This Week in WordPress #292

[00:00:04] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this week in WordPress episode number 292 entitled soup to nuts: the path of totality. It was recorded on April the eighth, 2024. My name's Nathan Wrigley. And I'm joined by my cohost this week, Michelle Frechette, but also by Birgit Olzem and by Andrew Palmer.

It is a WordPress podcast, so we talk a lot about that. We talk about WordPress 6.5, the latest release. What is in there? We also get into the upcoming planning for WordPress 6.6. What are the dates that it's due to be released? Gutenberg 18 has been launched and what's going on in that.

We also get into quite a long discussion about the new redesign for wordpress.org. Some people like it, some people less Do we have a problem trying to decide who our audience are? You can find out all about that.

We also get into a few things going on. Some funny things like a Minecraft April fool, but also we talk about Sustain WP, a podcast.

And we talk about the fact that Woo.com is now woocommerce.com because it only just recently changed to woo.com and now it's back to woocommerce.com. It's all to do with a Google update. And you can find out about that.

Beaver builder is 10 years old. So is gravity kit as was gravity view. And we also talk about Andrew's plugin, Bertha AI, as well as a bunch of other plugins.

And finally, we rush through Birgit's contribution. The D E I B contributions that she bought. We'll have her on at a future date so that we have to rush a little bit less.

It's all coming up next on this week. In WordPress.

This episode of the WP Builds podcast is brought to you by GoDaddy Pro, the home of manage WordPress hosting that includes free domain, SSL, and 24 7 support. Bundle that with The Hub by GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients, and get 30% of new purchases. Find out more at go.me/wpbuilds.

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Hello? Hi. Hello. Hello, hello. Hi there. it's this week in WordPress. We're on episode number. 292. Gosh, wow. I'm closing in on the trifecta of centuries now I have to go see who's co co-hosting for number 300 and swap. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's an important one. Maybe we should get everybody in have like tiny, tiny little icons of everybody.

Anyway, it's number 292. We're here to talk about WordPress, as we always do. before we do that though, I'm gonna make a few little introductions and a few little bits of housekeeping. I'll do the introductions in a moment. I'll just do the housekeeping e bits first. The first thing to say is, if you are joining us and you're enjoying what you're seeing, please give us a comment.

If you, you're disagreeing with what we're saying, please give us a comment. Basically, the comments thing is really nice. It keeps the whole show ticking along nicely and, and I enjoy it greatly. So if you put your comments in, hopefully the platform will see them. We have had a few problems recently where the platform hasn't, but I'm able to read them, off the screen and I can, you know, inject them into the, into the.

The presentation that way, if you like, the, the best place to direct people though is to our live page, which is on our website, wp builds.com/live. So wp builds.com/live. If you are joining us on Facebook, this might well be the last week that the group is allowed to have a live stream. Facebook. Facebook are hobbling, their API and they disabling services like this.

I don't quite know why they've done that, but that's what they're doing. But if you're there, maybe this is the last week, but you've gotta go here, on, otherwise you're anonymous. So that's wave video forward slash live slash facebook and click on the link, click on the button, and that'll enable us to see who you are.

I think that is all the bits and pieces of housekeeping that I've got. So let's now introduce our. Wait for it. Co-host. Woohoo. Yeah, I got it right. I always, accidentally big, call Michelle a, a guest and she's not, she's on here. I I do a lot more work than that. She, she's, she's busy on my behalf. And so she is the co-host. It's Michelle Frechette. You've seen her around on the internet, I'm sure. Michelle is the director of Community Engagement for Stellar WP at Liquid Web. In addition to her work there, Michelle is the podcast barista at WP Coffee Talk Co-founder. Underrepresented in tech.com and creator of wp career pages.com.

She's the president of the board of Big Orange heart.org, director of community Relations and [email protected]. That's not true. You have my old bio. I put, I know I got the old bio copied and pasted. She's the, what are you now, the executive director? Yes. Of post status.com. She's right, right at the top of that there pyramid.

and she's an author, business coach and a frequent organizer and speaker at WordPress Events lives outside Rochester, New York, where she's an avid nature photographer. You can see evidence of that on Facebook this week, in fact. Mm-Hmm. There's a nice couple of photographs that dropped in my feed. and she's also got a website where you can find out about her.

It's called Meet Michelle Online. Nice, nice bio. and apologies for the, for the old copy paste. Good.

And we're also joined, I believe for the first time on this show about by Birgit Olzem. How are you Doing? Fine, thanks. You are so welcome. An absolute pleasure. be, it's been on the podcast with me before, so we've definitely spoken in the past, but never in this sort of live format.

So I hope that you enjoy it. I hope it's not too, too weird and that you'll come back. but I'm gonna read out your bio. Bega is a renowned WordPress specialist and dedicated advocate. For diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, otherwise known as DEIB. More on that later Within the tech community.

As founder of Coach Birgit Media, she provides expert WordPress and personal branding services, helping clients elevate their online presence with their vast knowledge and experience. In addition to working Tech, bigot is also the creative force behind Lee Cobi, L-I-C-O-B-I design, where she explores contemporary art and surface pattern design.

How cool is that? showcasing her versatility and passion for creativity with an impressive contribution. Contribution track record that includes founding, the WordPress DEIB working group Big. Its commitment to making the digital world more accessible and welcoming is evident. She's proficient in project management, mentoring and web design.

Coupled with her dedication to fostering inclusivity makes her a true WordPress evangelist. Nice bio bigot. That's impressive. There's a lot going on there. We're also joined, I think I. By Andrew Palmer. Andrew texted me in theory, Andrew texted me or rather sent me an email a little while ago saying, he's got, he's got things that are just going on.

Maybe he's got like, I don't know, stuff going on in his life. That means he's gonna be a little bit late. So if he does drop in. I can see him in the platform, but I can't see his camera. so if I put him on the screen, it, it'll just be a black rectangle. So I'll wait Andrew, until, until such times as we can actually get your camera working.

but I'll introduce him should he actually manage to get the technology working and his bio is dead quick. Andrew likes WordPress and, and the web and he loves this show. Nice. So Andrew, if you get it going, I'll drop you in. So stay the course with us and thank you for the live chat comments. Really appreciate.

Oh gosh. Wow. Lots of them. There's loads. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Good evening. Says Cameron Cameron's all the way in Australia from a chilly Victoria Harbor. Daylight saving has finally aligned, so the show will actually finish before midnight. Oh, nice. Thank you very much. I love Cameron. He love Cameron.

[00:08:43] Michelle Frechette: Wonderful. Appreciate your. Got your wonderful human, Elliot Rich. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Elliot's gonna appear in more bays than one this show. He's in the comments. He's also gonna be on YouTube. so hi there, Elliot. That's nice to see you. Pete's joining us. She's saying Good afternoon and good morning. And Peter Ingersol, as he always does, drops in his weather report about K Connecticut.

[00:09:03] Nathan Wrigley: It's six degrees or 43 degrees Fahrenheit. is sunny where he is. The sun will be eclipse. Oh, oh, oh. You get the eclipse. Nice. Nice. I get, I get totality. I am in the path of totality, so I'll be outside with my cameras watching. When, what time, how long from now? three, around 3, 3 30 my time. So I am so gel.

You know, that kind of bucket list thing that's like number one on my bucket list? I wouldn't look. This is the first time for me, so. Oh, it's, it's cloudy, so let's hope it clears up way. Oh, okay. Oh, no. Okay. Okay. Mm-Hmm. let's, let's hope it clears up. Oh, fantastic. What a stroke. A lot living where you are.

Nigel's joining us and he's in Zimbabwe, Ari, 26 degrees San Go stop. It's another wonderful human. Yeah, that's, that's so nice and warm. finally able to watch live, says Patricia. Woo. Nice for you joining us. Thank you. Steve just says afternoon. Thanks Steve. Courtney's joining us. Michelle, will you be doing a live?

Oh, are you gonna be live streaming? I hadn't thought about that because I'm hoping to take photographs and so I think it would be difficult to do both. Okay. But I do have a lens, I got a special lens cover for my camera so I won't burn out my camera. Oh, okay. So that will be good because if you pointed at, even the camera dies, does it, if you point it at the, your phone will, you'll ruin your phone camera if you point it.

[00:10:24] Michelle Frechette: Okay. At anything other than totality. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Cameron says that he met today's, lovely hosts at Word Camp Europe last year. Yes. We sat at a table, yeah. late into the night and, and wild away the hours. It was absolutely lovely. That was fun. good morning in Icelandic. I'm not even gonna try, but James, I appreciate that it says, go on, dad.

[00:10:45] Nathan Wrigley: I can't read that. apologies. But, oh. Look, look, as if to make it easy, keep the golden di. Golden diag. Thank you James. Appreciate that. Michelle is in the bullseye of the eclipse. Nice. hello from Berlin says Max. Hi Max, nice to have you with us. Hey Max. And we love Andrew. Well, he's now gone from the call, so I can't even see his little black rectangle anymore, but I promise, if he comes, we'll get him back.

But appreciate all those lovely comments. How nice was that? That was absolutely ful. Fabulous. Wonderful. Okay, let's crack on with the show, shall we? Let's talk about WordPress and all the bits and pieces to do with it. Firstly, oh, hang on. He's here. It's Shall I, shall I try it? Hold on, let me take that off.

Let's try, let's see if I can get him in. Wow. Yay. Is he there? Can you hear Ross? No. Paper cut Head like Nathan has always. Can you hear us, Andrew? Because we can't hear you. now I understand maybe, going to the settings. So if you're on a desktop computer, Andrew, I can hear you perfectly and now we can hear you.

Okay. so I think everything is aligned. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Checking issues. New system. Ah, well nevermind. It's okay. I appreciate you joining us. I'm here. I'm here. Yeah. Thank you so much. We've already introduced you, we've said that you like WordPress and this show, I know I've been following on my, so we're just gonna crack on with all the bits and pieces for today and I appreciate you making the effort to get here.

