478 – Inside WordPress 7.1 – responsive styling, new blocks, media modal and behind-the-scenes changes

[00:00:20] Nathan Wrigley: Hello there, and welcome once again to the WP Builds podcast. You've reached episode number 478 entitled, inside WordPress 7.1, responsive styling, new blocks, media modal, and behind the scenes changes. It was published on Thursday, the 30th of July, 2026.

My name's Nathan Wrigley, and in a few moments time, I'm going to be joined by Birgit Pauli-Haack and Anne McCarthy so that we can have our conversation about WordPress 7.1. So stay tuned for that.

But before then, a few bits of housekeeping, if you like what we do at WP Builds, head to our subscribe page. wpbuilds.com/subscribe. Subscribe to our newsletter, follow us on the different socials that are mentioned there.

If you do subscribe to our newsletter, you're going to get two emails a week one when we publish this, the podcast episode that always comes out on a Thursday. But we also do our This Week in WordPress Show live. We do it on a Monday, and then we publish it on a Tuesday. And so you will get the email on a Tuesday.

But if you're fancy joining us live for that, head to wpbuilds.com/live, 2:00 PM uk time, pretty much every Monday, barring sickness or family holidays or something like that, and join in the comments. It certainly helps drive the show forward.

The other thing that I always mention is that if you are enjoying WP Builds and you'd like to help support the podcast, head to wpbuilds.com/advertise, or give me an email [email protected], and we'll get into a conversation about how the podcast, with its WordPress specific audience, can help you, your block, your plugin, your theme, your hosting environment, whatever it may be. wpbuilds.com/advertise to find out more.

Okay, what have we got for you today? Well, today we have one of our At The Core episodes. It's kind of settled into a nice routine. Where I'm joined by Anne McCarthy and Birgit Pauli-Haack, both of them Automatticians. Birgit Pauli-Haack does the Gutenberg Times and the Gutenberg Changelog podcast.

And also Anne is the 7.1 release lead. And as we're talking about 7.1, this is highly important. She's also a developer relations advocate at Auttomatic, in fact, they're both employed over at Auttomatic.

But today the conversation is very much about WordPress 7.1, what is coming up, what do we like, how it can be tested, how you can get involved, some surprising things that are not included, but also a boatload of things that are included.

I've tried to include all of the show notes that we mentioned, and there was quite a lot. So if you head to wpbuilds.com and search for episode number 478, scroll to the bottom and you will find a multitude of links there with all the different bits and pieces that we talk about.

Anyway, it's a nice episode, very much about WordPress Core itself, and I hope that you enjoy it.

Hello there. Welcome to the WP Builds podcast. We're coming around to another At the Core episode. We've done several of these. I'm gonna say, five or six or four or something like that.

And, I've been joined by Birgit Pauli-Haack and Anne McCarthy on several occasions. We've been joined by some other people as well, but today it's, it's Birgit and it's Anne McCarthy. And the reason it's called At the Core is because we are gonna spend the next 45 minutes or so just talking about what has coming...

Sorry, what is coming. Perhaps we'll delve a little bit into what has recently come in order to make what's coming possible. And the idea is to appraise, maybe the next few months of what you can expect in the WordPress space. So it touches very much on WordPress 7.1. just quick bios from both of you.

If people are listening to this and don't know who you are, maybe if we go to Birgit first.

[00:04:13] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Okay.

[00:04:13] Nathan Wrigley: do you just wanna tell us who you are and what you do and

[00:04:16] Birgit Pauli-Haack: My name is Birgit Pauli-Haack, and I'm a advocate at, Automattic for the WordPress open source projects, and I'm also publishing the publisher of the Gutenberg Times and the Gutenberg Changelog podcast. And the Gutenberg Times is the place where you find the source of truth within the next few couple of weeks for 7.1.

I've been digging into 7.1 quite a bit.

[00:04:43] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. we have our This Week in WordPress show and we more or less feature your stuff every single week. If we don't feature you directly, we certainly steal from you.

[00:04:53] Birgit Pauli-Haack: all free. All

[00:04:55] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I hope that's okay.

[00:04:56] Birgit Pauli-Haack: it's for

[00:04:57] Nathan Wrigley: Th- thank you

[00:04:58] Birgit Pauli-Haack: educating.

[00:04:59] Nathan Wrigley: for the great amount of work that you do. I will link in the show notes to all of those bits and pieces that,

[00:05:04] Birgit Pauli-Haack: you so

[00:05:04] Nathan Wrigley: that Birgit mentioned.

And,

so over to Anne.

[00:05:08] Anne McCarthy: I'm Anne McCarthy. I am an architecture and open source director at Automattic, that's just a fancy way of being, I'm a sponsored contributor to the project, and I hold a couple leadership positions internally at Automattic that helps bridge the gap between the community work that we do and the stuff we do at Automattic. I'm also the 7.1 release lead,

[00:05:26] Nathan Wrigley: Woohoo!

[00:05:26] Anne McCarthy: is weird and shy because I feel very shy saying that, but, it's a task I haven't done before and, I'm enjoying it and also stressed by it.

[00:05:36] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:05:37] Anne McCarthy: part of why I'm here.

[00:05:38] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I can imagine it is an awful lot of work and a- as, as is always the case with anybody who volunteers within the project, thank you very much for everything that you do. And,

[00:05:48] Birgit Pauli-Haack: must

[00:05:49] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, as-- Yeah, thank you, Birgit. As we're about to find out, 7.1 has a lot and, and so I hope you manage to get in a few hours' sleep over the next month or two.

But thank you so much. So there's our panel, if you like. These are the people that we're gonna talk about. So I'll just mention that we've got some-- we've got a Google Doc where we've c- where Anne and Birgit have cribbed a bunch of, links, and we'll go through them in the order in which they're in that, Google Doc.

And what I'll do is I'll copy and paste those links into the show notes. So if you go to wpbuilds.com, search for this episode, and in the preamble I'll tell you what episode number it is and so on, and you'll be able to find all the associated bits and pieces. There's probably about, oh, I don't know, 12 or 13 bits to go through.

Some of them need a bit more time than others. So we'll kick right off with you, Anne, over on make.wordpress.org, the, the roadmap to 7.1. basically I suppose you could summarize this as, "Here's what's coming. Here's why it's exciting." And a- as is always the case with Anne, there's a book. The short book, has been written.

