This Week in WordPress #282

[00:00:04] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this week in WordPress episode number 282 entitled standing on the shoulders of giant mice. It was recorded on January the 15th, 2024. My name's Nathan Wrigley and I'll be joined by three fine people today. First up is our cohost this week, that is Jess Frick. I'm also joined by Tim Nash and Paul Halfpenny.

It's a WordPress podcast. So guess what, we're going to talk about WordPress. First of all, we have quite a long discussion about the year in core in 2023, we look into which parts of the world contributed, which countries contributed, which countries also had the highest representation of employees and sponsors and all of that kind of stuff.

And then we move on to the WordPress accessibility day. They've already started requesting team members. So you can get signed up for that. Meetup, the organization which runs all of the the booking, and the calendars and lots of the organization behind the WordPress meetups that has been taken over by a company called bending spoons. What does that mean? We'll talk about that.

Global sponsors have been announced. There's several new ones in this tranche. But they're all going to be helping the WordPress project in the year 2024. The plugin review team, we have a discussion about the fact that in the year 2024, they're trying to reduce the amount of time it takes to get your plugin into the WordPress repo.

Kinsta have a new rebrand. It puts WordPress back in the picture for that company. But it's quite an interesting design as you will be able to hear.

Pascal Birchler and I did a podcast over on WP Tavern and we discuss his new and really seemingly amazing contributions to getting images updated and uploaded into different from formats. And that's all happening inside of the block editor.

We also talk about security. Tim lays out some security things, best practices for you.

And finally we talk about, well accessible farting. There's no other way to describe it. It's all coming up next on this week in WordPress.

This episode of the WP Builds podcast is brought to you by GoDaddy Pro, the home of manage WordPress hosting that includes free domain, SSL, and 24 7 support. Bundle that with The Hub by GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients and get 30% of new purchases. Find out more at Go me. Forward slash WP Builds.

Hey, hello. I'm in a ridiculous mood today. I don't know why, but I am, and I just had some fire bricks delivered whilst the, commercial little interlude was going on there. So I'm a happy man. I now have fire bricks. It's minus ridiculous in the uk. I want my fire lit. What is a fire brick? Oh, okay.

So I've got a log burning stove and the, little bricks which protect the outer casing. they snapped, they broke, they got too hot. I like it hot. And and so we got 'em replaced, but they arrived just now and I was bricking it in K. Oh, see what I did there? Oh, that was so good. Oh, Tim's shaking his head.

I was nervous that it was gonna be arriving when we were in the show. Anyway, that's apropos of absolutely nothing. This is this week in WordPress where we talk about fire bricks and U2. It seems. I'm joined by three guests. Today by firstly, and I keep getting picked up on this, we have these co-hosts.

We have these people who come back time and time again, and I keep talking about them as guests because I forget. And so I'm going to be very mindful of getting it right. So firstly, Jess Frick, who is joining us today for the, I don't know, for, I think it's hundredth time or something like that. Something like that.

Yeah. Give or take. It's quite a bit. But Jess, Jess is the director of operations for Pressable. She's an ice tea connoisseur, a proud member of the post status and WP Minute communities. And as we've just found out a. Novice Firebrick user. But, yes.

[00:04:20] Jess Frick: I'm American, but I'm willing to learn.

[00:04:21] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

thank, you. I'm not sure that one implies the other, does it?

[00:04:26] Jess Frick: Firebrick isn't really like a term that we use

[00:04:28] Nathan Wrigley: here. Oh, okay. Okay. All right. maybe it's, I don't know. thank you. I really appreciate you joining us today. down there we've got, sir Tim Nash. How are you doing, Tim?

I'm sure I haven't

[00:04:43] Tim Nash: been knighted yet. It's still

[00:04:45] Nathan Wrigley: time. Tim's been on many, times before. He's a security. what are you, 'cause your bio says bio coming soon if you hit refresh. Oh, really? Is it that simple? Okay. It says, okay, great. Yeah, Tim is a WordPress. Look. Look how the internet works.

That's brilliant. I didn't know you could do that. Tim is a WordPress security consultant and a professional. This is great. A professional doom speaker who is available to help secure your sites. He even promises not to sigh too often. Is the termination when fixing people's sites to sigh a lot then when you see what is to you a rookie error?

[00:05:28] Tim Nash: No, I try not to sigh. people have this perception that, 'cause I do primarily do site reviews. People have this perception that I'm a sit there and just be there going,

[00:05:39] Nathan Wrigley: yeah.

[00:05:45] Tim Nash: I just wanna help people. So I try not to say, I try not to, I try not to leave them in a position where they're feeling bad, because all people, even if it's a mistake, everybody makes, everybody's making it for a

[00:05:56] Nathan Wrigley: reason. Yeah. that's true. Do you ever sit there with your fingers? like that sort of, you

[00:06:04] Tim Nash: Only once. There was one time where I had a client who was really, most people are lovely people and most, most people get on board with their security review because they want their site to be secure. But I had this one dev team who really, they, were, they, took it. Personally, everything.

Oh, they were very antagonistic and very sure of themselves. So when we were at, like, when they were like, this can't do this, we, know better. And there was this moment where it's yes, but the admin account on your website says otherwise the one with my name on it. And it's one of the very few times I've ever done that and with any sort of joy at that point of yeah, no, you're wrong.

[00:06:47] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. There's nothing, worse than somebody's smug coming in and telling you everything that you've done wrong. And I tried desperately not to be that person. speaking of smug, no, I dunno why I said I don't know why that came outta my mouth. I'm in such a strange mood today. the delightful Paul, half.

Penny, how are you doing? Third, and thanks very

[00:07:08] Paul Halfpenny: much. Very well, thank

[00:07:09] Nathan Wrigley: you. Really nice. Yes. Paul's. He's sporting a brand new, little moniker there. It says Personalized wp. We'll get to that in a little bit, but there's a new product being launched. Paul is the CTO of a WordPress agency called Filter, and the founder of w personalized wp, as I said, we'll see that later.

He loves Disney and has just returned from his latest trip to Orlando, where he rang in the new year at Kart Nice. And was propelled at high speed on the Tron and Guardians of the Galaxy Rides. Tell me this, right? How long do you have to queue? To get onto such rides or can you pay to circumvent the queue?

Yeah,

[00:07:52] Paul Halfpenny: there's a thing called a lightning lane and you can pay a lot of money. So we did, like the Tron rides just opened and it was the first year, so we got in the virtual queue and that took about an hour and a half. After waiting, all day for your group to be called. and then that took an hour and a half.

So the, next time we went back to Magic Kingdom, I spent $80 for the four of us to go on, and it took about five minutes. Nice. That was a massive

[00:08:19] Nathan Wrigley: improvement. Yeah. Yeah, I could. And speaking of people totting, I can imagine what that feels like as you walk down the lightning queue and all of those people have been stood there for four hours of Yeah.

[00:08:32] Paul Halfpenny: It's not good, but like the ride then, because the ride's quite short. Yeah. It does actually feel like you are in and out in 10 minutes. Okay. Which means there's a little bit of, I feel like I'm missing

[00:08:41] Nathan Wrigley: out. I, yeah. What the heck happens there? Just, Disney just took me to the cleaners. He absolutely took me to the cleaners.

Did you know that, Mickey Mouse, the, the, or I think it's Steamboat Willie, some particular variations of Steamboat Willie has fallen out of the purview of Disney, and I believe that certain examples of it can now be. So that's gonna be my logo from this episode forward. Yeah, you've gotta

[00:09:05] Paul Halfpenny: do it different.

do you remember the Winnie, the Pooh Horror movie last year? Oh, copyright. But they can't, they still can't use like the Disney Eye version, Disneyfied versions of Winnie the P. So it had to be like, Winnie, the P's a serial killer or something. I didn't want to go there. I,

[00:09:25] Tim Nash: in hours of going out, copyright the same people.

Did the Mickey Mouse version important to clarify that? If it was the Mickey Mouse version that's still in copyright. Oh, okay. Keynote Willie version That just looks

[00:09:38] Nathan Wrigley: oddly similar, vague. I was listening to a podcast and they said, and they actually, I, couldn't see it 'cause I was listening to it, but they had it on the screen.