I really do. so this is us wp builds.com. If you fancy subscribing to what we do, just put your email address in there and we'll send you two emails a week, one when we produce this show and one when we produce the podcast, which comes out on a Thursday. So no spam guarantee. speaking of podcasts.

Look at this, underrepresented in tech podcast, which Michelle does and I mentioned in the bio, but, you've got yourself a brand new co-host. What's going on, Michelle? Me too. Yeah. So Allie has moved on to other things and so she stepped back away from the project and co and, co-host of the podcast.

[00:12:54] Michelle Frechette: And so I took the first three months of this year as a little bit of a sabbatical. I recorded a few episodes, beer gets on one of them and put those out over the last few weeks. And then I've been working with, Samma, who works at Yost. I went to Taco and I said, am I allowed to ask her to be my co-host?

The, the rule is though, that if she comes on, you have to sponsor her time during her workday because I don't wanna be. Looking for sponsors for the show and the project. I want it to just be a thing that, that we can do and put out good in the world without having to do fundraising at the same time and, new fold.

And Yos said absolutely. We are so excited. And so Simon, I have been working on getting her all set up and last week we recorded the first episode where you can meet her and learn about her. she is nice. She's Palestinian and she is in the Netherlands, so she has a lot of vast experience and she is an absolute DEIB force to be reckoned with.

So I'm very excited to have her as my co-host. That's great. And yeah. Yeah, really nice. can I ask what was the technical burden like for Sam? Because it's, it's, you know, there's not a lot of technical stuff to acquire for a podcast, but there's a few bits and pieces, isn't there? Like a, gotta have a half decent ish microphone and a quiet environment and things like that.

Yeah. So if you had listened to the episode, you would know, no, I'm kidding. Cool. I didn't expect you Cool. No, but she is in a booth that they have created at the Yos headquarters there, and so Nice. the morning, that morning for me, afternoon for her, the, the techies got her all situated and taught her how to use all the equipment.

So she's in a very dedicated space for what they do with podcasting and recording for, You know, tutorials and things like that. So she is really happy that she gets to use all that great equipment. and we actually have added back the component of having this on YouTube as well, because I think it's fun to see people's faces.

Podcasts, you can listen to it absolutely. But if you like to watch on YouTube, you can actually see the interaction that happens. Nice. So we've added that background as well. Nice. There's a little bit of extra, but a little extra work for you involved there, I guess, with, just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:03] Nathan Wrigley: Typically nowadays there's so many good tools for putting things on YouTube. It's fairly straightforward, isn't it? But it's, anyway, it's just time consuming. Mm-Hmm. Bravo. thank you. Thank you for, you know, bringing it back to life, but also hopefully, you'll enjoy the relationship with summer in the days, weeks, and.

She's just come, she's a delightful human being. And I think everybody who doesn't already know her will get to know her this way and understand that she's just, just, you know, Allie was a wonderful partner and I can't say enough good things about the first few years that we had this. but if she had to step back then bringing Samah on his, you know, the next best thing to.

[00:15:41] Michelle Frechette: Just moving things forward and, and having that partnership between what I do and Yost and, and Samah. It's just, it's just a good union. Nice. Anyway, underrepresented in tech.com, and you can find the latest episode, 5th of April. It was released introducing you to Samar. So brilliant. There we go. Okay, let's get onto specifically WordPress things you may have noticed, occasionally WordPress gets an update.

[00:16:06] Nathan Wrigley: Sometimes it's bigger than others, and I felt this was actually quite a big one. So, 6.5 kind of dropped a little bit later than expected for a bunch of reasons. We don't need to go into that, but it's called Regina. hopefully by now you have got it on a WordPress install near you. The top level items, I suppose if you haven't really had a play.

but I'm sure you have, if you're watching this, you've got the ability now to manage your fonts across the site. A bit like the media library only now for fonts. That's, that's really killing a pain point, which lots of people had, so that's brilliant. there's a much more robust revision system. It looks neater and it does a lot more.

So hopefully you'll be able to get revisions of all sorts of different and new things. but also it's gonna be a whole lot easier to consume and roll back content if you made a mistake or something like that. it says here, play with enhanced background and shadow tools. You've seen this in all sorts of proprietary page builders.

The ability to sort of focus on a. Particular part of the image for the background and add opacity, and it goes to the lengths of figuring out what's probably the most likely color that you'll want that opacity to be, things like that. new data views, which I won't get into 'cause we're gonna have to race through a bunch of stuff today, but I'll just quickly read.

It says every piece of your site comes with a library of information and data. Now you can find what you need quickly and organize it however you like. Data views for pages, templates, patterns, and template parts, which is. Pretty much everything, you can see in a table or grid view with the option to toggle fields and make bulk changes.

I think if you're a developer, this is probably the most exciting, feature. the drag and drop is supposed to be smoother. I can't honestly say I've noticed the difference there. 'cause it was always pretty smoother for me. But apparently it is smoother, better link controls. Again, I didn't have an ax to grind with the old way of doing it, but I do like the new way of doing it.

interactivity. API Fab, the block bindings API, so you can connect fields to other parts, other bit different dynamic content, dah dah, dah. And then performance. Big improvements in performance. The, 110 performance updates, 25% in the load times of translated sites. And I think double the speed of loading the editor.

Again, I didn't, didn't really pick up on that. 'cause it always, I, I never really found that it was that laggy for me. But anyway, so there's an absolute boatload. I'm just gonna throw it open. If you've got any favorite bits you wanna talk about, dig into them now. So anybody that wants to interrupt, go for it.

[00:18:36] Michelle Frechette: I'll, I'll start. I wanna say, first of all, that Regina Carter, that it's named after you, you can't say it, the British way, she's an American, is an innovative violinist, jazz violinist. And so I think that the innovations and things that are coming forward with WordPress, I think Matt picked the perfect, jazz artist to pair and to put as the title for, or the name for this release.

I've put it out, I put her story out on underrepresented texts, Twitter account if anybody's interested. But, and you can listen to her on, YouTube. She is a, a, an a live person. She is, still performing and creating art and innovating and including so many others in how she innovates with music.

Nice. I thought that was cool. Interesting. Like that whole thing I normally just sort of pass passes me by. I don't really dwell on the, the sort of story of the jazz musician, but that's kind of cool that there is actually a meaningful story there. big it. Andrew, anything on 6.5? Yeah, I'm really glad that the Fond library made it into this release.

[00:19:37] Birgit Olzem: it was kind of a bummer our last, release, when I was part of the release team that we couldn't ship with the front library, but. It, it was really understandable because we, they wanted to have it really f foundational and strong, and ship shipping something only to, to ship it because we what set what we ship it, right?

doesn't make help anything. So I'm really glad that this, Comes into this, release now. And yeah. For funds, for custom funds, I'm always a user of custom funds, over the decade, like certain plugins. So from this perspective, I'm really happy to have something like this on a core immediately. I indeed, indeed.

[00:20:25] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Anything else to add, or is that just your favorite bit? it just, beside the performance, improvements, this really my, my main feature, I must admit, I didn't find my time or prioritize time to play around with, 6.5, time. 'cause I was kind of busy with other projects. but I will, Bring it on on the rest of the week, I will pray around and check meaning on a daily basis. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like there's as much in this release as there ever has been in other releases. You know, it was a really significant one. And, the speed, like I said, I really haven't noticed the speed, but I, I, I definitely stand corrected.

I'm sure it is quicker. I just haven't really picked it up for myself. Andrew, anything you wanna mention here? Well, where's a CF blocks gonna go if we've got, dynamic content fields and stuff like that? So it's kind of it. That's the thing with GPL, isn't it? Things will eventually, co. And then one of them will go, yeah.

[00:21:31] Andrew Palmer: Because the actual platform itself will say, oh, well that's a good idea. I'll put that in. So that's, that's a good addition actually, you know, linking dynamic stuff to custom fields. do we need a CF anymore? We probably do. You know, I'm not a developer, but, and I used a CF, but you know, if you can do that with blocks, there's gonna be lots of stuff coming in from WooCommerce, from other commerce things.

You can bring in databases, it's great, it'll be great for membership sites, all that kind of stuff, you know, and these little things get missed, I think by the overall, oh, the interactive, you know, interactive, interactive, API, that's a great thing, you know, developing blocks and making them content aware and all that kinda stuff.

But it's the, it's the tiny kind of little under announcement of connect blocks to custom fields or other dynamic content. That's massive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really is. Are non-developers, but for developers, the, the sky is now the limit. You can, you can connect any kind of dynamic content to a block. Yeah.

[00:22:41] Nathan Wrigley: It's gonna be, gonna be huge. I think for, ever since I discovered WordPress, I think one of the first things that I did was find a, a, like a custom post type plugin. And then soon after that, you know, I wanted fields to go inside that custom post type. So that was always my go-to, you know, install WordPress, then put something like a CF in there, and then go from there.

'cause I always knew that I just needed dynamic content. The, the sort of post editor as was, you know, the classic editor as we now call it. Well, yeah, I mean, I'm wondering what, what's gonna go, go with, pods, you know, which is community, community driven. will that survive? You know, that's a worry. Yeah.

[00:23:22] Andrew Palmer: 'cause it's a, it's a, you know, I sponsored it for a while. and then, you know you've got a CF itself because that's cha they, they, A, a CF kind of changed the rules on people, which, said you couldn't, you couldn't install a CF pro into a theme. Oh, we're gonna talk about that later, actually. So know that's we, we'll come into that.

[00:23:40] Nathan Wrigley: That's, that's an issue. And now, but now do you need to, will you need to, once we, we get used to it. Yeah. for the typical end user, I still think like com. Doing the whole blocks, and dynamic content will probably be quite a difficult enterprise, but we'll, we'll have to wait and see, you know, if that improvement, the experience of doing that is improved over time.