You don't hold back. It's great.

[00:07:01] Anne McCarthy: No, I

[00:07:02] Nathan Wrigley: g- what we could do, is highlight, maybe if Birgit and Anne wanna just highlight their favorite features or something like that. But I'll lean into Anne first because it's your piece. tell us about what the best bits are in this

[00:07:17] Anne McCarthy: A lot of the roadmap to 7.1, I would also link to, and we can drop that in the show notes, the beta one post. So

[00:07:22] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah,

[00:07:23] Anne McCarthy: I always say it's like,

[00:07:23] Nathan Wrigley: okay

[00:07:24] Anne McCarthy: aiming for, and probably 60 to 70% of it will land. So don't get your heart too set on a certain feature because there's a lot that has to happen, the roadmap to actually getting into the release. on my end, gosh, it's hard to pick one thing, but, because I ran the Full Site Editing outreach program, the longest standing point of feedback was responsive styling.

[00:07:46] Nathan Wrigley: Oh

[00:07:47] Anne McCarthy: I wanna make it very clear styling, not full editing, but I actually did a podcast yesterday on one of the things that I think is really cool with this release.

there's a couple things, but one, if you zoom out and look at the last couple releases, you'll see the way features build on each other, and I always encourage people to do that and wanna shout that out. So for example, like notes, you could add notes to entire blocks. In this release, you'll be able to add them in line.

You'll be able to use rich text. You'll be able to have @ mentions and @ mention people. So in terms of seeing the way things build on top of each other, that's definitely something to shout out that I'm really excited about. Adam Silverstein did great work there, along with, some other contributors. and then the responsive styling, I think, and the pseudo state styling, of those in combination really are a big step forward for addressing some longstanding feedback. I think we'll get more feedback with this. if you add that in with the ability to, in 6.9, you could hide or show a block. then in 7.0, you could hide or show a block based on, viewport size. Now, in this release, you can do that along with responsive styling, along with using theme.json to customize the viewports, yourself.

So just a progression happening, and so I wanted to call out both of those as, as different, features. And then the last thing I'll say is, when Matt did the 7.0 product review call for the last release, one of the things he talked about that really stuck with me was I, when I upgrade, I want people to feel that they've upgraded, and how do they feel that experience?

and there's a lot of stuff there, whether it's like the on this day widget or the omnibar that follows you across the different editors, or these styling options or new blocks. there's just like a ton of

[00:09:22] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:09:22] Anne McCarthy: whenever you update, you'll feel, "Okay, I'm getting something new," which I think is really exciting.

Sorry, Birgit, if I just listed off way

[00:09:30] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Totally ca-

[00:09:31] Nathan Wrigley: N- no, and the, the curious thing is,

[00:09:33] Birgit Pauli-Haack: it,

[00:09:34] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, the curious thing is

[00:09:35] Anne McCarthy: am.

[00:09:36] Nathan Wrigley: you've only listed about

[00:09:37] Anne McCarthy: I know, sorry. I know.

[00:09:39] Nathan Wrigley: 2% of what's in the article. there's loads. But, I guess thank you for that firstly. and it's curious that some of the things that you want, I'm, imagining they're because you see the utility in them.

I've got a different, selection, which I'll do in a minute. But, let's go to Birgit, see what you enjoyed about this. yeah, leave a few. Yeah.

[00:09:58] Birgit Pauli-Haack: you,

[00:09:58] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah,

[00:09:58] Birgit Pauli-Haack: about 125 hours,

[00:10:00] Nathan Wrigley: that's right.

[00:10:03] Birgit Pauli-Haack: say, yeah, the, was, I think this is my seventh or eighth release that I'm covering things, in, in various positions, and Anne is the most communicative release lead

[00:10:15] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, yeah.

[00:10:16] Birgit Pauli-Haack: kudos to you.

[00:10:17] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah

[00:10:18] Birgit Pauli-Haack: a lot of work, but I think everybody knows what's going on.

The release coordinators, the designers, everybody knows what's going on and don't have to wait for information or come out with wrong information and have to re-circle back and redo the work. So and really kudos to Anne on that. I really love that.

so my favorite feature is the new, model for the image crop.

[00:10:44] Nathan Wrigley: Oh,

[00:10:44] Birgit Pauli-Haack: call

[00:10:45] Nathan Wrigley: that's my one.

[00:10:46] Birgit Pauli-Haack: but, oh, sorry. We're coming from the same history. Now

[00:10:50] Nathan Wrigley: That's great.

[00:10:51] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I can throw out

[00:10:52] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:53] Birgit Pauli-Haack: or the Gimp or something like that. I

[00:10:55] Nathan Wrigley: Yep.

[00:10:55] Birgit Pauli-Haack: inline.

[00:10:56] Nathan Wrigley: Yep

[00:10:57] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I, I also a few other things, so maybe I'm not taking it all away from you, which is just fabulous. Yeah. the notes men- Anne mentioned, also the viewpoint, customization, I want to...

It was just a side note that you said it, but I really want to point that out, that designers can now, the viewpoints, view- the break points

[00:11:24] Nathan Wrigley: Break points, yeah.

[00:11:26] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yeah. via theme.json. it has long been, in, in Gutenberg, so this is really cool. I like the new tabs block. Kudos to that. it's, really... it took a while. It was supposed to come into 7.0, but then I think the refactor that was happening and making it even closer to the, accessibility boards, what they think should be the standards for it, really helps with, adoption of that. and it's easy to use. and then, there's also...

What I also like is the, you now can have color background image kind of cover each other, so the image kind of in the gradient. Yeah. the, the gradient is really cool. That, I really love that. Yeah.

[00:12:22] Nathan Wrigley: That's nice. I can't believe you stole my thunder. Buried at the bottom was that whole media thing, and I thought nobody's gonna find that. Yeah, that's so great. basically I always end up on some sort of desktop app, needlessly on a desktop app, knowing that for years it's been possible for me to crop images on, in a browser.

now you can, and there's a whole load of like really useful... you can skew the image or set it to be a square or crop it and then grab it by the hand and move the crop up or, yeah, or flip it around or what have you. All of that available in a modal at the point when you're using it. So you don't need to go to do everything, stick it in the media library, then insert it.