There was a, something called Mickey Mouse, but without the e, so M-I-C-K-Y mouse, which came out one year before, which Disney himself just basically stole no doubt, and then patented up the wazoo. when it became really successful, his variation, presumably 'cause of the amazing things that you could do with animation at the time became really successful.

standing on the shoulders of. Mice, in this giant, giant mice. Yeah, really big on the shoulders of lawyers. That's the episode name already standing on the shoulders of really big mice, right? we've used up a quarter of the show or something just introducing each other. Let's, let's do the usual bits and pieces.

Firstly, if you are joining us in the comments, I thank you very much. That's really great. the easiest way to direct people is send them here, wp builds.com/live. You can use YouTube comments, you need to be logged into Google or if you actually search inside the actual video player, top right, there's a little live chat bot and you don't need to be, logged into anything, which is quite nice.

If you're using Facebook, we won't know who you are unless you go to Wave Video slash lives slash Facebook. we just get an anonymized version, but, very nice to have you with us. Jose, he's saying howdy. Rob Cairns is joining us. Happy Monday. He says, Elliot Sby from just down the road in Briton saying, hi, ary.

I'm guessing in Spain, but I could be wrong. Cameron Jones. It's four in the morning in Australia, but he is joining us, nevertheless. Appreciate it. And, oh, I'm so sorry. Esta, he's liking, but thank you and Peter Ingersol, as he always does, joining us to say what the weather's like in Connecticut.

And it is currently minus Ooh, that's brutal. It's minus six degrees centigrade, 21 degrees Fahrenheit and Sonic. It's about minus one where I am, but that's, bad enough. Okay. Let's crack on. Shall it? Let's talk about, Ooh, that's, oh, okay. I've got two things on at once. That's what that was all about.

so let's get on with the word pressy stuff. Firstly, a bit of self-promotion. I hope you don't mind. this is our website. WP builds.com. If you wanna keep up to date with what we do, just put your name, or rather your email into that little box and we'll send you two emails a week when we produce new content.

This will go out repurpose as a podcast tomorrow morning, and then we produce an actual podcast on Thursday. And big thanks to GoDaddy Pro for keeping the lights on over here. Really appreciate it. We've got a little schedule page. It's at wp. apparently we don't. Oh, yeah, we do. we have a schedule page over at wp builds.com/schedule.

It tells you what we're doing each and every week. And Peach's on the call. And look, I'm gonna be joining forces with her this Wednesday at 3:00 PM We're gonna be doing our monthly ui ux show. And on the following day, I'm gonna be talking with Sabrina Zan all about speeding up your WordPress websites.

If you go to any of these, if you just click on it, gives you a bit of information about what it's, and then you can put them in your calendar so that you can join us live. They're [email protected]. Forward slash live. Okay. And finally, another page, which apparently needed to be loaded. This is our little demo series, archive.

We, we just wound up a webinar series with a really nice chap called, Leonardo or Leo Lovich, all about his gato GraphQL plugin. You can see there's five episodes. They're not necessarily in order, but, you should really go check it out if you fancy extending what WordPress can do when you're into GraphQL or if you're just curious about, manipulating data on a very massive scale.

Have a look at his plugin. It's really good, and you can see that on our demos archive. You'll be able to find that right there. Okay. Alrighty. Let's go through this then. This is the year in core 2023. I don't know if it's the same person that does this each year, but each year somebody, writes a post similar to this, where they break down the stats, things like contributing to WordPress over the year 2023, in this case, the year prior.

And, there's some little caveats around where the stats come from, but we don't need to worry too much about that. But it may not include absolutely everything. But here, are the underlying stats, which I think personally show in some cases a really healthy WordPress ecosystem. In 2023, WordPress core shipped 2,211 commits, which is actually slightly down.

From the previous year, 2,751 tickets were opened. Almost all of them closed. and 365 were reopened. 2,545 were closed. 1079 people contributed, source code 472, of which was a first time contribution. And I have this recollection that after the pandemic, we were all getting a bit frantic that, the community was gonna evaporate and maybe that maybe we're, out of the, sort of the dip there, because it does seem to be a little bit more positive.

There are some stats here about when tickets and things are done, and oddly, it seems to follow this pattern. February's a really busy month and it drops off. To April. I don't quite know why that'd be. Then there's a sort of steady rise again towards the summer. Then it drops off again, and by October we're into what looks like the busiest period.

I'm guessing it's coinciding with core updates in the past year. That would be my intuition, although I can't exactly remember. Here's the countries, the list of contributions by country. As you may expect, the United States kind of dominates, Russia in second place, and not far behind actually. oh, apologies.

No, that was the previous year. and then it's what you may very well expect. Some of this may seem, fairly normal. India has doubled its contributing rate though. And then you've got Russia, India, France, Australia, United Kingdom, Ireland, but Bangladesh coming in 340 commits up from 145 in the previous year.

So that's quite positive. And again, this is contributors people by country United States first, as you again might expect, but. This was a bit of a surprise for me. Bangladesh comes in second place with 105 people up from 43 the previous year. then comes the company chart. And this looks in many ways quite similar, but, automatic at the top.

1,770 Yost came in second place just behind them turn. I feel like I'm reading the charts. and then who done it? I confess, I don't know who done it, are Google Blue Host XWP, human Made. How do I say that? Anybody? Help me? How do I say Addie's? Is it a, person? I'm so sorry. dreaming Code, Amelia Capital, which is now Yost and Marika's, venture Fund accessible WP and GoDaddy.

They're the companies in that order. And that's it, that's what I've got to say about that. Did anybody want to, chip in.

[00:17:14] Tim Nash: I'm not, sure. I'm shocked by Bangladesh.

[00:17:17] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, go on, tell us. You had an intuition about that, didn't you?

[00:17:20] Tim Nash: first of all, Bangladesh is a huge country. you tend to, you thinking Bala sort of the shapes and things and you go, oh, Bangladesh is the bit on the side of India and Pakistan, but it's not, it's a huge country with la large population.

And, it has a education system that's very much focused on practical things. and certainly from my experience has been that I've often come across people engaging in open source. They've actually been part of the education system where they're told to go and do stuff and go and, if, they're, it's very much a culture where it's like if you should be contributing along and you should be learning.

And so quite a lot of the higher education courses that are based around web development focus on WordPress and consequently. A lot of the education system is go and contribute, and that, I think is showing up. So I think a part of that, a lot of that is education that then merges into plugin teams and companies and from different places.

And you were, Nathan was saying earlier that there was a couple of large, plugins that came out from Bangladesh as well. So now it doesn't surprise me at all. If anything, I find it a little weird that, the UK is showing up so highly. we always seem to do. I, like to think it's the Mike Little effect.

but also we've got human made in up there as well who are Yeah. Big contributors. and it's, yeah, it's surprising that the, it's not a bit more balanced. We seem to have the United States and Russia, and then a awful lot of smaller countries on that list, and. Doesn't feel as disparate as it should be.

you've got, of all of the ones that perhaps the most shocking is Ireland. Yeah. Mainly the population of Ireland is so go, whoever's putting in those 403 contributions,

[00:19:10] Nathan Wrigley: well done them. It also is the only one, interestingly, I dunno if this means anything, but it's the only one which doesn't have a, piece of data from last year.

So I dunno if that means that they're, hot in, landing in the chart for the first time. But, yeah. that's amazing. the population of Ireland is, fairly small. I, don't

[00:19:29] Tim Nash: think it's, and, 70, you know what, less than 70 contributions behind the united high entire of the Ice Kingdom.

Yeah. Now feeling very poor. Yeah. In our,

[00:19:40] Nathan Wrigley: showing. Yeah. Yeah. that's pretty impressive. thank you for that, Tim. I, actually didn't know about the, say

[00:19:46] Tim Nash: one last thing. You've got countries like Germany, which have a huge open source culture. right away from government all the way through and not showing on the list at all.

[00:19:56] Nathan Wrigley: I wonder if that means that they, they're putting their endeavors into other things or if the community there is, yeah, who knows? But thank you. I didn't, I didn't know about the practical nature of the, the education system, but I guess that would make sense, wouldn't it? If you're given projects to do and you can get, hold of a free and open source piece of software gratis and you can start fiddling with that.

Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you. Good insight. Paul, Jess, anything on this? Anything surprising? Weird, interesting.

[00:20:28] Paul Halfpenny: I, think it's really interesting. What I've noticed on the last 12, 20, 18 months is the, prevalence and the number of work camps and how well they're attended over in that side of the world.

obviously work Camp Asia did very well last year and is probably gonna do very well this year, but maybe, I dunno whether it's just the accounts I'm following, and seeing more activity. But those work camps seem to be. Really well attended. There seems to be more of them and they seem to be doing much more at them as well.

