This Week in WordPress #294

[00:00:04] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this week in WordPress episode number entitled, Palinopsia, revise your notion of reality. It was recorded on Monday the 22nd of April, 2024.

My name's Nathan Wrigley and I'll be joined today by three fabulous guests. I'm joined by Paul Halfpenny by Piccia Neri and Tim Nash.

It's a WordPress podcast, so we do talk a little bit about WordPress.

We talk about how much faster WordPress has become in recent versions. And we talk about the fact that wouldn't it be nice to have some sort of grid implementation in WordPress core? What might that look like?

The page builder summit is back. Version 7.0, you can subscribe now, to get your free ticket.

A new survey is trying to find out about the equality of gender in the WordPress business space.

There's a whole bunch of forum updates, in terms of the way that they look. And some other WordPress properties have been updated as well.

We talk about the fact of in-person events coming back, especially the WordPress London meetup.

And we also spend a really long time talking about light and dark mode.

It's all coming up next, on this week in WordPress.

This episode of the WP Builds podcast is brought to you by GoDaddy Pro, the home of manage WordPress hosting that includes free domain SSL and 24 7 support. Bundle that with the hub by GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients and get 30% of new purchases. Find out more at go.me/wpbuilds.

And by Weglot. Weglot, the easiest way to translate your WordPress website. The Weglot translation plugin gives you a reliable and easy way to make your WordPress website multilingual in minutes. No coding required and no developer time needed. Find out more at weglot.com.

It is this week in WordPress. It's episode number 294. As you can see, I'm joined by, three fabulous people. I got to say a big thank you to two of our guests in particular. 'cause they stepped in at like the 11th hour. we had a little bit of, what was that TV show in the uk? Was it celebrity, squares or something where all the guests would move about halfway through the show.

And yeah, it's a little bit like that. We had people shuffling about a little bit. So thank you for stepping in and, and helping me out. I do appreciate it. But who have we got this week? we're joined, over there by Paul Half. Penny, how are you, Paul? Paul's still on mute. He's either on mute or the platform.

He was on mute. Okay. I know I was on mute

[00:03:05] Paul Halfpenny: very well. Thank you. Yeah, good. Just back from holiday in. Ooh, in, Singapore and Malaysia had a wonderful time. Did got sunburnt like a proper British person. Nice. yeah, I really enjoyed

[00:03:17] Nathan Wrigley: that. Oh, lovely. Oh, that, I'm very jealous. Paul is the CTO at filter and he's also the founder of Personalized wp, which is a new plugin actually to personalize your WordPress website.

Go check it out. Personalize with a Z or A ZZ wp. is it.com personalized wp.com? It's do com. Absolutely. Go check it out that you think we can link to that in the show notes. I would've thought, also by Peacher Peach. How you doing Peach? I'm very well, thank you very much. Yeah, good, Peach, is one of the people that stepped in. so appreciate that very much. Peach Neri is a UX and accessible design lead. She's also a consultant, speaker and instructor. We've got a few bits and pieces that Peach wants to share at the end of the show. Some of the bits and pieces that she is working on, courses and so on.

So we'll stick around to the end and we will, make sure that they get mentioned and stepping in right at the 11th hour. In fact, kinda stepping out and stepping in. there was quite a lot of in and out shake it all about, this week it's Tim Nash. Hello Tim. Hello. Nice to have you. The, the technology dislikes Tim this week.

He's got a better camera, but the technology will not allow him. to deploy the better camera. So you've got the slightly grainy version. I know

[00:04:38] Tim Nash: I look very, you all, you are all popping and I'm like really flat. Like it doesn't matter how much lighting you put on it, it's like flat.

[00:04:47] Nathan Wrigley: I shall file a support ticket with the platform, and I'm not sure that they'll fix it, but you never know.

We live in Hope. Tim is a WordPress security consultant and professional. Love this professional Doom speaker and now Fancy Pants YouTuber. He is a Fancy Pants YouTuber, I'll tell you about that in a second. As such, he is legally required to disclose. He is a YouTuber to everyone repeatedly. You put a lot of effort into that video that you released last week or the week before or whenever it was.

So bravo for that. I bet there was a lot to learn right?

[00:05:24] Tim Nash: yes. so I'd done a couple of like similar-ish videos. I did one for, es last year. but yes, there, this was a, there was a lot of hours put into it. Video takes lots of retakes, and that in fact was the, version that you saw of me was filmed in October last year to give you an idea.

And I, I redid it in like February, and I screwed up. I, was like, I have an hour. I'm gonna do this. And I got home and looked at the footage and went, oh, you could see the teleprompter. Oh, so bad at this.

[00:06:03] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, no. you, can actually see the words going off. Yeah. You got the angle wrong.

[00:06:10] Tim Nash: Yeah. lots to learn, but really enjoying it.

Got another video coming out soon.

[00:06:17] Nathan Wrigley: Video is unforgiving. if you make a mistake, you really have to do redo it. Whereas with audio, you can just stop and just carry on and then just delete that little bit and nobody's, any the wiser, but with all the sort of chopping, chopping and changing if you move, and suddenly everything jitters looks really weird.

anyway, that's our little panel today. a few bits of housekeeping just before we begin. I don't think that we're going out on Facebook anymore. Bravo Facebook, by the way to, spoil a platform. until today actually, we've been able to go live via the Facebook API that these platforms all use into Facebook groups and things like that, but they decided to kill it.

As of midnight last night, and there you go. I guess they're trying to wall that all off. I think you can still go out to Facebook pages. So a few of the bits and pieces I'm gonna say might not quite be fitting, but we'll see. if you are on a Facebook property and somehow the API has actually rolled over, then you'll need to go to face, wave video slash lives slash Facebook.

Sorry, peach, sorry, Tim, whose places have been ruined by the caption. in order for us to see who you are, the, honestly the best place to send everybody it. We do this the same time every week. 2:00 PM UK time. Just send them here. WP Builds.com/live. Over there, you'll be able to log to some, YouTube comments.

And, in order to do that, you need a Google account, obviously, so do that. Alternatively, if you don't wanna be logged into anything, actually at the top right of the, is that the top right? Anyway, the top right of the video, is a little black box entitled Live Chat, and you can drop your messages in there and you don't need to be logged into anything, you can remain anonymous or what have you.

please share that if you're watching WP Builds.com/live. And we've got a few little comments coming in. Let's have a look. See what, who said what, firstly Peach. There she is, making a comment and it worked. Hello, indeed. Cameron Jones joining us from Australia. Good evening, anyone? Is that the new music I hear?

no, it's not. It, it was an accident. I made it on that Suno app and then, press the wrong button. So I should delete it for next time. It is funny though, I do love that kind of stuff. Peter, as always joins us from Connecticut, where it's seven degrees centigrade, 45 degrees Fahrenheit. Gives us the weather.

Each week we had overnight frost warnings. So cover those seedlings. Okay? Cover those seedlings. Could be this week's episode title. already writing it down, cover those seedlings. but if you guys, if the three of you hear a better thing that somebody says or mentions. Write it down and and we'll have a discussion after this episode has finished.

Courtney's joining us. It was just below freezing when I woke up today grabbing my second cup of coffee. Hi friends. Aw, that's nice Cameron. Again. I can see it's live on the Facebook page and in the group. Okay, so they lied to us. Cameron, not only did they take, say that they were gonna take away the API, they lied.

Either that or the platforms have figured out a workaround in like the last, what, 14 hours or so. Apparently they were all gonna try and do that. As soon as the, as soon as it was deprecated that API, apparently all the platforms are just geared up to, to figure out how to break it and work around it.

So you never know. They might have done it. Hello from Maryland, says Jamie. Nice to have you with us. Andrew Tate is in, it's not the Andrew Tate that we're used to hearing from on the news. it says Hi from Darb. I guess Daab leads uk. I dunno where Darb is. Drab. Oh, drab. He meant to say hi there from drab uk.

It's, it's not that nice here. I can't actually see the window anymore because I'm sporting a giant page builder Summit Sign more on that in a bit, but, let's get into it. Can we please keep the comments, comment? It does liven up the show. If you've got something you wanna say, something you want to add, something you want to throw at us, contradict us.

Whatever it is that you want to do, stick it in the comments. Keep it clean. It's a child friendly show, but no children watch, that would be insane. but let's get into it, shall we? Okay. Couple of bits of self-promotion. The first thing to say is this is our website, WP Builds.com. As you can see, we are proudly sponsored by GoDaddy Pro and by Welo.

Thank you to both of those companies for helping us keep. The light's on. If you wanna subscribe to our newsletter, put your email address in there and we'll send you two emails a week. Typically, we've got something a bit different coming up this week. One thing that we've got is we've got an activity pub, rundown, a, a demo of the activity pub plugin in WordPress with the developer Mattias Fle.

He, he was taken on by automatic couple, I don't know, probably 18 months ago or something like that when Mastodon and everything was taking off when Elon Musk took over Twitter. this page is slash schedule WP Builds.com/schedule, and if you click on that, you'll be able to add it to your, calendar of choice.

Okay. Very nice. Yeah, it's good, isn't it? It's a nice little plugin. Yeah. This is, this calendar plugin is, oh, it's called PI Calendar. It's by the developer, one of the developers of oxygen, and, Jonathan Jernigan, it was Elijah Mills and Jonathan J. It's dead simple, super simple plugin that basically displays your posts and pages as calendar events, which is really nice.

Yeah, so there you go. Another thing to mention is I've started another podcast, it's not started. I'm on week, we're on week eight now, so we've been doing it for three or four months or something. And it's called the No Script Show. And this week we got into the meets meat and the bones of designing an effective homepage.

It was interesting actually, I've never done this exercise before. Me and David got on the screens and just batted left and right, what we thought the this website should look like. It's intentionally rubbish so that we can improve it over time and claim that we're actually doing work.

but it was genuinely quite interesting. and if you click on, the episode, you'll be able to get to the latest one. And that was it there, number eight. And you can see like the sort of Figma designs that we. Through together to see what the website might end up looking like. It was good. It was good fun.

