This Week in WordPress #334

[00:00:04] Nathan Wrigley: It is time for This Week in WordPress, episode number 334 entitled The Mother of All Futons. It was recorded on Monday, the 19th of May, 2025. My name's Nathan Wrigley, and today I'm joined by Remkus de Vries, by Tim Nash and by Corey Maass.

What do we talk about? we spend a huge amount of the episode talking about speed optimization. Because Remkus has got an article about that, and the conversation really does get derailed.

We also spend a lot of time towards the end talking about AI, and the different ways that we as WordPress users are using that.

But we also talk about the fact that the WordPress Media Corps has come to an end.

The fact that hosting.com is the new name for A2, plus many more other hosting companies.

WordPress events happening, WordCamp Europe is about to happen. WordCamp US hopefully will happen, we talk about that. And there's another alternative event happening around WordCamp Europe, which you can attend as well. Although I think the tickets may well have sold out.

There's a new plugin in the WordPress space to help you organize your media library, particularly around videos. And there's a new cart plugin as well, which will bind on to your WooCommerce store and add a sidebar to hopefully upsell your bits and pieces.

So that's what we've got for you this week, and it's all coming up next on This Week in WordPress.

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Hello there. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever it may be in the part of the world where you are. It is the 334th episode of this week in WordPress, which is quite a lot. And, and I'm, I just keep droning on about WordPress each and every week. And, and luckily I don't do it alone.

I'm joined by three other people so that we can all drone on about WordPress together. I'm very pleased to have them. Normally I'm in the top corner, so all of this is gonna go wrong. I've got my little fingers figured out for where everybody is. Okay, let's go round the houses. Was my Okay, there's Remkus.

Hello Remkus. How you doing?

[00:03:38] Remkus de Vries: Hello, Nathan. I'm fine. How are you?

[00:03:40] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, good. Remkus. Remkus is joining us from the Netherlands. I'm gonna read his biography if I have one. Let me just scroll down. Here we go. Mku DRE is a WordPress performance specialist focused on speed, security, and scalability. As co-founder of sca that was not lost on me, as co-founder of Scan, he helps site owners stay ahead of performance and security issues.

Kus also runs within WordPress, a newsletter and podcast for those passionate about building better WordPress sites and shares his insights on YouTube. Drop us the URL Roku. What's the best place to find you? remk.us. Okay. Or scan fully.com, which is obviously written on the screen beneath him. Yeah, RA US is like a Lincoln bio type thing.

Oh, okay. Oh, you have one of those. That's quite nice. Anyway, there's Mku. Thanks for joining us Mku. Appreciate it. This, I'm gonna go for Tim 'cause that's easy. He's above my head. Hello Tim.

[00:04:36] Tim Nash: How are you doing? Hello?

[00:04:38] Nathan Wrigley: I am, I don't have a, I'm, gonna refresh and hope that there's something there.

I dunno if there will be. No, I don't have a biography, so I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna hand it over to Tim. It says TBD, so Tim

[00:04:51] Tim Nash: Jo, introduce yourself. I'm trying to create something on the fly that can rhyme with TBD. no. My name's Tim Nash. I'm a WordPress security consultant who normally comes and puts on the city bios.

I was pretty sure I did add a bio today, but apparently, like so many things in life, I.

[00:05:08] Nathan Wrigley: It's okay. It probably got overwritten. This is, this podcast A plus app that we use is, something that I had built many, years ago and it still doesn't have any sort of Ajay stuff in it. So if somebody, if one of the other two guests logged in and clicked save, it would've just overwritten anything that you, that you put in there.

So apologies for that if your bio was there. Anyway, there's Tim Nash and I'm going, oh, yep. There we go. Got it. I can't quite get the angle right though. There we go. Hopefully everybody's joining. There he is. Corey Maass. Hello, Corey,

[00:05:42] Corey Maass: are you on mute? My six Do my six word intro. Okay, here we go. Word.

Here we go.

[00:05:46] Nathan Wrigley: Corey. Corey, Maass, founder and creator of O-M-G-I-M-G, the WordPress plugin, WordPress freelance developer, WordPress product. Organizer is that's the law. Yeah. But, he does

[00:05:57] Corey Maass: nothing with WordPress. Ironically.

[00:05:59] Nathan Wrigley: He does, nothing with WordPress. You heard it here first. bit of housekeeping if you are joining us, and I can see that there's quite a few people joining us.

I appreciate that. Thank you. and you wish to make a comment, the very easiest place to do that is probably on the YouTube channel, and if you're on YouTube, you found it already. the, other easiest place I suppose would be to go to wp builds.com/live. Remkus is currently sporting it under his chin there.

Look, yeah, it's. Easy, isn't it? No, it's not WP Bills. It's so not easy. Is it to get the finger right? It's wp bills.com/live. If you go there, then you'll have the YouTube comments on the right hand side if you're on a desktop. and also you'll notice that in the actual video player it says live chat at the top righthand corner, you can click that and invoke a non-Google Chat.

You don't need to be logged into anything, you just type in your name and and you're off to the races. And I can see that a few people have done that already, so I appreciate it. Who have we got? We've got Influence WP so that'd be Ryan joining us. Hello from Sunny Charlotte, North Carolina. Us Hello Indeed.

Thank you so much. WebLogic. Who's WebLogic?

[00:07:13] Remkus de Vries: One Who wants to stay anonymous?

[00:07:15] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Anonymous. Okay. hello from Sonny for a change of uk. Yeah, I bet it's somebody I do know. I just can't make the connection. I'm sorry about that. Web of Logic. friendly web guy, that I know who this is. This is Dave. there is a bright object in the sky that's warm.

Is that the sun also in the Yeah, it is hot today. It's actually hot in the uk. We've got actual sun. And what am I doing? I'm sitting in here droning on about WordPress. What the, anyway, Tammy Lister also joining us. Hi. From the uk where it's apparently summer Tim Nash is joining us. Never heard of him. but he's commenting about the song, so that was nice.

friendly web guy. Dave. Hello friends, that's Courtney Robertson. Ross Wintel. Hello Ross. Hello. We a rare week off in Swindon and so whatcha you doing with your time? You're joining us and I really appreciate, that. Kami McNamara over on Washington State. I want to say good morning. Raining in Seattle.

There you go. Justin Rad. You go, thank you. That's who Web Logic is. And finally, nomad Skateboarding in San Diego. So I usually don't do the weather report as it's almost always sunny. Anybody wants something always that's just not fair, In Amsterdam, it's basically the same weather as we get here.

M 'cause it's usually a bit gray and

[00:08:40] Remkus de Vries: fish. I have, no clue. That's an hour and a half away from me.

[00:08:44] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. That's a, it's a long way. okay. That's it. That's what we got for you. in terms of the panel, let's get stuck into the bits and pieces that we've got and let me just find the, why won't that caption go off?

Where is it? There it is. It's hidden beneath menu. There we go. It's a relief. I know. Thank you. wp builds.com. This is our website if you fancy, subscribing. I appreciate it. When you do, I get a e little email notification each time somebody does it. It's quite nice to wake up in the morning to a few of those.

Stick your email address in here, and click subscribe and we'll send you two emails a week. One. When we repurpose this, we'll spin this around as a podcast. Mark ju just checking. Nathan,

[00:09:22] Tim Nash: how much do you appreciate getting those emails?

[00:09:24] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, I, oh, what are you gonna do? What script are you gonna write? What one are you gonna have At my expense?

I'm pretty sure it's, you've gotta a click on a link in an email, I'm pretty sure. So hopefully, anyway, put your email address in there and you'll get two emails a week. One when we repurpose this as a podcast. And then on a Thursday when we do our podcast episodes as well. And I just wanted to highlight, because we had a week off because of the page builder Summit, which went on last week.

I never got to mention, I. or at least I don't think I got to mention that I did a non podcast, the episode. 'cause we do bits and pieces. I've got nothing to don't go into any feed or anything like that. They're just standalone episodes. Go out on YouTube, things like that. and I did one with, Joe Dawson.

We call it the Accessibility show. And guess what, it's about accessibility. And each time I do it, Joe picks one bit, one tiny little bit of a WordPress website. And in this time he was trying to find and use menus on restaurant websites. And it literally, the thing that you order the food from that menu.

and it was absolutely brutal. so if you got a restaurant, website, go and see the cl. The key to having a restaurant website is not to always have a PDF as the menu. I know it's convenient, but if you've got accessibility issues, it's not always the easiest thing to use. Anyway, there you go.

You can find that in the archive Accessibility Show Archive just there. And also hat tip to, Joe, this isn't really anything to do with WordPress, but I thought as I've got him on the screen, I might mention something else that he's doing. Joe Dolson has taken over something called Able Player. I confess, I've never heard of this product, but it's a, it's a, an accessible, or at least as accessible apparently as you can get video player, which is open source.

And it's been run by, somebody called Terrell Thompson since 2010 when they came up with the idea. And obviously, over in the recent weeks, they've decided they can no longer put the time into the project. And so they've, gifted it and passed the torch onto Joe, who is gonna try and keep the whole project going.

He's looking for help. He's got a few things that he wants to do, get rid of the jQuery dependency, and he wants to make the design a little bit better. So if you, if that's your bag and you wanna help him, make the web a little bit more accessible for video, then and go check him out. Joe dolson.com is the URL.

Okay, great. Right now what about, oh no, that's not gonna go first. I'm gonna do this one first because the way we're doing the show now is if any of the guests bring anything that they just wanna mention, we're gonna do that right at the top after I've done my little promo bits. And here's the first one, from Mku who's put a post out called Stop Obsessing Over Image Optimization.

There's no point in me summarizing it. You wrote it? What? What's going on here? Rimkus?

[00:12:15] Remkus de Vries: I wrote down a whole bunch of words. There's no point in me in summarizing. People won't read it then.

[00:12:19] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Go, and read it. And, Moving on. The next piece is GPT.

[00:12:24] Remkus de Vries: Please summarize the following.