So I think where, we don't have many work camps in the uk. and certainly not as busy as other places around the world. it's perhaps not unsurprising that we see more activity from ever.

[00:21:09] Nathan Wrigley: Come on Whitley Bay present. Yeah, that's what we got. Jess, anything to add to that?

[00:21:18] Jess Frick: Yeah, it was interesting to see, Russia and France, specifically because the top two committers, had 552 commits and 413 commits. which is pretty much, yeah,

[00:21:35] Nathan Wrigley: Russia and France. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. but then

[00:21:39] Jess Frick: also if you scroll down a little bit more, on that same vein, a little more.

Keep it going, keep going. Right

[00:21:49] Nathan Wrigley: there. Look at that. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'd forgotten this.

[00:21:52] Jess Frick: So we've got three quarters. More than three quarters of people are not sponsored to contribute, and yet they are still giving their time to this. and interestingly enough, it is increased.

[00:22:06] Nathan Wrigley: wait, the numbers look.

Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. So yeah, you're right. Again, for those people who are listening, we're staring at a chart where just under one quarter of that contribution cycle, were sponsored in some way, either by their company or through some other way of being, sponsored, contributor, sponsor or something like that.

so that means that three quarters were not, so 233, were sponsored. 846, were not. and I guess that's just the nature of open source, isn't it? I don't, I can't really compare that to any other years 'cause I don't have a, don't really have that data. I, love that those graphs to be true. Go on, tell

[00:22:50] Tim Nash: us more.

But I've got a horrible feeling that if we looked and at the definition of the word sponsored, it would start to feel a little bit more that. 'cause we have people who are. Whose entire job is to work on WordPress core. and they are, they clearly see themselves as sponsored. I wonder if somebody who works at one of the major companies who did something and then just pa on work time and then committed it thinks of themselves as sponsored or, whether they thought that was just part of their day job.

and whether the community should think that too. but I think it's hard to see that graph and not ask the question, what does sponsorship mean?

[00:23:32] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

Yeah. do you know what though? I think the lasting thing that I get, just comparing it to the previous year and obviously, if we were to go five years back and put all of the data in comparisons over five or 10 years, it'd be interesting to see how that worked. It, makes me feel much more positive than I was a couple of years ago.

Like I said, post pandemic where a lot of things really did seem to take a dip. So for whatever reason, whether it's just a, people getting back on the bandwagon or community events starting back up or who knows, but it makes me feel really positive about WordPress's future again. if people are willing to put this much time and effort in, then it just makes me feel, yeah, really glad that I'm still.

Part of this community and these people are contributing that you can find on the make wordpress.org site. It was on the 11th of January. Stephen Bernhardt penned that article, so you can go and peruse it at your leisure, but certainly some interesting things in there. We were speaking about events, so let's just quickly pivot to this one.

Can I just say, and I said this before we hit the record button. This has gotta be one of the most well organized events out there and I, don't mean like I, I don't mean like the knots and the bolts of it. I, I do this event, which is the WordPress accessibility day, if I'm correct, it's happening in October.

This year, I'm sure I've got the day I can't actually find it, but I'm pretty sure it's in October, later this year. And already they're out there making it happen. it's an online event. A lot of this could be left much later, but Amber and the team behind it have decided to, really make it, an important part of their lives, And firstly, Bravo, because I know that a lot of the problems with things like this, I know from bitter experience is just things falling through the cracks at the last minute because you're just in such a rush to complete everything. So doing it all in advance, like this is just great. So I'm sure you've got some intuition as to what the WordPress Accessibility Day is, but this is to say that they're looking for an organizing team.

Amber Hines posted this, I don't know if Amber is the, sole person. behind it. I'm not entirely sure. It does say the WP Accessibility Day Board, so presumably not. But they are looking for people to make a real commitment to this event and they need people like marketing and, more or less everything that you can imagine, but they're very clear.

This is also what I like. They're really clear in their, what their expectations are, and this is what they would like, from you. They, and great language as well. It's not please would you, it's like we expect. Which I think is fine, at least you know what, you're getting yourself in for two hours a week from February, right through to October.

they would like you to attend bi biweekly Zoom meetings through Midsummer, and then weekly meetings after that. be an active participant in their Slack channel, be available for the actual event. you've gotta be there for that as well. And generally be a good citizen advocating for the event and what have you.

and if you have any intuitions that this may be something that you want to get involved in, there is a, Zoom session taking place tomorrow. so 10:00 AM US central time, so that's 4:00 PM this side of the pond and yeah, I just thought blooming neck, I dunno what you are like, but if I was running an event like that, I reckon we'd be well into June before that page went out.

So bravo to them. Anybody got any thoughts?

[00:27:23] Jess Frick: We were proud sponsors last year, and I will say from a sponsor perspective, the board is phenomenally organized. they do have a nonprofit established, so it is a board. It's not just Amber Bette, another friend of the show. Yeah. serves on the board and Joe.

but they are an absolutely incredible group of people. and I, would absolutely love to take part in this again this next year. I did have a follow-up question for you though, Nathan. I noticed that the page defaulted on light mode for you. Are you not a dark mode person?

[00:27:57] Nathan Wrigley: Oh my goodness. What the heck is wrong with you?

Top right buddy. No. Oh, IS okay, let me try it. Let me give it a go. Yeah, just

[00:28:07] Jess Frick: tap it. There you go. Oh, look at how much better that

[00:28:10] Nathan Wrigley: is.

[00:28:11] Paul Halfpenny: no. I'm, light.

[00:28:14] Nathan Wrigley: Oh. okay. I know, I'm gonna be castrated for the environmental impact. But, okay. Let's have a show of hands out of the four panel.

Let's remove it from the screen so we can see who's for dark mode. Who's for light mode. You can do multiple hands. Can't we stop that? That doesn't care. I'm voting twice. So it's, an even split, which is exactly how you'd expect it to be. Age. It's an age.

[00:28:38] Tim Nash: We got age now. Okay. I don't think it's an age trend.

[00:28:43] Nathan Wrigley: I'm gonna get a graphic with loads of hands on it. no, I can't do that. I, tried it, everywhere and I quickly realized it wasn't for me. and that is not me being pedantic. I genuinely can consume it more easily. If it's on light mode, if you were to look at my screen here, everything's light mode and I get it from an environmental point of view, I'm heating up the pixels.

Which is not great. But, I'll

say

[00:29:09] Jess Frick: I love that they have those contrast sensitivity settings on their website and the color perception is definitely a real thing.

[00:29:17] Nathan Wrigley: So, do you, are you like me, but the opposite, you actually find it easier to consume. Huh? Interesting. How does it work in sunshine?

If you're on your phone and you're in sunshine, is it an improved experience or a worse experience typically? Oh, I. I'll let Tim take it, but I think it's better. Yeah.

[00:29:35] Tim Nash: Okay. Yeah. So I, suffer from snaking, which is when, individual characters or words go for wander on the page. And so I can be reading a p reading something and then a individual character will just drift and wander off on the page visually.

and it can be, sometimes it can be whole words. I find therefore I've all my life had high contrast screen, so I, sometimes I will overlay a purple or a orange glow tin to it, right? To help just force my eyes to not do that. dark mode ha significantly helps me in that case scenario. and I have everything set into dark mode.

I also have it set with non serif fonts for a similar reason. just anything that will keep the words in the place that the author intended them to be.

[00:30:25] Nathan Wrigley: That is absolutely fascinating. I'd for, a start, I'd never heard that term. But now, it makes perfect sense. You call it s Sneaking Snaking,

[00:30:35] Tim Nash: yeah.

it's a dyslexic trait. It's, but it's when, yeah. Individual characters or words wander off the page and it is, the best way to describe it is like a snake. They sliver and wander off.

[00:30:48] Nathan Wrigley: can I ask you all questions about this? Because I'm genuinely interested and given that we're talking about accessibility day, right?

That mean, it's right in the purview of that. So an individual character from within a word could exhibit this behavior. Yes. so again, forgive me, right? Is it that character picks itself up and removes, so the word is now absent of that character? So

[00:31:11] Tim Nash: the, letter itself wonders as if it was like a bug on the screen, had just.