Anyway, no script show and I apologize. Last bit of promotion. Page builder summit. All right. Woo back from the 20th to the 24th of May. If you fancy being a part of that, join the wait list, stick your email in there and we'll keep you up to date. It's a free event. You can watch the presentations for 48 hours after they go live, but that just enables us to keep you, updated.

So stick your email address in there and if you fancy being a sponsor, we've got tier ranging from 250 bucks called a micro sponsor right up to a few of the biggest sponsorship levels as well. If you click on the little link there, takes you to our sponsor page. I'm sorry there was so much self-promotion in there, but it just is a confluence of stuff happening in my life at the moment.

Okay, there we go. Alrighty, let's get into the meat and the bones of it. this post came from Felix s Felix is on the WordPress performance team, who I think probably it's fair to say, have been around now for getting on for a couple of years, something along those lines and done really great work.

Or at least from my perspective, I think they've done really great work, in speeding up WordPress. So this article is just a summation of the work that has been done over the last period of time since that team came into existence. And it's pretty brilliant, I think, really. So it talks about the fact that, WordPress, big platform, massive reach needs to be fast.

There's loads of competitors coming to e. WordPress is launch. And so here we are. Here's some of the top level statistics which Felix felt like he wanted to say. Since WordPress 6.3, there's been enhancements to image loading, which in some cases can result in up to 21%, speed up in load time for images, especially with a hero image.

6.5 introduced a more, a more efficient translation engine, I should say. All of these are linked, so you can go and find the original articles. WordPress 6.5 also included several performances for optimizing the block editor, and they claim it means that. The block editor is five times faster if you are in the process of typing things and two times faster when you load.

It did tend to drag a little bit when you loaded it, especially if it had loads of blocks and data in there. So that's nice. And there's also a load of different initiatives outside of the block editor and WordPress itself, actually. The software of WordPress, and that's things like automated tooling so that, so that people who are creating their own products can actually, pull against performance data and things like that.

And last, but by no means Oh yeah, which includes the plugin checker. So if you're a plugin developer, you can check your code to see if it's performant. And last, but by no means least the interactivity. API most recently came out in 6.5, which, makes things a lot faster, especially if you've got interactive elements on your website.

So I just thought that was a nice little article summing things up. As always, the floor is now open. Just chime in whenever you feel necessary.

[00:15:50] Paul Halfpenny: Celebrate your wins. Yeah. I think that's one thing we're always really bad at internally is celebrating our wins. you're so focused on what's coming next, so actually you don't celebrate it.

And I think it's a really good example of going back and celebrating the good work that's been done.

[00:16:03] Nathan Wrigley: So I'm, we don't, we just don't have time, do we? We're in that kind of industry where everything is constantly, we're like the horizon thing. It's what's coming, what are we doing? What's the next thing to ship?

And sometimes, like you say, it's actually really nice just to go back and say, actually we, did pretty good, a good thing. yeah. Nice.

[00:16:22] Tim Nash: It's very easy for us to not realize how much of an impact those changes are having, because most people be watching this. There's a reasonable chance you are involved in WordPress.

You probably pick your plugins very carefully. You probably do things to speed up your website and optimize it. So for you, you might not see the same sort of benefits that somebody who is just fresh to the project would just install and go, oh. This is snappy, this feels cool, this is working. and you can't underplay how significant that is when you are, in a world where, yeah, someone might go off to Squarespace or Wix or whatever.

and actually having just played with a couple of those, services,

[00:17:04] Paul Halfpenny: they're slow.

[00:17:05] Tim Nash: Oh, really? Huh? They're not an amazing interfacing, having very much, over the last few months, all I hear is oh yeah, you should go to, these, other services are so much better.

They're gonna, they're with, they're gonna catch up with WordPress, they're gonna overtake and it's

[00:17:23] Paul Halfpenny: They're

[00:17:24] Tim Nash: not

[00:17:24] Paul Halfpenny: really that much

[00:17:25] Tim Nash: faster and what they produce is certainly not better. it is really good though that we celebrate these things and show that progress is being made. 'cause otherwise I think there's a perception that the world is catching up.

[00:17:39] Nathan Wrigley: I think it's so easy to butcher your own WordPress website though, isn't it? In terms of, just assuming that because plugins are there, there's no hit. especially if you're a novice. And you haven't spent any time in the community, you might chop 50 different plugins in and then suddenly you're faced with this.

Actually, this whole thing is just a mess. It's really slow. It takes me 20 seconds to load a page to edit and all of that kind of thing. And yeah, so little improvements. Slow. they're not little. Some of these are pretty dramatic, improvements over time, so the kids don't wait, do they?

[00:18:09] Paul Halfpenny: So Yeah. Oh, we're used to weighing, I still remember dial up modems. It's or loading to my spectrum game, taking five minutes alone and then, breaking halfway through, and you're oh, just try it again. Kiss. Can I ask you a

[00:18:25] Nathan Wrigley: question, Paul?

[00:18:26] Paul Halfpenny: Did you ever

[00:18:27] Nathan Wrigley: try to. Make a spectrum game load by using your mouth.

Did you ever go? No. No. Is that No? Sounds weird. I totally, I did. It didn't work. Needless to say, no. The disappointment of getting to the end of a nine minute cassette tape game and then something goes wrong at the 11th hour and the tape gets jammed or something and the whole

[00:18:54] Tim Nash: thing. I'm still traumatized from playing the Hobbit on the BBCB and, I'd got the, it was multiple tapes and my last tape was corrupted.

So I never know how it finishes. and it's, I, to the point that I was at a car boot sale, like we're still years ago, 'cause obviously you don't find these car boot sales anymore, but years ago and I found a copy of somebody had the tapes and I was like, I'm gonna get this and I've got a still got A-P-B-C-B in the attic.

And I got home and then none of the tapes would play.

[00:19:32] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, no kidding. It was trouble

[00:19:34] Tim Nash: destruction.

[00:19:36] Nathan Wrigley: The, the joy of having tapes. I actually discovered a box in the attic about six months ago full of tapes, cassette tapes, albums like Morillion going back into the day. and, and I realized I have no mechanism to play them.

I've got no technology in my house to play them. And my wife, yes, yesterday ordered a CD and it arrived yesterday and I said to her, what are you gonna play it on? And it turns out the only thing that we can play it on is a is in the car. We can't go to the car to listen to the cd, which I just thought was absolutely hysterical.

Anyway, you are right in the sense that, we have become incredibly obsessed with speed. it frustrates me. I. Endlessly. If I'm browsing somewhere and I have to wait for three seconds, I see that as just almost like sacrilege. And so these improvements are helping satisfy our desire to be unnecessarily fast.

[00:20:37] Piccia Neri: Do you know

[00:20:38] Nathan Wrigley: life is instant?

[00:20:40] Piccia Neri: Do you know, Nathan, that as we get older, time does go by faster? So when I was at a, UX conference in, actually it's a more, it's, a conference called Beyond Tele Run in Berlin in September. And one of the talks was by someone who does a woman, she's called Tammy.

I can't remember because I'm old, but whatever. Tammy, I'll find her because she was absolutely great. Loved her talk. And it, she, works in a web optimization and the whole talk was about. Time and the way we perceive it and how incredibly important a factor speed is way more than we think.

As did we have this conversation already, Nathan? no, I agree. No, it is your memory. Yeah. so it was, it was mind blowing on a number of levels, but also it really made me think, okay, you have to take that it's serious and really makes a difference. The second, more or less makes a real difference.

And she was saying, it was so funny, she was saying that now that they, you can use measure, what's it called? Units of measurement, Uhhuh and her family. A unit of measurement is a Sharon. So if the kids My Sharon The Kings song. yeah. To keep the kids. Okay. In the car, they say, how far is it?

It's like it's only seven Sharons. Oh, I see. Yeah. time

[00:22:18] Nathan Wrigley: over. Do you have to play? So yeah.

[00:22:21] Piccia Neri: Anyways, so I slightly digress 'cause I thought that was so funny. No, that's great. But however, speed is much more a factor than some of us think. maybe most of you, you were, you maybe you're all thinking no.

I always knew that I didn't quite as much. And also she really explained how the older you are, the faster time actually does go by. Your

[00:22:46] Nathan Wrigley: perceptive. If you can dig that out, I'd be really interested in reading that.

[00:22:50] Piccia Neri: Oh yeah. It's great. She's, yeah. The talk is, is online on the Beyond Tele around website.

I'm fine. Okay.

[00:22:55] Nathan Wrigley: if you paste that into the chat, I'd be really happy about that. It's to do, it's to do with the frame rate

[00:23:00] Paul Halfpenny: of your eyes. Apparently. That's,

[00:23:03] Piccia Neri: yeah. Okay.

[00:23:05] Paul Halfpenny: you do less frames when you're older, so you time goes faster.

[00:23:10] Piccia Neri: it's

[00:23:10] Paul Halfpenny: just, apparently sounds

[00:23:12] Tim Nash: an awful lot like an excuse to be honest.

Yeah. My free rate's merch. Oh, merch. That's

[00:23:19] Nathan Wrigley: right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, glitching. I'm glitching. I can't take it in the, okay. So that's really interesting. But I do have the perception though that my children, their tolerance for things on the internet. is far less than mine. if things aren't snappy because they have no, they have a complete expectation, then everything will be more or less instant.

And so WordPress needs to be that software for the next generation of children. we need to be catering for the 15, 16 year olds out there who are gonna be coming through. who in, I, I don't quite know what the data is, but it feels to me like that might be another challenge that WordPress is gonna face, getting the, the in air quotes children, and teenagers on board in the future.

But the, that team, great article, just summing up and pat themselves on the back for a job well done. So yeah, thank you for that. We seem to have had a few comments, people saying hello and things like that. Thank you Lawrence for saying hello Peter. he's obviously also used the PI calendar plugin and he says working on improving accessibility.

Yeah, I sent him a few things that I thought would be nice. Ah, Tammy, she always wanted a spectrum. You had an acorn electron. I got a spectrum. And then my mate got a Commodore 64 and I was like, what? Mine doesn't do more than two colors in one little icon. Icon at the same time. I was very jealous.

