the show, Ivana. That's awesome. So is

[00:11:02] Michelle Frechette: Marcus.

[00:11:04] Nathan Wrigley: yes, Marcus is, that's right. hello. Everyone is recovering from, yes.

web D So I am guessing this is Ollie. I'm not sure if it's Ollie. It says

[00:11:13] Michelle Frechette: Ali from Web D. Yeah,

[00:11:14] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. oh yeah. It says at the end it's been a long week. It's been, it's only my long week. That's right. but I did guess it was Ollie, so that's quite a good Marcus. So happy to see the rest of you. As always.

Courtney's here. Hello mug of coffee. And then finally Taco. For now. Thank you. Ivana's bio is way too short, but just tell people to check out all the talks she did at Word Camps around the world. Yay.

[00:11:41] Dave Grey: Yes.

[00:11:43] Nathan Wrigley: you can send, yeah, I'll send it. That's great. Or the other way around. She can, we'll send me an invoice.

and then Nomad Skateboarding. I've always just been inclined to shine light on others more than myself. Can definitely relate. Nathan. Thank you.

[00:11:56] Dave Grey: Yeah.

[00:11:56] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that's great. Okay, with that in mind. Okay, here it comes. Brace yourself, Nathan. It's gonna be okay. this bit I do every week. So this is a piece of cake.

So this is WP Build. This is the, the, the, the website that we have. If you want to, keep in touch with what we do, we put out a newsletter every couple of weeks. Just put your email address into that field and we'll send you, an email. One is when this show is put out, which will be tomorrow morning.

we'll, put it out as a podcast episode. So you'll get that along with a great long list of, news articles, many of which we're gonna feature, but probably there's double the amount that we're gonna touch on today, stuff that's happened in the WordPress space. So you'll get that. The other thing, that you'll get is, a notification about when the latest episode of our podcast comes out.

So the most recent one was all about, uncanny automator. We had the developer of uncanny automator on, so we chatted about that, which was quite nice. so next bit of promotional stuff is that our Black Friday page has come around again, if you, are in the WordPress space and you fancy looking for WordPress deals, I think there's about a, I don't know, like 75 or something like that.

What's the number? 72? There you go. 72 people have put their deals on there. It's totally free. By the way, if you wanna list your deal, you just click this, add a deal button, and there's a form. You fill it out and, you can come on here, but you can search and filter for all the different bits and pieces, and it's got the dates when they're running from, and two, and the coupon code and the discount number and all that kind of stuff.

And if you want to, you can advertise on this page and go like this pride of place spot at the top. The, the top three ones have already gone. That one is a work in progress. Somebody contacted me this morning and they've taken that one. So there's these four, if you fancy getting on there and, having your product featured a little bit more heavily, then click the little get started button there.

Okay. Right now, deep intake of breath. right here we go. I have a SaaS, it's called show, it's called Show fm. I've been building it, or I should say I've been persuading somebody to build it for me called, called Dan Ma. I dunno if you've come across Dan in the uk, we've built a SaaS to help podcasters do all their podcasty bits and pieces.

And, now there's, probably about 30, 40, 50 people that have been through it, something like that on this show so far, I think it's been working absolutely fine, but basically the, the whole premise of it is if you've got a podcast, so you've got clients that run a podcast, we do pretty much everything apart from the recording.

So the recording and editing you're gonna do somewhere else, but pretty much everything else to do with your podcast will handle for you. as an example, you can't see it, but the guests on this show have been able to log in over the weekend and chat inside of the show notes and been able to see what's going on.

It's interesting watching people chat in the show notes. That's a nice little feature. But we do automation, send out emails, guest reminders. There's a whole guest network. We publish it, do hosting, do analytics. There's an MCP layer if you fancy getting your AI involved with it. yeah, and we've got a, a deal running at the moment, until the 31st of October.

So there's about five days left and if you sign up, you'll get 75% off our founder's deal, which is three years of our plan. So anyway, there you go. That's my best attempt, which felt a little bit dreadful, but anyway, there you go.

[00:15:32] Michelle Frechette: I have a show post, hosted with you, which is not, we don't even have the website built yet, but we've got four, I think four episodes out.

And I can say that it works incredibly well.

[00:15:44] Nathan Wrigley: Nice

[00:15:44] Michelle Frechette: and actually has more features than I anticipated.

[00:15:47] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:15:47] Michelle Frechette: And made things incredibly easy for me.

[00:15:49] Nathan Wrigley: There's a lot of features coming. One of the, one of the most, one of the most curious bits, Michelle, is as time goes by and you get more episodes under your belt, if you connect an AI agent, and by the way, we don't, do much ai, but I just think given that we're on a live show, this is easy to pause.

You'll be able to ask questions of your podcast. So for example, you'll be able to say things like, which shows were popular and who was on them. And we'll know who was on them. And we'll be able to do things like, because we've got all the analytics and we've got the transcript and we know who spoke and when they spoke and what they said, we'll be able to answer the question, which topics are popular?

What things should I repeat again? Who should I have back on to talk about this particular thing? And it's really interesting when all that stuff starts to come out. I've now uploaded about 850 episodes of my podcast and asking questions like that. It is genuinely interesting what comes out. It's a

[00:16:55] Ivana Ćirković: gold mine of

[00:16:56] Nathan Wrigley: information.

It's a gold mine, and most of it I never knew. I never knew because we all humans have a short memory, right? You do one episode, you do the next and you concentrate on this one. This enables you to build up that corpus of knowledge Through the MCP and ask it. But that really is only one tiny little corner of what it does.

So Steve Burge, how was that?

[00:17:18] Ivana Ćirković: Or if you need an elevator pitch, you can on just say something like it's show fm, manage WP but for podcasts

[00:17:29] Nathan Wrigley: right? It is. It's like that. It's like N two. It's podcast management. Yeah. Yeah it is. That's exactly right. anyway, there you go. Check it out. Show FM if you fancy that and we would be very, welcoming to have you on board.

Okay. Now it's Dave's go to promote. One of the things that we do is if you come on this show, you get a little chance to bring some stories along and that could be self-promotional stuff or it could be just other things. This week, Dave, obviously in the run up to, I dunno, Halloween and Black Friday and things like that.

He's got a bit of a deal going on one of his products. Here it is. It's called the WP or the website, I should say. Sorry, toolkit. And it's an agency bundle. Dave, just now I'm putting you on the spot.

[00:18:10] Dave Grey: Yeah,

[00:18:10] Nathan Wrigley: you go for it. Tell us what it does and what the deal is.

[00:18:16] Dave Grey: so yes, I've basically got two deals on here.

One bit's for kind of website toolkit only. So it's 'cause I, if you think like your old little Swiss multi tools on things, it has quite a few different things to just enough level that like a freelance or a small agency would need on that side. It started off as like a simple, I'd say a technical website audit on there.

Then it grew into having your go live sort of checklists, digital customer sort of client feedback and bits on there. But it's all integrated together. So if you're like a freelance like me doing the occasional site build and things, you've probably got the old Excel spreadsheet or notion on that bit for all the tasks to go live,

[00:18:53] Nathan Wrigley: right?

[00:18:53] Dave Grey: They're great but it doesn't actually know what pages you've got in your site. So say your list said check all pages on there. You've gotta figure out all the pages on that bit. But by having the audit tied into all this bit, it would know all the pages you've got on there. So you can go through and say I've checked all these bits off.

There's little optional feedback widget as well. So if you're at the final stages of doing your site build, your client can go on there, do visual feedback that ties it all into that site or through

[00:19:20] Nathan Wrigley: nice.

[00:19:20] Dave Grey: Which kinda like the website toolkit part. But over the last few months I've also been doing a complete rebuild of Toggle wp, which is basically why we've got the agency bundle.

So that if you are doing maintenance services and things on there, you could have the triple play of potentially saving or growing some additional services for the agency to include in their premium plans for like your AI content assistance and your technical site reviews. That ironically passes across two website toolkits.

And then some other security and other login protection things on that side sort through as well as some extra sort of modules in there that are really handy for your end client to use on that side through. So I thought rather just try and pitch one bit, I'll try and pitch two at the same point on there.