But it is a massive release. every site that I stuck it on, updated without a hitch, nothing went down, nothing weird happened. So, thank you to everybody who contributed. And of course we should probably end off with that list of names. There's the, 6.5 release squad. I'm not gonna name them all, but they're all on the screen.

and then here's a list of the contributors. And again, there's absolutely loads of them. I dunno what the, in. Exact number is, but there's so many. So thank you to everybody who committed their time, energy, resources to shipping 6.5 a faster version. okay, so 6.5 long live, the king. The king is dead, or the other way around.

so 6.5 is done as it were. Not quite, but you know what I mean. We've shipped the original version, so it's time to start planning for 6.6 and it's already begun. So the planning for 6.6, there's a, an article on the make WordPress, blog. Everything that we show on the screen today will be linked in the show notes, which come out tomorrow.

That's what that subscribe form at the beginning gets you access to. so we'll link to this, but here's the schedule. So the idea is to get, get the ball rolling, onto the beaters in early June, and then the date mooted for 6.6. General release will be July 16th. So it's really, it's not that far away.

but if you wanna be a part of that, click on the link in the show notes or simply Google WordPress 6.6 planning proposal and call for volunteers. The, the volunteers are obviously needed. There's a bunch of releases still releasing. The, release leads still required. I think the date for filling out comments on this, post has passed, but it does look like the post hasn't been updated or these roles haven't been fulfilled.

if that's the case, then maybe go there and add your name if you're interested. Okay. I don't suppose anybody's got anything to add to that one. Have they or have they? It's just, it's fulfilling to be part of a release. So if you have ever had the inkling to do it, you don't have to. you're not going into it blindly.

[00:26:09] Michelle Frechette: You're paired up with people. There's so much mentorship that happens within a release. and there's so many opportunities if you're not a coder. I'm not a coder. I have been part of two releases so far. because you can, there's so many things that need to be done. So if you ever have an inkling that you'd like to contribute.

You will be welcomed. Yeah, there is really a lot. very, very much so. Yeah. So go and check that post out. All right, quickly moving on then. Elliot's now gone from the comments he says, he said to n out for an appointment, but I just wanted to say that, one of the things that came out in 6.5 was the interactivity.

[00:26:44] Nathan Wrigley: API it enables you to do something somewhere on a page and it to update something somewhere else. That's probably the easiest way to think about it. Think about adding something to a shopping cart. You click add to cart, and then the shopping cart number goes from zero to one or something like that. So something done over here does something over there.

That's the easiest way to describe it. but it's quite complicated and there's a lot of technical skill required to implement it. And so Elliot, who's now not in the comments, gone out for an appointment, has made a YouTube video. It's 16 minutes long and it explains kind of soup to knots, how it all works.

So again, I'll link to that. But if you just go to YouTube and search for. What is the interactivity, API in WordPress 6.5, and you'll see that it's made by Elliot Richmond. So hat tip to him, for producing freely available content, all about WordPress stuff. Again, anybody got anything on that? Probably not only on your comments, soup to nuts.

[00:27:41] Andrew Palmer: I just, that's funny. It's, it's a thing. It's a thing, right? It's, I think it's an American thing. Have I picked that up from, I've never heard of it before in my life. It very much is. It's beginning to the end. Doesn't it mean like A to Z? I'm gonna say A to Z. Doesn't it mean like beginning to end, start to finish kind of thing?

[00:27:57] Michelle Frechette: It's American, so it's A to Z. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From the first course to the last. That's what, but I don't know why. It's like I was just as, as Andrew pointed that out, I'm suspecting it's the second of the two words that's, interesting. But I don't understand why soup and why not, what the heck is the, maybe not there petty for, it's the first course to the very last course.

So you have your first course would be your soup course, and you would have nuts with your aperitif afterwards. Now I know. So it's a meal thing. Okay. It's okay. I didn't realize that, but now I know you would probably say salad to pet for, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm now gonna make that the, the title of the show unless anybody's got an objection.

[00:28:43] Nathan Wrigley: Soup. I No objections. It's hilarious. Soup to knots. It is. unless we say something even more ridiculous as the episode goes on, it may happen. I thank you, Elliot, for your, video. It's really good. Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Elliot. Because it's useful to people. It is very useful to people. This stuff takes time as well.

Right? So it's 16 minutes long, but I'm gonna venture that, that. Probably took Elliot as like a day, you know, planning it, writing it, shooting it, editing it, getting rid of the mistakes, all of that kind of stuff. Going down a blind alley, realizing the mic wasn't switched on and you had to start again.

That kind of thing. so thank you, Elliot. Appreciate it. Okay. Right. Moving on. So, wordpress.org got a, a new lick of paint. Literally got a new lick of blue paint. I still don't know why it's got that smudge on the side, but there it is. and I quite like it. I love the design. Actually, I, I got word of this from Miriam Schwab.

She was on Twitter. She didn't message me, she just put a tweet out and I caught sight of it and it said, you know, well look, we've got a new design. So I went over there and I thought, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna have my critical hat on. This, by the way, is not my critical hat, but I loved it the moment I saw it.

I thought, this is great. I just love the design. so here it is, you know, you've got the idea. Meet WordPress. It's very modern, pretty minimalist. There's a, there's quite a lot of writing on there. but it explains, you know, that it's about design, build, extend. It explains what's new. but then quite a few people, I think, not disliked it, but they just had a little, little gripes here and there and, and I found a few courtesy of Courtney.

Thank you Courtney, for sending me. and because I'm not, logged into Twitter, I've had to just do a screenshot of them. but John o Alderson. He says it's less ly. I dunno what fugly means, but I'm gonna use that word every day for the rest of my life. So it's the expletive plus ugly. Oh, I'm not gonna use that word every day for the rest of my life.

[00:30:51] Michelle Frechette: Probably another Americanism. Yeah. Okay. All right. So we've just been canceled on, YouTube. it's less that word, but it does nothing to speak to the needs and pain points of its audience. And this is the central premise of another tweak we'll show you in a minute, or to converse in anything other than internal speak.

[00:31:10] Nathan Wrigley: What is a block? Why should I care? How do webs, how do I website with this thing? this is just more evidence of how wide WPS marketing gap is chiming in. I don't think the same tweet, different tweet altogether. So not in the same thread or anything, but Phil Wade, I. Said it feels like WordPress generally doesn't know who its audience, audience is.

Illustrated, nearly where the site talks about no code, just click and insert content, and then directly underneath starts talking about building React components. yeah. because I went in with my, like, you know, I was just gonna, I just fell in love with the design of it. I didn't really pick up on any of those kind of things.

I wasn't really getting into that. But anyway. And then one last one, Jeff, Jeff Chandler. he was talking about the links and I think you can see from the screen if you're watching this, it looks like the links at some point were the same color. As the body text. So the paragraphs are the same color and size and everything as the links they were on the line.

So there was that. but it does look like that's now been addressed because that exact link is this one. and it looks like they've now been made into the, the kind of WordPress blue I'm gonna call it. So gripes, but also what I think is quite a nice design over to, I answered Jono. Say again? I replied, I replied to Jono.

Yeah, I did actually see your reply. The only problem is because I'm not logged in, it only shows me the original tweet, so I wasn't able to, so I'll tell you what I said. Okay. Please. I think it's, I think it's relevant and some feedback somewhere. I dunno what's going on. I disagree. I think it's a massive of improvement and takes a few hints from proprietary systems.

[00:32:58] Andrew Palmer: Somewhere along the line an explanation is necessary. If someone is looking to build their own website, they're quite willing to read something for a few minutes. I'd like the Insta WP link or similar. To be live for all users is that would increase conversion. I'm certain, certainly after the homepage it falls down a bit, but as Nick d points out, it's an iteration on what was there before.

A genuine try before you buy installed would be awesome though. Let's be positive. Okay. WordPress pr, right, right. So when I, because I've got Insta WP, or I signed into inta wp, I've, I've, I can instant it puts, it puts its icon on the, on the WordPress page. Now I know that Automatic and investors in, in instant, Insta, wp.

So, you know, that might be a, a lead in or, you know, lead to playground or install it on a playground or something. You know, play with allow people, like the proprietary systems do allow people to play with it and get used to it. And then I think WordPress. Dot org we'll see much more success, much more convergence.

[00:34:02] Nathan Wrigley: Interesting. So the idea being maybe up here instead of, instead of just the get WordPress button, maybe something like try WordPress and then link to a, I don't know, playground like you said, or something akin to Insta. wp, you've gotta imagine that automatic, I've got the, the capability to, to launch something of their own, a bit like into the wp I'm not advocating that, I'm just saying, you know, that their ability to do that is not in question, but Yeah, that's a good point.

But you like the design though. And I, I do too. I, I, I did. I like, and the, the splash of color is to, to, in my view, you know, from old school advertising agency, that smash of color was always there. If you had like a paintbrush of color, it was always there to illustrate creativity. That's it. So that's why that's there, in my view.

[00:34:49] Andrew Palmer: And, and I love the fact that it absolutely says straight away, above the fold, design, build, extend. Perfect. Nice. Yeah, just exactly what you, what you really, I really, I really like this and I think that anybody that critiques it come up with a better design with, with the current content that, that's my view, you know, really is don't, don't just critique it out there.

If you think you can design this better do it. I absolutely, I absolutely agree. when you click on the about page, on the Yep. Left. Yeah. So just on about, they will find, a, Page in the sub menu when you hover over the technology, the details, and the people in the sub menu below the get word spective on the right hand side.

[00:35:44] Birgit Olzem: Yeah. So there you can dive more into the, I love that the, structures more, readability, enforce more readability. but also, the new design I want to mention was also rolled out, on the local sites like de WebPress org. we had several members of the German speaking community translating all content on WebPress org.

and then the new theme, got activated last week for de WebPress org. Now, after we managed to bring all translations up to hundred percent. Oh, nice. So many local sites also using now the new look of the WordPress org side. So Michelle, you said to me that you thought the splash looked and I've I see it now.