You don't

[00:24:40] Paul Halfpenny: need more than two colors, mate. You

[00:24:41] Nathan Wrigley: don't need I had to, it's all about

[00:24:44] Paul Halfpenny: the playability, about the colors.

[00:24:47] Nathan Wrigley: It's a settle for that as well. Oh, how it annoyed me though. Wheel of Fortune for the win. I don't know what that one is. Tammy, was that a spectrum game? Maybe it was. and I'm guessing this is you, Paul.

Surely, if not, you'll be one of the team. Oh, okay. so somebody from, Paul's team filter, is saying, we've blown on cartridges before, but I've never heard of vocal encouragement. what was that in relation to? I think that's

[00:25:12] Paul Halfpenny: relation to another comment about.

[00:25:15] Piccia Neri: To getting the game started, I think.

Oh,

[00:25:19] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Maybe. I was trying to get Yeah, Me's trying to sing the game. spectrum 48 K. Yeah. Lawrence had one of those, I think had one with the rubber buttons first. Yeah. Me. It was like a. Like a small bread board or something like that. And then I upgraded to one with the plastic bonds.

Yeah, that was a 1 2 8. no, there no

[00:25:37] Paul Halfpenny: Spectrum. 48 K plus had the plus. Oh, really? There was that. Okay. Oh, because I had the

[00:25:42] Nathan Wrigley: plus fish. Leonardo, I couldn't afford the, plus I had to wait several years, but I did have a little printer and it had, it was literally toilet roll size. Yeah, no, and it, yeah, it burnt the paper.

The paper was like this special silver paper, which was more, more costly than unicorn's blood. And, and it would burn it. And so every time you printed something, the whole house, smelled of burning something. yeah, it was incredibly inefficient. okay, so there's loads of comments about computers and stuff.

Sorry. There's a myth about licking Nintendo cartridges Two. I don't wanna know what does that even mean? lick or blow cartridges, blah. Write long car. So we're back to these singing. Sharons shnazzy says Long car rides with my 6-year-old are counted down in bluey episodes. A handy 10 minute increment.

Yeah. We used to, we used to sing to our children and it was the same sort of thing. One and a half Octa knots episodes we used to have. What the heck have we opened up for you? Tammy, indeed, your tolerance based on what you experienced, which you, and the way that you experience it. Okay. I'm, yeah. Silver Paper Lawrence, that was it. It was like the silver paper. and it was really expensive and yeah. Still remembers the smell. I wasn't making it up. It's true. All of it. All right. That was that article. Should we move on? We spent a good deal of time on that one. okay. Here we go.

So one of my pet things that I would love to get into WordPress, and I dunno how it's gonna be managed, would be some sort of grid, like grid system. Not a grid system, grid like, we've got flexbox kind of thing and all of that. It would be really nice to get grid in, but grid is a pretty mighty beast and you can do an awful lot with it.

And so we're on the lookout at the minute. Apparently, Estella Ruta has put an article out on the 9th of April asking for feedback for how that might be done in a block editor context, because if you think about it, I'm not gonna go into how to explain Grid. I don't have the mental capability to do it as much as anything else, but the options that are available in grid to layout complex layouts and have them collapse in all sorts of different ways and move around and are pretty amazing.

How would you surface that in like a UI where you've gotta click buttons and drag sliders and type in numbers for padding and margins and all that kind of stuff. And so there's an article here called The New Grid Experience Feedback Needed, where that's exactly what they're trying to figure out. what should be in the ui, what can we leave out, what must be put in.

And it says they're working towards creating grid items via clickable or draggable empty cells, dragging between grid cells, removing columns and row starts, and just changes the order of the grid items and dragging on cells to add columns and row starts and things like that. so basically this is me saying if you've got any intuition of how that might be achieved or if you've got any thoughts, please go there and, and shout your, thoughts into the, into the forum there, because I guess that would be quite important for me at least.

Anyway, grid is probably the, best way that we've got the minute of laying things out in complicated ways. Any thoughts on that from you? Three?

[00:29:12] Paul Halfpenny: It's a tough one, isn't it? the only thing that I will say about grid and content is that I know from lots of experience that people that are building websites, particularly clients of ours, want to choose what content is ordered in what way. So there'll always be a featured item and there'll always be, I want this pin to the top, and as long as it nailed that, it's all fine with me.

[00:29:36] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, Okay. So you could, in a sense, you could keep what we've got at the moment and that might be an adequate experience. Yeah. Okay. that's interesting feedback. all alone, isn't it? But for me it feels like

[00:29:47] Tim Nash: it's a, it is trying to solve two problems because what people actually want is front page, they basically want what you could do with tables 20 years ago.

Yeah. and, but obviously web developers don't want that and don't want all powered by tables behind the scenes, and they want more fine grain control. And these, feel like two completely conflicting things. And that maybe the answer is to give them two completely different solutions. So

[00:30:16] Nathan Wrigley: not a core thing, like an opt-in, maybe one of these canonical plugins or something where you could potentially, yeah,

[00:30:24] Tim Nash: because it just feels like this is not necessarily as cool and as important as I think it is for most web developers and designers doesn't necessarily make it an important thing for the average person who's going to be using the editor.

And

[00:30:39] Piccia Neri: I would love it. I would dear. Love to have that.

[00:30:44] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, so I think Tim got, 'cause I'm not a

[00:30:46] Piccia Neri: developer, so I completely understand Estella's point of view. 'cause I, correct me if Estella if you're watching, but I, as far as I remember, Estella is more of a designer than a developer. So that'd be me. So I use CSS grid in a be builder, I use a plugin, I use, I love it.

I love the way it makes my designs responsives and really responsive and really tight. 'cause coming from print, I really want predictable margins to stay where they are. I hate it when, so I love it. I love CSS grid, but it is a beast, as you were saying, Nathan. Perfect. And even making the plugins work actually requires, you really understanding.

Cs, you can't do it without any CSS. So

[00:31:32] Nathan Wrigley: actually maybe that's useful feedback for Estella there, because if it were, let's say it was a canonical plugin. So a canonical plugin is this kind of new idea of plugins, which will be supported. Oh, okay. as if they are core plugins. So they will be updated, they'll get security patches, so you can trust them, but they will not be a part of core.

So if you download WordPress from wordpress.org, it won't be in there. You'll have to go looking for it, but you can rely on it as if. It was a piece of core. Tammy posted

[00:32:01] Piccia Neri: something about that actually, Nathan, sorry to interrupt, but, it's relevant.

[00:32:05] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, okay. Thank you. Okay. So Ella is posting on behalf of a design team and a, PR for feedback.

What I'll do is, in the show, actually let me just go back to that page. I'll just pop it up there and you can see, where it is and what have you. So it's on make wordpress.org for i, I won't read it out, but yeah, you can see in the links here. We'll be, there you go. The PR is here. What's the, if you want to have a play and the article, if you Google this, it's by Esella oda, the new grid experience feedback needed.

It was published on the 9th of April. So anyway, so what I was just, and thank you Tammy, that's really helpful. I was saying that it may be one of those things where there's too much information for a typical user 'cause it is hard. To understand and if suddenly your design is behaving in a way that you didn't anticipate, 'cause it's not behaving like front page and oh, suddenly we're on a tablet and why has that gone up there?

that kind of thing. Then maybe that's interesting feedback. Get in there, peach say that thing. I would do

[00:33:10] Piccia Neri: that 'cause anyway. Great to have anyway. Yeah,

[00:33:15] Nathan Wrigley: it would be nice. Would be, I think it would be nice to have in core, but now that we've had that conversation, I was only thinking about it from my own perspective.

Now that the three of us have had that con or the four of us have had that conversation, it does make me feel that it's probably not needed in core. and it might be a bit of overlap. Oh. Unless it was a really simple. Implementation of grid. Now I'm getting carried away. but there's no such thing. I think that's exactly, I

[00:33:39] Tim Nash: don't think there is, there's way to make this simple.

[00:33:41] Piccia Neri: There is, I don't think there is a, an easy implementation.

[00:33:45] Nathan Wrigley: Patricia says she's already using, the grid block already. and she loves it. Okay. I don't, I'm not familiar with the capabilities of the grid block particularly, but, anyway. Okey doke. Let's move on. So this came my way, from Ray who, Ray Moray, who, makes the repository email.

By the way, the repository email comes out on a Friday. You've gotta sign up. It's so good. it really is genuinely brilliant. She make, puts a lot of effort into it. she sent me this, piece of information with a press release. So this is, coming out of the, now let me get this right. WP includes launches survey to explore gender equality in WordPress businesses.

And the idea here, and I'm just gonna quote from the pr from the, the press release, the gender equality in WordPress business survey will gain critical insight into the gender composition of leadership teams, the experience of women and gender diverse leaders and employees, and the challenges and barriers to their success.

And then it moves on to a quote from somebody called Siobhan McOwen, who is the founder of WP Includes. And it says, our hypothesis is that the WordPress business leadership, sorry, is that WordPress business leadership. Is generally male dominated. This is our experience from working within the ecosystem.

We want to both validate this and learn more about the experience of women and gender diverse individuals who are working in WordPress business, especially when it comes to support at work and opportunities for progression. I'm just gonna stick my neck out and say I suspect that hypothesis is entirely accurate, that it is in fact males that dominate the WordPress ecosystem at, certainly at the, the, sort of more senior levels in all the organizations, no matter where they are.

And this survey is trying to find out how that landscape looks. It's a fairly long one, so they're, not shy about it. They say it's a 15 to 20 minute one. sit down, grab a cup of tea and they also say, please do it in one sitting. 'cause the survey platform, which is SurveyMonkey, doesn't allow you to save.

In this particular case and come back later. So

[00:36:07] Piccia Neri: can I just say something about the survey when you're done? no. I,

[00:36:11] Nathan Wrigley: Amten done here. Interrupted you. Yep. No, Go.

[00:36:13] Piccia Neri: So I started this but didn't actually in the end do it because I couldn't, because it only is aimed at knowing what you're doing now. But what if you lost a job because of gender discrimination somehow, or for any other reason, but still have relevant information?

