This Week in WordPress #316

[00:00:04] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this week in WordPress. Episode number 316, entitled The Kyle Van Deusen episode. It was recorded on Monday the 25th of November, 2024. My name's Nathan Wrigley and I'll be joined today by three fabulous people.

I'm joined by Mark Westguard by Maddy Osman and by Cami MacNamara. We're here to talk about WordPress. So that's what we do.

However, right at the beginning, we get derailed and talk about all of the things which are on our desk, including a fun button which Cami has to make herself feel better.

Getting onto WordPress things. We talk about the collaboration efforts in WordPress's Gutenberg project. It's the third phase, and it's all about Google Docs style collaboration. How is that going?

We're also talking about the 6.8 release. WordPress 6.7 is just landed, but of course we have to keep the project going forward, and so we need people to volunteer for 6.8.

Loads of people seem to be moving to Bluesky, and I have a starter pack for you, if you want to follow a bunch of WordPressers.

There's a load of events going on, PressConf, which is a new event, but also WordCamp Asia. We have some updates on those.

Do you want two rockets? now you can. rocket.net is joining WP Rocket to make your websites on their platform even quicker than they were before.

Winstina Hughes is the recipient of the Yoast Care Fund.

And I drone on and on about how much I like GenerateBlocks and how much it has changed my web building endeavors.

And then we get onto talk about towards the end, just Kyle Van Deusen over and over again.

Finally finishing with a little bit about AI and a new product called Fluent Community.

It's all coming up next. On this week in WordPress.

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Hello? Hello there. Hi. Hello. Hello. Good morning. yeah. Good Mor. Yeah, no, it's the, it's well into the afternoon here, but yes, good morning to you. It's really morning here. Yeah, it's really morning for Cammi. Honestly. Camie. Has no business being awake at this hour. if I was coming, I'd go right back to bed, frankly.

feel free to fall asleep during this conversation. That'd be hysterical actually. Just convers. Normally I dim. Yeah, just slowly, just side off and ki on your desk. That'd be really good. it's this week in WordPress number 316. Thank you for joining us. I'll just get the housekeeping preliminary bits out the way, if that's all right.

so if you are joining us, there could be a whole different variety of places where you're joining us. We go out onto all these different platforms. Honestly, though, the best place to end up is YouTube or here. WP build.com/live. We embed the video from the platform. Look at him. He's such a pro. Mark's doing the business with his fingers, showing the lower third.

That's Maddy's giving it a go Figure out. Yeah. WP build.com/live. If you go there and you're logged into a Google account, you can use the comments 'cause it's a YouTube commenting system. Alternatively, if you don't have a Google account or you dislike Google, then head to that page again. And in the video itself, embedded in the video, top right is a little box which says live chat.

And if you click on the live chat. You will be able to, yeah. Guess what? Do a bit of live chat and and you don't need to be logged into anything, so that's nice. So yeah, WP builds.com/live. Come and say hello. We typically have a few people at the start telling us things like what the weather is like.

We'll find out about that in a moment. I am sure. Let's go round the panelists. there he is. Right there. That's it. It's Mark West Guard, guardian of the west. That's it. Still guarding it. Yeah, still guarding it all these years. I know. how's it going? good. Very good. Yeah. Bit, little bit tired, but, I'm good by some.

[00:06:08] Mark Westguard: I woke up, I went to bed early last night, which is unusual for me, as Yeah. And, I thought, I'll get an early night ready for this week in WordPress. And then my son came running down the stairs screaming at his friends saying, I'm gonna, I make some eggs. 11:00 PM Nice. There's, worse ways to be woken up, but that's, still pretty bad, I'd say.

But I'm there. I'm good. I'm alive. It's all good. I really hate eggs as well. That would've really annoying. I know you do. Yeah. I really don't like eggs, so that would really have annoying. I never get a breakfast. I never have gotten over that. Also, you're in dark mode. Normally we see Mark in a white T-shirt with a WS form logo, but today he's gone.

[00:06:45] Nathan Wrigley: He's clicked the toggle. He's gone dark, flipped. Yeah. Yeah, he's flipped it. your biography simply says TBD. anything you wanna add to that? Oh, we're not really, no. Okay. So he's our founder of WS form. That's it. There we go. Mark, west Guard, founder of WS form. Anything else is still.

To be decided. That's right, but we're joined by two other people as well. We've got Mad Osmond over there. Hi. Mad. Hello. How's it going? Yeah, really nice. Have you been on this show before Maddy? Once. It was probably a year or two ago. Oh, okay, great. you do know the ropes a little bit, but as you can see, mad is the founder of the Blog Smith Content Agency.

She is also the bestselling author. This is, I love it. When we have authors on of writing for humans and robots, the new rules of content style, methodologies have earned a spot in SEM Rushes and Buzz Sumos top 100 Content Marketers and the Right Life's 100 best websites for writers. She has spoken for audiences at Word Camp us and Denver Digital Summit is is writing your life, do you do write writing, I don't know, novels and stuff like that?

Or is it mainly to do with tech and things? so writing is like the focus of my agency. I am doing this month nano rmo. If anybody's heard of it, it's like November. You focus, you try to get a bunch of words written for different projects. I haven't been terribly good about it, but a little more writing than usual this month.

I've started that project probably four years in a row, and I get to day one and don't write a word. Yep. That's, what happens entirely consistent. And then I get to about this point in November, and I always think it would've been so easy every day. There was plenty of time I should have done it. I could have anyway, never do.

[00:08:37] Maddy Osman: That's what you think. And then life gets in the way. Life gets in the way. Yeah. thank you mad for joining us. Really appreciate it. And as we said, our final panelists today at Stupid o'clock. What is it? Is it five in the morning or something? It's 6:08 AM Oh, I feel bad for you. I'm so sorry. Okay.

[00:08:55] Nathan Wrigley: It's, I usually, I'm at the gym and I'm just listening and I'm not like needing to speak, so It's okay. Oh yeah, that's true. I think last week you were joining us from the gym in the comments, I think. Yeah, Okay. okay. I don't feel quite so bad. You're normally up and about. Yeah, it's okay.

It, I just got up a little bit earlier than normal. We appreciate it. Kami is the owner of Web Cammie, LLCA one person web design agency. She's also the author of WP Habits, which is a newsletter, Michelle in Oh, that we've just said about skipping the gym. hopefully, Kami is joining us with a strong cup of coffee.

What have we all got to drink today? What we all, what are we all drinking? I had a water and I've lost it. How, can I lose a glass of it's actually not here. I held it up for you. Didn't I? A minute ago. I'm on the, literally gone. I'm, almost done with this one, but I have a backup. Okay. That how cool you go.

Cammy's got the coffee. Maddie's got, what have you got there? Just a giant, I think there's lead poisoning inside.

Aw, lead poisoning water. And Mark, you're on the coffees. Are you? Yeah, I'm on, DI don't do, caffeine anymore. It gives me the shake. So I'm on a decaf coffee. Okay. My wife has started drinking this thing. And is it called chalk? Is it is not chalk? Ch chalk something? It's a no. Okay. We will end it there.

I'm not gonna pursue that. I can't even remember what the thing's called. But you add this powder in and it looks like hot chocolate, but it's really bitter and and it's a replacement for her, for caffeine and she's really enjoying doing it. So there you go. You should google the word that. I don't even know what it is.

And see what it is. Try Yeah, try it. So let's see. Chat. We have chicory. Is it? Yeah. You Chocolate. Maybe Chicory. No, I can't. I think I know what you're talking about. we've been joined by Courtney. Yes. Who says Happy Monday Indeed. Courtney? happy Monday. James Low's joining us, saying Good morning, Marcus Burnett.

I. Now with Blue Host. Must remember that. good morning. Happy, Thanksgiving week in the us. Only a handful more of these for 2024. Yes. Tha thank goodness is what you are thinking. That's, what you're thinking there. Appreciate that. Maddy, how's the little one going? Doing Yes, guessing your, I'm hoping you can't hear him because he's getting ready for daycare.

[00:11:23] Maddy Osman: But Courtney, to your point, yes he is. Actually sleeping through the night these days, so I can Nice. Actually do more things. Okay. You got a little one? That's nice. Okay. congratulations. He's about, congratulations. 14 months old. This, week. Oh, so there's a possibility of sleeping through. That's quite kind of nice.

[00:11:41] Nathan Wrigley: There's a possibility. There is a possibility. We'll see. Good morning. Says Michelle Ette. It's 37 degrees or three degrees centigrade in sunny Rochester where she's enjoying a really good cup of coffee. David Bell's joining us and this is great. I love the weather thing. in Boston it's 41 degrees Fahrenheit or five degrees centigrade.

Highs, lows, the whole lot. We've got the humidity in everything in there. Wind of 13 miles an hour well covered. Great. I love it. I don't know what it is here. I'm reckoning. It's about eight degrees. Here centigrade, the sensible unit of measurement of temperature and the rest of it, I don't know, I couldn't tell you.

However, there's a bit of a gimmick for this particular show. I thought we'd start the show with something that we don't normally do, and that is a what is on your desk feature. And I thought let's try that. And so I've asked each of the panelists if they've got something on their desk, I'll start us off.

this is apropos of absolutely nothing. I can't show it to you, but if you haven't got one, it's really cool. It's by a company called El Gato and it's called a stream deck. And it's a little, it looks like a little keyboard, but, ah, mark. Excellent. That's what I've got. But, Marx is obviously on a slightly longer chord than mine is.

and you can map it to do certain things. So for example, like this is mapped. If I press this button or the lights go out. And if I press it again or the, that kind of thing and you can do it to start applications, close applications, things like that. I really recommend it. I use it all the time.