And yeah, the only few bundles, lifetime for website toolkit and one year for Toggle WP for 15 sites to help you get tested in that side through. yeah,

[00:20:14] Nathan Wrigley: okay.

[00:20:15] Dave Grey: It's basically from basically now because I've got the Stripe links in this morning trying to get this bit just in case I happen to mention it on the show until the end of the year.

So you've got time to give it a tryout. But the best fit is if you watching this and click on the try demo, you've got a little fully interactive sandbox on there, which is basically your own standalone copy of that bit for an hour. So you can have a play around all the bits in there and after an hour just self-destructs and disappears on that side so that you can literally see all the bits that are in there.

'cause I'm one of those people that you can list these things, but what exactly does it do? click on that bit, take it for a spin and see exactly what's in there.

[00:20:51] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, nice,

[00:20:53] Dave Grey: nice,

in a nutshell.

[00:20:54] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, and that's, that's running through Black Friday, right? So

[00:20:57] Dave Grey: yeah, so basically from now until the end of the year, just to try and milk as much as possible because this is a new service on there.

Anyway, I had seven or eight sort of early spur sales a couple of months ago and been getting feedback from different agencies on there. So it has continuously been developed and built on that side. But yeah, now it's a good chance to grab yourself a deal.

[00:21:17] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you. and you can see the pricing there.

Agency bundle 3, 4, 9. This is a one-off thing and the website toolkit only is 2 4 9. I will put the links in the show notes, just like all the other bits and pieces that we're gonna talk about today. I'll put the links in the show notes so that you can grab them. And, and then we'll, I guess we'll segue into, the sort of regular WordPress news.

Like I said to Reese in the comments at the beginning, I'm gonna leave the PHP stuff right to the very end. And there isn't a lot in all honesty that we're gonna say about that. But let's start here. This is Reese, sadly, some AI news. but this is to say that. As of, I don't know, a couple of days ago, three or four days ago, something like that.

Matt Mullenweg has given the green light to, the M an MCP being part of a default WordPress instal. So it's gonna go into WordPress core. I think there's quite a few people that are a little bit surprised, not that ever was gonna happen 'cause it felt like that was the, trajectory, but the fact that it's happened so quickly, because it was only a few weeks ago, really, that this whole idea, launched and now it's gone into, possibly into core.

Obviously it's not shipping in core anytime soon, but the idea will be that it will, there's obviously gonna be those people who, for whom this is brilliant, great news. And then there's other people for whom it's, why do we need this? In core? This should stay as a canonical plugin. Everything's moving too quickly.

And so Ray tries to sum it up in this piece, WordPress AI team moves to make MCPA default part of WordPress with 7.3 floated as the target, and we're in beta one territory for 7.2. So it's months and months away, but still interesting that this has been, smuggled, that's the wrong word, but, pushed into core, in fairly rapid time.

The, the actual piece about it was this one. This is on make.wordpress.org, and it's called AI Contributor Weekly Summary. 21st of October. So it was about five days ago. Now, if anybody wants to add anything to that, please do. If not, I will wait for a moment and then move on.

[00:23:31] Ivana Ćirković: I would maybe question the reasoning, why it is, being pushed to core and what it means for the ordinary WordPress users.

I understand the hype as a marketer, like AI is everything nowadays. however, the majority of people within or outside WordPress still don't understand, to the full extent AI capabilities and they don't understand WordPress as well. We see that through WordPress credits initiative, like when we try to bring more young people in.

They don't understand and or don't care about WordPress as it is. And to that equation to add this another level of some technicality that is still unknown to majority of people. I think that is something that potentially can only push them away more than bring them in. So are we making WordPress easier to use or are we introducing another level of something that will be, seen as complexity?

[00:24:45] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. That's really interesting that,

[00:24:47] Ivana Ćirković: that, that's mine.

[00:24:48] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I I have this sort of mixed feeling about it and my mixed feeling kind of goes a bit like this. It feels like everywhere I go on socials, there's that inevitable WordPress is dead, use AI instead, Yeah. You see it all over the place and then you get the rebuttal, which is WordPress is not dead and here's the reasons why AI with WordPress is superior.

that all the time. This back and forth. However, when I see something like this, it, there's a bit of me, which feels, does, is this all happening too quick? Is there a little bit of desperation here where we're trying to just fold tools in because we, need to, because the world is moving at such a fast pace, but does it send a mixed message like, now AI is your website.

Okay. You can do it in WordPress. I'm not really articulating what I'm thinking very well, but hopefully you get an idea that it, feels like a bit of a mixed message. There's a bit of me which wonders if we're, just gobbling up our own user base in a way. again, I'm not really articulating that very well, but hopefully you get

[00:25:57] Ivana Ćirković: it feels rushed.

I understand your point. it feels rushed and like you said, everyone is doing it. Let us do as well. But why? I'm the type of person that always questions why and until there is a solid answer to why. I don't think it, it should be in 7.3 or the other.

[00:26:20] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:26:20] Ivana Ćirković: Yeah. Just because people are saying war persist, that doesn't mean that we need to introduce AI in the core.

Yeah. That is not the reason.

[00:26:29] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I'm, I'm really annoyed with myself because prior to this conversation, I, sat and thought about that article for ages and I had it really clear in my head, and then I read all the other ones afterwards. Now I've now emptied my head of what was there, but it is this mixed message and it's this, oh, I know the word I want cannibalising.

That's the word I'm after. If we're in a desperate race to keep up, so much so that some of the things that we may be putting in may be directly cannibalising, the opportunity for WordPress in the future. In other words, if everybody comes, becomes very familiar with the AI tools, will they learn?

Okay. the next step is I don't actually need WordPress. I've learned through WordPress that I can do all this with ai. Time will tell. I get it from both sides. And I find the arguments about the pro ai WordPresses, you still need the backbone and all of the different bits and pieces and all of the things which WordPress is good at.

I'm a hundred percent behind that. I get that totally. But equally, if you present something often and off as the solution, I wonder if people are just gonna, in the end, go, which bit of this don't I need anymore? Maybe the WordPress bit is the bit that I don't need. Dave, anything on that?

Michelle,

[00:27:48] Dave Grey: I'm very much on the fence of, yes, it could be a good thing, but then who's it being added there for? And if you do get that connection in, what's it, then you're gonna talk to afterwards. 'cause you may need other things and different abilities in there to know about those. So it's a bit like, Hey, you've got a key for the front door, I dunno, the way, way around the house.

Oh, Okay.

[00:28:05] Nathan Wrigley: That's

[00:28:05] Dave Grey: interesting. Yeah. You can get in technically easier once you've set up authentication in bits, but yeah, what happens next? That's not gonna be for you beginners doing things, so Yeah,

[00:28:15] Nathan Wrigley: yeah,

[00:28:15] Dave Grey: Okay. It's early days. It's book sticking exercise.

[00:28:19] Nathan Wrigley: I think it, it's so profoundly quick though, isn't it?

really AI is moving things at the rate at which I just simply can't keep up. you open up like your social feed or your newsfeed each morning, and I know this is an exaggeration, but every week it feels like something groundbreaking and has happened. Whether that be a security vulnerability or a new AI feature which is shipped, or some, some SaaS app that somebody's vibe coded together, or Mac app or what have you.

I, it is almost impossible, to keep up and in, in that sense. It becomes a little bit dispiriting, doesn't it? When it's all just so fast. Michelle, anything before we move on?

[00:29:02] Michelle Frechette: I named my AI sage over the weekend, so I have a very good relationship with him.

[00:29:08] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Do you, do you, view it like a thing?

is sage a thing in your head?

[00:29:14] Michelle Frechette: It, it's funny, right? Yeah. that's why I did it. 'cause it's funny and I just, rather than, whatever, but, I do, I have been leaning into AI more and more, but I, and I have conversation with it when I'm trying to work through a problem just because that's how my brain works.

But at the end of the day, I don't be like, all right, see you tomorrow. Have a good night. Yeah,

[00:29:37] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Don't turn me off,

[00:29:38] Dave Grey: off pat

[00:29:39] Nathan Wrigley: one that's coming. I'm sure that'll come, but Yeah. probably what you mean. so we've got a few comments about this. Let's put them up. So first one, oh, the first one is Steve.