You know what you, if you're not, if you're not in the job anymore and say you work independently, you're not able to fill in the survey. 'cause it assumes that you are working for a WordPress business. But what about having, if you had a previous experience that is still totally relevant and would.

Give you a critical insight into the issue. You're not able to finish the survey. You can't do it.

[00:37:01] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. I confess. So that

[00:37:02] Piccia Neri: is a bit of a limitation. 'cause I really felt like, I was like, yes, I wanna respond to this. And, I wasn't able to do it because it's like, you are, you're not, you are asking, you are assuming, unless they don't want my experience.

'cause it could be that they don't, they're only really interested in people that have a job right now. But what about, but if the aim is to work out why women are not in a position of power within WordPress, here's what, here's a woman that isn't in a position power in WordPress and can't tell you anything about it because.

I don't have a job, and that's only for people that have a job. If it make, does it make sense what I'm trying to say? Yeah. So

[00:37:43] Nathan Wrigley: what, there's a field in the form, which is in inapplicable to you, and you can't advance all the que,

[00:37:48] Piccia Neri: most of the que I, had a look at it, so I can't tell you exactly what it, I, there was no point for me to go on because all of the questions assumed that you're in a job.

[00:37:58] Nathan Wrigley: So Interesting. I'm sure they'd love to hear that, actually. I'm sure they'd love to hear your experience about filling out the form. I actually

[00:38:05] Piccia Neri: thought about reaching out to other people that I know that are behind it, because the

[00:38:11] Nathan Wrigley: URL for this survey is, it's, I'm not even gonna try, but it's, it is a SurveyMonkey one, so it's surveymonkey.com/and then just pseudo random noise for 12, eight characters or something.

So I won't try reading out, but it'll be in the show notes. tomorrow. So you'll be able to click a link in the, either the email or on the WP Builds website, or maybe, I don't know, maybe SurveyMonkey gets scraped by Google, in which case you may be able to just Google that and see what comes up. Gender equality in WordPress Business Survey.

As you might imagine in the pr, the press release, keep wanting to say PR and then realize how confusing that will be. all data collected will be treated confidentially, aggregated and anonymized for the forthcoming report. The report will be made freely available to the public, and it does say this, the initiative, oh, no.

That doesn't apply. I thought it was an answer to some extent to your question, Peter, but, okay. Paul, Tim, anything on that before we move on? Off to you, Tim.

[00:39:09] Tim Nash: I was just gonna ask, are they looking, who are they looking for responses from? Because it's obviously very focused in what they are looking for in terms of answers, but they didn't seem to give any indication that they want you a broad spectrum of views.

It was who is the survey, who's meant to fill in the survey? I think that adds on speeches.

[00:39:33] Nathan Wrigley: I'm just trying to see if they address that in the press release. Not that particular thing. okay. Okay. Paul, anything before we move on?

[00:39:45] Paul Halfpenny: I, the only thing I really wanna say, like we, our leadership team, we have.

Two women and four men. I'm not sure I count though as a man, so I think it's probably quite equal, but I think, we try really hard, and we're not quite there yet. But I just wanna say that all the women in our team are absolutely amazing and we, we really love to have women in those roles and it's really important to get women in those roles.

So we specifically strive to get great women in.

[00:40:17] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So go figure out if the form fits you and obviously fill it out. And, and thank you to Ray for, for putting that in my direction. Like I said, the links will be in the show notes tomorrow, and you'll be able to go and complete that survey if it applies to you.

Okay.

[00:40:34] Tim Nash: Sorry, just looking at the fir first page of it, I don't think it is meant to apply to anybody other than somebody who identifies as a woman. Okay. There. At least that's how it's risk appears when I've going through. Yeah. Question specific.

[00:40:50] Piccia Neri: The thing is that the, what about if you used to work for a company that was 99% men led and you finally and so you have something in interesting to say on your experience there, but can't say it because, in that

[00:41:09] Nathan Wrigley: position, let, me read out because I actually do have an answer to that question in the press release.

It says, oh, okay, cool. We invite everyone, regardless of gender to join us in this important endeavor. So it may be that upon first reading that's not as clear as, it may be, but that's what it says. On the press release. So anyway, links in the show notes tomorrow. Go and help them out please. Okay.

Let us move on. This time we're gonna be talking about the removal of the non block editor. Is that what we call it? The non blocker? I thought it was the classic editor. but we'll go with non block. This is a post on the making.org. it's meta track.wordpress.org. and this ticket, the idea introduced by this ticket is that in the support forums for WordPress, the, apparently, so the person that's creating this ticket, I presume has access to data to back this up.

They say the vast majority of posts created in those support forums are made using the block editor. And so from that, this argument runs, I'd like to remove the an, the option. To opt out, as keeping the option only leads to extra code where bugs could hide. In other words, can we just have the block editor as the editing experience inside the forums, because that's what most people are using, however.

the post then generated a fair amount of commentary, not lows and lows, but certainly a fair amount. And so there's a few people in here who I've spoken to in the past. So for example, Joe Dolson is a, an accessibility advocate, and he essentially says, I think we need to wait. And then he tags in Alex, and Alex Stein is the, is one of the recipients of the WordPress Community Collective, grants, I want to say the grants is the wrong word, that kind of idea.

and he, is I think, entirely blind. So I think he's completely blind and he says he is not in favor of, I love this comment. This comment is so to the point. I'm not in favor of removing the non block editor at this time. Maybe when we get serious about accessibility here, it can be discussed in the future, but not until then.

and so obviously if somebody with Alex's experience of things like the forum, if he's saying, no, Can we wait, please? Maybe there's something to be said for that. Anyway, it was an interesting idea. Got raised. Lots and lots of different things came up. Lots of people concurring with Alex.

I don't have a strong intuition from my own experience. But obviously if people like Alex are saying that I'm gonna just defer entirely to their experience and say, let's just put that on hold because why would we wanna ostracize, people who, who require the old editor, maybe it's much, much, more straightforward for them to use Nathan.

no thank you Cameron. You've corrected me. Yeah, that's great. Not the classic editor in the front. The non block editor. Yeah. I, yeah. Thank you. You've corrected me. So let, just, let me just rephrase that. Cameron has written, it's not the classic editor, it's the non block editor, which is a plain text editor, not, not wissy wig.

Thank you, Cameron for clearing up. You know what, sometimes I say things because I'm thinking about all the different moving parts, and then I immediately think, and then I just think it's just easier to keep going. So thank you for correcting me, Cameron. That's brilliant. Any thoughts on that, ladies and gentlemen?

[00:44:44] Tim Nash: just to really hammer in that sort of bit, we're talking about the, if you go to wordpress.org and you go to the support forums, you create an account, you go to put a ticket in there. When you go to that ticket in, when you go to that forum and you do a new post on the forum. You're seeing Gutenberg experience.

Yeah. You can click a little thing to make it not the Gutenberg experience, but you get like this plain text and some bits like auto do markdown type things. Markdown

[00:45:12] Nathan Wrigley: was a thing, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. But

[00:45:14] Tim Nash: it's like there isn't any real markdown in there, but things like links will change from be converted.

if Alex says it's not ready and Alex can't use the forums and he is one of the key components of the accessibility team, this doesn't seem like a no brainer. I felt the la I really disliked some of the language that was used in those threads and it was a really good example of somebo, of somebody putting in a comment and then not listening to the, not perhaps they didn't realize who they were talking to, didn't just reacted quickly, whatever it was, but they didn't take the time to just go, hang on a minute.

Maybe I shouldn't reply back. Quite so passive aggressively. And I thought that the language generally in that thread was quite damning of certain people. And I thought that was the most upsetting thing because this is gonna happen over and over again. We're gonna have years of this. We, is it ready yet?

No, not yet. And it's gonna frustrate some people that they want to push it forward and they want it deployed everywhere, but it's not there for everybody yet. so

[00:46:26] Nathan Wrigley: Courtney, as always, very helpful. Thank you. She says in the comments, it does also indicate that in the profile settings, folks can toggle back to the non block editor by default For those that need it, however, it is apparent that it exists anywhere.

And she goes on to say, no one knows that it's an option. Of course, they aren't using the. Using the classic forum reply option and they dunno how to find it. Okay. So a little bit more context there. and then, just out the blue Patricia's commenting on, Cameron's lovely hair color, which is nice.

I think. more comments like that. Please. I too love your hair color in his little icon. He is got this fabulous blue hair. It really is blue. It's not like it's just blue, like really, blue. Cameron, I, fully endorse your hair color as well for what it's worth. Yeah. Anybody else on that then?

So my position, I think is the same as Tim's in the end, if in doubt, leave it alone because people are absolutely, and

[00:47:26] Piccia Neri: if in doubt, listen to Alex, who is a contributor, a very important contributor, as well as being someone who has to live through ableism, and the lack of accessibility in our world on a daily basis.

Just do without whatever he says. I would go with that.

[00:47:45] Paul Halfpenny: Okay.

[00:47:45] Nathan Wrigley: I would say Thank you so much, Paul. Shall we move on? Or,

[00:47:49] Paul Halfpenny: just, be better. just be better. Nice. You can well imagine a commercial platform taking that decision. there's no need to do that. Okay.

[00:48:00] Nathan Wrigley: Thanking you. Okay. We'll move on. As always, that link will be in the show notes if you wish to comment. it is however tagged with the number 7 5 9 3 over on Meta track do wordpress.org. So look for that ticket. Okie dokie. Okay. So a couple of new design things. I'd be interested, I think it's fair to say that Peacher has more design chops than I do.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have the design skills of a potato, And in fact, I would say that, I'm far inferior to a half decent potato. A King Edward, for example, is much, much better at design than I am

[00:48:39] Paul Halfpenny: and a potato without eyes. Yeah, no, I did that.

[00:48:45] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, here we go. two new things, for you to inspect. Firstly. The forums have had a bit of a refresh. So the, this is not a project, which is we've drawn a line. This is all done. This is just the beginnings of things. But in line with the new, I'm just gonna call it styling with the new brand that we've got in the WordPress space.

couple of things have been updated. This is the first one. And you can see a post by Nick Diego. He's got another one, which I'll show you in a minute about something else. And he's saying that, yeah, the, forums have been updated. in addition to standardizing the structure, font, spacing, and colors.