[00:36:38] Nathan Wrigley: If I squint, I'm, I'm with you. I, somebody else said it and I just said, now I can't unsee it. Yes. Yeah. And that is, it looks like a pig if you, very long pig. Right. So this is like front, front leg. Like this is the face here, right? Mm-Hmm. Yeah. I'm seeing it. I'm not gonna be able to unsee it, but, but to add to what Andrew said about that splash of color, if you've ever been to like a, a, a long established, restaurant or, or, you know, meeting place or whatever, and they had this original wallpaper that they've then now reu like covered over and whatever, and they unpeel it and they put a frame around it to say, this is our humble beginnings.

[00:37:17] Michelle Frechette: I see that splash of blue as a hearken back to this is WordPress blue. We are still innovating. We are still, but this is our, also our humble beginnings. I, I, I. I'm a self-confessed fan. I do. I like it. And like Andrew says, it can be an iteration, but like you say, Andrew design build extend. That is the point.

[00:37:38] Nathan Wrigley: The, I had a chat with, Jamie Marlin last week, for a podcast episode coming up actually on Wednesday, on the tavern. And, he was saying that he was in touch with the people at Wix and their marketing department is 500 fully paid op employees and man alive. You know, that is quite the, that is quite the, the body count.

just working on the marketing of Wix. And so, you know, you're gonna expect that to be impressive. And, and I've heard a few people making comparisons in that direction with this page, and it's, it's hard to do the, tell you something about commer the commercial world where invest in marketing because marketing is sales.

[00:38:27] Andrew Palmer: You know, I've, I've grown up in sales and marketing director leads and all this kind of stuff, and I see the first, I mean, I, I saw when GoDaddy made a load of redundancy, they, they made people redundant in marketing. Why? That's the, that's the last people that go. Because if you stop marketing your product, you will, you'll see a, a downturn, a massive downturn.

500 people working in Wix marketing department, one that would be really hard to, corral. Must be like herding cats for the marketing directors. Yeah. And two, it just shows what a massive investment they're making in letting people know what Wix is all around. Yeah. And they are. Under 1% of the web.

[00:39:11] Nathan Wrigley: Should you have a quick look at the Wix website? I've never done this before. I feel almost like I'm betraying somebody or something like that. But let's have a quick look. See what the, see what the Wix website looks like. Create without limits. Create a website without limits. Online store put, that's far less inspiring in my view.

Sorry. Wix marketing team. Look at the big, if you hit Get started, you, you basically walk into Wix and just, you're, you're, you're there. Sign up. You're off. You see that is a big difference, isn't it? There's no hosting requirements. There's no talking about. Caching or any of that, you've straight in anyway.

We're not here to talk about Wix. Get rid of that. We're, we're all about the WordPress. I like it. I'm putting my flag in the sand and saying I like it. It's an iteration, but I think it's a very credible first attempt. It just smacks some professional, I think. I agree. And it's got some big names on there that saying who are using WordPress as well.

[00:40:01] Andrew Palmer: Ah, I didn't ask speak. Get to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's got the social, it's got social proof, it's got some samples. It's got, everything that you want to have. And let's, let's be honest here. wordpress.org does not have the, the kind of investment that it needs to support the millions of websites that are built on it.

It just doesn't have it. And it's, it's a shame because it's given all of us an opportunity to earn a living and it's giving, hundreds of, hundreds of thousands of people an opportunity to. You know, surf the web safely. In my view, WordPress is a, is is one of the greatest innovations of this century. It really is.

It's a force for good. Incredible. It is, yeah, definitely force for good. Force for good. by the way, if you do click on this link, you get to the Wonderful Showcase website, which just is a laundry list of like the great and the good in the, in the, in the world. You know, it's not just, in, well, it's all over the planet basically, but there's a lot of focus on, English speaking at the moment, but you'll be able to see some of the big hitters out there, including the New York Times.

[00:41:10] Nathan Wrigley: There's obviously NASA and, yeah, pretty impressive. So I like that page. And, and so, yeah, Bravo. Thank you to anybody who. You know, took part in making that, Gutenberg, let's just move on slightly. Gutenberg, has, is coming around, well, 27th of March. I, I should say. I was, we, we had a week off, and Gutenberg 18, I sort of missed this, so I'm sort of fitting in like a few days later, a week later.

some of the high level items, which I just wanted to mention, which will be coming to our website near you. style variation. So the site's view screen is now populated with the controls to set site wide color. Typography choices. You can watch this little 22nd video if you'd like to, to get a gist of what that's about.

Users can use the media and text block in their templates now, as it supports the featured image. So that's nice as well. big it shows off drop shadow controls on some images. There's a few little default ones in there, which are quite nice to play with. And grid. Grid, come on, grid. Woo-hoo. We all want grid, grid layout experiments are the next step to consistent responsiveness of post, so that's being played with as well.

And if we get grid, I'm gonna be entirely happy because it's always so difficult to un to know what exactly what you're thinking. Nathan. Yeah, I, I I'm very, I keep my cards close to my chest. You do? that's right. so anyway, that's Gutenberg 18. Anybody want to talk or should we just crack right on?

[00:42:42] Andrew Palmer: Crack on, I think. Well, I'm happy. Crack on. Alright. Yeah, good. Sounds good to me. Anne McCarthy, who's been on the show a number of times, she wants to talk about what's next in Gutenberg. So we've had, obviously 18, we've just looked at, a series of hallway hangouts. or rather a hallway hangout is being organized.

[00:42:59] Nathan Wrigley: Put your date in the calendar if you are interested in the future of the project. Gutenberg is a massive part of that. it's gonna be happening on Thursday the 25th at, midnight in Britain. is that right? Yeah. anyway, so go and check that out. I will again link to that in the show notes so you can go and check it out.

and I think. Did anybody, big, you'd mentioned that you read this through, right? I think I misunderstood this. This is, over on GitHub. It's the six point announcement feedback. This person who you know the name of, but I doubt. Yeah. Oh, Mario, it says, yeah, Mario. he was talking about the way that WordPress 6.5 was announced to the world, not like what's in WordPress 6.5.

Yeah. Did you get an intuition as to what he was saying here? it, basically, ends up, about telling what they are getting. it, it misses some kind, the, the real use cases of the certain functionality. that is what he's, suggesting that, the community who published a, announcement post, goes more into the practical, experience what you can achieve with certain functionality.

[00:44:13] Birgit Olzem: that is what I'm getting from it. especially in, re. Bring something, media Corps can pick up on to, publish and, and amplify the new version. What is infrared? As we circling back to what other competitors, are doing with their marketing, there's a lot of room of improvement, Mario suggests here to, bring more, practical.

Experience to the announcement posts. yeah, but Right. So it's the, it's the, the way the things that are being described are maybe a bit, a bit too utilitarian and we need to describe like what the benefits to you. Yeah. As a, as a non-word pressor, I guess. It's hard, isn't it? And this comment coming in from Atif kind of highlights the problem.

[00:45:03] Nathan Wrigley: Sorry, Andrew, you've been completely erased, from the show. it says, in my opinion, the problem with WordPress is trying to appeal to everyone at every level. It may help to segment based on user journey and market each one in a more focused way. I suspect that you could do that if you were Wix and had 400 people and you could, you know, you could ab test every which way, and you could probably follow people through the website and channel them down to a particular page.

But I guess it's gonna be sort of more one size fits all for wordpress.org. Well, I, I think, I, I think, I think that what Marrow's talking about is, is. Less of a change log, more of a Mm-Hmm. Descriptive. That's, that's really what it is. Yeah. 'cause it's, let's not forget that the people that are making WordPress for us, you know, and contributing and everything, the majority, Michelle, I know that you're a contributor as well, but the, you know, certainly on releases are, are techies.

[00:45:58] Andrew Palmer: So they, they're basically what we're seeing is a change log, which we see in every kind of theme or every kind of plugin or whatever. So, Mario, I get ma what Mario's trying to say. But who's gonna do it? Yeah, exactly. That is definitely exactly when I was part of the, 6.4 release tea, I was responsible to put into, the call for pa testing paper, and I was struggling myself to, find the right wording to, to sell the function of the, feature, to explain and understand, what it does it make and what, what is it standing for.

[00:46:41] Birgit Olzem: And, even if I'm a long term contributor to WordPress, I'm really deep into WordPress, but I sometimes struggle understanding the functionality. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that is, and, and when you imagine an A regular user, like someone who is, having a car mechanic shop and wants to build a website, by themself and they don't understand what they're meaning with interactivity and blocks.

And here they just want to know how they can, showcase their com, company, but also how to, get an, calendar on it or a booking form or something. That is the user cases. And that is what, I have also mentioned is like the user journey. We need to make sure that certain functionality are more explained to the regular user, but also we have parts for more advanced and deep involved users.

So I, I agree with you, but who, who's gonna do it? Yeah, exactly. And that is. Something, where we really need more volunteers who are more focused on that and Sure. I'll, I'll just just raise a couple of things. I, I'm going to regret this in the morning. I'm raising the Wix website again. Look, the, it's, there's the user journey right there.

[00:48:01] Nathan Wrigley: What are you doing? I've want an online store. I want a blog. I'm a consultant. I want, I've got a service business, I've got a restaurant. You click the button. I'm guessing you get some kind of customized, version of the platform based upon what you click here again, right? That's in off for you. Gone off.

Away you go. and Nat, so in here you were talking about, you know, describing things in a, in a way, which is not necessarily gonna engage the public, I suppose. This is a good example. So in this, Mario says, why make such a big deal of the font library when basically that's an expectation of every platform.