You can use that editor right at the point where you are about to use it. And again, the whole collaborative feature, the fact that you can do it over multiple blocks or, sorry, in line within blocks and, I don't know, highlight a particular word or something like that just seems really great. And the other one, which I don't know if anybody else is gonna think this is really useful, the persistent admin bar.

I don't know why I... B- because I'm constantly... let's say for example, I'm in, I don't know, a page or a post or something, and I've, gone, let's say, full screen and I click the icon at the top left and I'm back and I, never quite know where I am. And then from there I click the other, the, the newly inserted, slightly smaller icon, and then that takes me back somewhere else.

And having the admin bar will just get me where I need to go, which is typically back to the list of posts or something like that. and so that for me will be really useful. So my, my two are really utilitarian, but they represent a way of shaving minutes and therefore hours each month out of my, workflows.

but I've got to say, we really have just skimmed the surface. the piece is called "Roadmap to 7.1." it was published on the 19th of June 2026 on the Make blog, so that will be linked to. And if there's nothing else to add to that, I guess we'll delve into some other bits. Is that all right? Are we okay?

[00:14:19] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I have one more thing

[00:14:20] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, please.

[00:14:21] Birgit Pauli-Haack: want.

[00:14:21] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:14:22] Birgit Pauli-Haack: icon pack was in, new in 7.0, but now, designers can add their own collections or plugin developers can now, add their own collection. There's a new API dive into, and that makes developers really happy, I think. Yeah.

[00:14:41] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:14:43] Anne McCarthy: have one

[00:14:43] Nathan Wrigley: Okay.

[00:14:44] Anne McCarthy: this is the worst. I know. I just, I al- I keep forgetting about this, and it's, something that is so foundational. Adam Silverstein has worked on client-side media for months. months. And it's, a lot of it is hyper-technical, borderline, you will know it's better because something won't happen.

will be more performant, which is amazing if you think about that at scale. if you save o- shave off seconds, like, that is tons of human time saved. if you... It's gonna make gr- or, work with more formats, so it has better support for more things. And it's just gonna be overall more reliable.

[00:15:21] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah

[00:15:21] Anne McCarthy: experience, I, I think all of us probably upload media, obviously. I mainly do photos. There is nothing more infuriating than, you're trying to just write a post, and then, something fails, or it takes a really long time, or it's hanging or whatever. And that kind of, silent, invisible wear and tear, he just has been, like, hammering on.

And I'm really excited that those upgrades are landing, for this release. And, I think it'll be something people will feel, but they won't really know, what... It's not

[00:15:48] Nathan Wrigley: Yet

[00:15:48] Anne McCarthy: visible, in-your-face thing. It's just gonna be like, "Oh, wow, that was

[00:15:51] Nathan Wrigley: as a, as a release lead, that, that's i- it's both good and bad 'cause y- nobody comes to celebrate the thing which they don't notice, but it's better. Is it really? Sh- how? It was a bit quicker? Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to kinda get excited about those. But you're right. And then there's a bunch of stuff Adam's been working on, which I think we'll get to a bit later.

Client side oh, hi, amazing stuff. image conversion and things like that in the background. Okay, so that was the first piece. And then we're gonna move to, a piece written on the 15th of July, which is all about, it's called "Help test WordPress 7.1." There isn't really a lot to say here except that, in order for this to go as smoothly as possible, the more eyeballs that land on everything to do with 7.1, the less, the less Anne will be awake and the more time she'll have to sleep.

"Help Anne sleep," that's what we should call this. "Help Anne s- Help Anne sleep." do you wanna just, either of you just run through what the schedule is there, or maybe there's a, I don't know, a, a, a clarion call or something particular that you've hit a roadblock with when this podcast is being recorded?

[00:17:01] Birgit Pauli-Haack: it's, it has been a tradition to actually really publish these, help test the next version. And I find it, in two places it's really a good thing to do is because first you get more eyeballs on the features, and there are really good instructions in there in how to get to that, and also what is supposed to be happening. H- the video is in there, videos are in there, so you, know a little bit more how, what's coming, but also direct instructions. You don't have to make a decision, "Okay, what should I test? I don't have a use case." So you get, the use case. And the second part is that it's the best way to figure out what's coming to 7.1.

[00:17:42] Nathan Wrigley: Great

[00:17:43] Birgit Pauli-Haack: you learn it right there by doing, and, you want to test it on your own site, it's really helpful to make sure that your sites are compatible or, yeah, what you can throw away because it's now coming into core. Yeah, that's the other thing. yeah. yeah, anytime you jump in during the beta release cycle, I think release, correct me if I'm wrong, but, release candidate one is something in August, first week in August.

[00:18:13] Anne McCarthy: 5th,

[00:18:14] Birgit Pauli-Haack: August is there.

[00:18:15] Nathan Wrigley: Grain. It's ingrained in you. That's g- It's in your head.

[00:18:19] Anne McCarthy: "I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure."

[00:18:20] Birgit Pauli-Haack: so it's about three weeks away, and that is the cutoff on things because it's also string freeze for the translators, and because there's so much in there, I think, I, yeah, everybody hopes that it kind of adheres to that.

another three weeks, from one we- we are recording this on July 21st.

when it's coming out, it's probably in a week or two.

[00:18:45] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that's right. we should be able to get it out certainly long before that deadline comes and goes. Yeah, that's great. I should say that I don't know how to pronounce this person's name, but, Ho- Huzaifa, I'll go with that. Huzaifa Al Mesbah, is the author of this particular post. And it's another novel.

and what has happened here is not only have they made the case for when the dates are and why it's a good idea to help, but then they've gone into a, a small book in what you could actually help with, how you can get yourself set up. So if, for example, you've never done this kind of thing before, maybe, you'll find some, great pleasure in doing it.

you might only spend an hour or 20 minutes or 10 hours, whatever it may be, but every little bit helps. So there's information on how to get started, literally how to set yourself up. But then a really detailed checklist of things, including videos, which it would be helpful to test and make sure that, what is desired is actually what you're able to replicate and so on and so forth.

So it, it's-- runs the gamut. It's literally every part of WordPress, I would say, So definitely go and have a look at that. And, Anne, we've excluded you from that, sorry.

[00:19:59] Anne McCarthy: No, I love it. This is like easier for me. I'm just like, yes, amen,

[00:20:02] Nathan Wrigley: Like that.