The forum's homepage now matches the layout of the newly designed developer resources. If you're looking at the screen, you can see a, selection of screenshots, but probably it's easier if I just go there. and one nice thing, which I thought didn't need to be included, but has been included is a little toggle at the top here.

So if for some reason this really jars with you and you don't like the look of it, you can put the old one back. Oh yeah.

[00:49:44] Piccia Neri: I like that.

[00:49:46] Nathan Wrigley: I'm immediately no switch back. 'cause that now looks, doesn't it? That looks like my Dr. Drupal days or something. I dunno what's going on there. but it definitely looks a little bit dated.

Isn't it funny how like six months ago that didn't look dated and now the minute that I see it compared to that, it really does look dated. And so the design goes a little bit deeper. So I don't know, let's just pick the, first one, installing WordPress. You can see there's a, sort of slightly broader design here, different color palette and what have you.

If you use the old way, you can see, it's obviously just a little bit narrow. perfectly usable in both cases, but that's how it now looks. And then if there's a

[00:50:25] Tim Nash: slight irony that we're all getting really excited about the little button that toggles between the old way and the new one.

yeah, Based on the previous conversation where we Yeah, that's

[00:50:33] Nathan Wrigley: right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. spotted. Nice bit of juxtaposition there. And then let me just go in one last thing. I'll just show this picture. So there's what a new actual. post looks if you like. And then if we look at the old one, that's what it's like.

I'm in favor. keep it. Love it. Well done Nick. And the team that were behind that Becher, sorry, I interrupted.

[00:50:56] Piccia Neri: Yeah, no, not at all. it, it looks so mouse better. I did exactly like you, I went on the page and then I used the toggle and I was like, I, it's like immediately back. So that's a good sign.

But one thing that I'm wondering and I'm really, it's like genuine question. I don't, I'm not sure what, 'cause one of the sort of basic rules of how to do links excessively is that anything that is a link must be underlined.

[00:51:26] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. So here we see it, right? That's underlined And they just

[00:51:28] Piccia Neri: are not they, but they're not, they are if you hover over them, but they're not underlined.

So I'm just wondering. Why that, oh, sorry. Picture, maybe there's someone,

[00:51:38] Nathan Wrigley: meaning that there is a, there's one link here which is underlined, but these, for example, these ones are underlined when you hover, but these don't get any of that treatment at all, do they? Interesting treatment.

[00:51:48] Piccia Neri: I don, I don't, I really would like to know, the reason that choice maybe it's still, 'cause another thing that I'm wondering is how diff if when you take the color out.

Whether the, that blue is that different from the, sort of black, I'm wondering, oh, if you were to juxtapose this blue

[00:52:12] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. In there.

[00:52:14] Piccia Neri: Dunno, that's, but it's like genuine question.

[00:52:18] Nathan Wrigley: The, article goes on to say, so it obviously gives those screenshots and just like I said, this is a, non-complete redesign.

there'll be work to be done, it's intended as a quick iteration and you can see that basically absolutely everything is in the same spot. the menu contains exactly the same items. The sidebar, I should say, contains the same items. So it is just a bit of a skin over the top, but I'll also throw this one into the mix.

So more or less the same treatment. Nick has been busy. Here's another article. The patent directory gets a refresh and he. Same treatment, the same layout. We get the images before and after. With this one, you can't toggle it backwards and forward. So when you go there, you are there. and it says with this update, the, so this is for the pattern directory.

it's now using a block child theme and which is sharing the wordpress.org parent theme, laying the groundwork for future improvements. The main changes were to convert everything to blocks and standardize the layout, typography and colors. Rosetta sites have also been updated to use the new design and the new theme also utilizes the interactivity, API, which we mentioned earlier.

so there's a little bit less JavaScript on the page 'cause they're using a, standard WordPress library. Now, again, it's not finished, but let's have a quick look at that and I can't show you what it used to look like. I'm at least I can't see a toggle at the outset. I was looking for one, but I couldn't see it.

But, maybe we're better with the screenshots. Here we go. There's the old versus the new. I'm not seeing so much of difference here. Obviously the images are a little bit more standardized, aren't they? But in that looks almost very, similar. And here there's a, it is, much more similar, I would say, than the previous one that we looked at.

But again, just making it so that it's consistent so that if you're sending your clients over to any wordpress.org property, at least it looks like WordPress rather than, what's this, what alternative are we looking at here? Anything on those two lovely things. Peach. I know you've had a, try, Tim, Paul, anything?

[00:54:23] Paul Halfpenny: No, I think, the standardization is great. It looks more professional. I think that clear, that's the focus. There's a lot more room to breathe. which is always important that the crampiness of the, old style always ah, like it, it does that to you where you give a bit more white space, you give a bit more room to breathe.

Everybody feels a bit calmer about things. Naturally, I think on the forums that there's something slightly lost with removing iconography in terms of quickly being able to see. Where you're at, I appreciate it's, mid revamp and it's not the full thing, but everything's given like an equal weighting perhaps in, in that forum.

And it's not quite as easy to see where you should be going. It's not intrinsically leading you towards the first, the right place. so I'd, like to see more of that. I'd like to see better use of search as well, like small search bar. So a bigger search bar. You look at a lot of plugin developer docs or knowledge bases, and just, SaaS platforms that have knowledge bases and things like that.

Actually, the way they approach, it's relatively consistent nowadays, and there's much more that we can do within that to, find the information more quickly, I think. So those are my thoughts, but mid revamp, that,

[00:55:35] Nathan Wrigley: that's where we are, right? Yeah. Yeah. Peter, just give us your expertise on this then.

So in an ideal world, what would be the, what would be a links status when it was inactive? so for example, installing WordPress, we should have that on line just right Uhhuh. Yeah. And then the hover state. So we've got this link, which is underlined, and then when we hover on it, the underline disappears and we get the, the icon of the little, hand.

Yeah. and then over here when we get the little hand icon. So we've got some indication that something's going on there, but is it the right thing to do to remove the underlining upon hover? I'm not putting you on the spot. So

[00:56:16] Piccia Neri: ideally, actually I'm, look, as I am talking, I'm looking, Anne Ved, who is a friend of this show and a, an accessibility specialist.

She has a whole article on links and I was looking for it. So in an ideal world, so as reference in an ideal world, they would be underlined and then there would be a hover effect as well. What I usually do to be on the safe side, is I, reverse it out. So if the link is, so you'd have a, black background and.

Bright, bright text, basically that's how I would do it. So that it's, there's a hover effect. So that what you do, so that it tells you that it's an interactive element, would this be, 'cause I haven't done it here, I'm wondering whether from because Yeah, sorry.

[00:57:09] Nathan Wrigley: I was just gonna say the link is on the whole container here, isn't it?

So we get that sort of graying effect, which I guess is indicative of something. Sure. But you, but if you go down here, for example, there's there's links which have got the, color, but they don't have that underlining. Okay. That's interesting. Thank you. 'cause

[00:57:25] Piccia Neri: there's also things that are not, so if you were to do a really basic automated text here, it gives you maybe one contrast issue, which is really not that much.

But there are things like, I find the type, especially the white and black for me, very thin and very small. But I would make it bigger. That's absolutely fine. But it's really. Quite thin. So it's more d anyway. yeah. No, I don't, I don't want it to sound, like a, criticism because I think this is a great, great improvement.

But pretty much all the things that Paul said is we're saying, this is a great start. Let's see where it goes. But you are right that the, those, in the grid, the whole block is a link. So that's, I think absolutely fine. 'cause it does have a hover effect. So that's, I think that's absolutely fine.

But I noticed that if you go into them, the links are not underlined.

[00:58:28] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Yeah. Especially these are all links that

[00:58:29] Piccia Neri: are not on the line. That's, yeah.

[00:58:31] Nathan Wrigley: There's a bit of a mixture, isn't there? Some of them are, some of them aren't. But like Nick said in his piece, it's a work in progress. let's see.

Exactly. It's where it goes. Yeah. Yeah. this is becoming this kind of look, this thin font with this sort of crif font in the, this seems to be just taken over. Not just, I don't mean WordPress, but the world. So many sites that I visit now, seem to have this look and feel to them.

It seems to be really, common. I, can't quite put my finger on it. Yeah. But

[00:59:01] Paul Halfpenny: that, that happens all the time. yeah. if you look back at about two or three years ago, everybody was using Circular as the, film. Yes. Everybody

[00:59:11] Piccia Neri: lore everywhere. Yeah.

[00:59:12] Paul Halfpenny: Yeah. And proNova before that, in every single deck that I ever saw.

it just happens.

[00:59:20] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. we follow the crowd, don't we? that's interesting. Okay. So links in the show notes. You can go and check those out, as and when you are ready. But I think nice, iterations. So Tammy Lister is in the comments. She's also on the screen checking out.

this is Tammy's, sorry, I was really over dramatic. That wasn't it. this is Tammy's website, or at least one of several, I would imagine. This is called Press Navigator. So P-R-E-S-S navigator.com. And, and I just thought, I like Tammy, and so why not promote the stuff that Tammy's got? So this is the website and I, it goes like this.

So she's written, keeping up with everything is a quest. Changes happen rapidly. The space is evolving, the wind's changing. Let me help you adapt. I can be your guide trainer or collaborator, which then links down to here. So Tammy is offering her services as a guide. and the guide plan is the idea is she's gonna help you focus with ad advice and assistance also as a trainer.

individual training or she can train the entire teams. Or a collaborator is a bit more like DIY will do, I'll do it with you. I can create with your team on a project, a product or with an individual. There's very, there's not many people that have been in the WordPress space as long as Tammy, I'm looking at you.

Tim, maybe you have, I don't. or maybe Paul, I don't, know. But Tammy's been around for ages, as you can see in the footer. she talks about her experience and what have you. So if you are in the niche of looking for a bit of WordPress help or you just wanna help Tammy out by sharing that link, you can do that press navigator.com.