But Mark's got one and he says he only uses one button. I just use this button. Oh, is that the same thing? Lights. You got the lights going on. I've got it so that I can change the sort of like the, temperature. So if I turn it on, I can go like real bright. You probably can't tell, but yeah, it's going down, down.

Can tell down, down. You can change the sort of temperature. So I can make it like w whoa. It's like I'm in, oh, look at that. Or going white. Yeah. So it's, I love it. But you can map it to just anything on your computer and it's genuinely really, cool. I love it a lot. So highly recommended. So let's go round the, let's go round, let's start with Maddy.

What have you got? What's on your desk? Okay, I'll show you. it's got a lot of writing on it, but you won't be able to de decipher, but it's, It's called a desk board buddy. And so it's like a place where you can just scratch your notes when you're on a call, like a dry erase thing. Oh, cool. And then it also has a calculator.

[00:14:06] Maddy Osman: Oh, cool. Because it can't do math. and then you can, so is that, put stuff in a Sharpie pen that you write and then when you finish you just rub it down and, yeah, It's just, like your catchall place. Like when you're on calls, you gotta do some calculations, you gotta write down some details, you gotta store some stuff, you wanna have some mints at hand.

[00:14:30] Nathan Wrigley: I still use pencil and paper. You could, do that. I can't get away from this stuff no matter how tech I wanna be. I'm the same. You gotta have the paper, haven't you? It's just so it's so much quicker to each their own. Yeah, each their own. I just, I really like, but that's nice. That's a nice little thing to have around.

Yeah. Cool. Thank you. What about you Cammy? What's on? Oh, we, you showed us a minute ago. This is cool. It's a badass button. Badass button. It's for when I feel overwhelmed and I just, you're a badass. Tell myself that because I'm feeling overwhelmed. That's so good. It's like an affirmation button. When you're feeling a bit down in the dumps.

You just whack the button. That's right. I thought it was gonna be some sort of Derry thing. we don't really use the word badass here. Maybe we do. I dunno. But it's not something I'm familiar with, but, okay. I'll try it. That's cool. That's cool. You need a button? What about you, mark? What you got lying around?

[00:15:29] Mark Westguard: I dunno. I was. Dig out the Nathan Head, but Oh, no, Got a pair of scissors. Pair of scissors. Okay. Enough. I've got a coaster. Can't live without coaster. Yeah. I have to have coasters. Yeah. I would say probably my laptop. I'm just, I'm glue to my laptop 24 7. I can't live without it. I've got my entire life on that thing.

[00:15:52] Nathan Wrigley: I have bottle openers, loads of USB sticks, tons of batteries. Posted notes everywhere. Yeah. Like absolutely. If I've got a wall behind me and it's just free glasses. Follow of the post-It notes. It's all about the editing. Okay. So thank you. Oh, that was interesting. Thank you, cacao. That's it. You go. That's what it is, cacao.

Thanks, Elliot. That's the, way to do it. we've, what's it called When you do that, you crowdsource the problem and Elliot's come through with the answer. and he says it's cold where the cape is. And on my desk, Elliot says, is a mini aai MIDI keyboard. Ooh, nice little keyboard. We've gotta get you on, Elliot, so that you can play it.

Courtney has a stream deck on the desk too. Do you have a button for sheep, puppies, and kitties? I do have a button for sheep, puppies, and kitties. And it looks a bit like this. Let me find it.

I, actually do have a button for sheep kittens and yeah. Anyway, that's weird. thank you. Thanks for that. That's when the drama comes over. That's right, Dave. We do that when we need to calm down. it's a minute and a half of nothing but furry animals. Mark West Guard, is that a cat's task Keyboard.

Is that, that Kat's task? I don't get that. Do you get that? No, Okay. Sorry James. You might have to explain that. I have a Mary Antoinette doll on my desk, but I've replaced their head with a swirl head. I wanna see that. It's funny. hello? Everybody says, Patricia, this platform doesn't do so well with the emojis.

You just get the, you get the text variant of it. So I'm guessing it was the little waving hand. oh, bless you, Cameron's popping in, no doubt wearing his WP Engine regalia. I dunno if you saw that in the news this week on the repository. Anyway, I'll leave you to go and investigate, but thanks for joining us, Cameron.

I know it's the wrong end of the day for you, but I really appreciate it. Okay. Should we get on? Let's get onto the work. Let's do it stuff for this week. Here we go. So this is us wp builds.com, if you fan, see subscribing to the bits and pieces that we do. Put your email address into this little field here and click subscribe.

We'll send you a couple of emails a week one when we produce this. So after this has been recorded, I'll take the audio out and make it into a podcast episode and that'll come out tomorrow morning. And so we'll tell you when that happens. But also on a Thursday we do a regular podcast episode with just me and one other person, typically interviewing them.

So it's not a panel like this. The most recent of which, was this one with a chap who you may have heard of. He's called Yost, although it's spelt like that, is Yost. Deval. And he founded the company Yost, but he's no longer with Yost, but he did found Yost and he's called Yost and it's highly confusing.

but we talked about his new thing. He's got a new product called, project Planner. And Maddy, you're gonna love it because it has a dry wipeable booklet that you can get to go with it. Yeah, exactly. You get the shout and what he's trying to do, it's such a cool idea. He re, he's realized and he's right, that for people who are maintaining websites, basically it's really boring.

if you are tasked with the job at your company of keeping the website updated, that laundry list of tasks is probably gonna go on the back burner. And every Friday you'll beat yourself up. 'cause you never did the things that your boss wanted you to do. So he's gamified it and he's made this plugin where you feed in all the things that you need to do.

It'll gamify it for you. And there is a component where you've got this dry wipeable book and you can scan it with a mobile phone and it'll turn the things that you've handwritten into tasks inside your WP admin. And then you go through them, give yourself a pat on the back, get badges and stuff like that.

Anyway, it's called Progress Planner. And, we talked about that. It's him and his team. It's not just him that's building it, but, yeah, he was the person that I was chatting to, so that was cool. That was episode number 399, which guess what, the next episode is gonna be. I bet you can't do the math 400.

That's quite significant. I've no idea why. I'm not gonna do anything different, but it is significant. so that'll be nice. And then w look at this. WPS WP Builds, black Friday, page we now have on this page, th I'm just looking at the WP Admin 359. Wow. Press deals all on this one page. That's, and it's sponsored by WS form.

Thank you, mark. Appreciate it. You're welcome. Real cookie, banner and gravity forms. And if you scroll down, you get this search filter thing. 'cause obviously 360 odd deals on one page is pretty hard to manage. That's cool. You can realize you had that. Yeah. You, click this like filter button. And then, I don't know, let's type in Ws.

I'm imagining there won't be too many things with Ws in them. It turns out there are oh yeah. Ws there. Look. But you can see that if we want to Yeah, there you go. Ws form 30% deal. And then you can go in discount, reset. Put the percentage discount in if you like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And it's all there. So all the Black Friday deals that I have managed to find, they're all on this one page. As I said, it's a bit overwhelming. So use the search and filter. If you happen to be in the WordPress space and you've got a deal, click on that and I'll add it for free. There's no affiliate link or anything required.

Just stick it in there. If you find something that's broken, use that instead. And if you wanna sign up for email updates, then you can do that as well. When we get those deals, we'll, we'll let you know. So there you go. Ws form is our sponsor, along with real cookie, banner and gravity form. Thank you so much.

And WP builds.com/black is the link for that. Okay, that's enough Self-promotion. Does anybody wanna promote anything quickly? 'cause I've done my bit now. Mark, apart from your deal on Black Friday, anything Kami, Maddy? we've, I could say that we've got the, new Ws form Styler coming as well, so Ooh, tell us more cheeky.

[00:22:09] Mark Westguard: That's good. Yeah. Yeah. it's, something we've been working on for a long time and, it's, it basically enables you to style forms in a much better way. It uses CSS variables if you're familiar with those. So it just makes it a lot, easier to add your colors to your forms and, your typography and stuff.

And, we've got that coming out hopefully by the end of the year. It's, going through testing right now, but, we did do a little video about it, so if you go on our YouTube channel, you can, look at that and, See it in its glory. Mark is being typically fairly humble about it. it's actually really, impressive.

[00:22:50] Nathan Wrigley: I think it's fair to say, mark, that if it's on anywhere on the page, you can style it individually, right? Yeah. There's more or less every single thing can be styled to within an inch of its life. So it's not just like that. You can do it very easily. So you can choose all your Yeah, your, your primary, your text color, your background color and stuff like that.

[00:23:07] Mark Westguard: But then it drills down, there's actually about 400 different settings in this thing. Wow. to go very, grand. You can go right down to the calendar day and, style that. so it's pretty cool and I'm looking forward to getting that launch because it's something that we've been meaning to do for a long time.

And yeah. You were using the customizer before, which had limited Yeah. Options. Yeah, we did that. we basically went to WordPress and said, what should we use? They're like, yeah, use customizer for now. 'cause we started WS four just when Gutenberg was being. Starting to be produced. so we're pleased to have this whole new starting system coming out now, which is gonna get us where we need to be.