[00:12:26] Corey Maass: RL That's right.

but you, eight words or less an accent.

[00:12:32] Remkus de Vries: Use 50 words, please. so the emphasis is on the second word. I, see this happen a lot, of times on, all different types of, performance audits or, reviews or whatever. there's folks who think if I start, 'cause let me press preface this, with the vast majority of how to make WordPress faster, types of tutorials and things written about it are focusing on the heavy things, which are, or can be the images, right?

It makes zero sense if you're loading a 24 MB image when a hundred kb would've been, enough. But there's too much effort into this and too little effort into what the larger parts of your website, what kind of parts could actually slow down your site. And spoiler alert, most oftentimes do. So this is just me saying, look, keep focusing on the thing, of images.

Sure. But be aware that this is a thing that on most sites is not gonna be the huge issue. It's also super easy to solve. but LCP, Other block, render blocking, types of assets and all that they deserve your, your attention probably a little bit or even a lot more.

[00:13:55] Nathan Wrigley: If I was to give you mku at a vanilla WordPress site and, you were setting one up, just, I don't know, for a blog or something like that, what would be the way that you would handle images?

Are you gonna be using plugins or are you writing code? It depends. Some code or are you doing Yeah, go on.

[00:14:10] Remkus de Vries: So it depends on, who is the editor? Okay, who's the one actually, who's the person actually writing it? if you can be certain that the editorial team behind that understands that before you upload it, it actually needs to be optimized and, made smarter, then, you don't have to do much if that's, oh, I don't know if that's that person is in place or understands it and I just wanna have it solved properly.

I think my favorite solution is Cloud four images. It, essentially takes care of everything and with, with Jonos plugin added to it, it's just a great combination. I. It essentially, whatever image you upload, it always renders the most optimized version. 'cause that's how you ex, essentially code it.

[00:15:01] Nathan Wrigley: I have a feeling that you are, pretty like, into CloudFlare. That's, I'm

[00:15:05] Remkus de Vries: pretty What?

[00:15:07] Nathan Wrigley: we'll stop there. Yeah. You are, you are pretty, into speed and, and you like Yeah. And you like CloudFlare. Yes. Is that, feature, is that one of the paid it, it's, yeah. Okay. Yeah,

[00:15:20] Remkus de Vries: it's, but it's, part of CloudFlare Pro, which is 25 a month, and it's on the performance and lots of security elements.

And Tim can elaborate on those elements. It does not cover, but it covers a lot, on making your site smarter, faster, all that nice APO is included.

[00:15:42] Corey Maass: I'd like to talk about the other part that Remkus has brought up, which is maybe the harder battle to fight, which is getting. People who write words and who are not technical to optimize images smartly before.

Yep. Uploading them.

[00:16:02] Remkus de Vries: That's the ideal world.

[00:16:04] Corey Maass: That's, and that's, to me, that's the battle that I've been fighting for years. I built a little website called Crop Express. Plug, but it's free, so just go use it. But it at least resizes images and lets, lets you set up presets so that people can't upload images that are 5,000 by 5,000.

When 1200 by 1200 would do.

[00:16:33] Remkus de Vries: you know what, I'll add it to the page, to the post here. 'cause that is a good tool. What was it called?

[00:16:39] Nathan Wrigley: Crop Express. Did you just say that? Let me, let me go and find it.

[00:16:45] Corey Maass: but then, the harder part is honestly pe 'cause people can see an image size, right? So they're like, oh, it used to be a rectangle and I need it to be a square.

And now it's a square. But still trying to get. Your average non-techie to Yeah, that's a challenge. Run it through. Even if you tell them the application and you write a document, you write documentation or you make a little, a fun little video, or you sing and dance about, all you've gotta do is drag the image on top of this app or whatever that's going to compress it.

They don't do it.

[00:17:21] Nathan Wrigley: Does your, O-M-G-I-M-G plugin does your hand, does it, I know the intention of that plugin is to create images, but does it also handle some of this work as well of reducing the size, and creating different versions?

[00:17:35] Corey Maass: Not technically, yes, but not really in the way that Remkus is talking about.

Okay. Like it, because the, ideal situation, the, primary purpose of OMG was to create, social images and those have a finite. Defined pixel width and height. but they still ideally could be compressed or they still could be in the wrong format, or it can still be an issue. it's hard to protect people from themselves all the way down.

[00:18:10] Nathan Wrigley: I, have to ask, so Remus, in this whole optimization thing, we're, where's it gone? There we go. So this is your piece, I should have said the name of it. So it's, on Mku website, mku to res.com, and you're gonna search for stop obsessing over image optimization. It was published on the 12th of May. is the goal here always basically about a search engine?

I, know that it's this anecdotal kind of back and forth between whether your website is usable, but is it basically to try and, not game, improve your search engine rankings?

[00:18:44] Remkus de Vries: The reason why I published the post?

[00:18:47] Nathan Wrigley: No, the reason why you would obsess one might. Oh, okay.

[00:18:50] Remkus de Vries: So, the, every single version of site optimization serves one goal, and that is to optimize your user, abil your user friendliness of the website.

So from a security perspective, from a performance perspective, from an SEO perspective, UX is where it's at. So anything and everything you do that improves, that will render a more, performance site. And that you can see that in the little, in the non-literal version. but the, result is you have a site that is easy to navigate to, to, navigate through.

So again, if you're loading. Large images, the, loading of your site is just slow. It's just, nobody likes that you've been on those sites and you click away from them. Yeah. You don't, like clicking to the next page. all of the analytic solutions that are being used have this sort of tracking in place where they understand, look, if the, if you end up on that page and you then look further on that same site, there must be something interesting and pleasant happening on that site.

and you want to, service that as much as possible, and large images obviously is a good one to do, but there's a few other stuff, a few other things that, that, just make it unpleasant to, yeah.

[00:20:10] Nathan Wrigley: Brows around, consume

[00:20:11] Remkus de Vries: the site. Yeah.

[00:20:13] Nathan Wrigley: The, the, goal was al, it always felt like a lot of this stuff was, based around tools that Google would put out, like Lighthouse and things like that, so you could measure if what you did before was better than what you've got now.

Yep. I'm really not a big user of ai, but everything that I see and all the conversations that I have, I see this tidal wave of people who are stopping to use search engines and are starting to use. You for want of a better word, ai, chat, GPT and so on.

[00:20:42] Remkus de Vries: Yep.

[00:20:42] Nathan Wrigley: And, it'd be really curious over the next few years how big that shift is and whether or not the whole Google optimization thing will matter as

[00:20:51] Remkus de Vries: much.

You, you're not optimizing for Google.

[00:20:53] Nathan Wrigley: No, I agree. But I you're

[00:20:55] Remkus de Vries: optimizing for any type of, entity that either scours your site, so that's the, ai, just the same. but you're essentially optimizing your site for humans. Yeah. And the better you do a job at that, the more clicks you're going to get.

Yeah. The more views you're going to see through them, different mediums. There is, there's no Google favoritism here.

[00:21:19] Nathan Wrigley: Can I, can I just change the subject a little bit? 'cause you and I Remkus we haven't spoken, so I don't think, since 6.8 landed. And just a tiny aside for a minute, can you explain the, speculation rules, API and how that works?

'cause that's obviously a new feature in WordPress 6.8 where basically your WordPress website is going to try in a very kind of let's go conservative way. It's gonna try and preload things that you haven't already interacted with.

[00:21:49] Remkus de Vries: Yeah, you're putting me

[00:21:49] Tim Nash: on the spot here, man. Come on. Oh, sorry. It's all right because I did the explanation CO two weeks ago.

It is forgotten already. Was it? Was it you?

[00:21:57] Nathan Wrigley: Was it you? Yeah. Okay, thank you. Yeah, it's actually

[00:21:59] Remkus de Vries: a smart mechanism that kind of figures out your, browsing intent. And, as you hover something longer than a few milliseconds, then it kind of figures. You are gonna want to click on this so it starts loading the page.

You are almost clicking on. before you actually do. So when you actually do, it looks like it's instant, which makes it a very pleasant thing to, to look at.

[00:22:24] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. I was chatting to, Felix Ants, who is a Googler and he's, he is helping the WordPress project with the performance team and things like that.

And, we got into some really curious ideas like, wouldn't it be interesting in the future if you could have hardware. Like your mouse. If it had a sensor in which could perceive where, what your finger was about to do, if it could figure out that your finger was descending or something like that, you could push it even a little bit further.

It got a bit outta hand in all. I

[00:22:52] Remkus de Vries: think in other markets that would've sort of sentient. yeah. Apparatus more.

[00:22:58] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Oh, I was thinking like a mobile phone that could somehow figure out that, your finger was approaching this. 'cause obviously you don't have this hover event on a mobile phone, but that would be an important place to have it.

Yeah. If somehow it could figure out that the finger is just about to descend on a button. I don't know. It's probably taking things

[00:23:14] Tim Nash: I think we shouldn't be talking about fingers and descending at all. I think. Not appropriate subject.

[00:23:19] Remkus de Vries: Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to hint at that without actually hinting at it.

[00:23:23] Nathan Wrigley: Moving on, moving swiftly on. okay. So there you go. That's Remus piece. Stop obsessing over image optimization. 12th of May. Go check it out. And we don't have anything from Corey, but we do have something from Tim. and do you wanna just explain what you're doing, where you're doing it, when you're doing it?

[00:23:42] Tim Nash: yeah. Can I just go back to the previous story? Just I'll very quickly

[00:23:45] Nathan Wrigley: Let me just go back. There we go.

[00:23:46] Tim Nash: Because I just wanna change the title. Oh. To stop obsessing over scores.

[00:23:52] Nathan Wrigley: Nice

[00:23:52] Tim Nash: because I think ultimately when I read the article that was pretty much not, was almost where it was heading along.

the problem most people have is they go and do go to Google Lighthouse and it will say you can optimize your image by 30% and you not, it's always the first thing and you are not gonna get this amazing score unless you do. And the reality is that has scores have very little bearing on actual user experience.