It's about me and promoting. Yeah. I need a t-shirt, apparently. t-shirt and a hat. And also I feel that thing, that hexagonal thing that's not doing very much work for me. maybe that should be a great big logo. Thank you, Steve. Appreciate it.

[00:30:05] Michelle Frechette: You, need one of those big banners like you used to

[00:30:08] Nathan Wrigley: yeah.

For the, yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:08] Michelle Frechette: Strategically placed for the other things you did.

[00:30:11] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Okay. That's it. I'm getting one. All right. It's done. Done how long? Don't know, right? Here we go. so Nomad Skateboarding says, and it's been truncated, so I'll read it off my screen, which I'll add a little bit more. I feel it's anti ai that's more of a hurdle for, people than understanding the tech.

just because developers are all in, doesn't change. Most users of every platform are against AI almost everywhere. That is so curious. So I genuinely don't have a good metric for how realistic it is for everybody to be excited about ai because I am on the computer 24 7 and social feeds are engineered to keep you, keep you sucked in.

I have this impression that everybody's using ai, but I know my kids don't like it because they can see the theft of their future. My immediate family, as far as I'm aware, nobody's using it, so maybe I should just be sanguine about it and calm down. 'cause nobody really gives two stuffs about it.

okay. Mark then carries on. I guess you could argue similar with the rest. API. Yeah, that's a good point. Your everyday WP user doesn't know about it or use it. Yeah. Thank you. But it has ended up being very important and opened the door for a lot of future. Have a lot of developments. Thank you.

could it be the same with the MCP? I'm sure you're right. I'm sure it could be. I feel like the rest, API though doesn't have this like, massive broad horizon that AI does where AI can solve so many things in one go. The rest, API, I feel is still quite a technical hurdle. Whereas an tp,

[00:31:59] Dave Grey: but it doesn't, the MTP then used the rest a p and things

[00:32:01] Nathan Wrigley: then kind of things through.

It's very meta. yeah, that's true.

[00:32:05] Dave Grey: Like

[00:32:06] Nathan Wrigley: Skippy

[00:32:06] Dave Grey: do, take the mask off. Oh, it's rest. API all along.

[00:32:09] Nathan Wrigley: S yours is Sage, Michelle? James' is Jarvis or Hal. okay. So there we go. Let's throw that one out there. If you've named your ai, can we have the name please? Can you put that?

[00:32:22] Michelle Frechette: I actually let my name itself, I asked it what it wanted.

Did you be called

[00:32:26] Ivana Ćirković: me too?

[00:32:28] Michelle Frechette: Did you do that too? That's so funny. Yes.

[00:32:30] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, so here we go. It's already begun. So now we have Brian, my open claw was called Brian. Rest in peace. Brian. It's alright. You can just bring it back. be nice to all the machines. It will remember your kindness. I, have found myself writing please and thank you at the end of prompts, which I know doesn't really help.

But, Andro lost 58 billion last quarter, says nomad skateboarding. They need everyone to use it, whether it's correct, needed, et cetera. I think this maybe is a new story, which is gonna come round very quickly.

[00:33:03] Michelle Frechette: Yeah. I sent you a link about this one this morning.

[00:33:06] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. I'll have a look at that. I did see that.

Pop that in and a sec.

[00:33:09] Michelle Frechette: Yeah, it's, they're, getting ready for their IPO.

[00:33:13] Nathan Wrigley: So,

their IPO is coming soon. And this article, I've, I can't get it into the show quickly enough. But it reveals a 14 fold increase in growth as it prepares a blockbuster IPO. So really, I suppose the more news lines and items like this, there are, the more people will use it and get excited about it.

And Nomad Skateboarding finishes off, check out, any of the graduation. So many speeches where people and adults mention ai, they get loudly booed every single time. You are not wrong. My kids hate it. And it's not just a, like a disdain for it. They hate it. They can see the future being taken from them and all sorts of career opportunities that they grew up thinking were available are now evaporating in front of their eyes.

It is, it's, yeah, it's interesting. So we'll see how that goes. Okay. The comments,

[00:34:08] Ivana Ćirković: but that depends on the generation Sorry, for, budging in. Yeah. kids that are now in high school, they are regretful not being born sooner. So when the AI started, grownups couldn't known about it and them being early adopters couldn't get then cheat their way through high school.

[00:34:33] Nathan Wrigley: oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:35] Ivana Ćirković: And that is the majority of thinking of their, because I have high schooler in my house Yeah. And all the kids are like, why haven't I been born sooner? Now I can go. Yeah. So

[00:34:47] Nathan Wrigley: I could cheat. I didn't have to

[00:34:48] Ivana Ćirković: try. Yeah. My kids are,

[00:34:49] Nathan Wrigley: yeah,

[00:34:49] Ivana Ćirković: they just need shortcuts.

[00:34:51] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:34:51] Ivana Ćirković: Those youngsters.

[00:34:53] Nathan Wrigley: So

[00:34:53] Ivana Ćirković: yeah, the ones that are 20 plus, they knew world before AI and they know the repercussions of it. So it's,

[00:35:01] Nathan Wrigley: I know exactly what you mean. when I was a kid we had to go to the library and look in books if we wanted to learn something that was unavailable and then my kids had to sit at a desk and type on a computer and then, that then got put in your pocket so you didn't even have to switch your computer on.

It was just always available. Feels a bit like that. I suppose I'm being a bit of a Luddite and a bit of an elderly gentleman. It does feel though that the pace of change is so rapid. It's slightly discombobulating and the scope,

[00:35:32] Michelle Frechette: however

[00:35:33] Nathan Wrigley: of it as well. Yeah. Michelle.

[00:35:35] Michelle Frechette: however, when I was young and I didn't know how to spell a word and I was told to go look at it with the dictionary but didn't know how to spell it.

Yeah,

[00:35:42] Nathan Wrigley: that's right.

[00:35:42] Michelle Frechette: Now I can just turn to any like, voice operated AI such as Echo, Amazon, echo and say, how do you spell X, Y, Z? And it's and how do I say this word in Spanish or German or Dutch or whatever's. Its,

[00:35:56] Nathan Wrigley: it's so beguiling. you're quite right. It, there's, massive upsides and I think some interesting downsides.

Okay, so Marx is called Bob. And Claude. And Claude is just Claude. However, so far the winner, not that Leo. There is gonna be a winner. There's no prizes here, but, Marcus Burnetts is called Leopold Fitz. That's brilliant. Leopold. Fitz. Good morning, says Steph. is that Hey. Hi Steph. Yeah, nice to see you.

And, look at the people in the company behind the companies and the people who are profiting. Putting the tech aside. I don't use the word hate, but these are my least favourite people that I'm aware of. Okay. Alright, so there we go. There was a fair bit about, WordPress and MCP, which is gonna be launching possibly in WordPress 7.3 at some point soon.

All right, let's move on. release cycles. Keep going in the background. So in order to get from 7.1 where we're at to 7.3, we need 7.2. 7.2 beta is now available. And if you want to go check it out, which I would urge you to do, this doesn't feel like one of those cataclysmic releases where there's some major thing.

There's a lot of sort of polish going on here. And I'll just tell you about the highlighted items. improved global styles and design tools. And so the idea is there's this new customised filter for finding blocks with modified styles, or inherited global styles. So you'd be able to track things down, which you have changed or which have been modified at some point by somebody in the past and figure out where things have been changed.

Tech shadow support. Not a big thing, but I guess quite a big thing. Easier navigation. You'll be able to, add, organise, and edit navigation items directly from the editor sidebar. which is quite nice. That's just a little, Simple thing, but quite nice, better collaboration with notes. emoji reactions will come and the ability to keep notes and hide them away in its own little draw down the side, which will be quite nice.

media uploads are gonna be able to enable you to, prior to hitting your server, your browsers are gonna do some heavy lifting. So if you upload, for example, a big jpeg, you could automatically get it to convert in the browser to a small PNG or web P or something like that. And that way it'll never take up space on your server and you won't need a third party integration to handle that work for you.

And then there's a bunch of other things as well. I've seen some work being done on the WP admin area with sort of view transitions and that all looks really nice as well. but yeah, so if you want to go check it out, 7.2 B2 one is now ready for download and checking. Any of you three got anything on that?