[00:23:46] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I'll, I'll put the link if you are willing for me to share that YouTube video. Yeah, absolutely. Then, yeah. Okay. In which case I'll put the link in, to the show notes, which will come out tomorrow and you can check it out. It's loads. I've got a sneak peek of it and it's absolutely everything.

Yeah. So check that out. Maddy, Kami, anything you wanna plug? I have something to promote, but it's not live yet. Go on. I have a LinkedIn learning course coming out that, rumor has, it is very similar to the subject of my book, humans and Robots. Nice. Writing for Humans and Robots. So it's all about writing for the web.

Oh, okay. And that what the course is gonna follow broadly, the outline of the book that's already in your hands. Pretty much, yep. All about balancing the needs of the humans and the robots in your life and making them both love you. Ooh, I can't wait. That's cool. Do you mean when you say robots, 'cause obviously, I mean it sounds fun, but do you mean basically search engines?

Is that what you are implying by that? Typically, yes, there is. something that I didn't cover in my book was about the ai, intersection here. And so there are some new, there is some new material about that. Okay. Oh yeah, of course. Yeah. That's probably changed a lot since your book was published.

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Okay, so that'll be a new course coming out soon from Madi. Keep your eyes peeled for that. And Kami, anything. I have my newsletter, habits wp.com. You can sign up. Issue 48 went out this week. I only have four more this year, but we're just gonna start it all over in January.

[00:25:23] Cami MacNamara: And, I created it because as a web designer working for myself, it's really hard to do a full blown course on running my business. So it's just one little thing each week, and if you master those habits, your business is gonna run a little easier. Nice. Okay. So we've all had something to show off about.

[00:25:43] Nathan Wrigley: That's really nice. Okay, great. I feel much better about my, my own self-promotion in that case. Okay. Here we go. Let's start on the, real meat and the potatoes, as it were. make WordPress core, blog this, it wasn't exactly a week ago, it was a few days ago. Ann McCarthy posted this, Update called phase three, or rather update on phase three collaboration efforts. And actually on this podcast a little, a few weeks ago, we did share a few bits and pieces, but some of the detail is becoming a bit clearer about something else, but I'll just quickly share that. I didn't know this fact, automatic has sponsored, A chap called Kevin Jar Johns, I'm gonna say J-A-H-N-S. he's the author of YJSA popular framework for collaborative A applications. So obviously there's, absolutely boatloads of experience there. And, Ann has shared some prototypes. We, this is what we shared last time, and this is a video that you can see again, links in the show notes and you can see not quite real time collaborate collaboration.

This is every three seconds the server gets pulled and what's on one screen, updates on what's on the other screen. So it's, it's the beginnings of such things. However, the bit that we didn't mention last time. Which is a big part of something like Google Docs is this inline collaboration, sorry, inline commenting thing.

And I'll just make the images bigger. And you can see, I imagine the, giant in the room here, the elephant in the room, if you like, is Google Docs, isn't it? And it's capability to add comments and reply to comments and then assign them as, I don't know, Don or what have you. And you can see here in this screenshot, very similar approach.

Highlight some text, click on the little hamburger icon, click add, comment, and then add a comment. And it gets assigned to that portion of highlighted text and you can see other people have commented on the screen that we're looking at. And then you can reply to a comment. so you've got comments nested under the other comments.

And then you've got the option here to, all the ones that have been resolved. You can show those. And then finally, I can't remember what this last image is, but it just shows two show resolved and show something else. Can't show mine. Yeah, I think it says mine as in my own comments. So that is looking really good.

I'm not entirely sure if it's, if it's as useful as it would be in Google Docs, but there we go. That's that's what's going on. And there's some other things about the data views, but I thought that was the most interesting bit. I typically, when I'm working, I do everything by myself, so I am not the audience for this, but Maddie, especially, I'm imagining as a writer, collaboration inside a word.

Is that a feature that you long for? Is that of any use to you? there's been so many features I feel like that have tried to work around this in WordPress in the past, so I think there is a desire for it. I think the real question is if it's too late, because everybody's already, they've built their behaviors around Google Docs and like the one thing that I don't notice that I use every day is the suggested at it's feature.

[00:28:55] Maddy Osman: So to be able to not only add a comment, but to be able to adjust text, but show what you're making suggestions over. so yeah, for like my team, the, what I'm seeing so far, which is promising, it would, it still wouldn't necessarily work for us in our workflow. What would hold you back? What would be the thing that would, keep you in Google Docs as opposed to doing it inside a WordPress?

[00:29:18] Nathan Wrigley: Pretty, pretty much that suggested at its feature. So instead of just adding comments with being able to add detail. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Mark. Kami? Anything? Yeah, I think, I think Matt's right. I think that, like when I produce a blog post right now, I tend to do it in Google Docs with somebody else and we edit stuff online.

[00:29:41] Mark Westguard: Yeah, it's called the, it's, just an easy thing to get into as well. You can almost single click into it and not have to log into WordPress or anything. but hey, if they can pull it across into WordPress itself, that would be great. That would make it a lot easier, so I don't have to go into two different places.

How's your experience of getting it from Google Docs into WordPress? Does it map I don't know, like list items? Do they come out perfectly formatted, or is it I usually copy it into a text editor and then restyle it. Oh, really? Yeah. Maybe I'm doing the wrong thing, but because I find it, I just don't, yeah, I guess I'm, back in the old classic editor mindset where you used to paste it in and put all kinds of funny stuff in there.

but yeah. Yeah, I think, if they, can pull it off, that would be great. It's a lot of work to get this working. it's gonna be a massive mountain to climb. It's not an easy problem to solve. and an interesting one because you're gonna be, within a WordPress site, so I guess you're gonna have to be logged into the WordPress site to, to use it.

Whereas with Google, it's a more of a SaaS solution, so you can come in from anywhere. Yeah. So yeah, I'd be, it'll be interesting to see how this, turns out. I'm looking forward to seeing it. I wonder if it's got any legs for editing things like themes or what have you, because I, know obviously the application for text based editing is really obvious 'cause Google Docs does that.

[00:31:06] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. like how Figma is, like real time and you can really see what the other people are doing and their at curses move around and stuff. Yeah. I wonder if you could have something like that. You could be editing a, page layout or a template at the same time. I just don't know if it lends itself to that or if that's just way too many things to go wrong.

Go wrong. I guess it could, it's, it could almost bleed into the editoring world, couldn't it? Yeah. In terms of like collaborative editing of web pages and stuff. that'll be interesting. 'cause a blog post at the end of the day in WordPress is just a, in the layout editor, so you could use it for images and anything.

[00:31:42] Mark Westguard: I would imagine so. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Kami, anything? I work for myself as well, so I can see it being great for a big agency that have several people working in development. it would be a nightmare for me to have all my clients start leaving me messages and in their WordPress website, oh no, that would, but I see the need for it.

[00:32:07] Cami MacNamara: It just isn't something that I'm going to use. Yeah. Yeah. That's the interesting bit. I, can see that. In a, in the modern world, nobody can live without collaborative editing. 'cause my kids have been born into a world where that's normal. Where I remember the first time seeing it and just thinking, that's unbelievably cool.

[00:32:27] Nathan Wrigley: And now it's not even slightly cool. It's just that's what it, that's what modern text editing does, right? You can see what people are doing in real time. And I almost wonder if it's just a bit of that keeping up with the Joneses As opposed to actually needing it. I'm trying to imagine a scenario where really if it was tech space, you wouldn't prefer Google Docs.

But then the, there's a lot to catch up on with this, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Lots. It seems like the bigger problem to solve is taking something from Google Docs into WordPress and craving an integrator for that. That actually works because I've tried a bunch and, the problem is how they handle images because.

[00:33:09] Maddy Osman: If you're trying to approach it from an SEO and an accessibility perspective, you wanna name them a certain way and taking it from Google Docs is just gonna assign it, whatever. Google Docs uploaded that image as it doesn't understand what the image is necessarily. So whoever figures out that component and combines it with like the existing technology of giving to from Google Docs to WordPress, that's something I wanna use.

[00:33:35] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it'd be interesting with things like playground as well. If you could spin up a, like just a disposable editor. I don't know. The possibilities with things like playground are pretty interesting. Like in the same way that you start up a Google meet and the Google meet that you have now is not usable in 10 minutes time.

'cause you closed it down and now the link's been destroyed. You could do the same thing with documents. Couldn't you just start spin ups? And I, just can't quite see the need for it. I can see the need for it, obviously, but IC I'm struggling to see how it's gonna compete in the marketplace against Google Docs for text editing.

But the, I. Yeah, the bit about editing templates and things is interesting. Anyway, back on the screen, there we are. It looks like the, commenting system is, more or less on track, so that's cool. And then there's various bits and pieces that Anne mentions about data view. So this is where your data is displayed to you, like lists of posts and things like that.

And there's a lot going on in there. But anyway, there we go. I'll link to that in the show notes. Next one up is, gosh, never stops. WordPress 6.7 just got released. Then WordPress 6.7 0.1 just got released and now we're on the, the path of getting 6.8 out of the door. And as always, the, the team are looking for people to, become involved.