Wandered on. Oh, and at that point, the word effectively shimmers for want of a better term. And it's no, it, morphs and then the word becomes very hard to re visualize on. So if I stepped away from the screen and looked back, the word would be back in place and the

[00:31:33] Nathan Wrigley: character. But a simple blink, the normal amount of blinking that you do, doesn't

[00:31:39] Tim Nash: that wouldn't affect it.

I have to be away and re readjusting. And the, when that happens, it's, it, the brain and the cognitive processing kicks in and it often comes with a small amount of, you become tired very quickly. Yeah. can be quite painful as well, if you're in certain circumstances.

[00:31:59] Nathan Wrigley: Do you know, I, find this stuff really interesting because we live, just rewind the clock, 25 years.

everybody's living in the real world and information is coming outta books, and I know that, what you've just described is probably a characteristic in real books as well. And you've got those little overlays that you can put on, but now everybody is living in the digital world and it's totally possible to do a better job of making things like you just described.

to remediate them a bit. I don't know if that can be removed entirely, but, but things can be done like the option for dark mode and, and it does feel like the whole accessibility thing in the weeks, months, years to come is gonna be something that we all can't, nobody can ignore. And I don't mean just because it's the moral thing to do.

it's because you are literally gonna be, there's trip wires in the law that are gonna be put in place to, to force you to do it if you don't wish to do it. And, yeah. So there you go. The, the website Accessibility Day. y event in October. Could be for you. Paul, did you get a chance with this one?

I, for, I forget whether we let you hop in. Oh, no, I was

[00:33:11] Paul Halfpenny: just gonna say, I was just amazed at how many people they had, just attend for a single day over 2000. That's interesting.

[00:33:17] Nathan Wrigley: 2,158. It's pretty impressive, isn't it? doing God's work. So there it is. WP accessibility. Dot day is the URL and it's the, call for organizers.

And presumably once that little tra people has been filled up, we'll get some more information about the event itself as it, and just as

[00:33:38] Paul Halfpenny: an aside on that, actually, it's, it's the last day of call for speakers at WCEU today, isn't it? oh, okay.

[00:33:45] Nathan Wrigley: I think if date to Jan. Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give them a talk about, why it's a good idea not to rush your talk or something Like that. Okay. okay. But thank you. Okay. This is weird. I have never organized a WordPress meetup or, or WordCamp or anything like that. So a little bit difficult for me to really get in behind this story and the impact that it may have. And again. I'm just working anecdotally of what I've heard, but I've heard that if you want to organize an official WordPress event, not a Word camp maybe, but like a meetup, you have to go through the meetup platform, for the ticketing and the, all of it, essentially that the guests come via the Meetup platform.

So firstly, if that's true, Tim, can you confirm or deny that I know that you've been involved with all also it's,

[00:34:41] Tim Nash: so strongly encouraged that it might as well be true. I'm not actually sure there's ever, it's ever written down as black and white, but, you are given a meetup account. When you become a chapter program, which WordPress manages that, and it has a user in it so that should the user group ever fall out of, if you, if Meetup users, organizers say they've had, they can't do it anymore, that, that way the WordPress program can pass it on to the next people.

So that's the, argument for why they do it. whereas if you had your own Eventbrite systems and all this, you'd be and had, your own mailing lists for the users, then it wouldn't be enclosed in that ecosystem.

[00:35:22] Nathan Wrigley: Interesting. Okay. So there's, maybe not an absolute tie in, but there's a very strong hint of something equivalent to that.

So then suddenly this piece of news for the WordPress community gains really significant importance because that platform, which. you may have been forgiving in thinking it was part of, I don't know, part of automatic or something like that because it's so bound to all the events. it's not, and, it's been sold, it's been acquired by a company called Bending Spoons, which is an interesting name.

And Bending spoons are a software vendor, which create a variety of SAS apps. and they've acquired it. they bought this is the only experience I've got with bending spoons. They bought Evernote, which I actually make use of. I have a, an account, a paid for account on Evernote. Quite like it, but notice that the software had pretty much stagnated and about eight months ago, maybe a little bit more, they acquired Evernote and, released the same PR that everybody else does.

Nothing will be affected. It will all be the fine. And then about a month later, they fired everybody in North America. and moved all of the people over to, I believe it was Italy anyway, since that point e as far as I could tell, hasn't really gone under significant change, but I'm just concerned about what this means for the community, whether there's gonna be that strong relationship with events.

And if it turns out that bending spoons are not good custodians, how difficult will it be for people running chapters to wrangle that back into their own hands and get their hands on the mailing list? And I don't know, I'm, I just have concerns when something like this happens. I've, no justification for being concerned, but I think, I think it's something we all need to be mindful of, given how deeply embedded the whole ecosystem is.

again, open to anybody, including Tim, if you've got any more to add.

[00:37:27] Tim Nash: Just to add that there's been, over the years, many attempts to say, Hey, we could probably, manage to create a meetup like experience and the open source community in general, not out outside of WordPress. This is a thing, meetup has been the central point, and it doesn't matter which community you join.

Eventually someone says, we really should come up with an alternative for this. And over the years there's been alternatives and they've sucked. And the thing is that Meetup sucks more, but it has this gravity of users, because it's the place that you go do this. The fact that it's rubbish is irrelevant and it is truly a terrible experience.

[00:38:09] Paul Halfpenny: Yeah, we had, we experienced it last year and I, it was terrible and it was, really painful just trying to do stuff. And

[00:38:16] Tim Nash: if you are a user, here, to give you an example, we, for WordPress leads, you put in the location where you are holding your meet up and you go, hi, we are in Leads uk.

And then you get people signing up from leads Alabama, and you're like, oh, you, yep. You only match the first word, didn't you? You didn't bother to match the That's

[00:38:38] Nathan Wrigley: right. you've been a naughty boy.

[00:38:41] Tim Nash: Yeah. Which end of this secret should we have started with? Nope. No, we're gonna with a word at the front.

[00:38:47] Nathan Wrigley: Okay.

[00:38:47] Tim Nash: So that's is a really good example. If you've ever experienced it as a user, trust me, as a admin user, it's a hundred times worse. to this day, I still, I get emails from occasional people going, hi, I, want information about this meetup. And it's Meetup hasn't existed for ages, and I'll go in and realize it's just sending me ghost emails from users from five years ago who sent this and it's only just now managed to reach my inbox.

Wow. Okay. So welcome held that is Meetup.

[00:39:21] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So it's a, potentially it wasn't the best platform, so maybe something like this will shake things up a little bit. Yeah, my, my concern, and again, I'm not having to go at bending spoons, but it was a bit strange that they issued this thing about Evernote where they said nothing particularly would change, and then the next press release, which didn't come from them by the way, I got it off, regular media, was that they'd fired all the staff in North America and moved, moved the entire workforce to somewhere else.

It just made me, I dunno, it didn't give me the right kind of intuitions about that company. So whether or not we trust them. Dunno, either way it might move things. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. That

[00:40:01] Tim Nash: it's gotta be worth have reopening the conversation. 'cause it's current state, it's, really isn't fit for purpose.

And I'm sure it, if it's not the, it's certainly not the only barrier, but it's one of the many barriers that are preventing local meetups from happening again. Because, literally there are meetup, owners and chapter who are going and trying to log in and going, I can't remember how to add a meetup.

Oh, we won't have one this month.

[00:40:28] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, okay. Yeah. It could be a barrier to entry should say that it's not just for WordPress. presumably it's for all sorts of anything meet ups, whether you're local cricket club or whatever it may be. but yeah. Okay. There we go. Jess, anything on that before we crack on?

I got nothing. Yeah, you got nothing. That's fine. Okay. In that case, we will move on. we'll talk, just, this is a bit of a hat tip. I know that, in all sorts of ways, sponsorship is an important part of the WordPress community. We mentioned that in terms of contributing to core, but there's also, some of the larger global sponsors, they put their hat into the ring and get selected and they contribute and it goes to all sorts of things, including word camps and things like that.

And I'm just mentioning the, the five global sponsors at Gold level for this year. There's the usual, automatic as you may expect, is there. We've also got Blue Host and GoDaddy, who, full disclosure, are a sponsor of this podcast as well. woo. I still can't get around my head around the fact that it doesn't end in commerce.

and new into the list, WP Beginner, which is a, which is a publication created by. Awesome motive. There's been a little bit of toing and froing recently, about Awesome Motive, hasn't there? I think there quite often is. There's some videos going around recently and what have you. But anyway, they're the five global sponsors.

whatever you make of the companies individually, it's quite a big commitment and I guess from my point of view, thanks to them for putting their hat into the ring and helping WordPress in twenty

[00:42:07] Paul Halfpenny: two, a hundred fifty grand

[00:42:10] Nathan Wrigley: dollars. I don't know, actually, should we see if we can find that out at least?