Any of that standard? The

[00:38:48] Dave Grey: media stuff should be quite nice 'cause amount of people that just put a massive picture up there that it's desktop quality, but you need it that big. It's yeah, just I was gonna say just smash it down, but yeah, that'd be a bit like, oh, let's need to pivot slightly.

[00:39:02] Nathan Wrigley: I have, I pay for a, I say pay, I have paid in the past for a third party service to, suck it up into the media library, it goes off to some third party server, gets redownload, then put in the CDN and, all of that. And the browser will just do this admirably in the background and it's been able to do it for years.

I remember Pascal ler showing this off when he was with Google, literally five years ago. And, now it's gonna be in WordPress course, so that's, yeah. Thank you Dave. I agree. Nice little feature. Ivan?

[00:39:33] Ivana Ćirković: Yeah, I just add yeah, not every release needs to be some impressive feature list. Yeah. sometimes those usability, everyday usability things Matter the most. Because you, we need to keep in mind the regular people that are using this and hopefully get more new ones. So for those people who are managing websites, small businesses, content creators, like, all these editing, navigation, performance nips and tips are like adding and, they help everyday usability in that way.

So I always welcome every battery release, whether it's on, WordPress or org or within our company that we do, and always invite people to test and try it out because with every testing, the next release and the product gets better. So I'm welcoming that.

[00:40:36] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, thank you. Michelle, anything or shall we move on?

[00:40:40] Michelle Frechette: Nope, let's move on.

[00:40:42] Nathan Wrigley: I'm good. Okay. So this is not something I will be making use of anytime soon, but very important piece of work. And this kind of to me represents a real great example of just how deep and wide the WordPress ecosystem is. So this is, Ryan Welcher talking about something called the WordPress Contributor Toolkit.

It's reached version 2.0, and this is for people who let's I guess the perfect example, which he actually mentions is if you turn up for a Word camp and you have an intuition that you'd like to assist in some way, it may be that the laptop that you show up with hasn't got the reg, the, the tooling that you need.

Or maybe you're just playing for the first time and you waste, I'm going doing air quotes there. You waste half a day getting everything set up so that for the afternoon you can actually contribute. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a toolkit which would enable that to happen with a couple of clicks?

And that's what the contributor toolkit does. It enables you to put all of the bits and pieces that you need to get set up to start contributing at a meetup, at a Word camp, whatever it may be. And, they've gone through a couple of iterations now. So we're on V two and, hopefully it will, I'll just read.

It says the WordPress contributor toolkit removes the point of friction for first time contributors, what, which they face before they rely. Write a line of code during contributor days. You don't have to instal gi no js, NMPM or Docker on your machine. Version 2.0 brings a redesigned interface, which is now available in 10 languages.

And the core and Gutenberg workflows work the same way as 1.2. So they've redesigned it so that it looks really nice. They've got a new settings area, which they didn't previously have, so that you can adapt all of the different settings without getting lost. That's quite nice. Like I said, it's in 10 languages, which include Czech, Dutch, Canadian, English, uk, English, Gian, have I said that right?

Is that how you pronounce that? Yeah. Hungarian, Lao, Polish, Serbian and Turkish. What an eclectic range of languages. That is. That's amazing. and you can go and look at this article if you want to, explore that in more depth. But the reason I thought this was an interesting piece is, and I said it at the beginning, this to me just demonstrates the breadth and depth of our community.

The fact that there's an actual tool for that is so incredible. it just speaks to the amount of people wishing to show up and do these things. And WordCamp, Asia was a case in point, literally thousands of people wanting to contribute to WordPress and presumably quite a lot of time wasted every single time on every single table getting people set up.

When now you can just click a few buttons and you're good to go. Anything on that?

[00:43:37] Michelle Frechette: I'd never heard of Galician before, so I just looked it up. It's a language in, in the northwestern part of Spain.

[00:43:45] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. But, amazing that it's been taken care of. There must be an right.

[00:43:52] Michelle Frechette: It's

[00:43:52] Nathan Wrigley: just stuck.

[00:43:53] Michelle Frechette: I thought that was fun.

[00:43:54] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, Lao is a quite an interesting one as well. I've never met a contributor from Lao, but there you go. Dave Ivana anything or shall we move on?

[00:44:02] Dave Grey: Let's move

[00:44:03] Michelle Frechette: on. We can move on.

[00:44:04] Nathan Wrigley: All right. Indeed, we will in that case, right? Okay. So this one actually is, perfect for Ivana because I know that, WP Bakery and Ivana have been heavily involved with this.

So WordPress credits, is a system. IDO Do, do you wanna run with this a whole article or shall I introduce it in the normal way? I dunno. If you wanna

[00:44:25] Ivana Ćirković: introduce it, then I can

[00:44:27] Nathan Wrigley: chime in. Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah, thank you. this is a, programme in which, or it's run by the WordPress Foundation and it connects students and partner institutions with real contribution work on the WordPress project.

So the idea would be, let's say the, you're a PISA University And you would like to do a little bit on the WordPress project, but receive from Pisa University credits for your existing degree. that all seems like pie in the sky, doesn't it? who would do that? turns out a growing list of organisations would do that.

And in order to make that credible, you can imagine the amount of paperwork, which is going on in the background here for people like is Otter to make this happen. The universities have to know that this is a credible thing that's being set up. we're not just giving you, we call it Mickey Mouse.

I hope that's not too offensive. Like a, a Mickey Mouse course is something where there's not a lot of credibility. You do it, you pay to the institution. But really at the end of it, it was just a bit of a joke. nobody's gonna take it seriously. nobody wants that to be the case, especially the universities involved.

And so that's what WordPress credits is. It's being used at a growing number of institutions. I think 17 countries, being impacted by it. And 900 students have been through this programme. So it's a thing, but the growth of it means that it's maybe outgrowing its own success in a way, which is a good thing.

But there needs to be new revenue streams to make this happen. And so that's what this is. at the moment, companies like, We Glo Automatic, have been supporting this programme, but there's other companies, like for example, Ivana's WP Bakery hosting a DreamHost hosting.com, I dunno how to say that.

Ola, I'm gonna say Networks Cloud 86 Smart Host, Villa Soga, elemental Mini Orange, and Nova Mirror. They've all sponsored, mentors rather than the whole programme. Anyway. Now, if you would like to be associated with this and you would like to contribute some money, you can contribute directly into this project.

And there are five different, ways of doing it annually. There's something called friend, there's a supporter tier, a backer tier, a champion tier, and the biggest, one is the partner tier that stops at $30,000. Friend is an in kind thing, so there's no money directly exchanged. Supporter is 5,000 and all the others are in between.

And you can see there's a list of all of the different bits and pieces that you get in return. So there's my summary. Ivana, do you wanna take it from

[00:47:09] Ivana Ćirković: there?

[00:47:10] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:47:10] Ivana Ćirković: So basically, I like how you framed it. the initiative is. Outgrowing itself. That, that is definitely true. So for the programme that started, last year, so only a year, old, we've really made something very special.

the benefit for all the participants, students, universities, and businesses supporting are very transparent. Meaning students get to learn by doing actual contributing work within WordPress, and they get credited for it through their universities. Companies that choose to support, the initiative, whether through, mentorships, from their own, employees or through, donating money, are helping creating future business opportunities, helping in, getting to know those students.

They can then scout for their, contributions within their companies. Universities get, good PR because they are, teaching their students, skills that are highly marketable in today's day and age. So it's a win-win situations for everyone. And now with introducing these sponsorship tiers, we can even grow bigger and help more students and help WordPress itself because we need new people, we need young people.

We want to grow even bigger and stay strong as we are. so yeah, if you are interested in WordPress credits programme, go to the link that, Nathan shared. go through what otta, wrote and consider joining. So yeah,

[00:49:02] Nathan Wrigley: the, the link by the way, in case you wanna Google it, rather than wait for my newsletter to come out, it's, so it's make.wordpress.org.

That's the ultimate website, but it's called WordPress Credits, is opening sponsorship tiers. And I suppose one of the things you may be wondering, you know, if you're working for a company and you are in charge of marketing, the, the usual it's got a feel like a normal sponsorship arrangement. So for example, it's things like names on the, on a partner page, acknowledge in a sponsor, thank you.