And On the WP Tavern website, core team announces WordPress release schedule for 2025. An issues call for 6.8 volunteers. the release schedule goes like this, 6.8, should be released on the 15th of April, 6.9, August the fifth, and more or less exactly a year from now. 11th of November 7.0. and they say that they, this time around have taken care to not get in the way of public holidays and, key events like Word Camp Asia and Europe and things like that.

And they are looking for people specifically at this point. seven is too far away. They just want 6.8 volunteers and on the screen. But LinkedIn, the show notes will be the dates, basically. you can see all the dates there starting in April, 2015. Blah, blah, blah. Up it goes. And they're looking for release coordinators, core tech leads, tech editor, tech leads, core triage, editor, triage, documentation leads, test leads, design leads and performance leads.

And there's no default theme coming with this one. So they're not looking for that role to be filled. There's nothing really to say about that, is there? That's just is what it is. It is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing good. Good. Yeah. Alright. Dunno if you, hang out on Twitter, but, seemingly, X is, has got a bit of a new rival.

certainly I, use Twitter, but I use it as a. More of a broadcasty thing. I dunno if you are the same as me, but I use it as a broadcasty thing. Don't really engage in conversation too much over there. But I, I thought to myself, everybody's talking about blue sky. I don't know, six months ago when it was in beta, I signed up for an account, didn't really do anything with it, and then just started to notice in the WordPress space, probably going back two weeks, something like that.

That a lot of people were talking about it. So I logged in again and boy, it's. Really busy. definitely. I don't know if it's gonna become some sort of silo, a bit like X is, I honestly, I just don't have a problem with X in. That's it. I, don't see weird content. I don't see objectionable content, so I dunno why that is, but I just don't, so I can't really speak to it being this pool of weirdness, which everybody else seems to think it is.

but blue sky at the minute is very fresh. And because the follower base is so much smaller than it is on X, I think if you're posting things over there, there's a much higher chance that you, You'll get discovered. Nice feature that they shipped with. Honestly, what a great idea. Hat tip to whoever came up with this.

There's a thing that you can do called a starter pack, and you can make as many of them as you like. They cap out at 150 people. But basically you go and add people that you think should go into a starter pack. You could, it could be about anything. your favorite hobby, your town, something that you're interested in, and you just pull a bunch of people in.

They don't have to agree to that. It just is, they get pulled in and that starter pack can then be used by other people to instantly follow everybody in that pack. As I typically do, following the WordPress thing, I put together what I call a WordPresses starter pack. And it's got, I don't know, something like 104 people on there.

So if you've got any intuition of joining, blue Sky, you can join, use this starter pack link in the show notes, and then immediately you'll just be following the people that I stumbled across who are WordPresses. I don't know if any of you has started using it. I feel like it's gonna become my default actually in the, I love it.

[00:38:31] Cami MacNamara: I'm on there every day. I've totally made the switch. I'm not closing my Twitter account 'cause I've had it for so long, but I prefer the interaction over here a lot. What is it that you. can you put your finger on it? 'cause I can't, but you got any intuition? What it's, yeah. I, after the election in the US I don't wanna see all the election stuff and it seems to be a little bit more like you can curate who you're seeing in your feed better here than you can In Twitter. So it's, like a fresh start, yeah. It is like a, almost like a X 2.0, isn't it? There's no, not too many. I don't think there are any ads are there at the moment. No. Maybe not yet. You can just, that will come block people from your feed entirely, which you can't really get away from stuff.

On X. Yeah. It seems to be a lot happier place at the moment. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's all butterflies and That's right. Yeah. Give time blue, shy and butterfly. Yeah, that's right. it's a good name for a start, isn't it? But it's the, the WordPress community is strong over there. I think because of the fact that we're online a lot.

[00:39:45] Nathan Wrigley: everybody's stuck. Everybody's at a computer and it's so trivially easy to set up. Then I feel that a lot of the people in our community have shifted, not necessarily shifted over there entirely, but they've got an account over there and it's, honestly, I like it. There's no algorithm, yeah.

Don't worry, mark. Yeah, take your time. there's no algorithm, so what you get is basically chronological as far as I can tell. however, interestingly, there will be algorithms, but you get to pick your own. So the roadmap for Blue Sky is you pick your own algorithm of what you wanna see. So it might be a, I don't know, in Cammy's case, I don't want anything with the word election in it.

The idea will be that in the future you'll be able to drop that and I dunno what that interface will look like. You'll be able to drop something and say, I dunno, only show me WordPress content. Never show me WordPress content. Never mention this word, or whatever. And I'm imagining that there'll be a bunch of third party.

Platforms or services that'll come up with ways of building those, algorithms. So I think that's, I think that's interesting. but yeah, if, like on Twitter, the hard part was always finding the people that you wanted to be in touch with. they've taken care of that with this startup hack thing.

And again, mine is just called WordPresses. I think when you sign up you can just type in somewhere, WordPress or something like that and my pack and a bunch of other people's will come up. Cool. and then you just hit one button and you're following all of them, but of course you can then unfollow them, yeah.

Yeah. Really nice. Also, like the way that you can use your domain name as your handle. Oh, that's so nice. Yeah. So nobody can squat on your, handle if you want your handle to be your domain name. So I've gone through Nathan wrigley.com and all. So my account is. At Nathan wrigley.com. That's me, forevermore.

You can change it by the way. You're not stuck with it. You can change it whenever you like to. Another domain name and I, did that already and I'm sticking with that one now. And all of your followers and everything go and peer and slowly, all the links will change. So if somebody linked to your previous handle, it'll then get modified to be the new one as well.

So that's really nice and and all you need to do is add a text record to your DNS. So there's a bit of technicality there. So I'll probably put a few people off, but it won't be putting everybody off. Elliot says zero ads big win. They can't keep going though, right? How can they keep this going with no ads?

[00:42:16] Maddy Osman: Yeah, for right now, but not forever. Yeah. It'll go the same way I think. Yeah. Should be. so should the VC funding Warriors with Blue Sky. Oh, don't tell me that. Is that, how it goes? Nomad skateboard. They've got a load of funding. Somebody's gotta pay for it. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Elliot? Yes. Okay.

[00:42:35] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you. so Blue Sky, you can go and check that out and, yeah, join up, sign up with that list if you want to. And then the next thing is this. we have a new. Now I've actually forgotten the role name director of the WordPress project. There you go. previously it was Joseph Sepha, Hayden Cho. she has now stepped down and the replacement is Mary Hubbard.

And this is the very short but necessary post. It came out on the 18th of November, just basically saying, hello WordPress community. she realizes, she says, here, I have large shoes to, I also recognize the challenges ahead and the large shoes. I'm stepping into reference, no doubt, to Joseph, er, and I don't know if this happened and if anybody's in the.

in lurking in the comments and you know about this, one of the ideas was that there'd be this, what was she calling it? Office hours, with Matt and I dunno if this was supposed to be like a weekly thing or a monthly thing. It says this format will be evolving, especially to allow for different time zones.

but there was one on the 22nd of November, but I haven't heard anything about it. So I don't know if that actually took place or not, but if it did, I'm curious as to where I can track that down. Clicking on the Zoom link, just open Zoom for me. So that wasn't particularly helpful, but if there's, there's a way of tracking that down, I'd be interested, but I don't even know if it happened.

But the idea's quite nice. Anyway. Welcome Mary. Hope that you, hope that you enjoy your experience here. anybody? Met Mary. She's been in the community before, but I don't know her. I don't, so look forward to meeting her. Okay? Yep. There you go. anything before we move on? Okay. Alright, let's move on then.

to ho love the community news. Here we go. there's a couple of scholarships if you want to attend Word Camp Asia. and we know that the, barrier to that can be quite high. There's the cost of travel and accommodation and what have you. So to help you out, there's a couple of scholarships on the go.

the, we've mentioned one of them before, but I haven't mentioned this other one. the Kim Parel Memorial Scholarship is opened, that is in, in memory of, a, very fine WordPress contributor, who I never met called Kim Parel. And the qualifications for that are, you have to be a woman. It says, I'll just read it out.

It's to be considered for the scholarship. Applicants must meet. The following criteria is a woman is an active contributor to the WordPress project, has previously not attended. WordCamp YE Asia. it requires financial assistance to attempt WordCamp Asia in 2025. And there's a button on here.

This, by the way, is on the asia wordcamp.org website, and the second one is the Diversity Fund Scholarship. And it says, not enough. there's a preamble sentence. it says, however, this is not enough for many of our fellow Asian residents issues such as difficulty in obtaining travel visas and the high cost of travel due to foreign exchange rates are especially present for many Asian country citizens.

So this is a slightly different one because the qualifications here are, is an active WordPress contributor has never attended any of the flagship WordPress events. So Asia, US, Europe requires financial assistance, is part of the underrepresented demography of the open source contributors into interested in bringing their experience to grow the word local, WordPress and or, WordPress communities in Asia.

open until the 6th of December. I think in both cases and decisions will be turned around by the 20th of December. Could be a nice Christmas gift if you do that in your part of the world. but nice, just a nice little bit of community news. Anything to add to that in your, you three, what a great work camp to attend if you can.

Yeah. You've been to both of them, haven't you so far? Yeah. Yeah. I've, such nice people and it's such a, it's a really busy work camp. It's, I'm exhausted after it. Are you going to, are you, any of you going to, Manila? Not currently planning to, but it seems like it's gonna be an awesome event For sure.