You know, there isn't one platform. He does say that Medium apparently doesn't have that, but every other platform that's standard. And although it's new in WordPress, is it actually something which is gonna sell it to people? Isn't the expectation that, of course you can manage fonts, that's just de rigor.

but anyway, so there you go. Right. Can I just add though, I do revision though. Revisions are good. The new, you know, the, the control over block revisions, for instance. That's cool. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. 'cause, you know, I make, I make mistakes. I, I, I arrive late for podcasts and make mistakes on websites.

[00:49:12] Andrew Palmer: It's okay. We let you in. We let you in. Michelle. Marketing WordPress isn't just about getting people to use WordPress, though. It's open source, which means we're always marketing for people to join the community and contribute as well. And so there's this dichotomy of, marketing needs and, and the website.org has to manage both of those at the same time, which is not always an easy task.

[00:49:34] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. to more important news, Atif wants to know. is anyone in the US able to see the eclipse or have seen, super jealous from the uk? Michelle, oh, sorry. I, I know I shouldn't derail the show. Is it literally going over where you live? Is it, or do you have to like travel? Yes. no, I, I'm going to go into my front yard.

[00:49:55] Michelle Frechette: I'm in the path of totality right over my hometown. That's the name of the podcast this week. The Path of Totality from Soup to Knots. That's, I'm gonna, that is the, if the, if the sky clears because, well, no, you'll still be in the path of totality. You just won't be able to see it. I'll, I just won't be able to see it.

It'll get dark. Yeah. Yeah. And the birds will stop singing and apparently it's just really eerie. even though you know what's coming. It's just the fact that it all happens so quick and everything gets silent and, and mercury's and retrograde right now too, which makes Woo even more, I dunno what means everything's, that's why everything Techn technologically at the moment, pale.

[00:50:37] Andrew Palmer: Oh, really? Less than two weeks ago, we also had a lunar eclipse. So we are in like in between two eclipses during a Mercury retrograde, which if you follow astronomy at all, I mean astrology at all, then that would be interesting to you. This is this week in astronomy. I think episode number 219 two.

[00:50:54] Nathan Wrigley: There's so many titles. Yeah. no luck in Seattle says Camie. No, no, no luck in blighted. I'll share over this side of the pond. I'll share photos later though. I promise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, what you could do is just share a black photo, just entirely black. If, and just say, there it is. If I don't get any good photos slash Unsplash has a bunch I can claim as my No, no.

I'm quite jealous. I was saying before we hit record that that is fully on my bucket list. I really want to do that. Before we, we had one, 1999 Yes. in Germany, so yes. But it's long time ago. I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you, I have to say that I'm completely disinterested by it. That's okay. I mean, you know, you turn up for the show late, you don't get any choice about what we speak about.

There is some truth in that. I had a friend who in the same year being it, in 1999, it went over Cornwall and I, I have a friend who drove to Cornwall, put up with the attendant misery of the traffic jams and everything, trying to get there and then slept, had a few too many drinks and slept for nine minutes or however long.

Three. Three. It's just a little over three minutes. Three minutes? Yeah. I just saw, saw, saw a TikTok, some, hours ago. about a map, the, the path of the total, yeah. Totality and the, hotels and Airbnbs hotels and Airbnb book. Kind of similar. Blowing up the same way. Okay. Yeah, yeah. we should, we need the photo from your front yard of the eclipse in the photo directory.

[00:52:32] Michelle Frechette: I shall do my darnedest to get good photos, I promise. And you can approve it all by yourself, which is kind of nice. And just a reminder to anybody else who's going to try to photograph it, you need to put a filter over your lens, or you'll blow out your, your phone's camera. Or whatever expensive camera that you might have.

So if you've got the glasses, you can take that off and you can put that over your phone lens and also take Yeah, and then don't look up at the sun. Just don't do that. okay. Right. So we had this, and I'm not gonna show the Shopify I am very quickly. I'll just do it. This is the, this is the shopify.com website.

[00:53:06] Nathan Wrigley: this is their lending experience, which actually to my mind is just really busy. Is that the actual page though? The, no, it's the, it's linked from the previous article. Mario, I think links to it, right? Yeah, it, it's shows the announcement of new features. so, but you know, look at, I mean, there is quite a contrast in the level of expense and and all of that that's required to put this together.

But there is quite a lot, and it probably used ai, but you have to, that whole, you can't get rid of that image and without scrolling, so you have to actually invoke scrolling for that to happen. I, I find that a bit discombobulating. How, yeah. Is it even at all accessible, is my question? It does not, no. I don't know.

[00:53:49] Michelle Frechette: I accessible. But I think the point was though, it's more about like just there is definitely a comparison to be made about the amount of, attention to detail, let's put it that way, and the focus that they're able to bring to bear. Anyway, we haven't got enough time to get into all that. So let's go to Yost.

[00:54:06] Nathan Wrigley: Yost, the person. Not yos, the company he wrote on the, the post status blog this week, a piece called The Future is Open Source. And basically it's yos saying, I love open source, which is, I think is probably true, that all four of us are the same. and, but it was just a nice little piece sort of saying, look, I'm really into open source.

I want open source to win. We have to have open source. Winning. It's just, you know, that's the best future for everybody and everything. And then right at the bottom, the, the, the article kind of rounded off with the perfect phrase for me. He said, perhaps WordPress has become so big that we have our own very own community and are in less need to belong to the broader open source community as well.

Still, I would invite you to try out all these open source software projects and cheer them on. And when he says, you know, try out, he's, he mentions a few in the, in the thing, the paragraph above, all these different open source projects to solve problems like Calendly and documentation and booking systems and CRMs and all this.

I use cal.com. I think it's Do you? Yeah. It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd never even heard of it. And apparently they do have a, it's a sas, but they have an open source variety, which you can obviously download and install. But I, I just kind of thought that's true. When I think about open source, I, I do use other open source projects, but I never end up talking about them.

Just drone on about WordPress all the time. And I think Yo's point is, is good if, if you're in, if you're into open source for one thing, you probably should be into it for as many things as you can do, and bang the gong and let people know that you are using it and that there's these three alternatives out there so that you know, so that everybody can experience it and celebrate it.

Anything on that? I just wanna know who's broadcasting today from the racetrack. 'cause it sounds like there's cars. Zoom by. Yeah. Think Andrew? Yeah, we do. Andrew, can you just do us a favor underneath, I don't know what device you're on, but underneath the screen is a little mute icon. Would you mind when you are not talking, would you, would you stick the mute on?

'cause we are getting like quite a loud, I think it's from you. 'cause it, it wasn't there until after you joined. Yeah, I, I did hear it. I wasn't sure it was from me 'cause I'm not hearing anything here. But anyway. Okay. I, I'll, I'm happy to do that. Yeah. Mute it. Just, nx like Linux. Yep. Nginx. Yep. We all, everybody who has a website will use something like Linux or Nginx open source.

[00:56:36] Andrew Palmer: So we, we, so thanks Yost for your advice. We actually all do use open source. I'm aware of it, but it's, he, I see where he is coming from because, you know, WordPress is open source. All of the plugins that go into WordPress, certainly on the WordPress repository are open source. You do, we do have an issue where we have the GPL farms out there that are selling premium items of open source plugins and licensing and all that kind of stuff.

You know, to be honest, one of my, you know, I use Divvy. I'm a, I'm an advocate for Divvy and shoot me. I don't care. But I love divvy. I always have, it's not on the repository 'cause it's kind of, it's a theme and it's, there's also some proprietary software in there or some hiding going on of whatever.

There's obs, obs, ation and stuff like that, so it's not suitable to go on the repo, but, but it's still successful. You know, you still got 700,000 websites built with, with Divvy theme. So, you know, that's quite, that's quite a big, it's quite a big. Seen. So, you know, you've got Element, I was looking at GPL farms this morning while I was doing the personal stuff that I was doing.

'cause I, I will admit what I was doing. I was wandering around Ikea and we got caught up in a queue and then traffic. So there you go. There's no worse thing in life than to get caught in ikea. Frankly. It's, I was, I was trapped. Oh, I was absolutely trapped. And I, I'd rather so my own legs off than get stuff in Ikea floor been no good for my bad back, whatever.

Can we please go? No, I don't want meatballs, let's go. Right. But anyway, so Ginex Lin Hooks all the GPL farms. You know, GPL has its own, own issues. You know, you see all the time on Twitter Pro, plugin developers complaining that their, their plugin, their premium plugin is now available on a GPL farm. It doesn't actually do you much damage because you don't, you just don't give support for it.

The only reason it's premium, hopefully, is that you, you offer support. That's the way you get paid for support, but we, the open source is unbelievably big. That's what Yost is coming, is coming from. It's unbelievable. Without open source, we wouldn't be able to work with web. It's that simple. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Imagine having to pay for Linux, every instance of Linux, or having to pay for every instance of n Engine X or whatever. Yeah. Hosting platform, they're, they're all using hosting wouldn't be two 50 a month, would it? No, $2 50 a month. It would hundred $50 a month, you know, minimum, because you'd have to pay licensing for everything, but there you go.

I am, I'm subscribing to yours. I'm not sure what my point was, but anyway. No, no, no. It's okay. I mean, basically saying go out and support other open source projects, not just the WordPress ones. Mm-Hmm. And, this is nice. Nero, we're back to astronomy. his old boss set off the fire alarm so that everybody could go outside to see the eclipse.

[00:59:34] Nathan Wrigley: Honestly, what kind of a curmudgeon are you? If you are a boss and there's an eclipse and you don't let the staff go out to enjoy the eclipse that well, maybe if you work in a hospital, right. Maybe that's not okay. Prob probably me. Really? No. Okay, I've got a few more titles now. shoot Me, I don't Care, is one of them.

And, and getting stuck in Ikea. So there's four to contend with. We'll decide at the end, what's gonna win. Right. Moving on, I just wanted to say a big thank you for making me laugh this week, to Lawrence Laie. he, he, he did the old, fake product April Fool's Day thing, and he came up with this idea of Press Craft, which was my, the Gutenberg editor inside of Minecraft.