Yeah,

[00:20:04] Anne McCarthy: it just, it's so helpful to test this stuff,

[00:20:07] Nathan Wrigley: Yep

[00:20:07] Anne McCarthy: begin to tell anyone like how... It's if whatever we catch here saves s- like an unfathomable amount of time

like both in terms of doing point releases and just genuinely human time.

your friends using WordPress

[00:20:22] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:20:22] Anne McCarthy: run into these bugs.

[00:20:23] Nathan Wrigley: Yep

[00:20:24] Anne McCarthy: of those things that it is, know, if you zoom out and think of like what's an at scale action I can do today, like this is

[00:20:31] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, yeah. Literally that moment where you put the phone down and you've got 20 minutes around, this is the sort of thing you could usefully spend some time on. It broadly falls into five categories: collaboration, design and interface, media, dashboard, blocks. And then probably the most important bit after that is how to actually go ahead and report that stuff.

So right-- buried right at the bottom of the article is the way that you're gonna make that, knowledge available, to people who will make use of it. And, yeah. Okay

[00:21:00] Birgit Pauli-Haack: want to have a big impact contribution, this is it

[00:21:05] Nathan Wrigley: This is the way

[00:21:06] Birgit Pauli-Haack: the bugs or the mistakes or confusions or irritations, yeah, I have those too for millions of WordPress users. Yeah, and this I think it's one of the, except for putting code in there, I think one of the most, impactful, contributions you can make to a, a release

[00:21:28] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, so there we go. Go and check that. It'll be in the show notes once again. And then we're gonna move on to, Marin Atana- Atanasov? I'm not sure how to pronounce these names. I do apologize, but, they'll be linked correctly, in our show notes. So this is a piece of news, It's a thing which happened and then didn't happen.

It came, it was a mirage, and then it went away. And it's called the Classic Block stays in the inserter for WordPress 7.1. And it almost is a non-story, this, because the, the Classic Block was, out of nowhere, it just, it was decided that it would go away. And then almost, not out of nowhere, I think there was a bit of a backlash where people came with credible use cases to say, "You know what?

We own a hotel chain and we use it 65 times a day," or something like that, but this was the Classic Block. Do-- it's not classic themes. Don't think classic themes are going away. That's not what it is. This is a dedicated classic block which ships in, in the, the Gutenberg editor.

You can drop it in and then do classic things inside of your posts or pages. For reasons I don't quite know, it was decided to pull it. Within a week, I think, that was, U-turned on. And what was really nice about this, the, the person who wrote this, who was obviously in charge of this, realised... I, love it when people are so candid.

He says, "After discussing this with a number of people and gathering feedback from different places, it became clear that this, this approach had things largely backwards."

[00:22:57] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yeah,

[00:22:58] Nathan Wrigley: how nice is that? That's just like a full mea culpa for, "We-- I made a bad decision. Let's not do it." And so I don't know if you want to add anything to that.

There probably is something to add.

[00:23:08] Anne McCarthy: some context to

'cause I do think one of the things I've been trying to do with this release a bit differently is making sure... Every release things are chaotic, and every release you look back and you're like, "Why did we make this decision? Why did this happen?" And 7.0 got a little bit extra chaotic with the timeline delay, RTC, like all this sort of stuff. so with 7.1, and I really appreciate Marine writing that post saying very clearly, this is why, 'cause I think that is something lost a little bit of, very clear statement of this is why we're doing this, here's how we're gonna follow up. This is why it's being punted, or this is why this decision's being made, and having a lot of clarity, 'cause that just only helps all of us in the future.

I don't

the decisions that I made two or three years ago

[00:23:50] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah

[00:23:51] Anne McCarthy: And so yeah, this was something that Matt was involved with at l- too, along with the feedback from the community, along with all this sort of stuff. It was a conversation, Marine also had with Matt, where Matt was like, "Whoa, what's going on here?

There's a lot of use cases for this. How are we reacting to this?" and I like-- I want to call that out 'cause I think it is... I think people are always curious, like, where Matt is paying attention and, he pays attention to a lot of stuff, including this, and he provided really good direction with this, and came in and was like, I think whenever originally we were looking at that, change, the, the thinking was, "Oh, this will be a performance improvement. By removing this from the inserter, we'll

[00:24:28] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, okay.

[00:24:29] Anne McCarthy: out,"

this is so been so many years, people have had time, and then all these use cases came up. And then not only were there all these use cases, but it's like, why, is there such an uproar? this is backwards to think about this as, a performance improvement for just a subset of users. Why not understand why people are using it in the first place? And, what pathways people can naturally-- it'll naturally die off rather than, needing to push people.

And, like, how WordPress feels, how things are moved, when things feel reliable enough to move to. Like, all that stuff really matters, and so it was clear based on the backlash that this was not something that, was smart to move forward for with 7.1. And Marine wrote a great post and, a lot of decisions and pulled together a lot of different conversations, and I think made the right call. It was something that I was really, of how much he, got in there. And it seems like a, a detail, but it's not, right? this is at the root of a lot of WordPress community history, when it comes to Gutenberg and,

[00:25:27] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

Yeah

[00:25:29] Anne McCarthy: it's, really important that, wide open, when that happens,

[00:25:35] Nathan Wrigley: I think what's also curious is it's so easy to forget that if something has been a feature for a very long time, even if nobody's going on about it, there's probably a subset of users somewhere who are really leaning in on it. and so the, the background work ... now obviously the background work has been done, and it's pretty clear that some people have got a use case for it.

I think in the comments to the initial post where, it was mentioned that this was going away, I think there was quite a few comments. Some of them people literally describing the, the hundreds of times every month that they would, make use of this. Anyway, this is literally then a case of there's nothing to see here because it's like we rewound the clock.

what was promised to go away is not going away. It is exactly, as it was, eight months ago or whatever it may be. So anyway, that

[00:26:26] Birgit Pauli-Haack: years ago

[00:26:27] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Or eight years. Indeed. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. so that's that piece. Again, linked to in the show notes, but for the record, it's called the Classic Block stays in the inserter for WordPress 7.1.

It's on the make.wordpress.org blog. Okay, so let's get onto some navigation stuff. This one, Ashar Fuadi. Apologies, every time I say a name, I'm going to apologize. this is called, again, on the Make blog, this is called Consistent navigation in WordPress 7.1 with persistent toolbar. And this is the bit that I was talking about e- earlier, one of my favorite things.