So if you are just optimizing for scores, you can still end up with humongously over bloated piece of junk that takes ages to load but can get perfect scores. Counter that with

[00:24:30] Remkus de Vries: most people don't understand this. You can actually get a perfectly scoring site that is experienced as a slow. Retarded.

Ridiculous. what am I doing here? Type of site. It's 100% possible.

[00:24:43] Tim Nash: Oh, really? You can gain it in those and the other way

[00:24:45] Remkus de Vries: around as well.

[00:24:45] Tim Nash: Okay. That's fascinating. To, give you an idea, I had a site that had that it, one of its complaints was that it could save me, that I, that one of my CSS files could be compressed by 30%.

The CSS file was three kilobytes. Okay. Yeah. But he gave a low score because it

[00:25:04] Corey Maass: was like 30%. It says huge margin. It's Tim, for a thousand dollars, I will optimize that tape.

[00:25:12] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I'll do it for 990. Tim, I undercut him every day.

[00:25:17] Tim Nash: So those scores really are, can be meaningless without context. It's not that they don't make great a little bit of a guideline, but if you just obsess over those and that alone, but it is made worse because clients can see a score so they latch onto it.

So you'll have people who know all of this, who will go, oh, no, I can't possibly, I know how to optimize this. Just let me do my job. And they're going, yeah, but Google says this. And it's Google's not saying that an automated tool is saying that's got some random stuff in it.

[00:25:51] Corey Maass: It's, it doesn't account for, I've got, one of my big clients is a magazine, right?

We've, there's pages where there's no images and, 6,000 words, and there's pages with 60 images because they do galleries. and, you can't treat those the same. And you also can't say all the images are, this big because then you view them on, an iPad and they're all suddenly a hundred percent width.

And, so yeah, it's, all contextual, which of course, we're getting better and closer with. with various tools. But at the end of the day, a simple, like you say, a, thumbs up or thumbs down kind of score is not gonna help anybody.

[00:26:33] Nathan Wrigley: I'm gonna put you on the spot again, Riku, but you can just say, I'm not gonna answer that question.

'cause you might not know. Is there any curious, interesting new thing like down the road with the W three C or anything like that to make this work a bit easier so you don't have to have multiple image sizes that things will just be done?

[00:26:52] Remkus de Vries: Yeah. in a way we already have that technology. Okay.

But, I'm gonna answer your question with a different type of answer. and, that this, piggybacks on what Tim said. There's, what PE most people don't understand is that lighthouse score that you do on the inspect browser thing, that's a lab result, which is why it can be gamed. the opposite of that is real user measurement.

So rum measures what factually is happening in the browser. So if you wanna learn from, 'cause in the comments, one of the comments is from Jackson, it says, but clients love scores great. Get 'em to adapt to understand, Chrome ux. Get 'em to understand rum for, with, for instance, rum vision. If they want to chase scores, then at least at the bottom line, work with scores that are factual.

[00:27:54] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you. I've got, I'm just browsing through these things. We had, where is that? As new ones come, there we go. There was this one. Speaking of optimization and SEO, this is my, a AI bit. We're entering the era of answer engine optimization. Yeah. It's curious. I, don't really use AI much, but presumably when you ask an AI for a result.

Especially if it's like some sort of voice interaction. Do you, normally just get one or does an AI list them out in like a serp like, as bullet points or anything like that? I don't really know.

[00:28:26] Tim Nash: It depends where you asked it. Yeah. Yeah. If, you asked it, please give me the top answer to this and only one answer and make it a binary yes or no, then it will waffle for 10 minutes about something completely unrelated to do with cooking and then say yes.

[00:28:40] Nathan Wrigley: But I, wonder Anyway, we'll come, there's a bit in a minute where we'll come onto some WordPress who's trying to fill up the AI with the perfect way of asking a question in order to spit out WordPress code. I, just don't use these kind of things, so I'm really curious as to how it works.

But, anyway, there we go. That was James Lau. Thank you very much. Corey. Said, good point. This

[00:29:02] Corey Maass: is the issue, right? Like we bigger picture. Something I struggle with regularly and talk about regularly is we all live in a little bubble. And so like the, somebody's comment Oh yeah. With the web WebLogic, Justin's comment about having a client who has an old iPad who complains that the website is, doesn't have a perfect breakpoint for that iPad.

I struggle with this. I have a online game, Mexican train online. Apparently I'm plugging all of my side projects that, are, not current or That was fine. You didn't do it at the beginning. It's all

[00:29:37] Nathan Wrigley: good,

[00:29:38] Corey Maass: right? but it's, so this is a game I built during, COVID. I did a fantastic talk about it at Word Camp US last September.

Everybody should go watch that video. I'm actually immensely proud of the project and my talk. I will never speak again, ironically, because it's never gonna get better than that. but the. The demographic for that, skews much older, and so most of the people who use that site regularly are older.

And so the, sheer variety of devices that I hear about, oh, it doesn't work on, my blackberry from, 96 or whatever, but people still expect that or want that or what have you. all of these as examples of I mean it's responsiveness, but we're getting to another degree of responsiveness, which is consumed by AI and then interacted with by people on devices we haven't thought about or in ways that we haven't thought about.

And like I was talking to somebody about SEO yesterday and he is great, how do I make sure that when people are talking to their phone interacting with ai. and mention pepper sauce, that my product comes up and I'm like, futon if I know, there's just no way to know, how this information is gonna get there.

I

[00:31:13] Nathan Wrigley: couldn't hold it. That nobody will know why. That's funny. except the four of us.

[00:31:22] Remkus de Vries: except the mother futon we'll know.

[00:31:25] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, Okay. Yeah. I'm a

[00:31:25] Corey Maass: mother futon for even bringing, it's gonna go, it's gonna get messy, but it's, but again, it's these how do we, talk to clients, right?

Like we, we live in this, in a, tech bubble where we, do understand scores and we understand when scores aren't relevant, but, the field gets broader and the use cases get more and more bizarre, frankly. and, trying to explain that to clients is getting more and more difficult from my perspective.

[00:31:57] Nathan Wrigley: I had this intuition like 10 years ago that by now we'd be using a whole bunch of different devices for the internet. So I, assumed that, voice would be a real thing that everybody would throw in their home and it would slowly start to take over and everybody threw it in their home. And then about two years later just basically switch them off or asked it to play a song, or perhaps the weather, but I don't know if it's the same for you but not else.

Start a time. Yeah, Because set me a Exactly. that's the big use. Yeah. Set me a timer. And then there was, the augmented reality and Google Glass and all these kind of things. It, feels like none of that is taken off in any major way. It feels like we're still stuck on a, basically a screen, a rectangle of pixels of some kind.

And, can't see really that changing, but this new interface. So it's not a device, but this new interface of AI feels like a real possible change. And I'm definitely like everybody else getting caught up in the hype of it all. And I don't know if it'll replace or supplant search in any way, but it definitely feels like it's got the capacity.

To do that. But to Tim's point earlier about, it depends what you ask it. I, go to Google because I don't want it. Yeah. Thank you. Mka. I go to Google 'cause I don't want to ask it, I don't want the preamble of how to set up the result. It gives me, I just wanna go there, type in the one thing and get this predictable set of things back.

I don't wanna have to preface it with, okay, give me a bullet pointed list of this, that, and the other, da dah.

[00:33:23] Tim Nash: I guess the counter to that is you are preemt, you are just shifting the point at which the preamble goes.

[00:33:29] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. If, we did use a

[00:33:30] Tim Nash: genuine cooking scenario, let's say you are looking for a recipe to make a cupcake.

you just want please give me a recipe for a cupcake. It will probably return you a recipe for how to do a cupcake. Might not be a good recipe. It might be an amalgamation of recipes, but it will give you a recipe. If you were to go to an average website asking for the recipe of a cupcake, you would get someone's entire life story, including why this happened.

Yeah. And how it was, so how this cupcake changed their lives in this inspirational way. And they aren't doing generational. They, but they are doing that for search engines. Okay. They're doing that for ad traffic. They are doing that not for the user experience. So in that respect, the AI is getting rid of all of that.

The downside is, it is like talking to a, so you might as well have gone to your kid and gone. Hey, give me a recipe for a cupcake. You might get the right answer out of it. You might not. It might also go add snot.

[00:34:32] Nathan Wrigley: That's right. Yes, it's fine. The beef in the las the beef in the trifle kind of thing.

Yeah. And it goes 'cause it was on friends in that episode way back when. Oh gosh. This is fascinating. Okay, we've got completely derailed. let's just see some of the bits and pieces that we've got in the comments. So firstly, James Lau is obviously checking very carefully what's going on in the background of Corey.

just noted Corey's backdoor post a good. Wonderful. Good.

[00:34:58] Corey Maass: What? Okay. It's there tho those of you in specifically in England might remember a hit from, I don't know, 20 years ago. Oh, Z Bias's song, neighborhood. no. And this is a quote Okay. From it. That one's

[00:35:11] Nathan Wrigley: sadly not landing, for me.

[00:35:14] Corey Maass: which it's pretty obscure and it's, and that's part of why I, I made, the poster and, 'cause I've been waiting for this exact experience, oh.

Since I put on my door. It's just two years ago, this ly

[00:35:29] Nathan Wrigley: And you've planted James Lau in the comments so that he can bring it everybody's attention. I dunno what you are gonna think of this Mku. This is a product in the WordPress space. Kami is talking about improvements. There's a product out of the, makers of blog vault and malware and things like that.

It's an AI. Kind of one click button thing. It's called airlift. It's great for score improvements for clients that obsess about it. Dunno what your thoughts are on that.

[00:35:55] Remkus de Vries: it's a big note. Big note. As soon as you leave optimization to auto, auto, automating, like one click and I don't have, no can't.

[00:36:06] Corey Maass: Okay. So years ago, I'm sure, there's a margin

[00:36:07] Remkus de Vries: where it's fine, but no.