And I have little, well, I had little children. They played many hours of Minecraft, so I'm, I'm very familiar, with the interface of Minecraft. And I just thought, bless you, Lawrence, just for the sake of making us all, you know, giggle a bit, you went to the lengths of rendering a version of the Gutenberg editor inside of, Minecraft.

So thank you for that. It's brilliant. It's over on. Oh, I've lost the mouse. There we go. It's over on WP Biz Dev. It's called WordPress for Minecraft. Leaked. which apparently it was anything to say. Probably brilliant. Not That's cute. Okay. Another podcast to mention. This one has now apparently, reached the end of its, like season.

Maybe it's the end of its, whole thing. It's sustain WP and Bigge. I want you to help me out. How do I say the name? I'm struggling myself. now I now Ola. Yes. I apologize. Now, I I'm actually gonna be talking to him later this week, but I just want to mention the fact that this podcast exists.

It's a limited podcast series about digital sustainability. The idea of making your, exactly, yeah. Making your websites have less of an impact, less of a footprint on the environment and what have you. So it goes into all of the different bits and pieces. What is environmental sustainability on the internet?

introduction to that, introduction to the social pillar of sustainability, the economic pillar. How can we make websites more sustainable and so on. So there are nine episodes because it starts like, all good things do on episode zero. so go and check it out. It's Sustain WP dot. Com mentioning I was only also part of this, series.

[01:02:08] Birgit Olzem: Oh, I do apologize. Didnt know that's Oh, yeah. When you scroll down, then you see the faces of, who are, interviewed for that. Oh, you indeed. Look, I was just gonna mention Hannah Smith as well. I was, I was very lucky to meet Hannah Smith on a plane, sat next to her on the plane to Serbia. She was unlucky.

[01:02:29] Andrew Palmer: I was very lucky. Yeah, I was gonna say, it's not always even, is it? She was seeing the, one of the gigs, but she is a top notch person in WordPress. She's coder. yeah, she teaches WordPress. Yeah. But she also, I'm trying to look for it now, but she also heads up a, a company or a, not-for-profit, which is called about, yeah, it's called the, called Sustainability Foundation or something like that.

[01:02:53] Nathan Wrigley: That's what it, yeah. So she's, so you're in very, very good. A company there because she's, she's awesome. She's, she's one of my, my, she's one of my heroes in WordPress. She's so clever. Crazy. I'm going to, I'm gonna use this opportunity to Google something quickly. WP Tavern, Hannah Smith, and then I'm probably gonna plug a podcast episode.

Yeah. Episode 52 on the Tavern, is called Anna Smith on why we need, why we need to be making websites more sustainable. You can go and find out, listen to her wise words, but also go and listen to beer. Yeah. Right on the, sustain wp.com website. Which episode are you, or are you sort of throw out?

[01:03:34] Birgit Olzem: And it is, every episode has contained some snippets from each person or several persons. now I, I did some, recording and, and split it into different, episodes. Oh gosh, that's a lot of work editing, things like that. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And wow, I really admire that, this work for that.

[01:03:56] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. total eclipse of the Blocks. Oh, now that's a good title as well. Oh, he's too smart. I wrote that one down total. I've got one thing. I've got a little project tip for people talking about sustainability. Yeah. You know how everyone hates sliders, right? Because they slow websites down and everything like that.

[01:04:16] Andrew Palmer: So I was talking to a client who's kind of into the planet and, and planet Earth, oh no, we must have this slider. We must have this video, and we've gotta embed the video. And I said, well, I don't really think that's appropriate because you, you, you, you're talking about saving the planet, but actually your website's gonna not be.

Very good for the planet if you have loads of sliders loading and videos embedded. So it would probably be better not to have that. And they went, yeah, I think the, the recommendation, right? So I use sustainability to stop me having to faff around and, and optimize speed on, on sliders and yeah. Nice. Large videos.

[01:04:55] Nathan Wrigley: Suppose I think that, that, I think that conversation is gonna become more and more. important. Mm-Hmm. And we've got the likes of, actually Yost coming back again. Yost and Marika. They've invested in, a plugin. They did that at WordCamp Europe in, in Athens, from Louise Tower based in the uk. which is, which is gonna offer you support with your sustainability goals when you're creating websites.

It's gonna make suggestions, as to what you can do. And, and also it might link to hosting companies and things like that, and give you feedback about your actual carbon footprint based upon the server it's on and things like that. It's really clever and, just, I'm gonna Google it again. Go and Google WP Tavern, Louise Tower, and you'll get an episode, all as well.

Well, I, I just recently, and I won't point to it, but I just recently wrote a blog post our, our website's over-Engineered, and I think they are. And I think that, that, ooh, you know, no, I think they're, I think with all the page builders in the world. Even Gutenberg, you know, all the, all everything, all the extensions that we can put on, all the sliders, the videos, the popups and everything with, they, they're complete from a user, user, user or a UI perspective.

[01:06:06] Andrew Palmer: I think that they're over-engineered. You get popups and there you can't, you can't read a use paper site now on your mobile phone. It's almost impossible because of all the Oh, yeah. The local newspaper sites. So they're not, they're not even thinking about no traction or stickiness or anything like that.

It's just annoying to, to read something on your tablet or mobile phone. Yeah. So I, I wrote a blog post about I, you know, our websites over-engineered, and I think they're, so that right. I mean, comp I completely first paragraph, by the way, I'm biased on this. Yes, I think they are, but here's why I think they are.

You know, and I think we, we've calm down a bit. Yeah, speaking of calming down, we've got a traitor in our midst that's got nothing calming down. Look, it's Lacey,

[01:06:52] Nathan Wrigley: big it, Paul Lacey used to do this show every single week with me, and then, then he decided he had better things to do with his Monday. So he, he got on with his life and I've labeled him a traitor ever since. And, and it's, it's never funny, but I keep saying it. But thank you, Paul, for dropping in on the comments.

I appreciate that. It's been a while since Paul's joined us. Right? Okay. Now I don't even know what to make of this. Right? I got sent an email by somebody. I did not receive this email and I honestly thought that's an April fool. This is the email, right? So I've put it in Evernote. You ignore that. Woo. What?

WooCom woo.com. Migrating back to woocommerce.com. Hi, there. As many as your, as many of you are aware, woo has, woo has been seeing a decline in organic traffic to the.com woo.com website and the WOO marketplace since the March, 2024 Google search algorithm update. As a result, the Woo team have decided to revert our domain back from woo woo.com to woocommerce.com tomorrow at, well, it doesn't matter tomorrow.

it says the Google search algorithm update, one of the largest in history significantly impacted the recovery from our domain migration to Woo, which has previously been trending back to normal. a panel of experts have been assembled, SEO experts, and they've decided that. They're just gonna throw the lot in and go back to woocommerce.com.

Honestly, I know who these experts are. I wanna know who they're, it's the biggest mistake they'll ever make. Do you do, so first of all, right, is that email a real thing? Is this actually happening? Yeah. Okay. and tell me why you think that's a mistake, given that obviously they've done a bit of research.

It's, woo com is already indexed under a, pretty much every search term that woocommerce.com is. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Right. So whether it's a, whether it's a useful content update that's done it, you know, the HCU or helpful content update that's done, it is irrelevant to the fact that they changed their domain name.

[01:08:59] Andrew Palmer: So they just gotta, just gotta, you know, bite the bullet and carry on if, if they, so now they get, what they're gonna do now is rather than redirect everything from woocommerce.com to woo.com, they're gonna reverse that redirection and put it so they're gonna lose, they're gonna lose. Right. I, I, I don't understand what mean they 3 0 1, well, they three.

If you 3 0 1 something, it's a permanent redirect. Right? You're telling Google it's a permanent redirect. Yeah. So that's been going on for a few weeks now, I dunno how long ago they changed to woo.com. Maybe a month ago. No, November. So that, so all the, all the three oh ones have been going to Google and they began.

Okay, then that's a 3 0 1, that's a permanent redirect. Great. Now they're gonna do the same again, but in reverse. And, and they're gonna, so they, they wanna degenerate the, the, the woo.com stuff. So stuff that they've already called a permanent redirect will always be a permanent redirect for the next few months, because that's what Google have registered it as.

So they'll lose even more traffic. In my humble opinion, as a bloke that's been doing SEO for most of his working life, I cannot see the sense in, in changing. Now, back to woocommerce.com, they made a branding decision of woo.com. Stick with it. Just, you know, suck it up guys and just stick with it. And, and then eventually you'll get back because the helpful, the, the HCU has not stopped.

A helpful content update is still go going on now. So if they, if they're trying to then game the system by saying, oh, we'll go back to woocommerce.com, it's gonna fail, and they'll see even less traffic. Yeah, I've, I've just done a quick, I dunno who the, I dunno who the SEO gurus are that they're asking, but I'll tell you what, I'm, I have just done a few quick searches, all sorts of different ways, you know, woo woo updates, WooCommerce updates, and every single search that I've done so far is linking to woo.com.

[01:11:00] Nathan Wrigley: so the, the, it is definitely in there somehow. If you do a, if you do a site call on woocommerce.com and a site on woo.com Yeah. And put 'em up in different windows. They're identical. Pretty much identical anyway, so that's a real email. and I dunno if Bigot or Michelle have got anything to add to that.

[01:11:21] Michelle Frechette: I, I just think that reverting back to a previous brand worked for Coke from Coca-Cola, a new Coke to Coke Classic, which is just back to Coke again. Do you prefer the, do you prefer the, do you prefer WooCommerce as a, like, as a thing to say out loud, if you know what I mean? Do you like that branding better?