Post badge on your own site. So there's something that you can display on your own property.

[00:49:40] Dave Grey: Yeah,

[00:49:40] Nathan Wrigley: you get an annual programme report, a self written educational post about the sponsored product. And then as you go towards the bigger tiers, it's things like, getting your name as a programme partner on the programme that you fund named in launch communications and progress specific, sorry, programme specific report.

So feels like the kind of thing that you might have found on a virtual summit or something like that. But obviously in this case it's much more,

[00:50:06] Ivana Ćirković: it's much more because you get to see the impact you make for new

[00:50:09] Nathan Wrigley: philanthropic. Yeah. Nice.

[00:50:10] Ivana Ćirković: Yeah,

[00:50:11] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Yeah. That's, great, isn't it? Michelle or Dave, anything on that.

[00:50:17] Michelle Frechette: What I really like about this, so when we have people sponsoring Word camps absolutely necessary. I love it. It's an opportunity for companies to be seen, et cetera. What I like about sponsoring this is not only is it an opportunity for companies to be seen and, network through this, this network, but also because everybody's investing in the future of WordPress, right?

So what I love the most about the credits programme is we're getting people at the college level, whether they're older or younger.

Looking at WordPress as a solution. I'm, I turned 58 last week. I know that I'm not going to be the future of WordPress. I am the current, of WordPress.

But, at some point I'm going to want to retire and I want WordPress to still be here for other people. And so having that be the future and having companies invest in the future of WordPress, I think is just brilliant.

[00:51:13] Nathan Wrigley: And again, thank you. So it just speaks to you. Okay. So we do this every week, right?

Every, every week we do this show, and a lot of the time we're talking about products and services, so it's hosting, it's security, it's plugins and things like that, that, that's the mainstay of what we do. 'cause it's, it comes around a lot and people are interested in that, but what the heck?

this is such an interesting thing and it's going on as a subset of a WordPress thing. it's just utterly remarkable. There are people out there who are fielding, trying to talk to universities to persuade them that what they're doing is credible. That they can actually justify putting their students in front of these practitioners, these mentors who are given their time.

I'm imagining in most cases for free. Maybe there's, seconded by some company or what have you. And again, it just speaks to the depth of the project that we've got. And, maybe this is the rebuttal of AI that we need is look at the depth of what's going on inside a WordPress, get an MCP to do that.

[00:52:26] Ivana Ćirković: highly unlikely so

[00:52:28] Nathan Wrigley: far. yeah, in 2026.

[00:52:31] Ivana Ćirković: Yeah. Yeah,

yeah.

[00:52:31] Nathan Wrigley: But do you know what I mean? It, there is, there's this sense of the so much going on in WordPress and if, like me, you have to make a weekly summary of what's going on. I love this stuff because it's just so impactful. It's got all the right feels to it, hasn't it?

students, education, philanthropy, open source. What more could you want? It's so great. It's so great. Okay. Anybody want to go on that before I move us along? do, do. Have we got any more comments? I don't think so. no. Patricia's saying hello. That's nice. Hello, Patricia. Nice to have you with.

Hey, Patricia. The comments are lagging a bit. The, the WordPress, sorry. The, the platform comments are really quite far behind the ones that are going out into YouTube. So sorry if I don't see them in time, but, yeah. Anyway, there we go. Let's move on then. a couple of weeks. Jonathan Boser just posted something.

What's he saying? you're doing, oh, I'm not gonna read that out 'cause he's far too nice. we were talking about being, I can read it. We were talking about being British earlier, weren't we? Thank you, Jonathan. That's very kind of you to say that. I appreciate it. so a few weeks ago there was this real bruhaha in the accessibility space in WordPress.

I honestly can't remember how it happened. and I don't remember what led to it, but somebody in a slack, I'm gonna say slack. Was it a slack comment or a track ticket or something like that? there was this moment where Matt asked somebody to stop contributing inside of the accessibility team and I think said, perhaps use your talents elsewhere and what have you.

And, all of that went off and we didn't report on it 'cause I was having a bit of time off. But this has come as a bit of a rebuttal, to that. and it's by somebody called Darl. Apologies. Darryl Piller. Hiller. Is it Hiller? Tried it. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Daryl Hiller, who at the beginning, so it's an open letter.

he is a blind, I'm gonna say he 'cause Daryl, I'm assuming that's true. They are a blind, daily screen reader user. And this whole letter is about that controversy. And essentially what they're trying to do is say, what's going on? it, that felt to them like they are now confused about the state of accessibility.

What it's, what its importance is, how it's being regarded, how, how much it's going to be, a focus in the future. And so that's what this letter is. it's really well written. Doesn't really matter. I don't think which side of the fence you're on there. whether or not you think that argument went off in one direction or a different direction, but I think it's really worth reading.

Basically, it boils down to these points, in the spirit of openness that the WordPress project as long champion. I respectfully ask you, and this is specifically directed at Matt, do you consider accessibility a core requirement of WordPress on an equal footing with performance, security, usability rather than an optional enhancement?

What is your plan and the expected timeline for making admin notices, perceivable and navig navigable for screen reader and keyboard users? Now that the work behind and there's a ticket number has been moved into a future release that by the way, was the catalyst for this. It was the, it was a whole debate about whether or not admin notices were readable with somebody using assistive technology.

And I think the claim was they weren't work had been done to make it so that they were, and then it all went off. what authority and role will the accessibility team hold going forward and how will its expertise be incorporated into decisions that affect disabled users? What process and criteria were applied in removing Andrea first?

Sears apologies, Andrea, if that's not how you say your name. and what process will govern similar decisions in the future consistent with the projects code of conduct? What commitment can you make to authors, creators, developers, and site owners with disabilities that the tools they depend on will remain accessible to them?

anyway, I just thought that was an interesting sort of, counter to what had been going on. I genuinely don't know that, how that whole thing, developed as we most sort of news articles. you get the explosive moment where it all happens and then it all dies down. So I don't know if, if it went off in a different direction or things calmed down or what have you.

Anyway, I just thought that was an interesting piece. Anybody want to comment on that?

[00:57:26] Michelle Frechette: We talk a lot about accessibility in the last few years because we want the whole internet, but specifically the work that we do within WordPress to be accessible by people who don't have the same access that most of us do, like screen readers. the ability to, be able to vis physically see differences on the screen for those who can't, don't have the whole full colour spectrum, things like that.

for people who have older eyes like me, not to have grey text on a white background, all of those kinds of, kinds of things. And so I think it's really important that we keep moving two things forward and WordPress, if we want it to be really accessible to everybody. And that's one is accessibility and the other is multilingual.

And so we need to be able to have the back end of the, of WordPress be as accessible as the, as we are telling people to make the front end of WordPress. And that's incorporating multilingual and accessibility into, the dashboard site of WordPress.

[00:58:25] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I guess only time will tell whether that letter gets a response, but it was certainly an interesting, I thought it was really just really well summarised.

Basically. They were obviously very worked up about it, but dealt with it in a very economous way. Let's put it that way. Okay. Dave Ivana. If not, I'll move on. Okay, I'll move on. Here we go. Then in that case, we're onto this one. every time a release, of WordPress comes out, there is a sort of, a recap, where people can go and give their opinions on how a particular, feature might have landed or basically anything about the release, you can go and contribute.

And so this is the post, the recap post for 7.1. so it's the retrospective posts, that's what they call it, the retrospective post. So there'll be one for 7.2 and 7.3 and all of the ones going backwards. Now, the bit that caught my attention though, and this has got me slightly, I guess a little bit worried, is probably the way to put it.

So normally you'd read through this and you'd see all the charts and so look, there's some charts and there's some more charts. And it says things like, how did collaboration on collaborating on this project field? Did you contribute to the 7.1 release? Did you have an official role in the release squad during 7.1?

What else? You get the idea, a load of questions, people give out their responses. But suddenly it occurred to me this number, and I dunno if you could see that there it is, four people, responded to it. And there's a little bit of me when I saw that and thought that there was a couple of things, is it, worthwhile publishing the data from four people?