[00:36:10] Corey Maass: Years ago a plugin came out that you could put on your WordPress site that people could come when com when comments were still a, popular thing, people could comment and the comment would only be stored in a cookie on their machine.

And whenever they would look at the comments, they would see their comment because it would be pulled from the cookie. But the rest of the world never actually saw their comments. Any of the, and I'm just picturing a, what we need is a plugin that. Shows the clients whatever score we want them to see.

I love it. It's a goldmine. Press a button and a green progress bar goes across the screen that doesn't actually do anything, and then the score goes up incrementally like by one or two points. And then you press another button that's like schaff, the futon doodads and you press a button and then the green progress bar goes across, I think the bigger, and then

[00:37:07] Remkus de Vries: the score goes up by two points.

I think the bigger question here is, Cory, why haven't you built it yet? Yeah, I'm

[00:37:12] Nathan Wrigley: gonna go build, its genius. I building genius. So you just find it some IP address or something like that. This is the client's IP address every time. This is So give them this impeccable score.

[00:37:23] Tim Nash: so I I, have a little bit of a confession.

Oh no, you didn't. I, got fed up once with a client telling me about GT metric scores and I realized that you could tell from the user agent when they arrived that they were from GT metrics. So we just served them a white page with hello on it and it did it, to be fair, it did come up, 'cause obviously GT metrics, you see the picture?

Yeah. It blatantly came up with a white screen that said hello. But he got amazing scores, result. But the client

[00:37:54] Nathan Wrigley: probably typed it into GT metrics, hit return, went away, made a coffee, came back and just looked at the score. It's like a

[00:38:00] Tim Nash: hundred. Yeah. Through the board. actually no, I had to go back and make one change where I had to, put one image hooked onto a from a CDN.

'cause otherwise you didn't get the perfect score for the CDN part because all, images have to be served over c dn. So I had to do that. So I had make, but yeah, just literally Can I just ask,

[00:38:20] Nathan Wrigley: is this a client you still have?

[00:38:22] Tim Nash: No.

[00:38:23] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, that's fine. oh, that's hysterical. But Corey, we fully expect that plugin to be better.

Honestly. You'll sell a boatload of them as well. 'cause it's just a, I'd like an version,

[00:38:35] Remkus de Vries: please.

[00:38:35] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Make your clients

[00:38:36] Corey Maass: happy.com. That's great. four, yeah, 4 99 a year for the agency version.

[00:38:43] Nathan Wrigley: multi-site. Multi-site install. Let's have a look here, see what else we've got. It's got James rep replying, Claude replies with a more human, with more of a human option for multiple answers.

Okay, thank you. ba b ba. What else? I showed her in Google Analytics that 3% of her visitors are on a tablet. I maybe that was to do with her Brian. I

[00:39:03] Tim Nash: think that was to do with her old iPad. Old iPad. Ah,

[00:39:06] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Great. Thank you. Camie, my client contract states I only test on modern devices and browsers.

I'm not designing for your no flip. Oh, yeah. Smart. That putting that in the contract is genius. Tammy is smart. Yeah. But specifically the flip. What about some of the variant of, no phone? was

[00:39:26] Remkus de Vries: it 2002?

[00:39:28] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, Anything prior to 2002? James Lao says, Brian Cord shared an article that talked about giving your kids AI powered toys to keep them entertained for you.

Honestly, I think if you give kids ai, they're never coming up for air, are they? That'll be the last time you see them. You do need a

[00:39:46] Remkus de Vries: curious, kid. Yeah. Not, all kids

[00:39:48] Nathan Wrigley: are. and then something about a podcast Jack Clark on AI's Uneven Impact. Some clients hate the idea, this is WebLogic idea of their web designer using AI due to all the scaremongering around ai.

Ai.

[00:40:06] Remkus de Vries: Okey doke. Don't mention it to them then.

[00:40:08] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Or install, the soon to be announced plugin from Corey Maass and, show we haven't working title,

[00:40:16] Remkus de Vries: yet. Corey.

[00:40:18] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:40:19] Corey Maass: Call it

[00:40:19] Nathan Wrigley: mother phone. I'm over

[00:40:20] Corey Maass: here typing into chat. GPT describing as, yeah. Describing the plugin and saying, give me, gimme 20 good names and that.

Okay.

[00:40:26] Nathan Wrigley: Whilst you do that, I want to hear of those in a minute. I'm curious to see what kind of things it comes, up for. da Do the, panel have any websites they use for multi-device website testing? that wouldn't be a question for me. I'm gonna hand that to the pros. Do you have a website?

I guess by website you mean like a SaaS tool or something like that? Do you. you means

[00:40:48] Tim Nash: like things like browser shots and stuff? Yeah. Where

[00:40:50] Nathan Wrigley: it just shows like four configurations of browsers. Yeah. Browser shots. There you go. that's a good one. There's, they're 10 a penny Really, aren't they? I imagine.

I've got one called Hfi, which is in the, which is a Chrome extension in the browser, and it shows all of those kind of things as one of the things,

[00:41:07] Corey Maass: a slight twist on this, I use a, browser. It's a Chrome Fork, whatever we're calling them these days. but there's a, browser called Responsibly, or Responsibly app.

Okay. and it basically just opens the same page. in desktop size, tablet size, and cell phone size, mobile, excuse me. and so as you're scrolling, they all scroll together and it's just a really easy, it's not totally perfect 'cause obviously you're not actually looking on it in an actual device, but it's a neat way to see the same page.

On all devices at the same time. And if you scroll one, they all scroll together. Nice kind of thing. Yeah. So slight twist on what you're describing. What was that called? Responsibly? Responsibly app. I'll Responsibly app.

[00:42:00] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Go and, go and use your favorite chat. GPT Clone of choice to figure out how to Exactly.

okay. Or just Google it, like the old fashioned way. it just occurs to me, did we finish expo explaining that Tim had a course? Did we get through to the end of that? Tim did you, was there anything? No, we

[00:42:20] Tim Nash: didn't even start it. We didn't, we just

[00:42:22] Nathan Wrigley: totally got hijacked. That was what I was thinking.

I was thinking it's on the screen, but Right. Start again. What are you running here? Tim is running a course that you can find it at wp Security one oh one.com. Let's go back to the beginning. Reset. When is it what you're doing? Give us the, skinny.

[00:42:39] Tim Nash: So it's, a course rather than a workshop.

So you, it's a learn at your own pace style. course that's gonna be launched the end of the May. Barry may now have to shift into the beginning of, June. already on there it says that there's over four hours of video content. 28 hours have been filmed, and we're currently editing it down to closer to maybe 10.

So that four hours was wildly optimistic on my part of the, I could get everything done in four hours.

[00:43:07] Remkus de Vries: Wow.

[00:43:07] Tim Nash: So you're looking at closer to 10, and then we'll probably have another 10 plus hours of bonus materials to feed out to people at the end of this. but yeah, it's for anybody who is in the WordPress space as a WordPress, I've been using the phrase WordPress developer or WordPress professional.

'cause it doesn't necessarily need development skills. But if you are an, a worker, an agency, or you work in house and you are the WordPress person. This is probably the course for you. It is designed round this idea of it being like for professional development and professional, as in your personal professional development, not as in coding.

And so it should work if you have CPD set up inside your, organization and company. hopefully the hours you'd spend on this course should count, and if they don't, you can email me and I will go and ask your HR people mostly to make them cats.

[00:44:02] Nathan Wrigley: He's gonna make up a certificate, just like he did with GT Metrics.

He's gonna make something up. And, I, it does come with certificates, so Nice. That'll, you'll, you can stop

[00:44:14] Tim Nash: right there. That's all the people needed to know. Does it have a certificate? Yeah, it's, the plan is to come with a shiny badge. And the reason for it is, I don't know if anybody's ever had to look at WordPress security training courses.

They are, we're not allowed to swear. They're not very good at all.

[00:44:30] Remkus de Vries: We can say shy though, right? That's

[00:44:33] Tim Nash: not, allowed either. No. Okay, so, they're not very good. and crap. And

[00:44:39] Remkus de Vries: you say crap.

[00:44:39] Tim Nash: Oh, good.

[00:44:40] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. This is the next 10 minutes gone, isn't it? This we go through the dictionary of, so swear words carry on.

[00:44:49] Tim Nash: So I thought I'd make one. That wasn't so terrible. So terrible. Yeah.

[00:44:52] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you. okay. It always descends into silliness, doesn't it? WP Security one oh one.com. Can I just say it, dragging it back to some sort of seriousness, that I think there's quite a lot of how to describe it. There's a bit of snake oil in the WordPress space around security, and it is not Tim.

I think it's fair to say that Tim really, knows his stuff. And, if you are looking for something in the WordPress space, this would be my portal call. go and check it out. tons of content in there. WP one, sorry. WP Security 1 0 1. dot com. There you go. And, CO's having a right old laugh, what did I do?

[00:45:36] Corey Maass: Dear Chat, GPT. Oh, there we go. Okay.

[00:45:38] Nathan Wrigley: Gone. Gone.

[00:45:39] Corey Maass: My clients are obsessed with performance and optimization scores. Dot please help me come up with 10 slightly funny, slightly snarky titles and descriptions for this plugin. Okay. number one, score Whisper or pro gently persuades those pesky performance metrics to tell a more

[00:46:00] Nathan Wrigley: optimistic story.

Story number two, metric mirage. Oh, that's, it. Number three. Page speed. Placebo.

[00:46:17] Remkus de Vries: Yeah, but that's giving away a little too much. Yeah,

[00:46:19] Nathan Wrigley: that's, yeah. Yeah, Optimize me not.

I think these are

[00:46:30] Remkus de Vries: hims like all quiet. 'cause all he had all was names on your already.

[00:46:34] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it's definitely undermining. I love these though. I think that's brilliant. And presumably there are like six more.

[00:46:42] Corey Maass: Here's here. Here's the one that will actually work. 'cause you're right, kus, like they, those give too much away.