I am curious as to why this has crept in. Is there just a sense of, why not have it in? Or is this a bit of backpedaling and we're not quite sure that the ... I'm gonna r- you do air quotes, "the new UI" for things like site editing, it- it's not quite something that people have dropped into with familiarity, so having that familiar interface and options to get back out to the dashboard and things.

But this is basically the, the admin bar that you're familiar with. R- the black bar running across the top of the screen. That is gonna be in all the places by the sounds of it. So whoever wants to take this

[00:27:38] Anne McCarthy: I can speak to this a

bit first, and

[00:27:40] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Piste

[00:27:40] Anne McCarthy: can hand it to you. so this also came from Matt, and is something that he-- I'm pretty sure there's a whole clip of it in 7.0, the product review, where he's like, "We should have that everywhere." And a lot of it comes from user, just watching users. have seen users land in the site editor and be like, "Oh God, how do I get

[00:27:59] Nathan Wrigley: Where? Yeah, right,

[00:28:01] Anne McCarthy: that has been happening for a while, and there was, we spent a lot of time on like the W menu, and made-- there's designs that show it dropping down, and we had all these like explorations, and, I think eventually Matt was just like, "Why not just use the upper bar we already have and have it exposed everywhere?"

we need to have way-finding. We need to have consistency. These interfaces look different. a lot, I could go deep 'cause I've watched a lot of these clips in

for 7.1, like thinking about okay, what's really important to land and all that sort of stuff, and getting on the same page with him. and that was one of them. And I think it's a really-- At first it was jarring to me. I was like, "Oh my God." Like design-wise, I was like, "Ugh." And then now I'm like, yeah, I can see how this is really good way-finding and, I love watching my partner use WordPress, and I can see how it like helps. and so I'm really excited to see how that lands.

And the, the current iteration also changes some minor things, in the toolbar as well. And so both the command palette, has like recently used and suggested things, whenever you click on that. And it also, the user profile, the avatar

circle,

[00:29:04] Nathan Wrigley: Yep.

[00:29:04] Anne McCarthy: help distinguish it. And so

[00:29:05] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah

[00:29:06] Anne McCarthy: just a little bit, it's like the intent was to land it across things, but don't wildly change the design.

Some decisions were made to scope back and not update icons and stuff. So it should be familiar. it shouldn't look drastically different.

[00:29:17] Nathan Wrigley: No, it looks really familiar. And i- in a way, it's ki- that admin bar is part of the WordPress branding. You know the minute you look at a screen, oh, they're in WordPress. You don't really need to see anything apart from that. And, but the way it's been done is really interesting because it alm- it feels you know the little camera notch on an iPhone or the ca- the camera notch on, a Mac or something?

It feels a little bit along those lines in that it's not like the admin bar is by itself. It looks like the new UI, th- there's a bit m- there's a little bit of extra blackness added. None of this is gonna make sense on audio, I apologize. But essentially, the, old UI and the new UI kind of bleed into each other a little bit.

There's this extra little bit of blackness which, I don't know, makes it me- feel more like an app for some reason. I don't... I can't really put it into words, but it's not quite like the old system, although it is quite a lot like the old system. But anyway, Birgit, if you've got anything to add, now's the time.

[00:30:17] Birgit Pauli-Haack: this post, actually shows the before and after, so

[00:30:21] Nathan Wrigley: that's right. Yeah. Yeah

[00:30:23] Birgit Pauli-Haack: desi- so you see, okay, oh, this was there before, but now this is new kind of, yeah,

for your own, where do I find thing, things now. and I like that it's now really for all the block editors because that, it disappeared on us. other than that, it has also some, If you prefer not to show it, there's also code in there

to,

remove it. so it's a nice little piece to talk about that particular feature. I also like that the command palette is now in there, and we could talk about the command palette as well if you want

[00:31:05] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, go for it. Why not? Yeah, sure

[00:31:07] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I really... It has now, an additional, okay, recently used commands, from, others. It has a, a, a suggestion what, if you start typing, what you could use so you don't have to know the command. And you just see, oh, I wanna add something, but do I wanna add a post or how do you call it? even, in- including the custom post type. it's so much nicer now to use, and, Control + K activates it, and the little shortcut is also in the toolbar so you don't have to remember it. So it's, it's a nice, great feature

[00:31:44] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

you're never gonna end up clicking on that oversized W logo and kn- not know where you're gonna go. You're always gonna... And, genuinely it feels more like an app. I don't even know what that means,

just feels like some modern piece of SaaS software that you would be using, which is hard to encapsulate.

But go and have a look at the piece again. Okay, we're on a clip now. So we're back to Anne. Anne wrote a piece on the 3rd of June, entitled Announcing a Collaborative Editing Outreach Effort for 7.1. This, is off the back of the punt of collaborative editing into 7.0 due to land at WordCamp Asia kind of time.

It was pulled and I think really... Is th- is this largely directed at people who have got like big install bases like hosting companies and things like that? Or is this just, users like me who've got a s- a handful of sites? But you want help to figure out where this works and where there's blocks, right?

[00:32:44] Anne McCarthy: Yeah, it's trying to do a lot.

[00:32:45] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, okay.

[00:32:47] Anne McCarthy: a great question. it is for, if hosts wanna reach out and find users who can use it on their platform, that's awesome. That is definitely something, Justin, and I have talked about. it's also for everyday people. So similar to the... The reason this came to mind is in light of 7.0, one of the conversations I had with Matt was, know, what can we learn from this?

Like wh- punting RTC, why wasn't it ready? RTC, real-time collaboration, sorry. And the conversation, he basically was like, "We need to find similar to the outreach program for the site editor, like where are the like rabid users who are like all over this, who are just gonna be giving feedback, who are willing to try new things?

Like, how can we get closer to them?" my brain just was like, "I think we should do an outreach program." I think that is collaborative features, and one of the things that gets very philosophical, and I'll try and keep this short, features require different kinds of testing. You cannot just have someone go off by themselves and test it in the same way.