And I think the answer to that is, yeah, four people contributed their information on the understanding that if they contributed it, it would become part of the retrospective. publication. And so I think the answer to that is yes. But then the bit of me, which started to get worried is, how do we go on if this is the level of engagement that we have?

So we were talking about, credits and what have you. And I just felt a little bit there was, I don't know where I'm going with this. Really just felt a little bit sad really, that something like this wasn't engaged with, maybe this is something that just doesn't need to happen. People don't, they're not bothered, they just don't wanna contribute to a, a summary project, a summary publication like that.

Then my brain started to go on off in another direction, which is, we've got this sort of slightly declining market share. Does this herald, that kind of thing. do we need to worry about the project as a whole? Is it slowly gonna be death by a thousand paper cots? Maybe this is the beginning.

things like this, which used to be very popular and now going by the wayside. So anyway, there you go. If you want to read that, you can, you'll get the opinion of four different people, which is fine, but maybe this has, I dunno, maybe this has seen the end of its useful lifecycle or maybe it was just a blip, a one-off and only four people could contribute to this one.

But it does worry me a little bit that we've come from, a different place to where we are now with this. So nothing really to no question for you at all, but, if anybody wants to comment on that, you can, and if not, we will move on. We will move on in that case. Okay. Okay. So these next two are about hosting and they're both about hosting in this case on CloudFlare.

I'm, I've done quite a few of these different bits and pieces and I always end up backing out. So the first one is a new and interesting project called Houseless wp, and it says it's called Run WordPress on CloudFlare Workers. Okay. Not CloudFlare pages. We'll come to that in a minute. For a free, faster, more secure website.

One command moves your running site with plugins theme and my SQL database, no server to look after, no rewrite. So go and check this project out. There's caveats, but the idea is you would have a dynamic website, not a static website, all running over on CloudFlare workers, which are amazing. and this is a project which hopefully would enable you to do that.

There's a description of how it works, what works, what doesn't, which things are currently enabled, which things aren't. So that was interesting. And then, this is Matt Cromwell posted a piece also this week about something extremely similar but not quite the same. This is his Roots and fruit.com website, which you are looking at now.

And if I click around you'll be able to see, it's pretty snappy. It's got view transitions and things. So it loads, in a sort of slightly, dynamic way. But he has moved his website over to a static website using the Simply Static plugin and, And it's on CloudFlare pages. And what used to cost him $17 a month, which seems fairly affordable, is now costing him a grand total of zero.

And I did wonder if any of you had played with these kind of things. I've put quite a few static websites out there, and there's a bit of me, which always ends up needing to come back to WordPress. There's just something I want to do and I end up back on a normal WordPress website. So anyway, there's two pieces.

If any of you want to describe that or, you've tried or experimented with these kind of things, let me know. If not, I will move on.

[01:04:11] Michelle Frechette: I think we talked about, I'm sorry, Ivana, go ahead.

[01:04:14] Ivana Ćirković: no, please. you finished then I will have one question.

[01:04:17] Michelle Frechette: I think last week we talked a little bit about space fast, right?

Did that bring that to Yes, we

[01:04:21] Nathan Wrigley: did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:04:21] Michelle Frechette: And that, that's basically, create, using AI to create a local, or not a local, but a, a static site as well. And so in that, I've used AI to create a static site. I have done that for sure. other than that, I haven't created an HTML site in years and years.

I've used WordPress only.

[01:04:41] Nathan Wrigley: But do does it bele you, does the idea of having something that's basically free and probably absent of security problems, is that compelling enough? Because I always end up wanting to do something which is slightly more complex than a normal static website will allow. I don't know, something to do with forms that will create a custom post type or something like that.

something which you can't do without PHP or a forms plugging being switched on the backend. So I always end up crawling back to WordPress.

[01:05:15] Michelle Frechette: It depends on what I'm building. Because if I'm building something that's just a brochure site, static's fine.

[01:05:20] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it really is. Yeah, it really is.

That's, yeah, I think that's a fair summation

[01:05:26] Michelle Frechette: of it. Can you remember Strat when Strat came out? I know it's not around anymore, but, we had big orange chart on strata creating

[01:05:33] Nathan Wrigley: Yep.

[01:05:33] Michelle Frechette: static sites for us through WordPress, so that was pretty cool.

[01:05:37] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Mark makes a good point. He says, how is paying zero for hosting sustainable?

It must be somewhere. This is the other big fear, isn't it? Is that everything just goes into CloudFlare and disappears and eventually CloudFlare becomes the next, I don't know, evil Corp. When they, you

[01:05:52] Michelle Frechette: have to wonder. Yeah. You do have to wonder if something is for free now, is it gonna stay free? But Avada, what were you gonna say?

[01:05:57] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, sorry.

[01:05:58] Ivana Ćirković: It's, it rarely stays free. That's for once. And, we were mentioning accessibility. What I wonder always within these new tools, new features, something shiny, sparkle, I'm like, I'm too old to, to embrace everything. I welcome yes. And, initiative, but always have to think about. how accessible these new setups are for the regular people who don't do development, who don't understand it, yes, depending on the goal of the static page, you don't always need WordPress or any other CMS, however, what's behind these new shiny tools, how accessible they are for everyday people, and yeah.

Does it stays free? No, it doesn't. So yeah, I'm very cautious with everything.

[01:06:58] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. Dave, anything?

[01:07:02] Dave Grey: Yeah, I can see the point of having it on pages because it does just load fast. You literally got nothing else to run behind there. But then when I was reading through this beforehand, it's oh, one part of it lives over there, but you've still got your WordPress database where it was to start with, and I know where I host.

You would then just open that database up for some other connections through. yeah.

[01:07:22] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[01:07:22] Dave Grey: I don't wanna say it's gimmicky. It might have been an interesting thing on that side to come through, but I could see the static and the pages being a lot more worthwhile, like brochure sites and things.

[01:07:32] Nathan Wrigley: I ended up doing it. I've probably done it half a dozen times, maybe a dozen times, something like that, where I've put out a, a, a little site and I ended up going static. But then it was just things like wanting to schedule a post. you've got no server that's active and so you can't schedule a post.

You have to spin up the site. in my case, it was either on local or some sort of spawn down dev site somewhere. So bring that back to life. Make the post live. So this is on the, the pages side of things, not on the, workers side of things. Bring the site live, publish it, and then shot it all down again.

And I guess if you've got a blog or something like that, or forms, it's probably not that ideal, but I take your point, mark. Yeah, I, it concerns me that if we're constantly in a race for everything to be free, where do we end up with that? And I think the answer is, CloudFlare owning everything. I love CloudFlare though.

I find it very hard to be down on CloudFlare. 'cause they give so much away for free. So it's pretty cool. Anyway, so Host List, WP is one of them. And, macro World's website is another one that's with the Simply Static plug that's just a plugin. You just literally put a plugin in your WordPress website, point it to something like CloudFlare Pages and you're done and move your DNS to wherever your CloudFlare pages are.

And it's, all done. It's brilliant. That solution does work really well. But yeah. okay, let's move on. So this one for no reason, caught my attention. there's a project by, oh, what is his name? Austin Ginder. That's it called Min Admin, which I've been following quite closely, where the idea is you customise your admin interface.

this one came across my radar. I think this one was in Remus newsletter or DDAs, WP Weekly, can't remember, but I thought this was curious. It's not new. it's got very few downloads at the moment. 10 downloads. They're on version 1.4 0.5. But if, like me, you just enjoy faffing. with the admin interface, this might be worth a look.

It's called admin boost, WP admin, white label, menu editor, theme, top bar shortcuts, the whole thing. So I just thought I'd raise that 'cause that's, a little project that I thought was worth mentioning.

[01:09:57] Michelle Frechette: I like the cleverness between ed admin and admin. Yeah, because I thought you, had actually misspelt it in the, show notes until I clicked the link.

[01:10:06] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I'm guessing it's a mixture of edit and admin or something like that. I love stuff like this though. I genuinely do enjoy faffing with the admin side of my WordPress site. And it's one of those things where every minute that I spend on it, I look back and I think, you idiot, why are you just wasting time?

You are the only person actually on the inside of this website looking at it. But I But you want to

[01:10:29] Ivana Ćirković: make it enjoyable.