This one is called Score more. Oh, M-O-R-M-O-A-R-M-O-R-E.

[00:46:54] Nathan Wrigley: Like we a hundred percent guarantee that at the end of this testing you will have improved your WordPress score by any metric. Whatever metric. Yeah. You want. That's a genius idea. Thank you so much. a comment just related to what we had a minute ago, but this rings a bell.

I haven't used it, but Blis, that's another, I think, variant of the browser that is. Pointing towards developers a bit more. We are ne we are nearly an hour in and we actually haven't got to our first story yet, which is a somewhat of a record. so let's quickly see if we can get some of this bits, these bits and pieces done.

WordPress had for a very short space of time, WordPress had a, a media call. I dunno if this is gonna matter to, anybody else, but for me, and, the

[00:47:43] Remkus de Vries: 24 other

[00:47:43] Tim Nash: people.

[00:47:44] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, yeah. Where is it there on this? Yeah. 24 actually.

[00:47:47] Tim Nash: Were you even on the email update list or are you got, I was, yeah,

[00:47:51] Nathan Wrigley: I was, essentially about a year ago, a team was formed to, to try and make it so that you could distribute WordPress news more easily.

The idea really would be that there'd be this like clearing house with it somewhere, and then the stories would get. Told to people who produce newsletters and podcasts and YouTube channels and things like that. But this story's basically just to say it fizzled out. I think trying to do this thing from a central location probably was, never gonna work.

The, people who produce news are as soon as they get something, they're gonna write it down and publish it on their own. And yeah. Anyway, so if you had any interest in that, probably, you didn't,

[00:48:31] Tim Nash: Nathan, have you ever had an embargo from like the wordpress.org team where they've said you cannot tell anybody about this till they, X date, I think, or was it always just fed to you and then you were to disseminate it when you wanted?

[00:48:48] Nathan Wrigley: No, I think once I did, did you obey it once? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. If I, get, a lot of, for example, I'm under embargo for something at the minute. I. That I'm not gonna tell you about, because it's under embargo. And, and I do, I would totally honor that. If I say I'm gonna honor it, then I will honor it.

But, not usually it's for commercial reasons. somebody's got a plugin and they're not quite ready, but they wanna just see if they could maybe do a podcast episode or something like that. And so they'll, but they, only put it in words. They say, this is embargoed, can you honor that? And I say, yes, but it's never anything of, any importance.

the sky would not fall in for anything I've ever been told to embargo. I once

[00:49:32] Tim Nash: got myself on a mailing lister. I'm still on somehow, and I get. Every tech journalist on the planet sending me a, so it's not tech journals, tech me media press releases. Yeah. Random things. And they all start with, this is embargo to the footage of the tape.

And I'm like, I am just gonna set up a site that just is called pre embargo release. I just, yeah. Because I don't ask for this stuff, it just turns up. I, but I was wondering if that was maybe part of the problem is that there wasn't any coordination for releasing of information and that was one of the reasons this was, this failed.

[00:50:08] Nathan Wrigley: I think also it's because the, people who do the, media in the WordPress space that they're obviously quite keen to, as soon as they hear something, if they think it's important to their readers, they're quite, they just wanna turn it around. And so having some sort of clearinghouse inside a.org, which was probably gonna be only.org stuff.

And, how slow that, a Leviathan can move. most things I think got picked up more quickly and written in the way that the, journalists, Ray at the repository for example, would like to write it before anything happens. So anyway, that, that enterprise ended. I dunno if anybody's got anything to say about that, but probably not.

[00:50:48] Remkus de Vries: I think it was never the right thing to do. No. Okay. There's, just. Too many, there's too many things you can raise. Why that is not a smart construction of no wanting to get stuff out.

[00:51:02] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. So there you go. The media, core has come to an end, so that's the end of that. Okay. Moving on in that case, let's see if we can keep the pace going a little bit.

Sorry, I've

[00:51:12] Tim Nash: just seen Corey's message. Yeah.

[00:51:14] Nathan Wrigley: What's he

[00:51:15] Tim Nash: written?

[00:51:15] Nathan Wrigley: Where's it gone? Oh, maybe don't. Oh, really? Okay. I won't, I, it was there briefly on the screen if you wanna rewind. Dear Viewer, dear, listen, whatever that was is now in the Annals of History. so this one, this is quite interesting. So a two hosting, oh, perfect

[00:51:32] Remkus de Vries: timing.

Not too soon.

[00:51:33] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. I, will read that and probably have a heart attack or something in a moment. a two hosting that you probably all know in the WordPress space, they've been around for ages, they've rebranded, along with a. they've got a parent company and they're now called hosting.com.

They saw they, used up $2 million in order to purchase that, domain, which I'm actually, I know that's still a ton of money. And if somebody said to me, do you want $2 million? I'm gonna say yes, but I I would expected that URL to cost a ton more. I dunno why, but I would've thought it would've been more into the tens and twenties for millions for some reason.

Anyway, they are now called, hosting.com, and they have been bought under the, umbrella of a, larger organization, which again, seems quite new to me. Maybe you all know tons about it, but called World Host Group. And, so if you're an A two hosting company, person. Then I guess at some point your, the login and all of that is gonna change, but, quite an investment considering it's a WordPress specific company.

I dunno why that would matter, but, I would've thought somebody with bigger shoes than WordPress to film might have taken this on something like Squarespace or Wick or something

[00:52:49] Tim Nash: like that. I didn't think that a two was necessarily WordPress specific there, is it not? That's the way I

[00:52:54] Nathan Wrigley: always, yeah, that's how I always think about it.

Very

[00:52:57] Tim Nash: big supporters of Word Camp at Word Camps and of WordPress itself, but I don't, I think, they are, the, your typical hosting company, they do the whole domains hosting email, all the other Gump, they would've sold you an SSL certificates and all that stuff for a very long time.

as for world hosting group, they, seem to be buying up lots of companies and I a two, I think the biggest one I've heard of. But I've seen lots of little hosting companies being bought up by them and they've got. Quite a large presence, which when they start consolidating those, is gonna make them an interesting group to pay attention to.

not, that you're like GoDaddy scale, but they're still pretty gonna become pretty big players pretty quickly.

[00:53:44] Nathan Wrigley: So they, they, haven't been around for too many years. Founded in 2019. So this is not a two hosting obviously. This is this umbrella organization, world Host group founded in 2019, rapidly growing through acquisition.

they now have 800 staff, 11 offices, 40 plus global locations. I'm guessing that means data centers and things like that. 650,000 customers with over 3 million websites hosted. Okay. Alright. Let's see. Anybody got anything to add to that? It's deafening silence.

[00:54:21] Remkus de Vries: Yeah. But what I said, when we review this, before, the show, 'cause yes, we are that organized here.

we have about four minutes before we, go live.

[00:54:33] Tim Nash: Actually we have two minutes and then we overran.

[00:54:35] Remkus de Vries: Yeah, that's true. There you go. $2 million is a lot of money. on the other hand, it's a, perfect tax write off. It lowers your Oh, I see. Yeah. That thing.

[00:54:46] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Okay.

[00:54:47] Remkus de Vries: If you can, afford it, then it's a, I think it's a very sound investment.

I think it makes a lot of sense.

[00:54:55] Tim Nash: I know you said it's a sound investment. I, was trying to look it up to try and find the, exact pricing, but as I remember it, hosting.com sold for an awful lot more a few years earlier.

[00:55:06] Remkus de Vries: Did

[00:55:06] Tim Nash: it? So it's actually, it is gone down in price. Interesting. Which, no,

[00:55:12] Remkus de Vries: investment from a branding perspective, like hosting.com, that's a, cool name to have.

it's straightforward. It says, it does what it says on the tin. it's very brandable. I think it's a smart move.

[00:55:25] Nathan Wrigley: Whoever Ray is using for her ad insertion, she's she's, they've got the, they've got it all figured out, right? It's not doing it now. They've just flipped through. But just a moment ago, this ad down here on the repository website was showing, yeah, there you go.

Kinter. Then it moved on to Pressable, then it moved on to a bunch of other things. So it's definitely targeting the right audience there. Anyway, there you go. The

[00:55:46] Corey Maass: wordpress.com is hosting.com.

[00:55:50] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah,

[00:55:51] Corey Maass: It can't be more blunt for people who are non-technical.

[00:55:54] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, exactly. that's what I thought.

That's why I thought it was so valuable and why I thought 2 million seemed like not a lot of, I know it's a crazy large amount of money, but When you hear of, did you hear, for example, that ai.com is available and it's got the, asking price is a hundred million dollars and it's owned by a, guy whose initials are ai, it's like Andrew something, whatever his surname is begins with I, and he bought it back in the late nineties.

Just 'cause he wanted a domain for, before any, notion of ai. He just wanted a domain to keep his, web property, intact. And now he's decided to sell it for a hundred million. And it turns out there's a guy in New York who, that's all he does for a living is just sell high price domains and yeah, a hundred million.

So if anybody watching the show has got a hundred million dollars burning a hole in the back of their pocket, firstly, can we meet at some point just, a coffee or something, something like that. And then secondly, yeah, you could go and buy that domain for yourself. Do

[00:57:01] Tim Nash: you need a tax write off?

I would

[00:57:03] Nathan Wrigley: love a tax write off. I had a hundred million dollars to write off in tax. I would be very happy. okay, what have we got here? We've got a few comments. so this is about hosting.com. They stopped charging me. 20% VAT. So my reseller account just dropped. Okay. That's when it moved over from a two.

Is it? Okay. said they don't need to charge tax now that they've changed name. Gosh, that's an interesting reason not to charge tax. and then somebody at me, just to pivot, it would be good to discuss buying or selling web agencies in a future podcast. Thank you. you will. Think about that. That's a good idea.

Okay. Moving. I'm

[00:57:38] Tim Nash: wondering if rather than the change of names, it was probably, he also changed organizations and like, place of incorporation. Yeah. Which would probably explain the actual 20 because Yeah, I don't, that would be your, I think so your tax service has this one easy trick to afford.