[00:46:48] Maddy Osman: I think that's a great place to do it. Yeah. Can we Someday, someday. Someday. I hope to make it. Yeah. And, but Mark, you are, I think you were nodding. Yeah, I'm sponsoring. so I'm looking, forward to it. the, first one I went to, which was the first one they did two, two years ago. Thailand, right?

[00:47:05] Mark Westguard: Bangkok. Yeah. It was, it was amazing. It was really, great location. Great people. Very different, audience from work camp, US and Europe. Sure. A lot of, developer teams come in. And, yeah, I th it, it's, nice because a lot of people that can't get visas to work out us and can come to Asia a bit easier.

I. yeah, it's a good time and lots of people to talk to. And your voice is no longer there after three days. Yeah, that's right. Sadly, there's only two such scholarships, so I imagine competition will be fairly fierce. But, once more, asia.org, camp.org, and you can go and find it. The post is called Apply for Scholarships to attend Word Camp Asia 2025.

[00:47:56] Nathan Wrigley: I, don't know whether I'm going yet or not. I'd like to go, but we'll have to see if the stars align. All right, let's move on. Speaking of events, here's another one. This is like a resurrection of an event. Again, I never went to it, but maybe some of you did. there used to be an event called PressNomics, which I, kinda get the impression was really, good because nobody seems to talk about it in anything other than really effusive terms, oh, I remember Pressonomics.

I wish PressNomics would come back. it is It's not called PressNomics. Now, I, I dunno if that's because that sort of handle and all of the associated property rights for PressNomics is taken. I think maybe there's something there. But now we've got press Conf 2025. So if you fancy going to, how, do you say this?

Temp, temp, Tempe. Tempe, temp, Tempe. so in Arizona it's happening from April the 25th to the 26th, 2025. you can get your tickets, although I think the tickets are, only on sale until some sort of fairly until today. Is it today? The early burn ticket? The early bird price in today, I think.

[00:49:13] Cami MacNamara: Okay. So I'm just gonna click on the ticket thing. VIP access. So it's not like your typical word camp where the tickets are, $50, $90, $70, something like that. This is, $580 I'm guessing, although I don't know that this is done outside of Word Camp Central jurisdiction. I'm not entirely sure.

[00:49:36] Nathan Wrigley: I think so. Yeah. That price is, so different, isn't it? And obviously, there are constraints about what you can charge if you go that route, but it obviously then allows them to do whatever they want with that. anyway, there you go. Tickets are on sale now. if you fancy go in the date to bookmark.

Oh, nice little cool, fun little moment. Don't notice that until just now. it's the 28th of April to the 26th of April. In that word, Arizona, Tempe, Tempus. I dunno one of those there. And hat tip to Raquel. I'm not gonna do the joke. Raquel. I'll just say Raquel. yeah. So well done to you. And I'm guessing there's various people behind it as well.

Anybody going? I think Mark. Yeah. Again, aren't you going? I'm going. Oh, is it Kami? Cammi? You said you were there. I'm going to, I think Mark is too. So yeah, I'm going. Yeah, no, look forward to it. Okay. Why? Sorry, I'm not, gonna, that sounds like a facetious question, right? What, is it that you, what is it that you see a value in this as opposed to a regular word precedent, where obviously, the ticket price is one eighth of what this is.

Let's start with Kami. what is it, what's different? one, I wanna support Raquel 'cause she started her own business and she is, putting this together. it's two, it's I wanna support. Things that aren't Word Camp, because I think that there's a market for that. three. I live in Seattle and going to Arizona in April sounds really nice.

[00:51:12] Cami MacNamara: And I, I am, I don't know that I'm the exact, market for this 'cause I'm more of a blue collar, WordPress, producer of websites for other people. But I can always learn something no matter, what the audience is. If it's meant for agencies, I'm just going to pretend I'm a big agency and learn what I can.

So I'm really excited about it. So I think it'll be fun. Nice. Plus it's been, it's, there's a lot of people I know that live in Arizona, in that area because so many of our WordPress companies are headquartered down there. What about you? so I, I love going to WordCamp. I love sponsoring.

[00:51:58] Mark Westguard: giving back that way. but the real value I personally find from a work camp is the networking. And this is another opportunity to, to network with people. there's a lot of people going that KA and I would already know, but there's always an opportunity to meet somebody new and, start a new relationship.

So that's, why I'm going. And there's some, the, speakers at the event as well are, picked speakers. So I'm looking forward to seeing what they talk about. so I think it's two days of, talk. Yeah. Just in a single room. It's, one track. So I think that is, and there's not going to be a live stream, so you're gonna wanna Be in the room, so Yeah, Okay. So one of the things on, in the right at the top, it's calls itself the, the conference for professionals driving the WordPress community. And then right here, leaders shaping WordPress and the broader web connect with pros solving problems and thinking critically about the internet today and tomorrow.

[00:52:59] Nathan Wrigley: So maybe, it is a, different, more business focused, event. Maybe Raquel, if you're watching this or somehow capture that, I've mentioned it, but we should hop on a podcast and talk about what it is that you're doing over there. It does say here, tickets on sale until today, but it also sounds like that is like a early bird pricing.

So if you want to capture that. Then, go to, the, it's press conf all as one word events. Press conf events. Go check that out. Links in the show notes. if one rocket wasn't enough, I bring you two rockets. you got one for each hand. Now. Rocket Net announces strategic partnership with WP Rocket Plugin.

It's all the rockets. your websites are now gonna load before you even try to load them. They're literally gonna come onto the page. Just as you are thinking I should go to this website. It's gonna somehow, no, I'm being facetious. So rocket.net is a hosting company. WP Rocket is a in, in the marketplace of plugins.

I think it's one of the, most well known ones, an optimization plugin, caching plugin, and so much more. And they've forged a partnership. Which honestly, it makes sense, doesn't it? With the names that they've got ideal. the, I think basically the intention is to bring WP Rockets suite of tools inside the platform.

If you are a hosting customer, of rocket.net and, you can see on the screen all of the different bits and pieces, but if you go to the WP Rocket website, you'll be able to figure out what they do. But now they have this nice new partnership, hopefully to make your websites even more blazing faster than, I'm sure rocket.net would contender.

They already are. Oh, do you use, don't you use them? Mark? Isn't that one of the I know that you did, I dunno if you still do, but Yeah, I do. And, I am, I'm genuinely impressed by Rocket Net. they've got great host and their support is unbelievable. you get on there and then, like you were saying before, I think they answer your question before you answer it.

[00:55:07] Mark Westguard: And their support is light, is lightning rough. and, the nice thing about Rocket T net is you're basically buying into a CloudFlare enterprise. So you, already get really, fast hosting, as it is. So this is a, another great partnership to make your site even faster if you needed that in the first place.

But I, use them on, my website. and, yeah, and, really nice guys, if you ever get to meet rocket.net at a work camp, go and say hello to them because they're, a lot of fun. A lot of fun. Nice, What's the, cloud flare bit there? 'cause I, don't really get myself involved in the host hosting conversation, but you mentioned CloudFlare Enterprise.

[00:55:49] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, so it's, what is that? So it basically, if you sign up for CloudFlare, for your website, that basically provides you with CDM Content delivery Network, which will deliver, From your website, from CloudFlare as opposed to your website to speed things up. that's one of one of the things that it does.

[00:56:11] Mark Westguard: but you get, you get, if you log into rocket.net and you look at the log system, you can see that it's actually all CloudFlare. So you can basically see every request coming through. if you ever have any trouble with a request to your website, maybe there's something broken, then you can, you can look that up in, in the log files quite easily 'cause it's all CloudFare based.

it's really just, performance on the front end as, and also security as well. So you get the advantage of all the, CloudFlare security stuff that they have on the front end. So before traffic even hits your website, CloudFlare is turning away all those, nasty people. and that just comes with the pro.

I didn't even realize it had that when I signed up for it because I had cloud on the front end. Was, hitting their cloud flare and, oh, cloud, too many cloud flares. Yeah, that was my fault. I didn't read the documentation properly, but, but yeah, it's, it just works. I've never had any problems with it really.

It's been, great. Nice. Patricia says she knows the founders of WP Rocket. I think it's, isn't it? Sorry. Kamie, I totally blew your head away with that comment. you got covered up. I know the founders of WP Rocket says Patricia. that's what's happened when you attend Word camps in France for years.

[00:57:29] Nathan Wrigley: It's Ben Galer, isn't it? Is that Ben? Yeah, Ben Galer. Yeah. I don't think I've met Ben. Oh, I might have done, but I don't think we actually had a conversation. I might have seen him across a room or something like that. Anyway, well done for forging that partnership. So yeah. Yeah. Another reason if you're in the hosting space and you want go and check out a new competitor, sorry, Cammy, I've done it again.

Look, it's okay. Oh God. Oh, let's put it back. You can, you can do that. Yeah. You're like that thing that hangs over the wall. Yeah, it hangs over. I can take my nap now. Yeah, that's right. There you go. Yeah. Perfect. go check 'em out. It's rocket.net and obviously WP Rocket. I dunno if that's dot com or what, but go Google it and you've got the combined resources of both of those now.