Yeah, let's have a look. It may not say at this point it's $5 billion. I feel like I need to shave my hair off on something. Oh, there we go. There we go. Hundred hundred 45. 45. Yeah, it's a lot of money. pocket change. you know what? I guess in some cases that may Well, for some of the people on that list.

yeah. Let's just have a go back and see what we make of that. Companies, I should say automatic blue host GoDaddy. Woo.

[00:42:45] Jess Frick: we, glot was on there for a couple of years and they're not on there this year. They're

[00:42:49] Nathan Wrigley: trying new things out. I was speaking to Thomas Fanin and they actually found it to be quite a.

a good exper. None of this, by the way, is not public domain. We talked about it on a podcast. he was saying they're just trying out some new things. They thought it was a, worthwhile experience, but they're just gonna try out some new things in the year 2024. I think they've got quite a lot of really interesting ideas up their sleeve, but let's see.

Okay, so there we go. They're the new global sponsors and, okay, so I didn't really, this isn't really news because it's was in the year of, sorry, the month of December last year, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. I dunno if you've got a plugin or of any plugin developers, but really the plugin review team, it's been a struggle, I think since, Mika.

Left. And prior to that even, the years that she put in, I think there was an awful lot of a, volume of work, which was mountainous, insurmountable. You never see the light at the end of the tunnel, but also I think sometimes it got a little bit outta hand in terms of animosity and comments being directed at people.

And, your plugin didn't get accepted. So rather than cope with that, you just fire off some incendiary email or what have you. So there's a bit of that going on, but, it closed and we should be able to hear from them soon. But I, wonder what you guys think Paul, you've got a new plugin.

We'll mention it in a moment. I don't know if it's gonna be going into the repository or not, but is 90 days, too long? is that an inhibiting factor, do you think, in the WordPress space? Do we wanna get this down to I think the intention is to get it almost like next week kind of thing.

I dunno if they'll ever do that, but the team is growing. There's a load of, there's a plugin which you'll be able to use to check your own plugin. That's meta. hope that plugin works. that would be, really bad. and, also they're bumping up the number of people to, I believe it's five.

yeah. So yeah,

[00:44:55] Tim Nash: you imagine having to wait 90 days to get the, for the plugin to be submitted? That's right. Yeah.

[00:45:02] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, I dunno why I found that so funny. That just seems almost like a Monty Python Sketch physician. Heal thyself. Paul, carry on. Sorry.

[00:45:11] Paul Halfpenny: yeah, I, think we, we have, we are in process of being reviewed actually, and we, submitted the latest new build of our plugin in November, I think.

so it's been a long time and there's. Been a bit of feedback, which we're addressing. and then it'll go back in the, it would be nice to get somewhere. 10 days I think would be, yeah. Okay. To court, that that seems reasonable given that it's free. I look at what we do with other things.

'cause obviously we do mobile work at our, agency as well. So we do, we go through the app store review process with iOS and we go through the review process on Android as well. Android is pretty much fully automated. It's, gonna check a bunch of things, and then you're gonna hear back whether it's, okay or not.

And actually there's not a real person looking at it. App store process, on ioss. It's obviously not particularly transparent. and I think that's the key really, is he's understanding, it's almost like wanting to be on the phone to the doctors where it goes. You are number three in the queue. if you knew that, that would give you a little bit of insight into where you are.

If you, had a status, so it said, you are in, you're being processed or you are being reviewed at the moment, that would really help. Or if you knew what the statuses were to go through that. So I think, I always think there's more about giving information to people. I don't think necessarily the time is a bit of an issue when it's 90 days, but if you're like aiming for 10 days, 14 days, but you tell people where they are and when they can expect it, it's much easier to be able to plan something.

And go, ah, okay. I know there's broadly a two-week lead time and I know where I am in this process that would really

[00:46:54] Nathan Wrigley: help 90 days is if you are, let's say that you're releasing it and you're releasing, I dunno, a commercial version and the free version at the same time. Yeah. 90 days. So a quarter of a year roughly.

That is a lot of runway that you like. if that's gonna be your job, you are hoping to make that plugin your thing that is a long time to be waiting. I guess in the scenario where you wait and you're approved first time, great. But if you're waiting in the scenario where there's just a bunch of stuff that you need to fix, I suspect that has probably turned a few developers off just at the point where they were thinking about using WordPress at all.

when did something different instead. So yeah, dragging it down sounds like 10 days feels. It feels about right to me as well. Yeah, and I think it's all

[00:47:40] Paul Halfpenny: about, it's all about agility and being able to do stuff when stuff happens. So say you, there was a new AI thing that came out tomorrow. Somebody, can I just say

[00:47:51] Nathan Wrigley: were, there will be a new AI thing comes out,

[00:47:54] Paul Halfpenny: it probably will.

Yeah, But you are able to incorporate that into a new plugin and you wanted to show it off and then you go, actually that's 90 days now. I can't get that into the org repository. Nobody can use it for 90 days. And by that point you've lost the moment. I think that's where it, that's where it falls over.

[00:48:11] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. That is a

[00:48:13] Paul Halfpenny: good point. You can always get commercial and things like that, but I think it's a bit of a playground in a plugin repository for things as well to get people in the ha get stuff in the hands of people and get 'em to play with it. And I think the sooner that you can do that, the better.

And I think if there was, a way of automating some of the testing so that, you can almost pre-release something and you could put it into a beta area so that people can play with it, knowing that it's not gone full through full plugin review maybe that would be an alternative as well.

[00:48:43] Jess Frick: So like they go through The plugin check. Plugin pass all the tests there. Yeah.

[00:48:48] Paul Halfpenny: Yeah. Oh, okay. And then it's available for people to use, but then it's not like publicly available if you wanted to give people a link to it to go and download it or Yeah.

[00:48:56] Nathan Wrigley: has

[00:48:56] Jess Frick: passed the plugin review plugin tests.

[00:48:59] Nathan Wrigley: That's not easy to say. Not

[00:49:01] Jess Frick: approved. Yeah. It feels like somebody could have come up with a better name for that. It's, but I think part of the problem is people aren't doing their own checks and so it's clogging the whole system.

[00:49:11] Nathan Wrigley: And this is a nice trip wire for that, isn't it? So I think the intended workflow is you'll submit a, you'll submit something, you will then be told to use the plugin check plugin, and it will then flag all of the obvious stuff that can be automated.

and I think we've got Juliet to thank for a lot of that work. And, yeah. Anyway, that's another entire story which we've covered before. please donate to her by the way, just that's all. And, then if you pass that, then you can submit it into the queue. But I do the, I like the, I like the holding pattern idea, like the UR fourth in the queue.

That, that's just something a little psychologically nice about that.

[00:49:53] Tim Nash: You say that, but I might be dreaming it, but that used to be in place.

[00:49:57] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Maybe it is still, I think it

[00:49:59] Tim Nash: was one of these things where the integer just got so large that it don't

[00:50:02] Nathan Wrigley: you 758 in the queue. I

[00:50:07] Tim Nash: just wanted, if anybody hasn't, Mika has been doing some brilliant blog posts on her experiences over the years.

Oh boy. I've, if you get a chance, go read them. I. Anybody who's done any technical support will sympathize and then there will be the people who will just not believe. Yeah, but they're all true.

[00:50:29] Nathan Wrigley: Some, of them actually, there's, it can make you quite angry. What, had, to be born in silence?

I guess maybe the silence was somewhat self-imposed to keep that position the way it, it was. But yeah, not some of it not very nice, at all. But, yeah, Cameron, on the other hand, joining us saying that he, submitted several and they got approved within, approved within a week, some within 24 hours, but he said that was many years ago.

Try it, Cameron just No, actually don't. That's a complete waste of people's time. Don't submit a nonsense plug. Lot plugins can

[00:51:06] Paul Halfpenny: be really complex now though. Yeah. we're getting some really big complex, heavy plugins that do a lot of things. they're not as simple as perhaps they used to be.