You can, but you're probably gonna miss things in terms of workflow or enhancements or whatever. So it's like, how can we get groups of people who have a vested interest in this feature, who can help test it and be right next to the developers, to help improve it? And

goal was like, find those users. after 7.0, there became this of philosophical pullback of okay, maybe rather than trying to get a default option available for all WordPress sites, what would it look like if WordPress provided the primitives, the basics, and then like hosts and plugins can bring their own plumbing transport server to make it work. and that's where kinda 7.1 the decision-making was left, and to a point where I basically was like, "This is not ready." I don't feel comfortable as the release lead going forward with this. confirmation from Matthias and Matt that they were on board with me punting, and decided to punt after aligning with them. but this outreach program remains, and we actually have someone from bookriot, .com, and they do some-- actually signed up for one of their newsletters 'cause they have a queer, book newsletter, which is really cool. and they were like, "Oh my God, how can we are desperate to use this." "Please, can we set this up?

Talk me through it." I wanna seat more people in there because this is going to be something, I think, as we move forward with phase three, we need more of those, folks involved because it's not just, does it work like Google Docs? Because I think years ago, I did phase three user research with about I think it was like 25 different organizations of varying sizes and teams, and is so different to be working in a Google Doc in isolation than sitting into IP admin with the Publish button staring you in the face. psychologically, it's just totally different. You

[00:35:22] Nathan Wrigley: Huh,

[00:35:23] Anne McCarthy: especially when you're... I have, I, I wrote a blog. Anyway, I am

[00:35:26] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:35:27] Anne McCarthy: with thinking about this stuff 'cause it's like such a different head space.

[00:35:29] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah

[00:35:29] Anne McCarthy: And I would talk to people about that. They're like, "Oh my gosh, we're gonna have to be really careful with permissions and all this sort of stuff 'cause like we don't want people accidentally publishing something."

'Cause I talked to one group, they can get sued. If they publish the wrong thing, they're c- they could be sued. And not only could they be sued, they need to figure out who wrote that one thing and why, and who reviewed it, and they

[00:35:46] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Yeah

[00:35:47] Anne McCarthy: do you wrap your head around that? Because

[00:35:50] Nathan Wrigley: Oh

[00:35:50] Anne McCarthy: for a lot of these organisations, WordPress is the last place that they post. So how do you bring people in? It's how do you get people in an elevator the first time? they have the elevator person who like helps them. They don't really need to be in there, but that was one of the things they did to make people feel safe getting in this metal machine. It's the same thing as like Uber and Lyft. how do you get people into a stranger's car? How do you get people on Airbnb into someone else's house? Like what are those steps? And so I'm really curious to zoom it all back. This outreach program I think can be, is gonna be really pivotal. Whether we are just providing the primitives in WordPress, like what should those primitives be? Should it change the publish thing? Should there be certain workflows that work with it? Like what are the bells and whistles that we need to add so that they get in the elevator

[00:36:29] Nathan Wrigley: That is so interesting. I've never thought about the scariness of being in an interface with a publish button. But you're right. I can imagine topics which are, very, how to describe it. if you publish the wrong word in the wrong sentence, you're in real trouble.

And the fact is, if it's in a Google Doc, you have to deliberately copy-paste, do the bit of proofreading over there. It can never go wrong. this it can. Somebody accidentally hits the publish button and for 12 minutes the article is live. Yeah, Okay.

[00:36:58] Anne McCarthy: it's

[00:36:58] Nathan Wrigley: Okay

[00:36:59] Anne McCarthy: or if I'm sitting in WordPress.org News about to... I'm working, I had to work on the day one post. It's terrifying. Like, when you're at that scale and you know it's just instantly gonna go out to that many people, it's just a completely different

[00:37:09] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:37:10] Anne McCarthy: and

[00:37:10] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah

[00:37:12] Anne McCarthy: I, really want. I think the ideal use case is probably newsrooms, small to medium. I think the really large newsrooms will be hard to wrangle feedback from, but we need it, and WordPress VIP has a lot of that.

[00:37:24] Nathan Wrigley: Okay

[00:37:25] Anne McCarthy: aim, my ideal are those, smaller use cases, 'cause that's the majority of people, right?

[00:37:30] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah

[00:37:31] Anne McCarthy: publishing with one to four, five people.

[00:37:33] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Yeah. No, that's fascinating. So there's a collaborative-editing-outreach, Slack channel. It's all linked in the post, which is a much, much shorter read, so you can go and check that out. And it was called Announcing a Collaborative Editing Effort for 7.1 beta. Anything to add or should we move on?

[00:37:54] Birgit Pauli-Haack: no, but I would like to dive into, I don't have anything to add. I just have another question. I

there's a whole of hosting problems around it. are hosting companies part of it or are you getting, testing from them? because there's a lot of, th- they need to actually opt in that, repres- yeah, they need to put their service together.

So what are you hearing from them?

[00:38:23] Anne McCarthy: Yeah, so that's one of the things. If we don't provide a default option, the host part of this becomes less complex, in terms of like we don't necessarily need a new database table. We don't necessarily need to figure out the exact, it just becomes less complex at the end of the day. And so we've gotten feedback during the 7.0 cycle if we were to go that default direction. but at this point, a lot of feedback from hosts. And I think when the time comes, that is part of what this group will organize. That's part of why I brought in Justin and Amy is when we reach a, solution, of where, how we want to move forward, we'll bring folks in.

[00:39:04] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So next up, a little bit technical. I don't know how much there is to say about this. It's the, it's the React piece. So we're going from, React 18 to React 19. In all honesty, this is a bit above my pay grade, but, I'm guessing that in the background somewhere, the Gutenberg project and so on, this is a profound change.

I don't know how profound it is, but, maybe Birgit, over to you

[00:39:29] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Sure. Yeah, is the underlying framework of, all the JavaScript that is in the block editor. And, React 18 is relative, I think three or four years old. And, React has moved on to React 19, but, the Gutenberg project hasn't, updated the framework yet, and wanted to go that route.

But there were some inconsistencies and some, additional work to be, it was announced that it will be in Gutenberg, in one of the Gutenberg releases, and it would come to WordPress, but it's not yet ready because it has some backwards compatibility issues that really need to be ironed out.