Lovely. Thanks for that clarification, mark. That was good. bit happy news. Nothing to share other than the happiness, win Hughes. Is the recipient of the Yost Care Fund for her contribution to the WordPress community. so it is basically just a congratulations. Well done. I'm sure that wins would like to thank the person that nominated her, who is our friend, bud Kraus.

and you can see on the website the, the bits and pieces that Bud wrote about wins. That's really nice. I don't know what this fund actually provides, but, I'm just saying congratulations. That's really nice. Does anybody know, is it a financial thing? Is it like $500? That's my memory of it. Yeah, I think it's like a stipend or something.

[00:58:54] Maddy Osman: Okay. So it's, yeah, I think so. Yeah. Okay, great. deserved. Yay. so well done. Thank you for, for Bo for nominating and well on to win. So just a little hat tip there. Okay. A bit of partisan stuff. Now, I am a big user of this, generate blocks if honestly. If you haven't tried it, just give it a go.

[00:59:19] Nathan Wrigley: It's so good. it's, I think seven blocks. It might even be less, it might be five or something. Anyways, I think it's six. I was just looking, talking about it's between five and seven. What is that? Oh yes, six. You're in the ballpark. Yeah, that's about right. they, you, it's a very minimal suite. So typically in the WordPress space, we're used to block suites where you buy and there's just, there's a, block for this and a block for that, and it's brilliant.

You drag 'em in and they do tons of things, generate blocks, has taken a different path and that is basically just getting. Content on a page. So it's not, sliders or anything like that. But, their blocks allow you to co make any design, with inside the block editor. And they've had a few limitations despite the fact that the product is really good.

They've had a few limitations and they're busting those with their 0.2 release. Carl Van Dusen, who we will mention again in a minute, actually, he did a really good video, I think it was like half an hour or something where he took the alpha for a bit of a test drive and he showed what it could do that was new.

But the top line items are, essentially dah, It's just scroll down a little bit that, if you want to insert dynamic tags you can do now. And rather than the old way with, with the, plugin where you could just choose one. Now you can put tag side by side. So if you wanna have dynamic tag, I don't know, author dynamic tag.

Then a colon, and then the name of the author and then a date or something. You can just put all those into the one query, which enables you to do pretty complicated things right off the bat. But the other thing, which, oh, and here is a list of all the tags, and there's quite a few, probably some more to come, quite a few of them are, five or six of the bottom of the pro ones.

There is a pro version. but the cool thing is the revamped query loop block, and they're now just calling it the query block. And then inside of that sits the looper block. And now it's very meta. This the, you can create loops inside of loops. So that sounds weird, but let's say for example, you wanna loop through menu items.

So that's one loop. But then you wanna do the price of each of those menu items. That's a loop inside of a loop, if And you couldn't do that before. And now you can, and on the screen, so you can see it's looping through the, whatever this is, the meal. And then inside of it, it's looping through to get its name.

It's so you can put cards next to each other or what have you. And it's just really powerful. And that previously wasn't possible. And yeah, and apparently it loads really quickly as well. So honestly, it's like, an ad. There's no ad. I just like it. and, I know that none of you have used it, so I'm just talking into total void here.

You've used it for a long time though, haven't you, Nathan? Yeah, I have. And I, just think it's, what I really like is simplicity. I do like a thing which does the thing and does only that thing. And basically that I think was to Tom Osborne is the guy that is behind it. I think his idea was, what can I do to help people put pixels accurately onto the page?

So it's not about animation. there's a bit of that, but it's really not about that. It's about just making a design, which is pixel perfect to the thing that came out of Figma. And it really, can do that. And once you've got the muscle memory of what the blocks can do and what you need to put inside of where, then honestly it'll take you two days and you'll be building websites with six blocks and that's all you need.

Six was six. I think it was six. and that's really all you need for the layout side of things. I'm not, putting it over other ones, but it's I like it a lot. There you go. Anybody wanna add anything? Probably not 'cause you don't use it, but I've never heard. Say again? I have a couple of sites that I manage that use it, but I haven't built with it yet, so yeah, I'm gonna poke around in there.

If you are used to using something like Cadence and or stackable or something and you've got the muscle memory in and you know how to do it, just. Stay with that. but if you haven't, if you're still using, I don't know, you, you haven't really switched to Gutenberg and you just can't make that jump.

I think this is a really credible, way of looking at it. And, yeah, Kyle loves it. I watched quite a few of his videos. Yeah. And there's a reason why it's just dead simple. And, that kind of atrophy you get when you present it with like multiple choices and you can't figure out which is the best thing to do, you just don't get that.

'cause there aren't choices. There's just There's a block. You need to use that one. And then you put that inside that and that inside that. Anyway, there you go. Yeah. That's nice. So there you go. just going back a moment, Michelle says it's $500. For the the Yost care package thing.

What was it called again? The Yost Care Fund. Maybe. Yost Care Fund. So WINS is the recipient of $500. That's nice. Thank you Michelle, for telling us that. Oh, 500 euros. There's correction. It's either euros or dollars. They're fairly similar these days. okay, there we go. And another bit of news, if you followed this project, this is just nice again.

I won't play it 'cause you won't get the audio, but, this is Kelly Muro. Let me introduce Kelly Muro, or Muro, I'm not entirely sure how to pronounce his surname. He is the founder of something called North Commerce, which has been in the works for many years, and I think it's fair to say was probably a bigger project than was imagined.

I spoke with Kelly several years ago, and even at that point it was kinda like, oh, we'll get it done fairly soon. It's taken a lot longer, but they finally shipped, V one of North Commerce. And I just think it's worth a look if you've got the intuition that you want, like a, I don't know, something like WooCommerce, but you don't want WooCommerce.

Go and have a look. It does absolutely loads out the box. so you'd have to pile on all the, the add-ons and extras plugins. Yeah, exactly. I, confess though, I haven't used it, but it, I just think it's really nice when something that somebody has labored over for years and years, finally.

Hits the light of day. welcome to Kelly. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. a Anybody using it? No, I guess not. It's real edge case still, isn't it? But anyway, I definitely wanna check it out for sure. Yeah, I've got, you know what the main use case is? it's woo, it's basically a swap out for Woo. So you are literally, you've got shopping cart, you've got a load of the functionality, like you can categorize products and all of that kind of stuff, and it'll take care of cart pages and the whole shopping, the buying process and everything.

But, it obviously doesn't have that plugin landscape that Woo does. Yeah. yet, but it looks like that's one of the big selling points of it. You don't have to have all, these different extensions to get it to do what you want it to do. Yeah. All included does a certain amount out of the box.

Yeah. And I'm sure that ecosystem will, will come over time. yeah. I think it's important, Patricia, that at this point we, we highlight Mark's cat. They've all come into that. I've got cats. How many have you got? I've got two cats and one dog. And whenever I do this show, they just have to be next to me.

[01:06:46] Mark Westguard: Do the dogs not wanna eat the cats? Is that, just a myth? No, the, dog is about the size of a cat. Oh, really? Excellent. So there's that. We had a, we had a pheasant in our garden, like for the last two or three weeks, there's this pheasant. Oh wow. And it's just pacing around in our garden.

[01:07:03] Nathan Wrigley: And I think it goes to other people's gardens, but it always comes back to our garden and it's way bigger than our cats. But you can tell the cats want to eat it so bad, so they just pace around it and, do that stalking thing that cats do, they get really close and then chicken out. It's really funny watching it.

Bless them. yeah. Hello Mark Cat. Thank you for that. north Commerce, I'll put the link in the show notes so you can check out the video. Huh. Carl Van Dusen. Again, normal feature. Yeah. He's doing all right this week, isn't he? he's released a plugin con. Firstly, congratulations. I don't know if this is your, like your first plugin.

I know that you've done, a variety of different things in the past, Carl, but if this is your first plugin, congratulations. I know that's a big hurdle. I certainly haven't done anything like it. It's called Noted. And, in a tweet, I dunno if he was joking, mark, but in a tweet, he basically said, you built it.

No, I didn't. Carl did all the hard work. I just helped him get it onto the repo. 'cause that can be a little bit of a learning curve, to use SVN to get it on the, repo. But it's, yeah, I just helped him out with that part of it. But yes, it's a, really simple plugin. It's a note plugin that sits within your WordPress admin.

[01:08:22] Mark Westguard: And you can just, yeah, add, notes to your, admin for things that you need to do. It's really, simple and like, he says, it's lightweight and clutter free. so is the idea then that it memorizes where you are on your website? So let's say for example, I'm on a particular post and I invoke noted, it comes in as like a sidebar, right?

[01:08:42] Nathan Wrigley: It sweeps in from the right. I dunno if that's standard, but it sweeps in from the right and then you've got a bunch of places where you can just drop a note. It's that straightforward. Yeah. Save the note. And then is, do you know, is the idea that then when you come back to that same post, your notes are just there so it's not inside the post?

I don't know if it's post specific to be honest. Okay. I really haven't played, I, played around with it when we were working on it together, but I'm not sure if it is. Post, maybe it is. Let's read, shall we? Let's do that. Let's store it all in one place. Yeah. Store your sidebar specific notes, instructions, and reminders.

All in one place. No more searching through old emails or docs. Always a click away. So it's, you click on it to make it lightweight and clutter free. Clutter free, even. note it is there always when you need it. And we're looking at one of the screenshots here so we can see the WP admin. And there it is there.