[01:10:30] Nathan Wrigley: I do. That's the point.

[01:10:32] Ivana Ćirković: Yes.

[01:10:32] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I wanna make it enjoyable. I,

[01:10:35] Michelle Frechette: you're also the band who finds a different, web browser every other day too.

[01:10:40] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that's, yeah, that's also true.

I, but I do, I enjoy switching things off so that, things which are in a default instal are no longer visible to me. So turning off a load of menus and stuff like this. So this kind of thing really appeals. So anyway. Go check it out. it's by as Ashy Mann, or sorry, whatever you, it'll be

[01:11:02] Michelle Frechette: in the show notes.

[01:11:02] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it'll be in the show notes anyway, but you can go check it out. But also, I just thought, boy, he's got to WordPress. Sorry, he's got to version 1.4 0.5. He released it two weeks ago. I dunno how many really versions of prior to that, but, it's got fewer than 10 instals. So I thought, oh, let's throw this gun, let's

[01:11:21] Ivana Ćirković: give him a boost.

[01:11:21] Nathan Wrigley: That's it. Give him a boost. It looks, like a fun little project, so go check it out. Okay, speaking of fun little project, I don't quite know what to make of this one. So a, a theme, a block based theme that I have been making use of a lot recently is, Mike McAllister's Ollie, if you've not used it before, I really like it.

it does a lot of things outta the box. There's a really credible free version. It's got loads of patterns which enable you to, build some default websites for free. There's a paid version as well, but what I haven't seen in the block space, in the block, in the sort of site editing space, in the block theme space is child themes.

And so when I saw this, this peaked my interest. It's called vert, I'm guessing there's some skateboard reference here. I, don't, I think vert is a skateboard thing. Move. I don't know, I'm dating myself a little bit. But, I scrolled around a little bit and I thought, this is interesting. a child team for a block team not seen that before.

And then as I went further down, there was just something familiar about it and it made me think who's made this? And it's, it's, it's Brian from Genesis, who's been around in the, WordPress space for absolutely years and years. And I dunno if this is like a paid thing because if you look down here.

There's a kind of an option for you to give him your, first name and email address. So I don't know if it's gonna be like he's gonna put you on a wait list or something like that. But, anyway, there you go. And it's a new thing on me, a child theme for a block theme. So if you fancy it, if this site appeals to you and you think, yeah, that looks pretty good, maybe, maybe go check it out.

Yeah. Brian Gardner, there it was. That's how I knew at the bottom it said Brian Gardner. So he used to have a project, which Genesis? Yeah, but after Genesis, he, when he went to WP Engine, he was working on a block theme as well, and I've forgotten what it was called. but maybe he's abandoned that cotton.

[01:13:33] Michelle Frechette: Is it called Cotton

[01:13:34] Nathan Wrigley: Cotton? No, but is it like, it's like that, it's something

[01:13:38] Michelle Frechette: fluffy.

[01:13:39] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. No, but it's like cotton or pattern or something. I've forgotten. Anyway, yeah. there you go. And James is saying that, Ollie is amazing, so Okay. Maybe it's a solid foundation. Yeah. Maybe him and Mike have got together.

Yeah. And, but, mark, web dev, sorry. Sorry, Ollie, I should say as saying, why would a block theme need a charting? that was what I thought. That's the bit that puzzles me. Ollie. I don't know why it would need a child theme, but there it is. You can, you can go and check it out.

sign up. Join the wait list. And you too, you can find out. Okay. Should we get into the, thing that never was the, the bit that kept everybody awake during the course of this week, the PHP. Oh, how many hours were wasted? I put a tweet out this week, which was very, it's probably it. I say it was a tweet.

It wasn't a tweet, it was out on LinkedIn. I don't use LinkedIn very much. And so if I put a message out on LinkedIn, typically, I don't know, 10 impressions or 20 impressions, this one had 6,000 or something, which for me was in a bit of an anomaly. And all I basically said was, do we need to start thinking about, and I didn't say the word regulation, but do we need.

To really rethink what's, available to everybody all the time. Because my understanding is that during the course of last week, somebody from a software company, and I've forgotten the name, basically pointed their inexpensive AI at PHP and said, find me a vulnerability. That's my understanding. it was a, a simple little request and the AI went, oh yeah, we'd love to do that.

And then found what on the face of it was about the most catastrophic problem we could possibly have that then leaked. And so what was supposed to be a normal release cycle and the hosts were supposed to be updated, it went out in the wild. It had a CVE score of 9.2. Although people like Patch Stack were saying this is a 10.

and I dunno if any of you are managing own servers, but it felt to me like Tuesday and Wednesday almost everybody in our industry stopped working and did patching of their PHPs of their servers and made sure that everything was okay. I don't know if that was the case where you are, let's tackle that first.

Did you any of you three spend time faffing with this? I know I did. In my case, my host mainly took care of it, but it was still on a few. I've got a few little servers dotted around the place. I had to get those all fixed. Dave did you like,

[01:16:33] Dave Grey: oh, my staff should manage places. So one post is behind CloudFlare that put the interim rules in to try and stop that to go through and the other one's got their own bit to, can look after, but yes, it's checking through every like half hour to see if any version numbers have changed on anything on that side or through

I think the more the fallout for that bit. It's one of my other customers kinda like enterprise level on there and all of their end customers then got in contact with their operations person to say, have you been affected by this bit? So I then got about three different emails from three different people with is your supplier affected by so and Is there third or fourth party of blah blah blah on that? is the WordPress brochure website. I think they're over blowing it a bit on that side through. But yeah, it's basically the following day that had more aftermath from everyone else thinking, are we affected by this bit? To then say this has already been covered on there.

You don't need to panic on that side to come through. But yeah, it's come a bit Y 2K was it less of an issue because people have put things in place and got the patches down quickly? Or if you just did the whole, oh it's not a major problem and then half the internet melted, it'd be like whoops.

[01:17:36] Nathan Wrigley: Oh yeah. The reporting very much felt like this is gonna be an absolute nightmare if you don't get this fixed. people are gonna be able to basically go into your server, take control of it and do whatever the heck they like. That was how it was being portrayed. As luck would have it, it would appear that because of a variety of different things, like you've gotta perfectly time things to happen in coincidence with other things and a bunch of other, constraints.

It didn't turn out that way. And we'll get to that in a moment. But anyway, my message that went out on LinkedIn was like, is this normal? is it okay that an AI can go and cause this chaos, lose countless thousands of people, probably millions of hours of time and is that all right or do we need to have some of this regulated?

And I prefaced it with, I do not have the answer. I don't know what it is, but I am not allowed to sell medicine for a blooming good reason. 'cause I would be killing people, I'd give out all the wrong medicine to all the wrong people 'cause I don't know what the heck I'm doing. So years and years ago, governments decided that stuff we're not gonna make it possible.

And I'm wondering if the state of AI now is such that. We do need to regulate it a little bit. there needs to be some consequence to this. I don't know, I don't have the answer. Ollie's saying that he spent all day updating PHP and on VPS server. So you lost a day. I wonder how many people like you lost a day and it wasn't your fault, you didn't do anything wrong.

And yet somehow this thing escaped into the wild. who's this, is Mark Zain. If you were with a managed WordPress host, and they didn't solve it, surely it's worth moving otherwise, what is the managed part? Yeah, good point. and then we've got Mark also saying, was it AI that caused it or the human that leaked it?

You know what? I think you could cut that both ways. It was both. I don't think the humans could have done it without the ai. is one thing that I would say,

[01:19:48] Ivana Ćirković: but I puzzled by the prompt itself. It literally said find bad vulnerabilities in PHP. It was that like, and it was something that was buried for years and years.

Yeah. And

[01:20:01] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Yeah.

[01:20:02] Ivana Ćirković: Like in, and, I dunno, it's very, in WP Baker, we like, our dev team, were on top of everything. We work with Patch Stack to secure, everything in place. We just, wanted to, update our, client base. So we created an article around it with, what, should be the recommended steps, how to tackle everything.