That's

[00:57:55] Nathan Wrigley: right. They've changed name. Yeah. Yeah, that'd be great. I'd love that. No more tax for you. couple of things just on the community side, I dunno if you guys wanna comment on this, but, somebody in our community, and I do apologize for getting your name wrong, but Shunt b bha. Is the recipient of the Yost Care Fund for this year for the contributions to WordPress.

You can find this on the Yost blog. but then somebody, I dunno if it was in response to this, this is as the Jane, it's over at as the Jane I, I presume they're in India. wrote a post called How WordPress Community Helps Scholarships, helps you Scholarships, grants and support programs. And it's just a list.

It's quite helpful, I think, a list of all the different places that you can go to seek, finance. Let's say for example, you are hoping to get yourself off to a Word camp or something like that. So it lists things like the Diversity scholarship, the Kimah Sells scholarship, the one that we've just seen, Yost Diversity Fund, GoDaddy Fellowship, and a few more.

so if you are in the WordPress space and you are contributing a lot, and you would like that to turn into something to get you on a plane to an event, pay for your travel or some other things as well. Go and check that out. I will put the link into the show notes. Another community bit. I didn't realize, I didn't even know this was a thing.

I've been tied up doing this summit, which is now finished, WordCamp us, which has been, going on pre covid and then it took a pause and then it came back. It was in Portland last year. the idea was that it would be important for two years going back to that model of two years in the same location.

I didn't realize that the many of the people that were involved in organizing that event had stepped down, maybe because their contributions had been caught by their companies or what have you. And then Ray released this, to say that hopefully. Word Camp US is back on the agenda. The titles of the piece is Word Camp US 2025 moves ahead with new leads after automatic layoffs, disrupt planning.

And it basically, in theory it's supposed to happen. If you read the article, a few key people have either had burnout or they can't contribute the time 'cause their company's no longer helping them with that. but one of the, one of the key things to notice is that the, team that have stepped in.

I think Ray described 'em as not, I don't know. They, don't have as much experience, let's just put it that way. we'll see how that pans out. but also, they are quite far behind. If you were to map all of the different dominoes that had to fall last year to make it happen, they're quite a long way behind because the project was stalled.

gosh, I've never organized an event of this magnitude. I know Mku has, so I presume being delayed is fairly seismic and difficult, but,

[01:00:49] Remkus de Vries: I don't think the delay is that problematic just yet. Oh, great. first of all, there's gonna be a, handbook that can follow and it's the same location, so it essentially means the exact same things they can do.

ensure less experience doesn't help, but there's people mentoring still. What are we, are May now mid-May. Yeah, so May, it's gonna be July, August. August. It's three months. It's, it's the tightest I've ever done it. So it's, possible the, would been choice. No.

[01:01:25] Tim Nash: If there, did

[01:01:25] Nathan Wrigley: you say, what did you say?

Re I missed the last sentence.

[01:01:30] Remkus de Vries: W would it have been my choice to do it with in, in, inside of three months? No. No. Okay.

[01:01:38] Nathan Wrigley: Sorry Tim.

[01:01:39] Tim Nash: I was gonna say, if they're in doubt, they can call the, word Camp Glasgow team, who put together an entire Word camp in two weeks.

[01:01:45] Remkus de Vries: Nice. Yeah. And, you can, but probably not for 2000 people.

[01:01:51] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I suppose one piece that does help slightly is that the venue is the same, so they don't have to do any of the wrangling of all that. I presume it's been bought and paid for.

[01:02:02] Remkus de Vries: yeah, I don't like the idea of doing two word camps of this type. Back to back in the same location.

why

[01:02:11] Nathan Wrigley: do they do that? Is it just so they get a better deal on the accommodation?

[01:02:14] Remkus de Vries: I think so. I think so. Yeah. Okay. But, I think it's boring, to start with, it, you you, can get people excited about going there one day, but how many people go yeah, I been there.

[01:02:29] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah,

[01:02:30] Remkus de Vries: What am I gonna do there again?

I don't, know. I still don't see that logic.

[01:02:35] Nathan Wrigley: okay. anyway, good, luck. There are a bunch of people listed in this article. I should just name them if I can find them. Gail Wallace, Nicholas Gar Garrow. Far Go. Sorry, Nicholas, Carla Campos and Megan Marcel. And, no doubt, whole bunch of other people as well.

But it does seem that Marcel in particular, Megan, Marcel, has been, were in the, on the organizing team for, got 15 years of experience in event organizations. So maybe that brings a ray of hope. So there we go. That's that one. If you were planning on going, it would seem that it's still gonna be possible, but obviously speakers and tickets and all of that are still to be announced.

Moving over to European shores, word Camp Europe is happening in, oh, what is it? Like fifth, 20 days, 20 days, something like that. in Basel, Switzerland. I think you can still get tickets for that. So if you want to attend, I think you can still buy tickets, but there's a curious thing which is happening, which is tacked on to the event.

So this has got literally nothing to do with the event. I think they would be a great pains to point that bit out. But there's an event which is being added on to the end of one of the days. If somebody can tell me that, that would be, I'd be, oh, there you go. at the top. 6th of June. and, I think this is gonna be an interesting story to watch as it develops.

This seems to be a place where, anyway, it's called alt control.org or alt control org. And they had a hundred tickets. They've sold them all out. And it seems to be a place where people are gonna be going to raise alternative ways. To the, way that WordPress has been doing things in the more recent past.

I'm not entirely sure what's going on. I think it's gonna be one of these events a bit like press conf, where the hope would be that if you go, you have the, you have that kind of what's said in the room, stays in the room kind of mentality. I don't know that's true. Maybe that's not the, way that they're pitching it, but it, felt like that from the bits and pieces that I picked up.

so hopefully if you are going, you'll be able to get something out of it. But, yeah, I'm sure it'll be, fascinating to see what people are doing. I don't know if anybody in this arena, Remus or Tim, wanna tell us if they're going or not. Maybe that's something you don't wanna share.

And everybody's scratching their heads. Oh,

[01:05:00] Tim Nash: I'm not going to Word can Europe.

[01:05:02] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, okay. But you are going to this. Nice, thanks. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:05:07] Tim Nash: I genuinely at one point pondered it. I, when it was very early on, there was some discussions and it was, but I, yeah, I think if you, it is designed as an add-on to Word Camp.

They, are half expecting you to be an attendee or at least there's to be a follow on to it. but it looks, it looked like a fun event.

[01:05:30] Remkus de Vries: You're muted there, Nathan.

[01:05:31] Tim Nash: We've just turned Nathan off.

[01:05:32] Nathan Wrigley: It's just, no, sorry.

[01:05:33] Tim Nash: Easier this way.

[01:05:34] Nathan Wrigley: I did that. 'cause when I eat my Chris, it's very loud and nobody wants to hear that, so I muted it then I forgot to unmute it.

That's, thanks. but the, oh no, I'm choking. But the, I think it ends it, this event is in the evening only, so When the regular sessions end at the regular work, it's

[01:05:54] Tim Nash: five till 10 o'clock at night.

[01:05:56] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. And I think it's five minute walk away or something like that. okay.

[01:06:00] Tim Nash: I'm going.

[01:06:00] Remkus de Vries: Okay.

[01:06:01] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. So Remkus is going okay. Okay, there we go. So that's that. But you can't get any tickets. Maybe there's a wait list or something, but it seems to, there is be sold out right? very quickly. Really, very quickly. 'cause we're gonna run out of time. Otherwise, post status. So post status has now been taken over by, Yost and Marika Vander Act.

I dunno if there's more people involved, to be honest in the background there, but those are the two names that I'm familiar with. they've taken WP speakers over, from Michelle Ette. They, it's a website you can go to and, find out who is available to speak in the WordPress word, world. I dunno where this fits into the broader plan for post status.

But, anyway, that's now been taken over, so congratulations to Michelle for moving that one on. What else have we got? This is interesting. How do you say this? goda God am

[01:06:57] Tim Nash: go DAM.

[01:06:58] Nathan Wrigley: Goda. What do you think? Goda? I think it is. What, would goda mean? is there Go

[01:07:04] Tim Nash: Digital assets management. Oh yeah, of course.

That's

[01:07:07] Remkus de Vries: actually what it means. No, I think I had a name first and then made up an acronym. Yeah.

[01:07:14] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Why not? Yep. This, this comes out of Ourt Camp, which is an Indi Indian development company who have been con contributing a ton of time to the WordPress project. I, just thought I'd raise it. It's curious if you, if you want your media library to be a little bit more than it is already.

One of the things that they mentioned right at the start, so I feel it's like the MVP for this product is that if you are creating video content, you can upload it and then pick your CDN of choice. I think it defaults to Bonnie CDN, if you've heard of that one. it's pretty cheap is my understanding, for the amount of data that you pass through it.

But what it'll do is it'll take your video and it will then transcode it into all the different assorted types. Seven 20 P, 10 80 P, 1440 and so on. there thereby, when you go to YouTube, you can click that little quality icon and that doesn't happen by accident. There's not some magic going on the fly.

Google has transcoded it into different, separate versions of the video. So this brings that capability into your media library. You can see a picture there, but also this would be quite good for marketers. You can put, call to actions and things overlaid onto the top of your videos. I dunno, you've got a new plugin, I don't know, some sort of image generation plugin, something like that, let's say.

And, and you wanna demonstrate, hey, buy now, get 20% off and what have you. You can do that as well. what else? and then they've got, the usual assortment of bits and pieces in the media library where you can get statistics and what have you. Brand new product. That's me doing the short version.

Anybody wanna comment? If not, I will move on.

That's a no. That's a big fat, no. Okay. Fine. what have I got next? No, not that one. New product. Another new product. This is for, this is Adam Prizer, who I, don't know, many, years ago he had this giant YouTube channel. What was it called? I. WP Crafter, that was it. WP Crafter, I think he stepped away from making so many YouTube videos now because he's moved into products, he's got cart flows and a bunch of others.