I've never adopted the new, it's Al WooCommerce is what always comes out of my mouth, so, yeah. Yeah. it's the same for me as well. The reason for the Woo brand is that, because, you know, they've got a marketplace, they've got plugins, they extensions their own stuff as well. And I, I, it doesn't matter whether you like WooCommerce or whether you like Woo, it's done.

[01:12:04] Andrew Palmer: And I don't, I really, they're still gonna suffer for the next three to six months anyway. So what's the point? They might as well just carry on with woo.com, carry on with their 3 0 1 redirects and just see they'll, and, and particularly my main point is the helpful content update is still ongoing. So to change it now is gonna make absolutely no difference apart from the fact they may lose even more traffic.

Crazy. It's a crazy news. I have to apologize to a variety of people whose comments have not coming to our platform. So I apologize if you've written something which really probably should have come into the show, but never made it. but a proportion of them have come over. I would say about 80% of the comments have come through and a few have not.

[01:12:48] Nathan Wrigley: So, for example, Cameron, this one didn't come through, but it says, they shouldn't have changed the domain in the first place. And changing it back will make it worse because they're doing the same thing again. That then is corroborated or, you know, like thumbs do kind of thing, from Mark West Guard who says same thing.

Paul Lacey, he, he's fast forwarded the 20 minutes that he was lagging just so that he could watch me trolling him. Oh, brilliant. and it's, Peter Ingersol has said, oh, well, I can actually show that one. That one has come through. woo Woo. Commerce feels like X Twitter without the level of hype.

Of course. okay. Do the Woo not as catchy. Do the Woo Commerce not as catchy for Bob? says, can we, but it's always been do the woo, hasn't it? So he, he should be safe. Yeah. okay, so it was a real email. And it's actually happening. Interesting. Yeah. It'd be interesting to watch it. Yeah. The power of Google still, right?

That power that they've got over us is pretty remarkable. yeah. I'd be kind of interested to know who the SEO experts were as well, just to know what the intuition there was. Right. We're gonna have to race through the next few items. I do apologize not only to the audience, but to the. People in the show as well.

First thing I want to say, a massive, congratulations to the fabulous team over at Beaver Builder, for getting to their 10 year, anniversary. I was a massive user, of Beaver Builder. I think the people who are behind the project are just absolutely fabulous there. I don't know, I just don't think they made any missteps in their, in their whole enterprise since the day it started until now.

Brilliant product. Congratulations. Spent quite a lot of time with Robbie, at Word Camp Asia. and yeah, just basically congratulations. So I dunno if any of you wanna echo that little shout out. If, if you do go for it. Echo. Echo. Nice. Just brilliant people. Brilliant. Brilliant people. Brilliant people.

Really foundational product. I know that at the beginning when Beaver Builder came out, there were a few that were endeavoring to do the same thing, but there, there was just something about it, which made it stand out for me. and I really, really did enjoy using it. Michelle, be anything or should I press on?

[01:15:08] Michelle Frechette: Press on. Okay. Congratulations for that. Yeah, I wanted to dwell on that a little, a little, but I kind of ran out of time. okay. Right. This one very quickly then. so I met Zach, who is the author of this article. Zach is from, gravity View, or Gravity Kit. I dunno if there was like a rename at some point.

[01:15:28] Nathan Wrigley: Exactly. Mm-Hmm. But it's the story of, of the last 10 years. of his thing as well. So, you know, beaver Builder, 10 years now, we've got Gravity View for 10 years, and it's about the fact that he just decided years and years and years ago that he was gonna start making plugins. So he came up with this idea of doing Gravity Kit, did all the hard work, launched it, and then he woke up in the next morning to find that.

I think he'd sold something like 1000, $200 worth of licenses. Yeah. The next day I woke up and immediately opened my phone. I'd made over $1,200 in sales, by the end of the first aid. Sold over $4,000 worth of licenses. I mean, that's just, there's gotta be a nice feeling, right? and then 10 years on, five and a half million dollars and okay, it's an eye watering amount of money, but just, this is the bit that I find fascinating.

It's a plugin for a plugin. There's a huge market in that. Yeah. Isn't that a miracle though, that gravity forms itself? It is. So like big, I guess that something that sits atop of it can generate what is a really healthy income, for that business. And and having met Zach, I was, it was very nice. We went out for a walk with a bunch of other people.

[01:16:45] Andrew Palmer: Well deserved isn't it as well. Have you ever used Gravity? Gravity Kit? Gravity? I don't use gravity form. I do. I do. So I can't say about Gravity View, no. Yeah, well, I'm, I'm not allowed to say, 'cause obviously Mark Westco is my best mate and he helped me with a problem with Bertha last week, but I am gonna say it so he can hate me for a while.

Gravity View, we're doing a job portal using Gravity View. It's amazing. It's amazing. So there you go. That's it. So well done Zach and team, because it's it's well worth it. And, but you're right. There's, if you talk about another form, Ws form, look at the additions that it's got. Look at the extensions that that form has to have to other things.

Zapier, you know, all this kind of things. So we, we need these plugin developers, these brilliant people out there to add on to things that haven't quite got it right or haven't got quite, got that facility, you know, to yeah, to connect to other things. You know, like a CFI mean, what a game changer. A CF was crazy.

Yeah. Built by one guy, made a few quid, sold it to WP Engine. The rest is history. Actually. He sold it to Brain. No, he didn't. He sold it to, delicious Brains who then sold to wp. Yeah, they sold it a little while later. Anyway, sorry for the, the unnecessary correction there, but, but it's technical nor.

[01:18:06] Birgit Olzem: But it's like also, imagine the plugins are sitting on top of WooCommerce. yeah. Right, right, right. Like, for, like market press, German market, it's, it's a common, extension for, for WooCommerce. we need to use, in, in Germany, to comply the, the, regulations for e-commerce. So, there is a need, but also there is always a risk, building upon a, a plugin, which is a, so, when sometimes a plugin isn't, necessary anymore.

so there's also every time a risk to, to build up on, on. Commercial plugin to extend a commercial plugin because someday it might be leaving the, the, the planet or gets discontinued or no, other updates. So in your business, is also crippling with that. So, it's always also risk. So. I think, I think you have that with everything in life though, Virgin and I, I absolutely get it.

[01:19:11] Andrew Palmer: You know, when something is deprecated, you know, there's a few plugins that are deprecated now. One of mine has gone, I've just decided not to have it on the, on the org anymore. But it's 'cause the support burden was too much for too little and all that kind of stuff. So it's now purely commercial, right.

You gotta pay. But the, I think, you know, even with a car, you know, I drive a, I've got a favorite car. It's been dis it got discontinued last year, so I can't get another one like it, you know, for next three years or something. In three years time, there won't be any of those available. and, and we get it, but the, the danger is, is that things will be put into WordPress from these plugins and this is where the data portability comes in.

So if we are gonna put stuff like dynamic content, dynamic fields, all that kind of stuff, then if we are using things like a CF and we're using pods or a and other, Field, you know, custom post type generator with fields or whatever. Then we've got to make sure that we can port that content from those plugins that we've been using into core.

And if we can't, and that's why data Portability is a conversation that we, we've got to com. We've got to com just absolutely have every single day, just like plugins deprecate, don't they? You know, you wanna move from a, people wanna move from Elementor to Divvy or divvy to Elementor or El Elementor to Gutenberg blocks, all that kind of stuff.

So that's where, that's where I think the data portability question is, IM, is important. And I think what the people that got hold of that, first of all were SEO plugins. So when you install SEO Press or Rank Math or Yost and you are using a another one. They will always import the data from that a another one and, and back and forth, you know?

Mm-Hmm. So that's the, I think that's the, the power of data portability is, is choice. Give increases your choice. I'm just gonna say a big congratulations to Zach, basically. Yeah. And I'm just gonna add, years ago when we founded Underrepresented in Tech, we were using gravity forms. Sorry, mark, I didn't know you yet, but, but Zach was so kind to gift us, a license for Gravity View at the time Gravity Kit now.

[01:21:25] Michelle Frechette: And so if you do search the database and underrepresented in tech, it's because of Zach's generosity too underrepresented in tech that you're able to do that. And it worked beautifully and I was able to understand how to use it as a non-developer and make sure that it, it works for people to be able not only to enter their information through the gravity form, but then to display it through Gravity Kit.

So thank you. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Perfect. Patricia says, not only deprecated, but also if the feature of the Add-on is added to the main plugin or a feature of the plugin to Core WP Core. Yeah. okay, we're gonna move on. Andrew. We don't have long for this one, I'm afraid. Just 'cause time is fast running out.

[01:22:00] Nathan Wrigley: We've got a few other things to get through, but I did want to just mention the fact that you'd created a YouTube video this week. and just tell us what it's about. Well, basically there's alt text and it's accessibility, and it's actually through conversation. Michelle and I haven't spoken to ages, for ages, but accessibility and, and, and, and all that kind of stuff.

[01:22:20] Andrew Palmer: Conversations with Amber and loads of people in the community, and I thought, why haven't we got alt text generation in Bertha yet? So we have, so Oh, right. Nice. So in for free, if you upload an image, it will, it will give, Bertha will give you a, an alt text for you if you, even if you bulk upload. So even, even if you upload four images, it will give you alternative text for all of those four images.

And it's really great descriptive text as well. But in the pro version, you can actually go into the media library and just choose five images at a time and ask it to write your alt text. So, and then it just adds it as the regular field that you can then amend. If it's, if it's something's gone, it just adds it into the alternative text window and everything.

So, you know, it's, it's pretty cool. So it's using like open AI to just like literally look at the image and see what's in there? Ah, not just, not just open ai. We're not, we're not. Totally reliant on open ai. Okay. It's just the way it is. We've, we've got a couple of LLMs out there, so it's, but also that is, but the, the fun thing, you haven't seen this, but it's alt kid ai.com.