[01:01:07] Tim Nash: Can I go one step further and say, if you are a web agency who maybe is using something like Elementor or you, running on an old version of Studio Press and you've been looking at doing things with the new block editor and you might have had a couple of goes, but you can't quite get your head around it and you know that this is the future and you want to spend a.

That time and effort to move yourself to the future, then I can't think of a better person to help you. and especially to train you and show you how to use the block editor. Tammy was instrumental in the original design of the block editor, so I can't think of anybody better.

[01:01:51] Nathan Wrigley: Transcribe that last minute, Tammy, and stick it on the website under the, name Doom speaker Tim Nash.

no, that's very positive, isn't it? and you're right. there's gonna be a niche of people who are just befuddled by WordPress and it's new interface and, they needed their team getting on, getting, onboarded quickly. So there you go. And you are welcome Tammy. She said thank you.

Of course. You're absolutely welcome. I noticed that somebody's put something in the private chat. I forgot I missed it. Apologies. It was way back. So that's all right. Yeah. Thank you. I missed that. Okay, let's move on then. So this is just a bit of a hat tip, to the London community. If you didn't know. the WordPress London Meetup, hashtag WP LDN.

you can find 'em at wpdn.uk. I think you actually have to put www, I'm sure it'll redirect, but nevertheless, it always ends up there. wpdn.uk, they have restarted in person events after a massive. Hiatus because of the pandemic. It started a couple of months ago and they have just onboarded site ground as a sponsor.

So I just want you to give Dan and Paul and anybody else that's involved in that, a bit of a hat tip, site ground. you know what they do? They're a hosting company, but they're also gonna be, trying to get bodies into the event to, oh, it says act, are gonna actively participate in the meet ups.

So I know that it's a struggle getting these events back up and running. We've got into that situation where we forgot they existed. We don't know what they're like. We remember that there was pizza, but apart from that, you might have forgotten how fun it was to get into a room with people. they're looking to swell the numbers.

So go to wpdn.uk. You can sign up as a speaker. If you feel like you wanna do that, but also you can just get your tickets to future events and get in a room with some people who are gonna nerd out about WordPress. I know Tim, you've been involved in the whole leads thing and I, dunno how that's going necessarily, but I'm sure you've experienced the same difficulty in making things real world Again,

[01:04:02] Tim Nash: it's horrifying.

It's this idea of trying to put people together in a space we leads is taking it very slowly. but, hopefully we'll have a back at a proper venue and have a speakers towards the end of the summer. At the moment, we're doing more informal meetups, but come the end of summer, the plan is to have speakers again and to rebuild.

Slowly but surely. And Shena had theirs Yes. Very less couple of weeks ago. Yeah. And, WordPress Northeast has been running apparently in secret mode. Yeah, that's right. World months.

[01:04:36] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. They ran these events, but just I didn't, I knew nothing about it. It's probably the, apart from le it's gonna be the closest one.

So you can see. Yeah. they ran a live one. The last one was, just a, few weeks ago, but they've got one on Thursday. Oh, sorry. Apologies. This Thursday. tickets are still available. I should have said that, that was silly of me. WordPress, London Meetup, April, 2024. it's, so it's this coming Thursday.

It's literally in a few days time. 25th. And this is interesting, right? The speaker lineup. They've got somebody from Amnesty International talking about the Amnesty International website. And it is really interesting what amnesty have open source. Around WordPress. WordPress is not their thing, but because they've opted to use WordPress, they've open sourced their theme and a whole bunch of other things that they've, done.

So anyway, if you're fancy going, go and get a ticket and, get yourself there. Back in the room. Back in the room. I think Brighton was back. Tammy says as well. Okay. Maybe it's not as bad as we thought. Maybe it's really thriving again and we're just too curmudgeonly to notice, but there we go.

Anybody want to chip in on that? I suspect not, but I'll crack on if not. Alrighty. Okay. I just wanted to raise this one, and I don't know Tim Paul in particular. you've got plugins and things. This one came up last week and Andrew Palmer dropped it on my lap with about five minutes before the show went live, so I didn't really have a chance to read it, and then I read it a little bit more carefully and man alive, this is generated.

Look at this. you don't often. Woohoo. Woohoo. The comments, what? A lot of comments. and this is, a sort of slightly, unexpected consequence of a recent update to WordPress. I could be getting this wrong if I do get this wrong. Somebody tell me often correct me like Cameron did a minute ago.

when WordPress 6.5 came around, there was a change in the way that, plugins once installed would, once you'd activated them, instead of going to a full page refresh, it now uses Ajax. So it just in the background, if you like, it updates and says, yeah, the plugins are ready to go. Before when there was a full page refresh that could be hooked into by developers to, to offer you something.

they could say, okay, let's. Take you over to a welcome screen or an onboarding wizard or something like that. So obviously this kind of breaks that functionality. I dunno how broken it is or if there's a way for developers to get around it. But, anyway, there's obviously a lot of, toing and froing people.

For example, Andrew Palmer made a comment in here and he's essentially, if I've paraphrased him I can't find his comment now. I think he's saying, can we just go back to how it was Please? Bertha is a plugin of his, maybe he's using an onboarding wizard to that and has found that it's broken and therefore, his customers are struggling.

But I dunno what your thoughts are. it was never intended that the page refresh would be hijacked to make onboarding wizards. But then once the onboarding wizards are a thing and everybody's been doing it for years, is that now a thing? To undo that thing is not a good idea. I don't know. Over to you.

Figure it out For me.

[01:07:55] Tim Nash: This is a really good example where you've got two completely conflicting sort of processes where someone's gone, I want to have this, so I can go through and go click, activating. And this, you can tell the person, when this ticket was originally put, they just installed WordPress, they put on all their favorite plugins and they were just activating it really quickly.

And you, I've done that. I'm sure everybody here has done that. And when you got, and so you just want to get that process going, but that's not what the average person does. They don't go and install 20 plugins. Simultaneously, they install a plugin at the time. And we have built in this onboarding process in many plugins, including plugins that are really, big like Yost and Woo Commerce.

And these aren't small little plugins who have just, oh, found an undocumented feature and are hijacking it. And they're using the correct filters and actions. They're not doing anything wrong. so it's a bit unfair to say, oh, they shouldn't be doing this 'cause that is the root, and they're meant to do this if they wish to hijack that url.

[01:09:11] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Yeah,

[01:09:12] Tim Nash: it feels like an unintended consequence. And of course the reaction would've perhaps been best to go, oops, let's revert this, or let's make this an option. But we don't like options because options are bad. They, we've gotta have decisions and then that. You get that thread with hundreds of responses.

I think it would be quite nice if you could actually, as a plugin developer, say, I have an onboarding wizard and we built a standardized flow for such things, but I also appreciate that is going to be complicated and, you can't deal with the existing ones who already have this problem. So it would be lovely to be able to have a hook that says, I'm going to, I'm going want to hijack this because I have an onboarding flow.

how feasible that is to implement though. Harder.

[01:10:04] Nathan Wrigley: Some of the comments that dropped into here were saying, can we not use? So we've got this idea. Who knows whether it'll ever cross the line, the, sort of admin notifications, idea of having a standardized way of having, excuse me, all the admin notifications, maybe that would be a place to, to tidy your order.

Do you know

[01:10:23] Tim Nash: how many years we've been trying some sort of notification? WordPress is

[01:10:28] Nathan Wrigley: nearly 21 and it's been going for at least 22 years as far as I can tell. Yeah. And, yeah, I, don't have the answer. I can see why a lot of people are upset. I can imagine if you are a company who really has a complicated product and it is just so expedient to drive people through your onboarding wizard and it really helps you as a company to, I don't know, minimize support requests and all of that kind of stuff.

Get your plugin set up. Yeah. This does seem a bit difficult to stomach. I don't know. I think

[01:11:00] Paul Halfpenny: we've got to the place where like plugins are much more complex than they used to be. And actually that onboarding's so important for a couple of reasons. Firstly, 'cause it's your first time to go and show people where they can access your plugin in.

The admin. Which is actually sometimes quite confusing 'cause plugins appear in all sorts of different places. actually taking 'em through that onboarding step, taking the details from the, you need to be able to set them up with the right preferences, with the right license keys, with the right settings in place.

And something like WOO is really important for doing that. and SIC again, is really important. I think this is a slight disaster to be honest. And like Tim says, I wish they'd just reverted it and gone. Actually, we just need to go away and think about this a bit more because this is gonna affect so many people.

and it's not just affecting the plugin developers of the plugin authors. It's affecting the users who then don't. Have that onboarding step and aren't taken through that process and then dunno what they're doing or don't know where to go and find something. So

[01:12:03] Nathan Wrigley: this is an interesting comment that I confess, I didn't see this escaped me.

So this is coming from Kevin Wman. and he's, I don't entirely know if he's employed by Yost or not. Apologies, Kevin, if in fact you are. But there's a sort of screenshot here, which I presume is a mock up. I dunno if this is how Yost actually works in at the moment. But, with just a whole load of different options next to the plugin.

So finish your first time configuration, FAQ settings, deactivate and troubleshoot all lined up next to each other. Is that kind of what you were talking about, Tim, where you could maybe even at the point where you're installing it, click install and run wizard or something

[01:12:47] Tim Nash: like that? Yeah, no, because, so tho those link action links have existed for many, years.

Yeah. And the fact that you are going. Oh, is that part of yo, is that in there? I think sums up how well action links work, in terms of drawing attention. Now, what I was saying was that you, the plugin itself should be able to say, I need to hijack this next step. I have a wizard, please process. Let me process the wizard.

Okay. I, don't think those sort of links do not work. Having people do not click on them. I, many, years ago when I used to, build a plugin, there was a commercial plugin. We did some monitoring of just to see if with, user testing of do people click these links. And most people didn't realize they were there.

And we included things through settings because we did something stupid and we put our plugin settings in the menu item in WordPress called Settings. We discovered that was a silly place to put it because nobody knew it was there. So we had to make it a top level menu. Now to try and get round that we tried giving you the settings in the plugin screen, it just didn't work.