I know there's still a lot simple ones out there and that's the point of plugins. But,

[00:51:21] Nathan Wrigley: you were, sorry. There's lot more going on. I know that this is not what we're supposed to be talking about, but on the Android side, you mentioned that was all, or at least you got the impression that it was all automated.

[00:51:31] Paul Halfpenny: Yeah, it's automated build. Yeah, so we, the CI process through to the Android store that runs through a bunch of tests and then it's gonna come back in, I don't know, eight hours, 24 hours with a, you've passed all of these tests

[00:51:46] Nathan Wrigley: and does that get you into the app store then? Or is it that point? Yeah, then it goes

[00:51:49] Paul Halfpenny: to another level.

At that point you can put it into a track then, you can release into the app store. But yes, essentially. But if you did that, like with the plugin, the, plugin review plugin, then you could imagine a service where you could just fire

[00:52:05] Nathan Wrigley: it

[00:52:05] Jess Frick: at that. Yeah, like a test flight, but for WordPress,

[00:52:08] Nathan Wrigley: right?

yeah. Okay. anyway, that's what's happening during the course of 2024. The team is being expanded. there's a new plugin and there's gonna be lots more documentation, not only for you dear developer, but also for the team members themselves, so that they can hopefully onboard. People more quickly.

So there's a lot of change in that department, which I think will be entirely, positive. on the hosting side, a company which we've all known about for absolute ages and ages has had a bit of a rebrand. this is Kinta. who, so I've never heard of 'em. No, that's right. it would appear for a little bit of time.

Recently, they were put in a bit of clear blue water between themselves and WordPress because when they came onto the scene, I could be wrong about this, but my feeling is that they were a managed WordPress house right from the very start. And, and that was the mantra, I think they did incredibly well.

And about 18 months ago, I think they thought, we've grown such and such. Let's push in other new directions. And so took the word WordPress out of a lot of their marketing and what have you. maybe that hasn't worked out. Maybe something has changed, but it would appear that they've decided to have a bit of a rebrand.

And the rebrand has, has also seen them aligning themselves much more with WordPress. So the, I, don't know what to say. really, you were talking earlier about, so this is the perfect segue. Thank you, Tim, for giving me this. You said about snaking, I've got something going on with that design.

Just there is something there, which my brain does not particularly get along well with. I can't say what it is, but there's a certain sense of, Ooh. So that's, that's what it is. I'm not saying I have any chops or credentials to tell people how to design things, but I find that quite hard on my eye.

However, I. All that being said, you can see front and center. We're right back into the WordPress space. So if Kinta your endeavor was to move away from WordPress, welcome back. If you've just, rejigged it a little bit, welcome back. Anyway, it's nice to see that you've got back to your roots. So what do you make of that?

I'm not gonna put you on the spot. If you have something to say about that design, you can say it. If you just want to pass over, that's fine. I've obviously said something now and probably shouldn't have done, but Yeah, I find that a little bit. it's definitely opinionated.

[00:54:49] Paul Halfpenny: I would like to see, the results of an eye tracker on how people view that website because when I look at it, I look to the left and then I look to the right.

That's

[00:55:01] Nathan Wrigley: exactly what I did.

[00:55:03] Paul Halfpenny: Yeah. And then I almost can't go back to the middle to read the text. Yep. and then I go down to the bottom and therefore I miss anything about WordPress because I'm going all the way around the core message. that's it for me.

[00:55:19] Nathan Wrigley: fair enough. Yeah, that was basically what I, was just drawn to this, so maybe that is all it is.

Maybe there's just something about those designs, which suck me in. but I definitely had that sort of dancing thing and I'd never, ever, get something like that, but I definitely did when I saw that for the first time, like lava lamps almost. It was all just like a little bit moving.

It's pretty bold though, don't you reckon? From, what everybody else is doing where, a lot of white space, the typical sort of blue often that you see with SAS apps and thing, hosting companies and what have you. It's definitely a bold move. I'm sure it'll work out for them. But, anyway, Kinta, welcome back.

That's the,

[00:56:01] Tim Nash: the use of the word modern WordPress science. We don't want any of your legacy stuff. No. Yeah. If you go host that with some other company, we don't wanna talk to you. That's right. Which seems like a very, and it's, I feel that's like reinforcing that opinionated design with a very opinionated front message.

I'm not, which will resonate with some people. They're, clearly going for the, for a certain group of users that they're hoping to attract. And maybe that's why that design's gonna work for them.

[00:56:35] Nathan Wrigley: they were, one of those hosting companies, which that they seem and taking off the screen everywhere, my eyes.

Okay. Okay. The, they were everywhere for a period of time, maybe five years ago. They were the company that everybody talked about. If you talked about managed WordPress hosting, it was usually Kinter, WP Engine, or at least that was my experience. And it feels like that, top of mind. Has gone a little bit, and I wonder if that was part of what they were trying to do, reach out to.

I think their low, their strap line went more, something along the lines of, we're here for your next project, or something like that. So it wasn't for your next WordPress project. It was just project and, but anyway, they seem to be, back, in the WordPress game, so let's hope that it works out well for them.

anybody else? Jess? No, probably not Jess. Jess is a,

[00:57:31] Jess Frick: honestly, I mean they, they had some funding changes last year and then they laid off a whole bunch of really good, smart WordPress people and then they released the design To Lawrence's point, who wrote the post that you shared? it is bold.

it's cool to see somebody doing something different. But I don't, I don't know that's the choice I

[00:57:53] Nathan Wrigley: would've made. Yeah. So I forgot to, to raise this post, didn't I? this is actually the thing which got me thinking. It was, WP Biz Dev. and as you say, it was by Lawrence and he was talking about exactly that.

First of all, the bold design and also the fact that, that it's nice to see them back talking more about WordPress. So anyway, there we go. Speaking of new things, w personalized wp. Now that's a pretty design. Now, would you calming, you don't need to say that.

[00:58:24] Paul Halfpenny: Just 'cause I'm

[00:58:24] Nathan Wrigley: here. I like, it's an aggressive design.

It's violent. It feels, like, no, it's nice. But forget all that. This is personalized. WP, you've managed to bag the, Personalized with a ZI notice, I'm not saying anything and with

[00:58:41] Paul Halfpenny: ms, but that is, the

[00:58:43] Nathan Wrigley: defined, okay. Okay. You bought the Ss Oh, we bought the S, yeah. and so this is a new endeavor or an old endeavor that you've relaunched.

What, is it your, it's your project, right? As in you and your team?

[00:58:56] Paul Halfpenny: Yeah, absolutely. So we did over Covid, we built a little plugin called, W-P-D-X-P. and we just wanted to be able to show and hide content using the block editor, as a little project for, our developers. And then I spoke about that at Work Camp Europe in Porto.

And then we carried on developing it a little and we made it work, properly, which was good. And then in Athens, we pitched to Amelia Capital, for some investment to go and take this to the next level. and we got a yes. And then since then we've done a rebrand to personalize wp, because we thought that what it does, what it says on the tin, but while branding, you can just about see a WP in that little squiggle.

Oh,

[00:59:45] Nathan Wrigley: I was, yeah, I, yeah, I got it. It's nice.

[00:59:49] Paul Halfpenny: and then at phase three, and we've been doing some updates. We've added some new features to it, and we've literally just launched this like very soft launch last week as a paid commercial plugin, but it's obviously going into the org repository as well. So on the pricing overview page, you can see that there's a free option, which allows you to have personalization rules, which we've always had in our, in our plugin.

If you could just go, and then standard, we have a few extra, personalization rules that, that meet, and link up and integrate with, like WooCommerce and Gravity Forms and Ninja Forms. And our pro version allows you to track people around your website, build visitor profiles, segment them, and then you'll be able to do lead scoring as well.

this is, these are all features that we see in other CMSs that we've used in the past. 'cause in the past we've used Sitecore, we've used Episerver and Optimizely, we've used Ken to co we've used, everything that's out there. basically, and WordPress doesn't have that in call. So this is, for us, it's putting those features in there that we think will be useful to some people, even if you're just a hobbyist or running like a small shop, to be able to show things based on what your customers are, where they're coming from, and who they are, and what time of day they are all the way up through to agencies who may not want to go and put stuff into HubSpot or those kind of SaaS-based CRMs, and can hold some of that data in there and market and target to those users as well.

So it, we are very much at a starting point, this is new ground for us. It's very exciting. and we're like in feedback and listening mode now to try and find out. What works, what doesn't work. We've got loads of lessons to learn. I'm sure we know loads of WordPress product people around the community.

but we do have yes, to Meki, that are helping us along the way, which is a great resource to have.