Oh, I see. So it's dropping in the note. I should probably enlarge that. Dropping in the note as a little label almost here. Yeah. And it has a markdown support, so you can do italic and bold and things like that. So it's very, straightforward. But just, give it a title, write a note, and then it'll drop into this little list down here, I'm guessing.

And then what does that look like? There's the second one. Oh, okay. So yes, I think you activate it with a menu at the top, right? You scroll left a little bit. Yeah, it's in the toolbar. I loaded it this morning. I'm gonna test it out. Okay. Okay. So yeah, it's on the repo. It's, totally free. I dunno if the intention is to see a, pro version, but if you go into the details section, so we're on wordpress.org/plugins/noted.

And, you can see slightly down there, there is a video, where Kyle will walk you through it and then go and watch his, video about generate press and realize that Kyle is more productive than you are. Kyle is incredibly productive. He's, yeah, he's, it's not really fair is it? when you meet, you are incredibly productive.

What the heck? mark, I don't know how you manage what you do either. and as always, he managed to add a nice little bit of, even the image is really nice. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah. Very nice. Well done. Nice logo. Well done, Kyle. We're all very jealous of you, noted is what it's called. Go check it out.

I'm not gonna mention that. Installs, it's got what? Oh yeah, let's have a look at that. Let's see what the install count is. 20 plus. That's pretty good. Yeah, pretty good. So just a couple days old. Let's see if it'll go up in the next day or so. okay. I'm not gonna do the AI piece however I am. That's good.

Mention. Yeah, I'm just, we'll come back to that if need be. there go. I am gonna mention this one. fluent the company behind all the fluent stuff, CRMS, MTP. What else have they got? Forms. Yeah. What else? they got another thing fluent. Something fluent. I don't know. They've got loads of nice stuff.

They've got the support ticket thing as well, haven't support fluent support. That's it. Oh, and boards, they've got like a Kanban board option. so they've co they've come up with a new one. They swing into these things. Don't they Take a thing, which is already tested elsewhere. I think that's their, modus operandi, isn't it?

is taken, become fluent in it. Yeah. Trello, but stick it in a. Plugin, in this case, like BB press or Facebook groups or something like that. So this is, fluent community as you would imagine. it's designed to be a bit like circle, I guess that SaaS platform, which does the whole thing.

So it says, it membership courses, groups, admins discussions, but obviously all inside your WordPress website. They're launching it as they always do with a bit of an LTDA lifetime deal price. single site at the moment is 1 9 9, and I think you, you pay that once and that's, you don, I dunno if support Oh yeah.

Lifetime update, lifetime support, all features included. And then the gateway is more, more sites for more money. Five sites is 400 bucks, 15 is 700. 50 sites is, $950, but it looks like you can pay for it monthly. I think the easy thing about this is buying the plugin. The hard work. The hard work starts on the reverse side.

I don't know if you've ever tried to build a community, but it's jolly hard work. Yeah. I think that's maybe where, what I'm seeing in like the content marketing world, though, that's something that a lot of brands are investing in right now and building that out, and certainly not that it's easy, but it does seem to be something that's like on the radar for 2025 as a way to meet your customers while some of these other channels, are volatile and people aren't totally sure, like SEO for example, there's just a lot of stuff happening with the algorithm and so it's something like investing in your own community and creating that one-to-one connection or something to it.

Yeah, that's a good point. do you have a community? Any of you do, you have places that you hang out that you prefer? I used to hang out in Facebook groups. Can we? I do, I have a Facebook group called Webc Cammy Cafe. It's very small. but it's a lot of wonderful web designers that are, friends and we network with each other and it's, a boutique community, I would say.

[01:14:12] Cami MacNamara: But anyone's welcome to, to go to Facebook and, fill out my little form and become a member. How do you feel about the Facebook piece of it? Do you feel that there's something in a product like this that would lead you to, in take the time it would take to build that? Yeah. I'm actually gonna check this out because I'm thinking about starting a group for my Habits newsletter where we have an accountability group and each week we meet.

So I'm gonna check that out. I think Facebook is easy because people are already there, and so it's a way to easily connect during the day with the folks that, you're, having discussions with. but I, don't think it's in the end all be all, I always want to explore new things and I've taken a lot of courses and been in communities on Circle and they're doing a great job.

[01:15:10] Maddy Osman: Circle does a great job. Yeah. I always think that, if you put like loads of work to a Facebook group. There's probably no better place to have it, because that algorithm is gonna work in your favor. If your group is vibrant and active and there are people responding, Facebook is gonna love it, aren't they?

[01:15:30] Nathan Wrigley: And everything's gonna get promoted inside your group to the members who aren't currently looking at your group. And, and so it's brilliant. But then, if, it's more of a sort of side hustle and a bit of a project or something that you've just got going on, I feel almost like Facebook does the opposite.

it tries to, it, it doesn't help you with the, with the algorithmic stuff. And so your pe people returning, so the admin bar, here's Kyle again, right? This episode is all about Carl. What the heck, Kyle? He's all about Carl. Yeah. It is all about Carl. He's done a great job in keeping his admin bar community vibrant and interesting over on Facebook.

And as a result, because of the, the, Constant churn of information over there. Facebook in, I'll pat you about you, pat Mine. Facebook does a great job in surfacing his content to the people who are in his group, who are logged in. I, think the problem comes is when you wanna take a step back, I think it quickly goes in the other direction.

it becomes very quiet and Facebook starts to show other people's groups and stuff like that. So I think this is a neat idea. and I do you certainly get data ownership with it as well, so Yeah. If you're using this, you're gonna own the content, whereas with Facebook, who knows what they're gonna do with it.

[01:16:50] Mark Westguard: I've tried running a community myself on my own site and I just couldn't get. Buy in on it? No. Because it was having to log into another system and, then I meet, when I moved it to Facebook, someone suggested it to me and I thought, okay, I'll try it. And it, all of a sudden we had a vibrant community.

so that would be my, I guess my only reservation with it. That's not to say you can't build a really powerful community because like you say, people like Carl that produce a lot of content and good content and it's engaging and people wanna come and look at it, will come back to those communities like Kevin Geary with his circle.

his inner circle is incredibly busy. and he runs that on circle. Doesn't need Facebook groups, but as KA says, the convenience of having it on Facebook groups is that you can very easily gain new, members because they're already on Facebook and it's just so easy to get into. But, yeah, Josh Hall also has a really big circle.

[01:17:51] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Group. That's the WordPress community. Yeah. Yeah. So it can be done. You've just got a hundred percent pick the right community, haven't you? And I suppose the subject matter is, and, also the, if you're not trying to grow it to 500,000 people and you're happy with the 500 that you've got, or a hundred or whatever it may be, that's fine.

The, I guess the only concern would be here, would it be things like GDPR and data retention, and also just the size of your WordPress install. if, you're giving people unlimited capacity to, I don't know, upload images or video Which you would fully expect on things like Facebook, they've got very deep pockets.

'cause that there goes a flying cat. I dunno if you all saw that There was a cat just flew across the screen. that was cool. We should do, I wanted to slow that down. Nobody noticed. Yeah. Nobody I noticed. Nobody I noticed. but the data retention bit, the amount of data inside your database over time, if you are allowing people to upload images and what have you.

I, just wonder, how performance this would be over time. I'm sure they're gonna make the claim that it'll be absolutely fine. But the other thing is this is not just for work camp related, WordPress related stuff. This could be any kind of community. Yeah. Could be literally anything. Right?

Anything. So yeah, your local history group or your school, I don't know, social thing for your school. but there's loads in here. You can do lesson plans, you can do membership courses, all of that kind of stuff. So check it out, fluent Community Co. And links in the show notes or just go to that URL. And as I said, it's $199 for the first site and it goes up, from there.

So check it out. Anything else? Or shall I move on? We're onto the home straight now, so we're moving away from WordPress really. although stay WordPress ish. Didn't see this one coming. Mind you, I never do. With the automatic acquisitions, they buy all sorts of interesting stuff.

So automatic have acquired something called Harper. and along with Harper comes Elijah Potter because Elijah Potter, is the, I guess the founder I want to say of Harper. What is Harper? I hear you ask. it's like Grammarly. So a automatically getting into the, curation of, I don't know, good grammar fixing problems inside of the text that you write.

I'll just quickly read. It says, we're excited to announce the acquisition of Harper, a grammar checker, but here's the catch for developers as well as the addition of its founder, Elijah Potter to the automatic team. Harper delivers grammar language suggestions in under 20 milliseconds. And it says that's 1% of the speed of the big commercial rival that you all know begins with a g Ends in. Ramly, I made that hard to pause, didn't I? currently available as a language server and through web assembly Harper combines lightning fast performance with a privacy first design, ensuring all processes happen locally on your device.

So that's another interesting feature. It's happening locally, definitely, to keep the data private, it's also completely open source. And if we go over here to the Harper website, with Harper, you can see that right at the top. I don't quite know why these logos are here, but they're here. So I'm guessing there's some use for them in those scenarios.

It says Git integrations. Yeah, code, code plugin. I'm guessing this is vs. Code vs. Yeah. and, what have you. and here's, how it looks. So I guess this is part of their ui, so it finds things, you click on it. Gives a suggestion, you just click the button, make the, make the changes. So it's a bit different.