[01:13:57] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it's

[01:13:58] Tim Nash: really, yeah. This is where we, this is the, so without that onboarding process, there is a reasonable chance if your plugin requires some configuration, it won't get configured and therefore it will break.

[01:14:12] Nathan Wrigley: That you've summed it up in one sentence there perfectly. If you've got a plugin and some plugins, let's be honest, are the equivalent of a heavyweight SaaS, they do hundreds of things for you, and if you don't get it set up at the beginning.

It's, not gonna work. And you're gonna feel like you've been ripped off on this thing that you've paid good money for or you maybe got for free. I don't know. it is not working as expected and it's on you to go through. Okay? So this is core track.wordpress.org, and then ticket, and it's 6 0 9 9 2 if you're listening on the audio, there's a lot of commentary and it hasn't dried up yet, shall we move on?

I know Time's kind of running out. Yeah. Okay. Let us move on. I'm gonna skip that one. I'm just gonna say happy birthday. Not, I don't even know if it's happy, but it's not Happy birthday I don't think. I just wanna mention that Beaver Builder have got a sale on, if you are looking for a page builder, if that's your thing, beaver Builder is 20% off at the moment.

it says Hurry sale end soon. I dunno when that is. But if you, is the natural

[01:15:17] Paul Halfpenny: sale or is it an awesome automotive sale? Oh, and they're not also automotive. Are they be potential? I know they're not, but I was just

[01:15:24] Nathan Wrigley: wondering if it's got an actual Oh, I see what you mean. no, I think this is actual, I think that is their actual price.

They're pretty, they're pretty straight up. They're pretty good. Yeah, they're pretty, straight, straight down the line. so I, think this is a, a quick thing, but I don't know exactly what the date is. So anyway, 20% off. If you fancy doing that, it's on the website. Just Google it and you'll find it.

So I got this the other day, A friend of mine, David Worsley sent me this and I, so this is nothing to do with WordPress at all. See what you think about this. Should the browser. Handle light and dark mode on websites. it's becoming an a, a real interesting feature of a lot of websites that they've got a toggle somewhere, typically top right.

Do you wanna be dark mode or light mode? I am increasingly dark mode everywhere, which I know to many people is just oh, for the love of Mullenweg. but I've just decided that's the way I want my screens to look. And now when I see a big white page, it freaks me out a bit. But this article is saying, what if the browser.

Took on that and there was some sort of, I don't know, in-browser experience where you told the browser, okay, remember my choices for this website? And obviously you'd have to build the website in a certain way that hooked in with that. But I just thought that was a really fascinating idea. The idea of letting the browser take that rather than each website builder having a different UI with a different toggle and a different part of the website that you may find or you may not find.

And so there you go. Now, in the old fashioned way of a university lecturer discuss, you've got 34 seconds to figure this out. does

[01:17:13] Paul Halfpenny: anybody want to change once you've made a decision whether you like dart mode or light mode, do you change on a per website basis? 'cause I think

[01:17:23] Nathan Wrigley: I think I would do you, which I do because

[01:17:27] Tim Nash: I, need to have high contrast.

so I use dark mode across, the board, but I do need to regularly change colors. Oh, quite a lot of, quite a lot of the dark mode, websites will use a color palette that I find incredibly difficult to read. Okay. But their light version is, slightly more readable, but I'll, nine times out 10 is just horrifying me burning my eyes.

so I do, I have a, a CSS grease Monkey script that basically turns the color palette into a more muted purples for, some dark sites. You've rolled your own

[01:18:09] Nathan Wrigley: neat as

[01:18:10] Tim Nash: a, I just have a little shortcut on my, that I run that just run basically runs a little bit of extra CSS to change the cut the pallet.

Okay. There are some things that, if

[01:18:21] Nathan Wrigley: it's a website, I want it dark, if it's possible to have it in dark, but, so this is weird, right? Why wouldn't I want Google Docs in dark? I don't know. 'cause I'm used to paper. Being white. And I don't even think Google Docs have got a dark mode to be honest.

But if they did implement that, I would immediately wanna switch it off and make it look like paper again, if And so I do. There are some things that I do flip between. Yeah. But maybe me and Tim are both weird, so I use mode. No one's weird dark mode.

[01:18:51] Piccia Neri: You need to revise your notion of normality.

Nathan. It doesn't exist. No. Weird. this is really quite interesting for me because I often think, so I basically, I, where to start with this one. 'cause it's of course what vast, topic for me. So I have slowly Trained myself to consider design on the web as something that needs to be usable by everyone.

That's what it is. So in terms of dark mode and light mode, the, if you want your website to be visible, and usable in both dark and light mode, that means that you have to really simplify the design massively. And in terms of, yeah, so I am not there yet. So my website, for instance, is half dark and half light.

So because this way I feel like I cater to white and I don't use white, obviously I don't use full white and I don't use full. It's almost white and almost black. It's never full white and full black. sorry, where do we start from? Oh, if the browser should always, should the browser. Should the browser.

So that's the thing. Okay. So that's the thing. So with a website that isn't quite, not every website is immediately translatable to that because what if you use a colorful background because, just because you like it, which we can agree that maybe is not the right criteria to build a website. If you wanna do something just because you like it, do something else.

Don't do a website. This is what I preach at the same time, so I'm arguing with myself. But my point is, the point is that there are two points. The one, one is that not all websites are equally visible, are, so easy to toggle, let's just say it's not a done thing. There's also, there are, images, even PNG images that would look great.

On a dark background, but don't make any sense or are not even visible against a white background, for instance. So if we go back to totally brucely design with nothing else other than what you need, then yes, we can, we could do that. But also in terms of, let's even assume that you can toggle, that every website is, makes sense in dark or light that every designer thinks in those terms.

And therefore your website can be toggled easily, but you still have different circumstances. I, for instance, I prefer the light mode, but maybe when I'm out and it's a really bright day, I can't do real light mode. I need dark mode. I don't, I can't have dark mode in the evening. Like Google Maps goes dark mode in the evening and I go, I can't see it.

I need dark mode in the daytime. So how do we, can we, customize and train the browser to do that or can we change it back? I don't think it's a yes or no or answer basically. I think there are still way too many variables to,

[01:22:08] Nathan Wrigley: yeah,

[01:22:10] Piccia Neri: I don't think we're there yet. I just like the

[01:22:12] Nathan Wrigley: idea in the same way that Mac os gives you the option to like basically skin everything dark mode or light mode or auto, which actually I think is what Courtney's saying here.

she has it so that at dos it goes into dark mode. See that's

[01:22:25] Paul Halfpenny: the, that's

[01:22:26] Nathan Wrigley: quite different. I'd have it the other way around. Yeah, I'd have it the other way around. but Courtney fair enough. but Mac OS tries to skin everything in the whole OS and sometimes it's a, some developer didn't quite figure that out and it's a bit of a mess, but I just thought that was a neat idea.

and. Who

[01:22:45] Paul Halfpenny: knows. I think it's better in the browser. Yes. Because you can remember it surely. And rather than every website and to do every website

[01:22:51] Nathan Wrigley: doing something. Rolling your own. Exactly. So dark mode apart, shnazzy. Hi there. Dark Mode is incompatible with some emails received in Gmail on mobile.

Oh, is it? Oh, emails in Gmail in dark mode, like 50% of everything is just not there. so if there are any incompatible issues with links or transparent text, yeah, so I completely get that. That makes sense. And then Reese win. Hello Reese. Samsung's main internet browser. Does programmatically try to apply dark mode?

It's terrible. We've stepped into a minefield here, haven't we? Oh no. I think it may be the minority. So Patricia says, I think I may be the minority here, but white text on a dark background equals after 10 seconds I get some retinal persistence. Ooh, that's great. So that's, can

[01:23:39] Piccia Neri: I, need to, interject here.

'cause Patricia, you're not the minority. me too. I get the same. And it's called opia. Basically it's a halluc. in my case, I have it really strong. So whatever I look at, I get retinal opposites. If I look at anything, whether it's bright or not, and I look somewhere else, I get the phantom image in my retina.

So that's how I live my life. I thought it was normal until. Until someone told me, an optician said, no, not normal. again, what is normal? That's my normality. there's no normal or not, it's a sad, that's, it's called opia.

[01:24:18] Nathan Wrigley: It's

[01:24:18] Piccia Neri: a sad day when you got the retinal persistence op. I was on the phone

[01:24:21] Nathan Wrigley: to a good friend of mine earlier today and he said, I will give you 10 million pounds if somebody says the word opia on your podcast today.

And I declined, I and I shoulda have taken from it.

[01:24:35] Paul Halfpenny: I get that with blind. I don't like do you get when you look at blinds? 'cause

[01:24:40] Piccia Neri: they're bright and I get it with anything, whether it's right or not right. I just, that's how I see phantom images everywhere.

[01:24:47] Nathan Wrigley: I know this is a bit like GCSE psychology, but I've, always like the, then just the notion that my green, so when I stare at a field full of grass, my green is, that I've always.

I've always found it fascinating that I have no expectation that your green looks anything like my green. Your green might be my purple. and how deep is that? I bet you all realize that when you're about three, but it still freaks me out that I have no idea what it is that you are seeing. I have a friend who, there's, I have several colors that he can't see and he sees them all as yellow.

So stuff that is this color that I distinctly see as different is always yellow for him. And that was quite a realization for him when he suddenly realized that a fairly older age, shall we say, somebody actually pointed out that something was different and he was like, what? No. Yeah, it took him years to get over that.

Anyway, I'm for the browser taking it on. Okay, let's move on quickly 'cause time is really running out. Pete, Tim, you're gonna have to come back and tell us why I. This article is nonsense. I'm so sorry. Do you feel cheated? Do you have a lot to, okay. Should we do it? Should we do it quickly? I, okay.

First of all, can I ask, do the three of you have anything, which means you can't overrun by five or 10 minutes?

[01:26:11] Paul Halfpenny: No, I.

[01:26:12] Nathan Wrigley: And are you happy to overrun by five or 10? The answer to that is also, no. No.

[01:26:20] Paul Halfpenny: I think Tim's getting ready to overrun by more than five or 10. yeah. Okay.