[01:01:50] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that's nice. Can I ask you a random question? How many hours did it take you to decide to use the word standard for that? Because I've always thought that's a really, what is the word that encompasses the, least one, if Yeah. is it, you call it basic, you call it standard, you just call it, I don't know. and I always think that's 'cause you don't ever want to imply that it's, less standard. If you mean you wanna, you'll imply that it's great, but not Yeah. Not quite as great. It's all right. Yeah. It's alright.

Yeah, that would be great. The all right version. It's not bad. It's fair.

[01:02:27] Paul Halfpenny: Yeah. It's, not what you could've won. It's a reasonable

[01:02:31] Nathan Wrigley: plugin.

[01:02:34] Paul Halfpenny: I think, do you know what, actually, it's really hard if you scroll down a bit. There's a little one of those little things that Yeah. That goes, ah, this is what you're gonna get in all of these things. And actually, just even doing that was a great challenge for us to try and work out Okay, what you're gonna get and, but quite, yeah, To do it for the first time and then come up with stuff. And that went through several variations before we got to, to where we wanted to be. And, I'm sure it's gonna change and adapt with time. And that's, the most important thing, is just to take the lessons on and, be adaptable and be agile in terms of what

[01:03:07] Nathan Wrigley: we're delivering.

I've got one more thing, just a quick typo. Yeah. oh my God. That one. No,

[01:03:16] Jess Frick: actually

[01:03:16] Tim Nash: no, Nathan.

[01:03:17] Nathan Wrigley: It's not I know, I just thought technically. See, I technically, you're absolutely right. Yes. Thanks Jess. Yeah. Thank

[01:03:24] Jess Frick: you. Yeah, it's correct. But I have a question for you Paul. Go. Yeah. Are you scared to launch something like this with so much focus on, as you say, privacy.

[01:03:35] Paul Halfpenny: no, because, this is all first party data, right? Rather than third party data necessarily. So ha It's actually quite beneficial to people running this plugin on their own site that they don't need to go and put the data somewhere else. They're not gonna offsite it somewhere else. and particularly when we look at the enterprise space as well, it's having control of your own data is probably the most important thing, but it's a great question.

[01:04:02] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you. Yeah, that is interesting because that is one of the big things. it's just one of the big stories of the last few years, isn't it? data and where it's held and how it's going across oceans and getting used and sold and what have you. So this is all the data that this plugin, generates is being held within the WordPress database.

I suppose that brings questions, other questions to mind, but yeah, no, of course.

[01:04:26] Paul Halfpenny: And we know from working with clients on the agency side that not all clients want that data in their workplace database. So we will be developing a way to offsite that data if you are of that mind. But for many users, it's not necessarily, the thing that they need to be worried about

[01:04:43] Nathan Wrigley: as long as their hosting is secure.

So is it's a trigger action mentality. It's set up a thing which happens on the website, then decide what will happen as a result of that. So I don't know if you scroll a certain amount, do this. If you leave the browser, viewport do, this, that kind thing.

[01:05:02] Paul Halfpenny: Yeah, it is. but you can get a, lot more complicated than that very quickly.

So you can, if somebody fills in a form or goes to a certain page, you can put them into a segment or you could give them a lead score. You could give them a value for an action that they've taken, and then you could segment by lead scores. You can segment by people that have bought a particular product, but that filled in that data.

When you've got that visitor profile set up, you can see all of their actions on, the site that they've taken previously can move them from anonymous to known. And then in the block editor, you can choose whether somebody sees a piece of content based on how they match those rules. So is this, show this piece of content?

If this person's from the UK and they exist in this segment where they've already filled in a form and their lead score is above 30, show them a promotional message with an offer kind of

[01:05:54] Nathan Wrigley: thing. You've got, I can imagine you've got a journey ahead of you with blog posts and what have you, spelling out what's possible.

the, a lot of work when you've got, when you've got a plugin where it's so open-ended like that, that you can do what you like. I think one of the hardest things is to actually educate the audience as to what's possible or the different things that you can do with it. 'cause my intuition would be that a lot of people will not really understand its true power.

welcome, welcome to the bloggers here. Hey, thanks

[01:06:23] Paul Halfpenny: mate. keeping it simple, but it's given the power to the agencies really to be able to go and do things for their clients. So that's probably one of our core.

[01:06:33] Tim Nash: Does it have lots of, Actions and filters hooked in so that you can expand it and put your own integrations in?

Or are you tightly control those

[01:06:41] Paul Halfpenny: at the moment? Doesn't, yeah. No. They're all pretty tightly controlled at the moment, but we will be expanding and doing that. So what we wanted to do is get to a point where it's got enough features to be worthwhile. Then we've got the roadmap for the rest of this year and we've got development resource for the rest of this year booked in to, to work on it continually.

So it's, a long-term thing, but it's, not, we're, starting at day zero, I call it.

[01:07:06] Nathan Wrigley: And

[01:07:06] Tim Nash: you are in the I'm, it wasn't an AI thing, I'll be honest. I was looking at it going, oh, please don't be an AI thing. Please don't be, oh, it's actually something sensible and usable. There's no ai.

[01:07:16] Paul Halfpenny: Practically practical. There's gonna be a bit of AI in the future, but only for things like content.

[01:07:22] Tim Nash: You have AI in it. yeah.

[01:07:26] Nathan Wrigley: It's this year. I am, I dunno if it, I dunno about you, but I am so sick of getting an email with the words AI and the title. It's almost now a flag for me to just delete it.

it's so ridiculous how everything's been crowbar with ai. You can buy a kettle. With AI in it. I don't want a kettle with AI in it. I want a switch. And that's all.

[01:07:52] Paul Halfpenny: I've just had that discussion with my wife about washing machines this morning where, there's like a, wifi enabled washing machine that can alter dose your washing.

She's I don't want that. I just wanna put a thing in and then press a switch. And I know what I'm doing with

[01:08:06] Nathan Wrigley: that. Yeah. I, think we overcomplicate things, don't we? And the, idea of an AI enabled. Fridge or whatever it may be. I think it's fun, right? The nerd in me loves it, and I would love to go to somebody's house and tinker with somebody that's got it.

But for me it's more I don't want that's gonna break in so many ways that I don't understand how to fix, but it goes wrong. I need the thousand dollar an hour mechanic to come with his laptop. Oh, anyway, congratulations on getting this shipped. It's a nice achievement to begin the year. Thank you.

24. And it'd be really nice to see how it goes.

[01:08:43] Paul Halfpenny: There's, I wanna point out, there's a, I have a team that do wonderful things. Yeah, thank you. And, barely any of this is me. It's all them. and they do all the hard work, and actually, if it wasn't for them, it, wouldn't be there.

[01:08:57] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. thank you for bringing it to the attention of the, our audience.

Yeah. We'll see. personalized, WP. Dot com with an SLZ doesn't matter with an SSL Z. with an S is fine, but it's gonna default to the wrong one. But that's fine. You know

[01:09:14] Paul Halfpenny: it like this is the British in US, right? It's like it doesn't look right, but to the rest of the world. you could of course demo your plugin

[01:09:23] Tim Nash: demonstrating that when you go to the, one with the S yes, identifies the correct language and corrects everything for us.

That

[01:09:31] Paul Halfpenny: has occurred to me and now we've shipped and we can work on less important things, I think. I dunno. Jess, what do you think? Z Essel Z Would you feel weird if you saw an S Would you think it's misspelled?

[01:09:43] Jess Frick: No, I would just think you're either, British or Canadian. Oh, do the Canadians use this as well?

Sometimes they do the you in color.

[01:09:52] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Ah, I think they're good on them. Good on them. We've got, we've got a few people in the comments who are Canadian, so let's see if, I got anything to add to that, bombshell, Elliot Sby. We had a few comments about Kinser, broadly like the design was interesting, let's just put it that way.

And then, Elliot says, the plugin looks great. I'll give it a try. I can think of one. Thank you, Elliot. You may find it useful too. Paul, we made you one sale already. Boom. Very much. That's what I'm talking about, right?

[01:10:23] Paul Halfpenny: This is the power of WP Build.