So we rolled out that, we rolled out newsletter to inform everyone so it wasn't

[01:20:37] Nathan Wrigley: right. Like I

[01:20:38] Ivana Ćirković: task for

[01:20:39] Nathan Wrigley: us. The amount of time that you spent doing that as a company let's, it's, several dozens of hours probably, and quite a bit of anxiety and heartache and worry and all of that. It turned out, it, didn't, it wasn't that big of a deal.

But you do wonder, like the next time, I think basically what I'm trying to say is imagine the day when it really is bad. When it really is bad and your health service goes offline, your bank stops working, yada, yada. just invent a cataclysm of things that could happen at that point. We're all gonna be going, oh, we had the warning signs, didn't we?

We knew this sort of thing was possible. Maybe we should have done something about ai. And as I said, I don't have the answer.

[01:21:26] Ivana Ćirković: Yeah.

[01:21:26] Nathan Wrigley: But,

[01:21:27] Ivana Ćirković: mark has a

[01:21:28] Nathan Wrigley: really worried me

[01:21:28] Ivana Ćirković: question. AI finding problems is a bad thing. Question mark. No, it is not. It's the, yeah. Human thing. Human parting not foreseeing that and having to have artificial intelligence point out.

So what other things they can like. Discover before we do. Yeah. So that was a security issue on its own.

[01:21:54] Nathan Wrigley: Everything that Mark says. Totally scans, right? Yeah, it's completely true. Like it isn't the AI's fault, the AI just found the bad thing because it was told to find the bad thing. Like it, all of it's true, and I do not have the answers, but I, feel like we dodged a bullet this week.

and it could have been a lot worse. and I guess there's a bit of me, which is just that if we get into a scenario where this thing's happening more and more frequently, which I think everybody in the security industry would say is true. I was chatting to somebody this week who, is in the WordPress security industry and the broader, internet security industry, and they're basically saying it's not fun anymore.

Yeah. The, the fun has gone out of this. It's now just brutal from top to bottom. So I don't have the answer. I'm just raising what I think might be the problem. Patricia says that she, servers with X Cloud and the PHP was available, the patch was available immediately. So that's nice.

And back to what you said earlier, there are many good reasons for, oh, okay. Yeah, there we go. There are good. So block themes. There's a good reason to have block themes and, Patricia is actually building one. Thank you. It sounds like you're asking for these vulnerabilities not to be discovered. Yeah. It does sound like that, doesn't it?

I agree. I think

[01:23:12] Michelle Frechette: it's more don't disclose them until we have a solution.

[01:23:16] Nathan Wrigley: I do. You know what? I don't know. I, genuinely don't know. I, suppose it comes down to a phrase like this, when normal humans have God-like powers, which I think you could argue AI in some senses does. Do some of those humans do stuff, which we've wished they didn't.

And if some humans with God-like powers can do some things, which we all wish they hadn't done, the only recourse you've got is either to figure out who the heck these people are, which you can't do, or to dial in what the AI is capable of, which we seem to be unwilling to do because we all see how incredible AI is in so many other areas.

And so it's this difficult, managing thing, and I'm just playing it forward, whoa, where will we be the day after the real absolute nightmare? Where will we be? What will we be saying to ourselves? And all of the arguments will sound fairly hollow at that point, but we're not there yet.

[01:24:23] Michelle Frechette: but I think with ai, we also still have that trust but verify. because like it wasn't just last week. Yeah. That on the ninth I think it was that, Claude sent a notification to a police station that they had a tip on solving an unsolved mystery, and it was just fake Everything was wrong.

[01:24:43] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[01:24:43] Michelle Frechette: And it, apparently did, it on its own. So we have to just be really careful.

[01:24:48] Nathan Wrigley: I'm just confused by it all. Yeah. I'm just confused by all. I definitely don't have the answer. And Mark, everything that you say checks out. you're completely true. We want these vulnerabilities to be discovered and patched and Yeah, it's just the speed at which they happen and, also the lack of, the lack of prior, prior investment you might need to have.

So as an example, the PHP vulnerability, maybe that would've just taken a really skilled human being, a very long time to stumble across. And in this case, it was the, the nature of the prompt, it was like, just find me a vulnerability in PHP. And off you go. as we're saying here, though, Ollie's saying, not heard of a single site.

No. And it turns out it was a, it really didn't pan out that way, did it? You probably could have left all of your servers just as they were the day before and nothing would've happened because of the, the nature of it. In fact, somebody over the weekend, I dunno if you saw this, somebody put $2,000 worth of Bitcoin on a vulnerable server and said.

It's yours. If you can compromise with PPHP to Shell, you can have the $2,000. And it took, over a day for one individual to get there. which demonstrates, how difficult this was to exploit. I don't have the answer. and ai, no. It was a human, wasn't it? It wasn't an AI that disclosed, it says Mark.

it was a human being. That's my understanding as well. anyway, so this post is the Atlantic write up where they basically say that, in all the panic, we ended up relying on whoever that Andre and Andre Andrey. so he suddenly went into the limelight and by all accounts it was just like, really calm, just oh, I'll do what I can do, it'd be fine.

this was the post that the PHP foundation put out, which we were all staring at hoping for our, PHP version to tick over to whatever was safe at some point. And then Mark Moner, who's the, the co-founder, the founder, I dunno if he's a founder of, Wordfence. This is a, a day later basically saying there is nobody exploiting this, is, sounded like a nightmare, but, he's tagging people from Patch Stack and Matt Mullenweg, and he's basically saying it, it sounded like a nightmare, but really nothing happened.

yeah, so there you go. the sort of security vulnerability that never was. However, there were others. rank Math has had a problem this week. So if you've got Rank Math going on any website, make sure to get that checked. And also Updraft, plus or Updraft Central at a fairly severe one as well.

So if you running either of those two plugins, you might wanna, might want to check that out, particularly the updraft one, because they had a problem with their keys and it feels like the only way to fix it is to rotate the keys. It's, you can't fix it by, updating the plugin or anything like that, is my understanding of it.

Anyway, so I don't have the answer. I. I, feel like the AI stuff is gonna be more, more interesting in the days, weeks, and months to come. I think that's it. Were there any comments in that as you scroll by that I missed Michelle or anybody else? Did we get on? No, I

[01:28:16] Michelle Frechette: think we're good.

[01:28:17] Nathan Wrigley: Got 'em. Okay, great. In which case, we'll knock it on the head. We will say a great thank you. We've gotta do the waving. I will not forget that, but I'll save my thank yous first. thank you Michelle. Thanks for joining me. Thanks Dave. And thanks for Ivana. Hope you all feel like you can come on another time.

and also thank you to you if you made a comment or we're just lurking around in the background and didn't make a comment, but, enjoyed the show. Great. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining us. That's lovely. So Ivana, you may or may not know we do this slightly il Oh, alright. Sto, I've

[01:28:53] Ivana Ćirković: been a long time.

[01:28:55] Nathan Wrigley: Whoa.

[01:28:56] Dave Grey: Michelle,

[01:28:56] Nathan Wrigley: what the heck album?

What Howie Is that? A Mac

[01:29:03] Ivana Ćirković: That is a surprise now that,

[01:29:05] Nathan Wrigley: is a

[01:29:05] Michelle Frechette: surprise. Yeah, if you do these hands with a Mac. And if you've got this, if you've got it turned on and I'm

[01:29:12] Nathan Wrigley: gonna, let me turn that on. Hang on. How do I do that? Do

[01:29:14] Michelle Frechette: my heart. Where do

[01:29:15] Nathan Wrigley: I go?

[01:29:16] Michelle Frechette: I don't know. I never turned mine off, so I don't know how to turn it on.

[01:29:19] Nathan Wrigley: No, I've got options, but I can't figure out amazing how to make them work. Amazing. So I should I just leave it? Look at her now, but

[01:29:26] Ivana Ćirković: she's already coming up with new things and this

[01:29:29] Nathan Wrigley: star.

[01:29:30] Ivana Ćirković: Interesting.

[01:29:31] Nathan Wrigley: We're just doing the old thing, but there you go. Thank you so much for joining us. if the three of you want to hang out for a minute afterwards, that's lovely, but I'll end the show now.

Let me just find the right button. Yeah. All right. So we'll see you next week for this week in workplace. Bye everybody. Take it easy. Bye-bye. Bye-Bye bye.