[01:26:24] Nathan Wrigley: So Tim, you'll have to do, you've got your drinks ready, right?

Have to do the excavated version because I came across this website, and it was said, it's called, it's by the new stack, or the news tech, I dunno. Which, why PHP use has declined by 40% in just over two years. And I la this up, I was like, oh, this is interesting. People are like this on the show thinking, look at that graph in particular, the precipitous drop here in PHP usage.

And then I showed it to Tim and he went, oh, it's. not accurate. He said other words, but not accurate. Sums it up. So is it not, is PHB not in decline? And I should say the reason this article's on this show is because they squarely point the target on Facebook. sorry. Facebook. On WordPress, they say that WordPress's move towards a much more JavaScript orientated platform.

is in many ways responsible. Tim Doom, sayer, doom, speaker, whatever it is. Put us straight. Tell us why this is nonsense.

[01:27:30] Tim Nash: as we know, WordPress has about 37% ish of the, websites in the top 100 million or whatever the statistic is, and it's been gradually increasing. Year on year and evens out there, every single one of those websites runs PHP.

[01:27:54] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, for God's sake. It's a maths thing, right? I get it. Yeah. Okay. we have,

[01:27:58] Tim Nash: we, if we are, if there was a 40, that means that there's a hundred percent drop in the other sites. Yeah. Okay. Drupal has gone, Magento has gone, oh, and Facebook disappeared overnight if we're doing it based on number of people.

The math doesn't, add up. But the thing that really wound me up in this article were the quotes about WordPress, where it's like WordPress has become JavaScript focused. Yeah, but it hasn't made the PHP go away.

[01:28:28] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that's right. Just gone.

[01:28:29] Tim Nash: Yeah. There is, yes, as a we, I think unfortunately, Matt's quote that he.

Put out a few years ago has done nothing but harm to, oh, was this

[01:28:42] Nathan Wrigley: the Learn JavaScript Deeply quote.

[01:28:44] Tim Nash: Yeah. And then the, and that we, that WordPress as JavaScript is now a JavaScript focus. And obviously he was trying to get people excited and engaged with the Gutenberg and the block editor. but the reality is that the core of WordPress is never going to become a node application lamp stacks that, so when you go and buy hosting, you set up a lamps stack, a Linux AP psp.

Now the Apache's gone mostly the, if you look to the statistics of Apache dropping off like a cliff Sure. Have you look at the STA that n Engine X is riding up on it. There are other HTP servers, MySQL CL disappears. You've got predominantly Maria db. there are MySQL clones. PHP. PHP sits there, it's been there, and it's going to continue to sit there.

Why do these statistics show things like this? Partly because people aren't reporting their PHP versions, because we've been telling them for years not to, partly because they're relying on, the, stack overflow statistics of popularity contests. And everybody wants to say that they program in rust, even though the number of rust developers in this world are about 10.

it's, and there's a, there is a bunch of people who are JavaScript developers who really would like to pretend that they have jobs and that they can, they are the people who you should spend lots and lots of money on. so there's a lot of people who's trying to sell you the dream of a JavaScript developer.

If you were a, getting into development today, that might be a good route for certain people. There is certainly a lot more JavaScripts in WordPress, but PHP is still the core thing. P WordPress will not run unless you have PHP. You can actually run WordPress without JavaScript.

[01:30:48] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[01:30:49] Tim Nash: Just

[01:30:50] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

It'd be fun. That'd be fun. That'd be fun. Experiment. Yeah. Yeah. But

[01:30:53] Tim Nash: you can't run it without PHP. Yes. I'm aware that some, very clever person put in a web assembly. Yep. Yeah. And did some fancy pants stuff over there. Yeah. But it barely works. And it was an experiment and it's still running PHP beyond the thing.

All of, so PHP cannot have dropped 40% mathematically. It's not by possible. This article was written by a ha, by a journalist who needed to have a nice sensationalist headline, but got a bunch of statistics together, borrowed one statistic from one thing, showed a pretty graphic of a massive drop off and went, look, it suckered me in

[01:31:29] Nathan Wrigley: that graph.

Had me, but it can't freaking out. If you

[01:31:31] Tim Nash: just stopped for two seconds and think about it. You go. We still have all these WordPress sites and they still run, and WordPress still runs PHP.

[01:31:42] Nathan Wrigley: This is my problem, Tim. I never stop for two seconds to think about it. Whatever it is, it's very rare that I stop and think about things.

However, Cameron does he, Cameron of the blue hair, who by the way is up at half past stupid o'clock. I dunno what time it is there, but it's not, clever. Cameron, go to bed. no, please don't. WordPress has much more JavaScript than before Guttenberg, but it is more PHP with each release too. How on earth could some, could someone, could come to that conclusion that it's WordPress doing is beyond any logic.

I think Tim has, sharing your intuitions, right? Peacha, you are gonna have to do this on I don't know. You're gonna have to take, get a helium balloon, right? Suck in all the helium. Then speak quickly, because Peach's got a little pitch that she wants to put to you and I, but we're running outta time so quickly.

So if you could do it in a high pitch voice at great speed, that would be comedy gold. Here we go. So what are we looking at here? The accessible typography masterclass.

[01:32:44] Piccia Neri: So I should have really thought about it beforehand, Denise and shouldn't I shoulda got Helium, which I dunno if but it's a finite resource.

[01:32:52] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, okay. I'm not actually advocating that. Did you use

[01:32:54] Piccia Neri: helium? Those at home

[01:32:56] Nathan Wrigley: don't take helium for comedy effect. Do not do it. Do not

[01:33:00] Piccia Neri: try this at home. So I teamed up with Jonah Toley, who is a. a UX legend. and, we are doing a, an accessible topography masterclass. what else to say?

That's it. Come do it.

[01:33:20] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, that was so neatly done. Okay, so I'll just paraphrase. you go to peach andary.com/each of these words is hyphenated accessible typography masterclass. I will put the link in the show notes. I should,

[01:33:35] Piccia Neri: yeah, I should actually do what you do and change the Ur L to a m And do I redirect?

Maybe I should do that.

[01:33:40] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, yeah, that would, a m is very

[01:33:42] Piccia Neri: remember. So starting. Is

[01:33:44] Tim Nash: it free? Is this what? It's not free. It's not,

[01:33:49] Piccia Neri: no, it's not actually free. Thank you, Tim. if you wanna click on what's included in masterclass Nathan, that will take you to I do want to click

[01:33:56] Nathan Wrigley: on that. That was literally what I was about to do.

Yeah. There you go. Yeah. That's what's included. that's,

[01:34:01] Piccia Neri: that's what's included. And why typography? Because. arguably 95% of the web is still typography and you can challenge me on that. Please do. I won't take you on up on the challenge 'cause I can't prove that figure. I no honesty

[01:34:18] Nathan Wrigley: picture. I think it's more like 94.7, something like that.

[01:34:21] Piccia Neri: I think you might be right. Yeah. Yeah, it's fine. And, everybody has to write on the web and you, in fact, this type, this masterclass is not even. Just for designers, it's for anybody who has to write anything on the web. And we touch on quite a few things that you might have not considered before, but that you will find very useful.

Link. So here we are,

[01:34:47] Nathan Wrigley: link in the show notes. If you add, hashtag n roll, you'll get straight to the, you get straight to the, what's in it page as well.

[01:34:57] Piccia Neri: Oh yeah, no, and you can't forget about the coupon. There's a special, oh, there's coupon.

[01:35:02] Nathan Wrigley: wait. There is a coupon there and I'm trying to find, where's the coupon gone.

It is ba It's WP Builds 13 1 3. WP Builds 13 is valid until the 25th of April. So if you're attending WordCamp London, you can just buy it while you're there. 'cause it'll still be valid when you're there. So that's two. Two things for you to do this week. Attend Word Camp London and buy a Peaches course with the coupon code.

And very quickly, because we really have overrun free accessibility Prime course, it's free. Here's a free thing. and again, I will link to this in the show notes. do you want to just describe it quick,

[01:35:44] Piccia Neri: It is just a exactly as it says on the tin. It's a really, it's a brief introduction to accessibility, clarifying a few basic concepts on what it is, who needs it, and so on.

Hint, we all do, with special attention to how it relates to typography. And it's totally for free. it's, the workshop is a workshop, so you will be more practical, but you can see whether, you like my delivery, you hate it, you can, Familiarize yourself with the way I teach with a free course and maybe learn something in the meantime,

[01:36:26] Nathan Wrigley: the, or maybe not.

Who knows? Let's hope that it's in the affirmative. I will put a link into the show notes for that as well. And thank you, like in a really interesting comment right at the end, Elliot Richmond. Hi Elliot. said, interestingly, the PHP you should easy for you to say, Nathan. The PHP usage stats pretty much mirror the global pan pandemic lockdowns.

Who knew? I didn't realize that PHP as a language could be on in a lockdown situation, but there you go. It apparently can. Thank you, Elliot. Appreciate that.

[01:37:03] Tim Nash: What's that? Maybe it's to do with the fact you can't sniff PHP properly. Oh,

[01:37:10] Nathan Wrigley: very good. Oh, that is the nerd joke I think of the entire series that we've ever episode 294. That was plumbing great depths. Very good. I like that. okay, first of all, I'd like to thank my three guests, thanks to Paul half Penny. Thank you to Ary and thanks to Tim Nash and also thanks to the Wide Odyssey.

They're all over the place, aren't they? For everywhere on the globe. people coming into drop in comments, really appreciate it. Thank you very much. it's all a conspiracy says re I agree. And on that bombshell, we're gonna do the slightly humiliating hand wave of joy just before we end the episode.

And look that, look, everybody's so willing to put themselves up for this humiliating. And do we have an

[01:37:55] Piccia Neri: option?

[01:37:55] Nathan Wrigley: you could just refuse and. I dunno what I'd do in that case. I'd probably just get Photoshop out, give you massive huns like that or something. That would be fun. Thank you so much for watching.

We'll be back next week with some different guests and yeah, take no book peaches course go on everyone. Oh yeah. And don't forget to book peaches. Course Thank you. In which case, I am outta here. See you next week. Take it easy. Bye.