The name escapes me anyway. There's a new one in the, in the list of products that he's responsible for, and it is called Modern Cart. And, I think the upsell here is basically, it's a shopping cart in a sidebar, but the idea would be that you bind it to your, WooCommerce store, and you can also do little things like, what do they call it, like upsells at the cart page.

So instead of it, so the little sidebar swoops in, and before somebody clicks by now and what have you, it just inserts little extra bits and pieces into the sidebar. So it's their take on it. A checkout in a sidebar, basically. And again, I'm gonna ask, does anybody want to comment on that? And

[01:10:05] Tim Nash: I'm just trying to not comment about the debug code that's left on the page.

[01:10:09] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, say more? Same. Oh, is that at the top left?

[01:10:12] Tim Nash: The top left,

[01:10:12] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Oh, what Tim Nash? She's got his BDI. What? Did anybody else see that, or was it just Tim?

[01:10:20] Remkus de Vries: What happens if you refresh? No, I saw it. I was, literally gonna say, just being

[01:10:24] Nathan Wrigley: polite about it.

[01:10:25] Remkus de Vries: Yeah.

[01:10:25] Nathan Wrigley: If I refresh, it's still right there.

Awesome. What, okay, Tim, with your story branding on, what is that telling you? Go on.

[01:10:33] Tim Nash: nothing, it just tells me at some point someone's echoed out to, yeah. Your, where it is at the top of the page probably means that it's being echoed out before the headers, so the headers are probably all slightly screwed as well.

but yeah, it's, just debug. Everybody does it. It's just a. Bit of a, oops, when it's still on. Hopefully that page is hugely cached and therefore it's just the cache. And when they flush their cache, they'll get rid of it.

[01:11:01] Nathan Wrigley: I don't know if it, binds onto their cart flows product, the one that they've already got.

But, anyway, there it is. Go check it out. You can see that for yourself. However, I'm racing to get to this one 'cause I think this'll be an interesting one. Again, caveat, I don't use AI very much, but I managed to sit through this video, with great, I lack this one up actually. It's Elliot Richmond, who is a UK developer and manufacturer of high quality pizzas, I think it turns out as well.

And he is, he's made a video, about looking at the experimental feature. API. As soon as things like that exit my mouth, I realize I'm totally above my pay grade. So I want somebody else to tell me what the experimental feature API is and how it works. I watched Elliot's video. It was very entertaining, but I, I don't, I'm not really the person to talk about it.

I'm gonna guess it's either Mku or Corey or Tim that can take this anybody. Er, anybody? No, you are just being mean now, aren't you? The three of you, you've reached some sort of, have you been in the private chat? Say, we're not gonna talk anymore. you can go check it out. Basically, it's, it's,

[01:12:13] Remkus de Vries: I, Tim, it's cashed.

If you look at, if you cash bus, the URL, the, oh, we're

[01:12:19] Nathan Wrigley: back to the, we're back to the I

[01:12:21] Remkus de Vries: had to know. I had to know.

[01:12:22] Nathan Wrigley: Okay.

[01:12:26] Remkus de Vries: feature API is a very interesting thing. It, I, think it's very tough to summarize it. I think this is a good example of, you need to go into the, the library on GitHub.

Check it out, read up on it, what it does. But it's a, it's, it has a huge potential.

[01:12:46] Nathan Wrigley: He has this sort of chat interface where he, can get out of the WordPress website. it's, we're used to that kind of content creation thing, make me an image and then go, wow. And it creates you the image or make me some text and we go, wow.

And it makes you some text. This seemed like a bit more of a conversation with your website along the lines of, what's my website site name? Yeah. What's my, how many posts have I got,

[01:13:11] Remkus de Vries: you can talk to your site essentially, right? Yeah. and then, but that's, even, that is a very limited way of, explaining what it does.

Yeah. This, is a good example where people should just. check it out, play with it. 'cause it's, wild what you can do with it.

[01:13:28] Nathan Wrigley: And also I would like to point out that, Elliot spends an inordinate amount of time making his videos look really good. This one is called The Future of AI plus the plus symbol WordPress.

A look at the Experimental Features api, it's about 25 minutes. If no, it's not even, what am I talking? It's eight minutes. so it's pretty quick to consume, but, you'll learn, a lot. It's really interesting. Okay, if that's the case, shall we move on? Where are we now? as I said at the beginning, I don't really use a, I much, sorry, I don't use AI all that much.

But, this person does. Jonathan Williams. I caught sight of this. This is the, the lengths that somebody will go to in order to try and make AI spit out something coherent. Is this how it works? When you go to an ai, do you have to always preface everything with a ton of stuff like this? So on the screen is tons of text.

For example, this is the prompt. You wanna get something out of an AI and you want it to be correct, accurate, robust, what have you. In the WordPress way. Here's the prompt. You are an expert WordPress developer. You are all up to date on WordPress best practices and coding standards. You write complete and working WordPress code, including custom plugins.

You use WordPress best practices in all provided code. When asked to provide code, you do not include placeholders. Instead you provide complete copy and paste ready solutions. And then there's more. Coding instructions. I won't read it. Does that work?

[01:14:57] Corey Maass: recording? Yeah. I was just gonna point out this is, this looks very similar to, so for cursor, the VS.

Code fork, that has AI tightly embedded. if you go to cursor directory, there is. People have uploaded their own sets of essentially this, real high level, that, and like I've pulled up one that I think I'm using that starts with you are an expert in WordPress, PHP and related develop development technologies, and then key principles, right?

Concise technical code follow WordPress coding standards, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's meant to be you. at least in something like cursor, you can set rules that you don't have to paste every time or even paste the first time. That's just always sitting in your project settings or in your app settings.

High level. I see. Yeah. So if, you're in VS.

[01:15:59] Nathan Wrigley: Code, the environment. It's like that's in the background. This is metadata, which is understood the exchange between you and the ai. This is always the context of that. Okay.

[01:16:08] Remkus de Vries: Sorry, Rick Chat. DPT also has a, two options you can, fill out and have this be running for every single thing you do in chat GPT.

but to, answer your question, is this how it's done? Yes. And I would even argue this is a light version,

[01:16:26] Nathan Wrigley: so there's more you could be much more thorough. Okay. Okay.

[01:16:32] Remkus de Vries: I, actually think you should be. I think it's a good start, but, this is high leveling over how you would like the, the end result.

But, if, when you start diving into the specificity that you actually would like to see and for it to follow, then I think this is, a good start, but this should be elaborated quite a bit.

[01:16:56] Nathan Wrigley: That's so

[01:16:57] Corey Maass: curious. and, you grow. I'll jump in once in a while and add more rules to it as, as makes sense.

If I notice patterns, I'm often doing WordPress and React, and so I also, I've got WordPress E rules, but I've also got React rules. and it'll often want to add a new library instead of using one I've already got installed or something like that. Or, there are rules about, do not, just make up hooks inside WordPress, make sure they actually exist and you can actually link to the documentation and stuff like that.

So you can take this pretty far. And when you do

[01:17:39] Nathan Wrigley: this, again, I'm not experienced with this. When you do this, does it reliably, excuse me, stick to the instructions that you've put in there, or does it, still hallucinate around?

[01:17:51] Remkus de Vries: This is why you want to use as much prompting as you can possibly, get out of your keyboard.

There, there's, and even so when you are, when you've covered something, From four or five different angles for it to specifically do. You still cannot rely on it to actually do it because it depends on how the sentence is written. it, you just cannot assume it actually still does it, but it ha, the more you use here, let's say you use four times what you see here, it has a much higher chance of actually doing what you wanted to do than what you see here.

[01:18:30] Corey Maass: Gosh, that's, and so there, there are two things I wanna bring up. One is, E expounding on what Remus said. I'm now seeing a lot of people that are using ais against each other in a, good way. where you would take this, you would dump it into, one, I guess it could even be multiple layers of the same ai, but chat GPT and say.

Claude wrote this, limited thing, show up, Claude, write it, make it four times longer, full, but full of value kind of thing. And then drag that back into Claude and go chat. GPT wrote this, but it's messy. Tighten it up and you can actually like back and forth. Ideally you would still go in and, pull out any chuff.

but it's, you, can, you don't have to write the four times the rules, or even go find them. AI on AI is yielding pretty good results for a lot of people. That's fascinating. the other thing that I wanna bring up, 'cause I've had this conversation twice in the last week that I took for granted, but hadn't really thought through.

And so I feel like this is a good spot with nine minutes left and 10 more links to cover. is traditionally you had. The, proverbial and not proverbial 10 x coder, the programmer who was just exceptionally good at writing code. and the stereotype at least is inversely that person was often not good at speaking English to other human beings.

And then you've got people who are not native English speakers, and or who struggle with language construction in general do.dot. We, I realized now more and more what we're talking about and exactly what Remkus said, like it depends on how you structure these sentences, the words you use, the level of detail.

It relies on an unbelievably sophisticated depth of English language construction. In order to get,

[01:20:47] Nathan Wrigley: oh, okay,

[01:20:47] Corey Maass: better and better code based on better and better language that we're putting in there. and I was like, oh, thank goodness that I'm a mediocre developer, but I'm really good at talking because I now have a huge advantage over I.

Some of, the other developers who I've met along the way.

[01:21:06] Nathan Wrigley: I keep hearing this thing that, if you basically get yourself good in this universe of prompting, then you are lining yourself up very well for the future. And anybody that is not doing that is obviously, gonna be, they're gonna have an Achilles heel and find it harder to, to gain work and all of that in the future.

Yeah.

[01:21:25] Remkus de Vries: It, all breaks down. How well can you express what you want?

[01:21:29] Nathan Wrigley: Does it not infuriate you all this though? Is that in the same way that code when it went wrong was infuriating? finding it debugging. I mean

[01:21:38] Remkus de Vries: at, times in moments. But the more you learn, okay, this approach doesn't work, let me try another one.