And, that's one of the things that WordPress always struggles with is when we base on something and then change things, the backwards compatibility is really important. that's why the classic block is in there, why the classic themes are still in there, and that kind of keeps WordPress really moving forward. Yeah, because the old things, the old stuff still works, and the new stuff you can opt in. for React, it needs a little bit more, in the oven, I would

[00:40:41] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, So you can find out about the timeline and the any necessary sort of removal of APIs and things like that. That's all mentioned in this post with some sort of technical code and things like that as well. But, anything from you, Anne, on that or should we move on? I don't know. where you're having to make hard decisions and it's like you got to take a half step forward, get people aware of it, and then make a decision about whether it's ready. And, amazing to me how good of stewards, everyone on the project is when it comes to that.

Yeah.

[00:41:09] Anne McCarthy: these are hard decisions.

[00:41:10] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. okay, so dear listener, did you know that whenever you're using WordPress, you are in fact using iframes? I, I think most people probably don't know, I would've imagined. But, in order to, provide a boundary between, let's say, admin, like a theme style and the admin styling and things like that, we've got the separation.

So things like the block editor or blocks, individual blocks, are using iframes in order to provide that layer of isolation. But, now it appears that iframes are gonna be in different, more different places. So there's a few pieces that I'm gonna link to, but I'll focus primarily on the one which, is on the Gutenberg time.

So G- Birgit penned, I would imagine. it's called the post edit... Was it not you? Was it you?

[00:42:01] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Ryan Welcher

[00:42:01] Nathan Wrigley: Ah, okay. Thank you. "The post editor is going full iframe: what block developers need to know before WordPress 7.1." So it's, on your territory, so I'll, hand it to you, Birgit, again, if that's all right.

[00:42:13] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Well, the only, so all the block editor that are there, site editor, template editor, widget editor, whatever editor, pattern editor, they all are in iframes in the admin section. Only the post edi- editor is not, because that's the oldest one, and that was actually based on an admin settings page. But the, the site editor is in WordPress since 2020.

all the blocks, the blocks that have been older since the beginning, sometimes, some of the developers had to do different things so they fit into the admin, holds now the block editor back because, what the iframe does is actually that the editing looks like the front end

particular

And if you are not in the iframe, you cannot guarantee that as a theme developer or a plugin developer. So the, the blocks, API has moved forward. And, if it, if the block works in the site editor, like a template editor or something like that, you won't have a problem with the post editor. So that's the overall thinking if you want to test it as a,

[00:43:31] Nathan Wrigley: Right

[00:43:32] Birgit Pauli-Haack: person. so even if it, the block JSON, that's the technical thing, there's a version, property that says version three, that is iframe capable, version one and two maybe not.

[00:43:46] Nathan Wrigley: Okay

[00:43:47] Birgit Pauli-Haack: in that post, Ryan put together, a, to identify the problems in older blocks. If you're a developer, like, for, custom blocks, like, or block collection, then you can test it quite a bit, and you get the how to fix that, as well.

That, so that's a really important post for that. this is also coming along for five years

[00:44:18] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, There's a post there from 2021, I think from Amy.

[00:44:23] Birgit Pauli-Haack: yeah,

[00:44:23] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. No, Ella

[00:44:25] Birgit Pauli-Haack: it has nothing to do with classic, it has nothing to do with classic themes. It's the block editor, and that kind of needs to go. and it's really good to have a consistent, we're talking about consistent interfaces, yeah. you cannot have a block behaving differently in each of the different editors. So

[00:44:44] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:44:45] Birgit Pauli-Haack: the short of it.

[00:44:46] Nathan Wrigley: It's curious because e- everywhere else online we're being told, iframes, not so sure. That seems like old hat, It's odd, old technology you're developing with there. But, but in this case, that isolation it provides, what inside the block editor will not be tampered with by any, I don't know, CSS from somewhere else, which I am sure, dear listener, you've had to deal with.

"Why does it look like that there, and then on the front why... Okay, where did that padding come from?" That kind of thing. Hopefully this will like... it will. it literally is a walled garden. unless you've gone and done something extremely interesting, you, you should be isolated from that problem going forward.

So there's about three or four different articles which I will bind to this one. but we, probably won't delve into those. But you're quite right. The, the piece goes back to 2021 which is pretty cool. Yeah

[00:45:42] Birgit Pauli-Haack: the first one is the, the link to the Gutenberg Times, so

latest one. And then the other two

[00:45:49] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah

[00:45:49] Birgit Pauli-Haack: from November 25 and February 26, and then the last one is

[00:45:54] Nathan Wrigley: June. June 21. yeah. So I'll, put those as children of your article, and then hopefully everybody can see what's going on. we've got another call for testing. important area here, responsive styling. I think it's fair to say that responsive styling has been talked about, moaned about, the lack of has been...

it's been a thing. And we're now at the point where a lot of the dominoes are now falling. A lot of the things that you wished to be able to do inside the block editor in terms of, I wanna test it on mobile or do this thing on desktop and this thing on mobile. All of that is coming.

The UI is there. It looks pretty cool, but it needs to be tested. There is a, a link, to a playground where you can have a go. But, whoever dropped this one in, do you wanna just say about that, or are you happy for me to just leave it like that?

[00:46:44] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Well, I'm just happy to leave it like

[00:46:46] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it is what it is. Yeah

[00:46:48] Birgit Pauli-Haack: copy pasted all the call for testings, but I

map it up with the help test 7.1 that was

[00:46:55] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:46:56] Birgit Pauli-Haack: post.

[00:46:56] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:46:57] Birgit Pauli-Haack: yeah, I'll do a little work and poke around and try and put them in some kind of order. But yeah, basically this, is the thing that a lot of pe- a lot of people who casually use, WordPress, and you don't really wanna hack the CSS for ages, this is gonna be an absolute dream come true and just testing it.

Yeah. and it's a nice UI as well. you click buttons, the s- the screen shrinks. You can then further shrink it and drag it and do what you like and, I don't know, say from tablet b- and beyond. Tablet down to mobile, do this. and it all works. and then here we are, Birgit. It's the... We're onto the third to last, the media editor mo- modal.

[00:47:37] Nathan Wrigley: I think we've probably done this one already, but there's a video. You can go and see why it's so profoundly cool. if you use images in any way, shape, or form, it's just... It... This is where it should be. This is literally where that editing interface should be, right at the point where you drop it in.

You can now edit it and then pop it where you want. There's about four or five videos, three or four videos. Oh, no, there wasn't on this page. There's one video, so apologies. it's called "Media Editor Modal Call for Testing," and it shows you what you can do, and it's blooming good, basically. anything on that?