It looks different. It feels different, but, interesting pivot from automatic, but I guess not if the mission of WordPress and automatic really is to publish things. This is nice, right? And if this was rolled into WordPress, it was happening on the device and it was doing all the grammar checking inside a WordPress, I'd take that for nothing.

I'd take that for free for sure. So anyway, it'll be interesting if they do roll it into WordPress and the dashboard and the writing experience, especially if we then get the, the comment feature that we talked about previously to do edits and things like that. I could see it becoming quickly cluttered though, is the problem.

Yeah, that ui I currently run something like this. I've got one called Pro Writing Aid, which I really like. It basically the same, but the effect it has on the WordPress block editor is fairly profound actually. And it ruins it. I have to switch it off. Oh, profound in that way. Yeah. Bad.

Profound. Because every time you hit return and start a new paragraph block, it adds, for some reason, it adds a bit of padding. It doesn't, when you save that and publish it, it's, you can't, it's not there. But in the UI, inside the block editor, it just adds like 50 pixels underneath every paragraph, and as soon as you turn pro writing aid off, it just goes away.

But it makes you think like you've just added extra paragraph blocks. That's a bad experience, Richard. Sure. Yeah. So it's not great, but if they did roll that in, but this is cool though, if it is private, it's all running on device, so your data is going nowhere. I think that's pretty compelling actually.

Yeah, very. Yeah. So anyway, here we go. Here's the comparison, which obviously does very well for Harper. Harper. It says, takes 10 milliseconds. the, this one I've never heard of that one. Language tool 650 and the Ramly beginning with a g, is 4,000 milliseconds. I don't know how they've decided that, but there you go.

welcome Elliot, and, I hope that it comes into a WordPress site near you with a toggle somewhere out of the UI so that we, put it on. very cool. I didn't see that coming, but I like it. If you didn't know this Grammarly, it doesn't necessarily silo to the device, but your data is siloed.

[01:24:12] Maddy Osman: Okay. So It's not used to train other, organizations data or Grammarly as a tool in general. I'm a Grammarly ambassador, I should probably say that, but, oh, nice. You can you imagine how hard it must be for the owners of Grammarly at the minute not to cave in to the pressure to sell the data to the AI companies?

[01:24:34] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Can you imagine how much data they've got about a just text being written by people? yeah, it's probably pretty hard, but at the same time, to the point of this example, right? It's like that's very compelling to all of us and we must know that. Plus they have the plagiarism tester tool.

[01:24:55] Cami MacNamara: Which is fantastic and Yep. Yeah. I use them daily. It's, a great suite of tools for sure, but, always room for others as well. Especially if this one can integrate with WordPress in a meaningful way. I don't know that Graham really has, achieved that yet. Harper, right with harper.com.

[01:25:16] Nathan Wrigley: now under the stewardship of automatic. So, there we go. I, don't really want to do, oh, let's just quickly do it. Let's just get it outta the way. You can't help it. I can't. I have to do it. there's another AI tool for making websites. There we go. Did it, done. No, I'm being horrible, aren't I?

indie Stack have got a thing called AI driven websites built on WordPress. Ready in minutes. I've gotta say, I honestly thought that this. This whole thing was just gonna be misdirection and the ar, and I haven't tried this one, but I did try one this weekend and it was so good. It was so good. It did everything right.

not from a co point of view. I was just looking at the visuals. I asked it to build me a website in a particular niche that I thought it would stumble upon, create images that I thought it wouldn't be able to get, create me copy that I thought would be utterly Dr. Dreadful 3-year-old speak. It just did really well in every single regard.

It kind. How much prompting did you have to do? I wrote three were your prompt, very basic 300 words out of a possible 500. Okay. that's a pretty good prompt right there. Yeah. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. It wouldn't allow me less than two 50. So to produce a whole website, that's nothing, isn't it?

[01:26:37] Mark Westguard: Yeah. That's crazy. Absolutely nothing. And it did a really, and I was looking at a particular niche because I have a friend who works in this niche, won't go into it, but it's not something, it's not something I've ever built a website for. And I thought I wouldn't even know where to begin. So I did that, wrote 200 words, 250 words, and what came back looked totally credible.

[01:26:58] Nathan Wrigley: That is a really good bit of boilerplate starting point. And it would've taken me a whole day to get that many images into that many pages with that many blog posts and man, yeah. Pretty incredible. Anyway, here we go. Indie stack, dot com slash ai. there you go. Write, a hundred words. In this case, they say, and let a AI do the rest.

I don't know if this is gonna ruin our careers or not. This feels I don't know. Maddy, what's your thoughts on this? You've got a whole a book about it. I think the biggest thing is it's about, with any AI tool, it's about the user who's using it and their experience going into it. And the prompting, that's why, that's what prompted the prompting question.

[01:27:49] Maddy Osman: the other thing is the more people who use these tools and either don't have good prompts or they're just creating the same things, there is a real risk of homogenization with all of the things that we create with ai because it is statistically trying to give you the most average result for your prompt.

[01:28:08] Nathan Wrigley: And that's what we strive for, isn't it? Like you can put that on the banner of your website. Building business. We aim for statistically average websites that, so that's the thing. humans, we, innovate, we add novelty. And if that's important to people, then they shouldn't use AI tools to do the whole job.

We talked about this the other week, so I'm just gonna do it ever so briefly. But it was really interesting. On YouTube the other day, there was a guy who is seriously into writing music. That's what he does for a living. And he released this video where he created a piece of music, submitted it, one, an AI consumed his piece of music.

This is all very deliberate. He wanted that to happen. And then he immediately then wrote another piece of music and got a take down notice from the AI company because it was too like the piece of music that had been written by looking at his piece of music. Oh wow. And it all, he did the whole thing. In 20 minutes from start to finish, from writing the music, to submitting it, to putting a new piece of music up, to getting the take down notice 20 minutes start.

[01:29:16] Maddy Osman: that's really rich, honestly, an AI thinking that they have ownership rights when they exist by taking our ownership rights. Yeah. But what can you do? And so this is all based around YouTube, right? and the YouTube video. Yeah, their algorithm. It didn't really have too many options. You've either got a, to monetize the video continually, you've got to Bow or, fight it. Anyway, I just thought that was fascinating and I do worry about that a little bit. I worry about this sort of AI generated content, which then gets fed into the SEO algorithm, which then produces more AI generated content, which gets fed in, and eventually, in 12 years time, the internet will just say bleh negative.

[01:29:54] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. The whole dead internet theory or whatever. It's just, I've been in business long enough to remember worrying that WordPress was gonna kill my business because I was building websites the old way, oh, I see. Yeah, I think we'll hang in there for a while. At least AI's a tool like anything else, it's only as good as the creators.

[01:30:15] Cami MacNamara: I think it makes the younger, entrepreneurs that are coming up, let's say they're, 16 to 18 now, and at 25 they launch a business, they're probably more apt to be able to do a lot more on their own than the, like the business owners that I cater to now. Yeah, that's a good thinking about think.

[01:30:35] Nathan Wrigley: It's still very shiny to me in that when I, do something and AI takes a significant part of that work and does it for me, I am still blown away. Yeah. By, the process of that happening. I still get an amazing sort of sense of disbelief when Midjourney throws an image out from a text-based prompt.

I, I, it's still indescribable to me that can happen. Yeah. What's gonna happen to search, so chat, GPD launch search, and that's just going to upend a lot of things too. Has anybody started to use that as like a default? I have. Yeah, I have. Yeah. Is it the default now? Is Google gone and that's been replaced?

[01:31:15] Cami MacNamara: no. I, took, I installed that, add-on to Chrome and removed it because it, it made my search go straight to chat GPT. 'cause I'm a, I pay You have to pay for it to get. Yeah. you can put in if I'm looking for a web designer in West Seattle, who should I call? and it, came up with me.

Nice. That was nice. Yeah. That's a dream. I think. Clients initially were like, should I hide my stuff, my website from chat? And the answer is no. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it because it's going to have a big impact on search. Future's gonna be interesting, that's for sure. definitely.

[01:31:59] Nathan Wrigley: We've run outta time. I don't wanna hold you good people. Maddie's got to go back to bed. Cammy. Yes, that's right. Ami really needs to change a little bit, I feel as well. She's managed to knock. I'm good. I'm gonna The gym. Yeah. Oh, he's gotta, he's gotta fight those coffees first. Yeah. And and it's, and it is, it's three 30, so it's time to knock it on the head.

One thing that we always do, just a quick one, chat. GPT I'll just do the comments quickly. Chat. GPT has a browser coming now as well. Oh, interesting. That'll be good. Yes. Gt Patricia likes the fact that there's an obsidian plugin, for the thing that we were talking about a minute ago. And then Jerome is just joining us.

Hi J. Or is that by, I dunno. But, it's great. Great to have you. Oh, maybe it's 'cause we've gotta do the hands. we, we always do this thing at the end of every episode where everybody raises their hands. And, I get a picture of it. So gives a smile, gives a wave. And, thank you. If you've been joining us live in the comments.

I really appreciate it. that's always makes their conversation so much more fun. But obviously it goes without saying. I'd like to thank the three people joining us, Mark West Guard, Maddie Osmond and Kami McNamara. if you three fancy a little bit of chat just in a moment, that's great, but, I'll do the little closing video and stay on the call.

But thank you for joining us today. Really appreciate it. See you next time on this week in WordPress. Bye-Bye for now. See you later.