You'll find ones that work and you remember those, you. Paste that in your, PKM somewhere your notes, and you'll start building from that. It's, you learn as you go, as it learns, as it goes. And the fun thing is the, logic, the engines behind it, the models it uses, they keep improving.

it is fun. Like, Tamara just said, it's, in the comments, it's exciting and it's fun. It is. 'cause you can see is, oh, I'm wasting, I'm, wasting 15, 20, maybe 30 minutes into writing the perfect prompt and then. 10 minutes into, refining it and all that. The end result may be you spent a full hour trying to get a solution, but that solution, if you started writing it from scratch or whatever, would've cost you maybe a day.

yeah. The better, you become, the more sense it makes go. okay.

[01:22:39] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. Plus all the years it took you to get to the point where, you could actually begin writing the code as well. Yeah, Of course. That's the curious, that seems to be where the excitement is out in the wider world.

Is just that novice to something, thing. the fact that people who've got no experience with any kind of code Yeah. Can produce something you would hope for their own personal use only. Not maybe trying to pitch it as a SAS app or have you. But, yeah. Fascinating. Tammy, I can see that you're making loads of comments.

I'm really sorry, with the time that we got left available. not gonna get too many of them back on, but let me see if I can put a few of them on something. Probably about the last one. Good one. Oh, is it okay? this one? No, that's, oh no, that's James. Apologies. This one. I brewed. Okay. So Tammy, I brewed.

Oh, interesting. Okay. We're into the language of brewing. I brewed three apps into prototypes this weekend and found out one idea was worth it. Wouldn't have done that with an ai. Did it have anything to do with making, making websites appear faster? That's what I want to know. Tammy, if you weren't here at the beginning, you won't get that.

Sorry. what else have we got? They've already begun moving. I, for some reason can't shut. Yeah, I can now. They've already begun moving, removing the prompting classes and certificates from the colleges that started offering them. AI will write the prompt for you. Yeah. Are their thoughts. Oh, interesting.

Okay.

[01:24:08] Remkus de Vries: The funny thing is you can ask it, this is my prompt. What is missing? And it will tell you. The very obvious things it's missing or the refinement it needs. It's not still, it's still not gonna be perfect, but it's just funny how it works.

[01:24:22] Nathan Wrigley: you all seem to be having a really fun time with it.

That's the bit that I'm missing out on is the, just the, fun that, and I suppose it's more fun. We're scared to say

[01:24:30] Corey Maass: otherwise because the robots will rise up and tell us that. Yeah.

[01:24:34] Nathan Wrigley: The but the, other thing is you've, you know what it's like not to be able to do this. Yeah. And so it's genuinely interesting to see how quickly you can get over the hurdles that you know exists.

Yeah. Whereas my like 16-year-old son, if he were to get into this. There wouldn't really be that thing. So I, don't know quite how curious it would be. There'll just be an expectation that I'll speak into this thing and it'll achieve this thing for me and it won't be, wow. Look what that can do. But

[01:25:01] Tim Nash: even, I have a relatively, young ard and they will, they now code as they, we've been, they were taught to code using Scratch and then onto Python, and now they're using chat EBT in cursor more, more just and they do it through a much more natural language process.

If I told them, Hey, look at this big prompt, they'd look at that and go. you don't need that. What are you doing that for? They, and they'll just chat away. Yeah. and get the result they want. 'cause they, because they believe that failure is a reasonable thing to happen and that then you iterate on it.

And when you get stuck in a loop, they just discard the whole conversation and start a new one up and go that way. And now that, that from a developer's personality is very hard to do this idea that, we want to scope everything out. So we want them to generate the, these mythical one shots.

And then there is allowed to be refinement, but it should be minimal refinement. And that's a mentality coming from a developer rather than someone who's just intuitively using this for the first time. So we're, while we've got all the advantages of. The languages and how things should be structured and all that background that we possess, that's also baggage at the same time.

And that someone who comes along and goes, thank me. Do I wanted to do this, and I want kittens flying around on the screen. It's okay, you could have kittens flying around on the screen. They're also where it's really terrifying. 'cause

[01:26:33] Nathan Wrigley: I, want kittens flying around on the screen. That's gonna be, if somebody can just make that happen now, that would be great.

Thank you. there is

[01:26:39] Tim Nash: at least several scripts, there's no doubt. Computer downstairs with kittens flying around on the screen

[01:26:44] Nathan Wrigley: with three minutes left or whatever. Tammy's cut us up nicely because we're gonna miss a bunch of stories and just quickly sweep into the last one. she says, yes, AI refines your prompts.

If you have a solid conversation, it will even do figma and user flows for you, but it won't get the perfect shaping op. and that leads us nicely to the whole Figma thing. I dunno if you saw, but in the last number of days, I'm gonna say 10 days or something, this happened, Figma, which is a tool, obviously Tammy's using it.

I, think it's fair to say it's become like the defacto. Tool for many designers. Again, I don't use it, I don't know, but I hear the name all the time. they have launched a product called Figma Sites whereby you can turn your Figma designs in their UI and it will turn it into a website with, no interaction with code whatsoever.

And, apparently, the UI is quite clever. It's really interesting. however, there was a fairly, I'm gonna say tsunami. There was a tsunami of people in the, web development space who immediately, aimed their targets at the code, quick view source only to realize it was.

Mental for want of a better word. there was all sorts of people. So anyway, there's the post you can see about it's happening. And then in the WordPress space, we had Adrian Roselli leading with this. Do not publish your designs on the web with Figma sites. You can find out more. I'll link to that. Joe Dolson, who we mentioned earlier, this is wow, the true path to garbage code Figma sites.

And I dunno if you've come across this chap, Kevin Powell, but a real heavy hitter in the sort of W three C kind of H-T-M-L-C-S-S space. Figma sites is worse than you might have thought. And I watched his stuff for a few minutes. There are just these like literally bizarre moments where a heading is the last letter of a heading.

Is in a span all of its own. Yeah, Like just the final letter. And it just that's deliberate. Somebody did that on purpose. Anyway, the takeaway is if, certainly from an accessibility point of view, and if you don't want your code to be cluttered, and I guess mkas coming all the way back around to optimization, apparently Figma sites have not done a great job out of the gate.

[01:29:05] Remkus de Vries: no. it's horrible output and it's diffs and spans everywhere.

[01:29:10] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[01:29:10] Remkus de Vries: That said, you can, I can't say the word, use, but you can On this all you like. but I know Yeah. This is the first iteration. Yeah. And look at what AI did, two years ago. Yeah. So project that in two years, they're not, dumb at, Figma.

They know what they're doing, but I. Apparently not fully yet on this. So it's, it, is a matter of time and waiting.

[01:29:38] Nathan Wrigley: You can imagine that with the, kind of subscriber base that they've got fairly deep pockets. These kind of things are music in their ears when somebody The same goes

[01:29:46] Remkus de Vries: for Canva.

yeah. those are site builder sites. Now, whether you like it or not,

[01:29:52] Nathan Wrigley: but just imagine the amount of free feedback they just got from people outraged. Oh yeah. just like tons of user feedback and, freely given hour long videos from people saying, this is wrong, this, and I imagine they back to the drawing board.

Yeah. Say

[01:30:05] Corey Maass: again? The, guy I met with over the weekend who's launching a pepper sauce business Doesn't care. No. Does

[01:30:12] Nathan Wrigley: not care. Yeah.

[01:30:14] Corey Maass: And, a few extra divs on his brochure site isn't gonna kill him.

[01:30:19] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[01:30:20] Corey Maass: Probably not even hurt him.

[01:30:22] Nathan Wrigley: That's true. Okay, we'll, we, yeah, I mean it, it would be nice to think that they got it right out the day.

divs

[01:30:28] Tim Nash: don't kill people. Tables do. Oh,

[01:30:31] Nathan Wrigley: there you go. That's gotta be the name of this episode. Can you remember that, Tim? Because we're, we've already overrun. divs don't kill people tables. They really did back in the day. Do you remember trying to line things up with tables? Man, that was just pure agony, but it was the only way of doing it, right?

We're done. That is it. I'm sorry. We had a load more that we were gonna talk about, but we got down a rabbit hole at the very beginning. it is. With regret that I say to, oh, I'm gonna get this so wrong. No, I'm not kure over there. it's not easy. Corey Maass over there and, yeah, go on.

That's fun. I like this. We should do this every time. And Tim Nash over there. Do you know what else I could do to really mess things up? I can do this, but I never do what I can. You now, let's see what happens here, right? Let's just play with this for a couple of seconds. so first of all, we're gonna say goodbye to Remkus de Vries.

You go point quickly now. Everybody go on. I've got him. He's right there. No. Yeah. Okay. And to Tim Nash and to Corey Maass. Look at me hedging my bets and to, and, to me, just me as well. And, let's put everybody right there. See if, who gets to win. It's Corey who's winning in this particular event.

There we go. I, was first to show up, so you were, that's how it, I'm not ready

[01:31:55] Remkus de Vries: for this mayhem.

[01:31:57] Nathan Wrigley: No, exactly. Oh, this platform's great. You could do it this way instead. How about that? maybe a bit of this fancy. See that?

[01:32:04] Remkus de Vries: No, I like, I look, good in a bubble.

[01:32:07] Nathan Wrigley: You look good. Okay, let's go with the bubbles.

Let's end it like that. In which case, I'm gonna ask all of the people to wave in a circle. This time that'll be different. Let's see if we can do it. Thank you to you guys. If you are watching and leaving comments, I really appreciate it. We will be back hopefully next week. All things being equal.

[01:32:24] Remkus de Vries: It was a futon great stream.

Oh,

[01:32:26] Nathan Wrigley: you never gonna give that up, are you? I've given that away for free to the world. See you guys later. And if you three guys just wanna hang out for a minute, we'll have a chat. Thanks for watching. See you soon. Bye bye. Bye bye.