It's a little fun. Project Birth has had a baby. And, shall I, is it safe? Can I do it? Yeah, yeah. It's safe. It's safe, it's safe. Alt alt alt kidd.com. no. alt kidd ai.com. ai.com. Just quickly. There you go. Right. Coming soon. Text Generator for Google Chrome and, and for WordPress as well. But it basically, it's just, so if you don't want, if you're using another chat thing and you don't want all of Bertha, you'll be able to put in your own open AI key into all kids ai.

And that will generate your, your, your alternative text, but also in Chrome as well, so, oh. So you can just sort of browse the front end of the website and kind of do it that way. Oh, neat. Okay. Okay. Right. So plug, no plugin required. Interesting. No plug required. But also, so Alt Kid is gonna be a WordPress plugin as well, so it's just gonna be a little, you know, little birth had a baby, you want your alt text, you can add it to WordPress and you can add it to Chrome.

So neat. Anyway, there you go. So the top level item from that was that, you can now get al Alt text for free. Yeah. In, in, in, and, for free. If you just upload an image, it will. Generate the alt text for you for free. Okay? But you know, you do one at a time. So we shout it out to Beaver Builder, a Gravity kit.

[01:24:51] Nathan Wrigley: Now, Bert Ray, last one promise, is to this, this is a project of, Dave Gray, who has been on this podcast a number of times. and I, I said that I'd mention it. I've lost my screens. It's called Site Owner Admin. And I'll just give you the very quick run that it does. One thing, well, maybe it does more, but, site owner admin is an indispensable plugin created for the purpose of managing the e the administrator email address for your WordPress site.

By replacing the email text with a dropdown list, with this essential plugin, you can ensure that this vital email is associated with an active user who possesses the necessary login credentials to effectively oversee and maintain your website. So thank you Dave, for that. sadly, I was gonna go into it in more detail, but we're fast running out of time, but you could check it out.

It's called our. WP plugins.com. That's Dave's website. And then if you look for site owner admin, you can find it right at the top there, the new one, amongst the list of all the other things, divvy and Clin. Did all the one that you took over from me? Yeah, yeah, indeed. Yeah. I'd forgotten that. I had forgotten that.

okay. Right. We're onto bigots content. Now. Bigot sent me a whole ton of stuff that, that she wanted to surface this week. I do apologize about the paucity of Time Bigot. that's my fault for Knox shepherding the conversation. But, tell us what it is that we're looking at over the range of things that we're about to show.

[01:26:21] Birgit Olzem: it's about, the initiative. I, initial idea is to overhaul our DIB statement on WordPress org. Currently, we don't have a real DIB statement, like the accessibility statement on WordPress org. And the DIB working group is currently, elaborating ways how we can overhaul this. And, on the, I was attending the cloud first and the cloud first hackathon.

and our project team, started to, work on the contributor handbook, which is also stalled since over two years now. It was started by GI, an initiative, but it's currently living only on, Google Docs. but it's not really, moving forward. And so the DIB working group, put it on the, as a goal to overhaul the contributor handbook and also providing a DIB statement and following up to that.

We are looking forward to find a way to add also d.md fire to every WordPress org repository, to get a batch for the chaos community. That is something, it's just an idea currently. We need to get feedback on that. but feedback is very welcome. Please, comment on the GitHub issue, with your, ideas on that or if you are interested into contributing to that.

So we need a lot of hands to work on that as well. Okay, so this is over on GitHub. As with everything, like I said, I will put this in the show notes, but if, if you go, maybe you can Google it, it's WordPress and then DEIB issue tracker. And the, the, the, the issue itself is overhaul the DE IB statement on wordpress.org or w.org.

[01:28:15] Nathan Wrigley: So you can find that. Okay. Thank you. Firstly, but there's a, there's more to come. let us go to this. This is fascinating. so this is a post, a tweet from Amber Hines and like just get your jaw ready 'cause it's about to hit the floor. Ireland is including up to 18 months jail time as a consequence of failing to meet the European Accessibility Act.

And if you thought that was an April fool, there's the, there's the page. There's the, the page on the Irish statute book, ie. Which I'm guessing is a legit website. Honestly, I am flabbergasted that this has happened, like pleasantly, right? That's all seems really good. Mm-Hmm. But, 18 months in jail now, I'm guessing bigot, they're not gonna be going after like, you know, the, the, the one person who's created a website for their crochet business or anything like that.

This, is this more geared, do you think, towards like the enterprise, like the likes of Yeah. Google or something? It's. Yeah, it's, depending on a certain, income, of your company. so, small business owners are not likely to get fined. and I guess, from my understanding it's more about, if you are telling on your website you will comply to the accessibility Act, but don't so that someone can, go to court with something like that.

[01:29:49] Birgit Olzem: And that is maybe, the, the gist of it, to, to, how that they can rely on that to, kind of punishment on the eye one hand. On the other hand, I would love that we have more ini incentivize, yeah. to, to encourage companies to watch over their, websites than to be more accessible often. Is it.

Some small portion, like where birth AI was a, automatic, a all text generation will come into handy, really handy, so to, to, make successful and accessible website, but it is much broader. So it's too much for, for this show to, to talk about. But, it was really important that we keep this on eye on.

Because many countries will follow this example. I guess it's kind of interesting. I guess it's, well, it's a bit of carrot and a bit of stick, isn't it? It's a bit of both, but but it also speaks to the fact that the legislators certainly in the, well, I'm gonna say eu, I'm guessing it'll roll out across the EU if it's being implemented in Ireland, but, that they're taking it seriously and, Atif says, jail time, this isn't the way forward.

[01:31:06] Nathan Wrigley: No. And I'm guessing it would take like quite a lot of wrongdoing, by major companies in order to actually serve prison time. But it is, it's an interesting carrot and stick. Right. Again, apologies for the amount of time we've got. Only a few minutes left, so I'm just gonna, I I need two seconds. Oh, you're gonna say go on.

[01:31:23] Andrew Palmer: It just goes back to the fact that I think that websites currently are over-engineered the less over-engineering that we have. Right. I think that's oxymoron the better for accessibility, right? Yeah. Yep. Thank you. okay. Right then we'll show this one, which beget wanted us to show. This is DEIB, in WordPress.

[01:31:44] Nathan Wrigley: It's WP dash DEIE b.org. are you just alerting us to, this particular article or is it the website in general? No, it's, it's, it's a, community hub for the DIB working group because as an overarching, group, a WHI group in WordPress, we don't have a place on make purpose org. So, we, I was looking for ways how we can, accelerate our resources, our materials, and currently we are just working on a GitHub repository and a Slack channel.

[01:32:20] Birgit Olzem: So, and, as I learned, that. There are some bureaucracy behind it to get an make site, like make slash db mm-Hmm. to get, acknowledged as an official make workers team. So we are currently working off grid, but also as a community project. And, this is, explaining what, what the group is doing, but also how you can get involved, et cetera.

[01:32:50] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. That's the main bit, isn't it? Join the b the DEIB working group. They have great call to action. There. Is there, has there been a, is there been a. An explanation of why make wordpress.com hasn't got a place for you, hasn't got a space rather than, rather Yeah. It's, based on the project leadership, they want to make sure that it's had had a more longevity, the working group has more longevity.

[01:33:17] Birgit Olzem: Like for instance, the sustainability team was working on a slack, and a small page, landing page, over a year before they got and acknowledged as an official team. So they also went this route by building a landing page, and continuing the meetings and so on, on the slack. okay. Chat. So yeah.

[01:33:42] Nathan Wrigley: Interesting. right. Okay. We have now officially overrun, so I'll just quickly, I'm just gonna have to pick a few quick ones. is there any bigot, is there any of the ones that you mentioned that you would like particularly to surface, given that the time is now so short? Apologies. Just the, the, similarity with the, scale consortium where, Matt, Mick on Twitter also mentioned, that they also need to build upon on an external side and brew it and, and get it cooked before it can get, into the, virtual org, ecosystem.

I, I desperately want you to come back on the show in a few weeks time being, and we'll do this, the, the, we, we won't leave it till the end, put it that way. We'll do this some, give it some proper time. 'cause I do apologize about the way that this has been handled at the end. I wish I'd got more time left over, but it, I mean, Matt's comment is, there is Matt's comment.

[01:34:40] Andrew Palmer: It's there, right there we go. Feel independent and when you feel it's fully cooked, we can move it onto org officially. I just don't want it bogged down in any bureaucracy, bureaucracy there while it's still getting formed. So that tells us. There's bureaucracy.org. Mm-Hmm. And it's, you gotta navigate that.

So, yeah. I mean, it's better to get a fully formed project. So I, I bless you Burgit, for doing what you're doing. Bless you. Just crazy. Just crazy that it's not on make do wordpress.com. But you know, when it's fully cooked it will be hopefully, I think we're gonna have to end it there 'cause I know that everybody's time is very precious and I don't wanna keep you longer than, than you've signed up for.

[01:35:23] Nathan Wrigley: So bigot, I will definitely desire that you come back on and we'll shove that towards the top of the show rather than hammering it all at the end in rapid succession. So that story is probably developing, over the days and weeks and months to come. So firstly, I'd like to thank my co-host, Michelle Fhe.

Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you. Also my pleasure to big it and thank you to Andrew for joining us today. Thank you. If you were watching, listening or snoozing your way through this, I don't know. thank you very much for anybody who made a comment. We had loads today. We had quite a lot more actually not on the screen than on the screen.

But appreciate your time, coming and joining us. We'll be back next week. We'll have a different panel, but it would be nice to see you at that point as well. Now, big it sadly, we have this slightly humiliating hand wave thing that we do at the end so that I can get a featured image. Would you mind and Andrew?

Yes. Look at that and everybody smile. There we go. We've managed it. as I said, we'll be back next week. Thank you so much for joining us this week. I really appreciate it. Take care. Stay safe. Have a good week. Bye-Bye for now.

[01:36:33] Andrew Palmer: Bye.