I think we did that. Did we? Yeah, okay.

[00:48:16] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yeah

[00:48:16] Nathan Wrigley: All right, so we've got a couple more call for testings. Th- this is gonna be called the call for testing

[00:48:18] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yeah

[00:48:20] Nathan Wrigley: episode, and I know Anne is in a rush, so she's got to go in a couple of minutes.

[00:48:23] Anne McCarthy: Yeah, skip the Unicode 'cause that

[00:48:25] Nathan Wrigley: y- yeah, skip. Yeah, 'cause I, I didn't even know that we needed that, but there you go.

I wanna put some quirky characters in my email address. so anyway, not that. call for testing. This is the client side, media processing that I was talking about. So for example, if you drop a, I don't know why Apple use it, but HEIC image, which is quirky to the iPhone and the Apple ecosystem.

If you want that to appear on a website, you probably want it as something a bit more modern like a WebP or what have you. Your browser can do all of that for you, and wouldn't it be nice if WordPress did all of that for you at the point of zero friction when you throw it into the block editor? Guess what?

It does.

[00:49:04] Birgit Pauli-Haack: It works

[00:49:05] Nathan Wrigley: it's great. It's, yeah, it's really great. Again, this is one of those things that you just expect it, right? Oh, you drop... yeah, it did it." Great. How did it do it? I don't care. It just did it. Great. Move on. But, Adam would like it to be tested. in order to save the environment a little bit, all of this work can be handled on the client side instead of it being handled by some server somewhere.

the browser will handle the majority of this stuff. He's an ex-Googler. He knows his stuff when it comes to this and, and he's got a, a round of testing for exactly that, so converting one thing from another thing and what have you. I... Is there anything else to say? No? Okay.

[00:49:43] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I, I don't think we need to go through the rest of it. we

[00:49:46] Nathan Wrigley: No. Okay. Oh yeah, 'cause the desi- 'cause the design system theming I didn't understand anyway.

[00:49:51] Birgit Pauli-Haack: right. And it,

a, it's not a lot coming in, into 7.1 and, yeah. there you go. There you go

a moment to talk about the security release?

[00:50:03] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah

[00:50:04] Anne McCarthy: the security release, I can stay for at least like two more minutes,

[00:50:07] Nathan Wrigley: Go for it. You, you do. You do that then in that case if you want to take that on. Or is it... Yeah

[00:50:12] Anne McCarthy: the security release went out last Friday for WordPress 7.0.2. It also, the fixes went into beta two for WordPress 7.1, so you'll see a beta three this week, which will feel a little off cycle.

[00:50:24] Nathan Wrigley: Right

[00:50:24] Anne McCarthy: I just wanna shout out, tons of people had to come together, and Matt wrote a great post on ma.tt about it, and it's just amazing when responsible disclosure happens, and, all the different people working to protect the open internet against a rise in security issues, especially with AI. that is one of the things that is definitely coming up. and, it's pretty amazing to see even a glimpse of some of the behind the scenes, of how all that comes together, and it's a huge group effort, a lot of people working long hours, to protect WordPress, and to do so in a way that helps provide defense going forward. So

[00:51:01] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah

[00:51:02] Anne McCarthy: shout out to the folks who worked on that, and please upgrade.

things, this is a very serious security issue.

do a beta two post about 7.1 was 'cause I did not wanna distract from this release at

[00:51:14] Nathan Wrigley: yeah

[00:51:15] Anne McCarthy: this, the focus needs to be on this, and text your loved ones. I texted my dad. I was like, "Hey,

[00:51:20] Birgit Pauli-Haack: update. Yeah.

[00:51:21] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Click the button, Dad. yeah,

[00:51:23] Anne McCarthy: I was

[00:51:24] Nathan Wrigley: that's right. Yeah.

[00:51:25] Anne McCarthy: I'm

[00:51:25] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Don't get scared.

[00:51:26] Anne McCarthy: said,

[00:51:26] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah, this is one to do. this is

I found a cur- few curious things. I'll be very quick. The first thing was how unusual it is to get a core, a, a problem in core of this scale and of this urgency. it's so infrequent, to the point where I got email.

Wow, you don't see that very much, that kind of thing. Second thing is I have everything, on auto-update, and I went in and everything had auto-updated before I even tried to update anything just to check, so that was really cool. And like you said, amazing that people come together, and I fear that with the rise of AI, we are gonna have to come together more and more frequently for things like this, sadly.

Birgit, anything before Anne has to run?

[00:52:10] Birgit Pauli-Haack: said. put by both of you

[00:52:12] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, thank you. Okay, in that case, we will knock that one on the head. Anne's got to leg it to a meeting, so I will just say thank you very much for joining us on At The Core one more time. maybe I'll see you both in Phoenix in a few weeks time if you're gonna be there.

Yay. Yeah.

[00:52:28] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Thank you for having,

[00:52:29] Anne McCarthy: finally.

[00:52:31] Nathan Wrigley: you so much, Birgit. Thank you so much, Anne. We will see you again soon. Cheers.

[00:52:34] Birgit Pauli-Haack: yeah.

[00:52:35] Nathan Wrigley: Bye-bye.

[00:52:35] Birgit Pauli-Haack: having us.

[00:52:36] Nathan Wrigley: You're very welcome.

[00:52:38] Birgit Pauli-Haack: in Phoenix, but yeah.

[00:52:39] Nathan Wrigley: Oh,

[00:52:39] Birgit Pauli-Haack: No.

[00:52:40] Anne McCarthy: cheers you.

[00:52:41] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, I'm gonna get a violin sound now and put it in. That's right, yeah.

[00:52:46] Anne McCarthy: Aw, all.

[00:52:47] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. That's nearly done. Just before I go, a big thank you to Birgit Pauli-Haack and to Anne McCarthy for joining us. If you've got any commentary about that, head over to wpbuilds.com, search for episode 478. Leave us a comment there.

If you would like to subscribe to the podcast or follow us in any way, go to wpbuilds.com/subscribe. And if you want to join us, 2:00 PM uk time every Monday for the This Week in WordPress show, wpbuilds.com/live. And wpbuild.com/advertise if you'd like to get your product or service out in front of our WordPress specific audience.

Okay. It's time for me to roll in the cheesy music. Can you hear, it just about? There it is. Have a good week. You stay safe. Bye-bye for now.