[01:10:27] Nathan Wrigley: Huge red hot. but there we go. Brilliant. And thank you for bringing it to our attention.

so this may not excite you even a bit, but I Gen okay. Rewind. It's not often that I watch something on YouTube and I actually have to like pause and go, wait, what, just happened? And I'm talking about WordPresses stuff, but I watched a, video just before Christmas with, a chap called Pascal Bler.

I had no, no understanding of who he was. He was just absolutely new, but somebody had retweeted something or something like that, and I watched this little video and it was immediately like, how the heck has he done that? Because what he did was he took a jpeg from his Mac and he chucked it into the block editor, and it, and his computer wasn't connected to the internet and it converted itself into, web P or an A v or whatever it might be.

And it was all done inside the, block editor. And, he explained it all, and it obviously all made great common sense, but it, just struck me as a really interesting application of leveraging the tools that are actually built inside the browser that I basically didn't know existed. So a lot of this, conversion of images can be done if you add various bits and pieces in, but he also then went on to demonstrate, live captioning.

Again inside the browser. and I just want to bring it to your attention. I, feel that he's onto something and he thinks that he's onto something as well. So really just listen to the podcast. It's on the WP Taven, it's episode number 105. And I think some of this stuff could go into core, not with all the bells and whistles and transcribing videos in real time, but the ability to select somewhere in the backend and say, can I just have every image as a web P please, no matter what I throw at it, can they always just go into a web p and it doesn't have to phone it out to an, an external service or anything like that.

It all just happens on the fly seamlessly. So anyway, hat tip to. To Pascal. I thought it was pretty remarkable. And, I know he's been really pleased with the reaction that he got. So anyway, maybe I was overreacting. Maybe it's just something that you do on a daily basis, but, I'd never seen it before.

over to you. Did you, was that an amazing thought or was that just yeah, duh. Nathan Sharp.

[01:12:57] Tim Nash: web assembly is fantastic. That's, there you go. There you go. Web assembly is fantastic. very soon you'll be able to get your own personalized Bitcoin miner in web, or in fact, you already can get a Bitcoin miner.

Sitting in web assembly can be done with AI

[01:13:12] Nathan Wrigley: though

[01:13:14] Tim Nash: gets hacked in even slightly could permanently be mining off your, your browser because web assembly is wonderful.

[01:13:22] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. again, you, are a hundred and a thousand times more technical than I am. I didn't know that the web assembly technology could be leveraged to do those kind of tasks and just seeing it happen inside the block editor.

Whereas I've always, the only services I've come against are go into the media library, have some sort of plugin installed, you put it into the media library and you wait, something happens in the background mysteriously, and you don't quite know what's happened. This will do all of that before you've even, saved the post.

It's just happening right inside the post. So I thought it was remarkably clever. and I think something like that could be in core. We talked about, Accessibility, and switching things on and off. And I think that in the future, it's not really accessibility, but the idea of saving bits flying across the internet.

If you can cop down by 40% a jpeg into a web P format, and it can all be done automatically by ticking a box in a setting somewhere that kind of feels like we're into the territory of core. Maybe not, I don't know. Maybe it's not for everybody, but Yeah. Anyway. everybody's

[01:14:29] Paul Halfpenny: got enough power in their laptops these days to be able to cope with all this stuff, right?

the la I'm lucky enough to, have Max, the processing power of those are absolutely ridiculous and they don't use it anywhere near its capacity. but I think the important thing is patchy internet. When you don't have internet, just being able to work offline because there's so many things these days where you just, it's a bit of a struggle to work offline actually.

If you, so like when your internet goes down and then you're like, oh, I'm gonna take the afternoon off work because Internet's gone down. It's I could just work locally, but it just feels like you can't anymore. It's if your internet's not there, that's it.

[01:15:11] Nathan Wrigley: Half a day off. He also introduced this thing, he uses a library called Blur Hash, which I'd never heard of before.

And he instead, so it's like a bit like lazy loading, but if an image is loading, he's got a saved copy of it, which has taken a representation. when you look at like a, if you squint your eyes on an image, you get an impression of what's in there. So it uses CSS to replace the image whilst it's lazy loading with something that is.

Kind of what's gonna come. So in my case, it would be this pasty white circle in the middle, and then, something getting a little bit lighter towards the edges, but you get the impression. But also it means that you don't get any of that cumulative layout shift because he is already inserted something into the page, which is the same height and width, but it's, a couple of k kilobytes of CSS.

And again, I just think he's quite clever, basically. it's very cool. So anyway, go and check that out. That was on the WP Tavern number 105, and there's his videos, on, Twitter. There's a couple of them, but I linked to them can actually,

[01:16:17] Paul Halfpenny: we create that effect to just by taking my glasses off and then putting them back on again.

That's the same as your CSS? Yeah. Yeah, I can do that. It's oh, everything's blurry. Let's see a bit. Ah, that's

[01:16:29] Nathan Wrigley: brilliant. Yeah, I've, become that person who does this. Yeah. When I'm reading things and it's, yeah, it's a fairly recent development for me having to wear Glo and I went the other day and got an upgrade as it were, or a downgrade, I dunno what the, language is, but my eyes are definitely not getting any better.

I blame it all on the screens. Yeah. Need to. Okay. A couple of bits and pieces just before we finish off. Firstly to say that I did a different podcast with James. we talked about, teams in the WordPress space and he has recently conducted this thing called the teams Experience Index. If you're part of a team, much Paul is, and Jess's might be of interest to you, and he he's taking the temperature of what teams are doing well and how they think they're doing.

and it's quite interesting actually. It sounds like there wouldn't be a lot of data points, but he's gathered a lot of data and it is quite interesting to see what can be done better. And you might be able to look at it and say, oh, actually we hadn't even thought of that, in our team. And anyway, go and check that out.

That's quite do you need to be showing your screen? Oh, Don, yeah. I should be showing my screen. Look there. There you go. Squinting That was the problem. yeah, so that's the episode. It's all in audio, so there's not a fat lot to see. Okie dokie. I've put this one in here. I dunno if Tim has, I dunno if Tim's got anything he wants to say, but I threw this in.

It's the, it's the solid WP security or vulner vulnerability report for the last period of time. so Tim, just across your bowels, anything, we need to, be scared of has happened in the recent past. Give us the, give us the state of WordPress, security of the recent past.

[01:18:13] Tim Nash: plugins become vulnerable.

Things become vulnerable. everything is bad. We're all doomed. you should just abandon all hope. Just the usual, all the usual advice, which is update, update. You. Keeping things up to date is always been the advice that's been given. And it's getting more important. the thing that this vulnerability report doesn't show and you don't hear about is the time between exploitation is getting shorter and shorter.

So basically when a vulnerability is released, the time before it's being actively exploited is getting shorter. We used to measure these things in weeks and in some cases months. And so patching once a month was a perfectly reasonable thing to do a few years ago. And then patching once a week was a perfectly reasonable thing to do a year or two ago.

And then last year, patching every couple of days was reasonable. we are getting to a state where we are talking hours. and so if you are not automatically doing updates. You need to have a different strategy. or, and you need to get on that bandwagon. because if you are, sitting there thinking, we're, we do updates once a week, that's no longer good enough.

and you are site and the number of people who say, I haven't been hacked yet.

[01:19:39] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, you might have been. They're just

[01:19:41] Tim Nash: very good. Now they're just playing a game with a really, bad game. Never say that out loud. Never.

[01:19:48] Nathan Wrigley: So, Tim, at the beginning, his bio said professional doom. Speaker. There you, are you.

There you go. You've heard it. Yeah.

[01:19:54] Tim Nash: Just please turn on if you are. No, try turning on automatic updates. Honestly, they are in a better, you're in a much better state with 'em on than you are with them off. There are plenty of tools, there are plenty of people who can help you. but yeah, don't, sit there and go, yeah, we, update once.

Or if you are the sort of person who says We update once a month and it's all been fine this year is going to bite

[01:20:18] Nathan Wrigley: you hard. Okay. I first of all, thanks Rob, Tim, do or, doom, something like that? a long comment. Secondly, and I don't mean to get into this 'cause I, think we talk too much about ai presumably.

AI is gonna be a significant piece of the security landscape in 2024 because although it's fun creating blog posts, I'm guessing that you could also simply ask a piece of AI to, I don't know, modify some something that was usable last week, which had been cut off by a plugin developer or something.

Go and search the repo, look for vulnerabilities. All of that. You get the idea is AI being used to create AI is used

[01:21:03] Tim Nash: by developers. Plenty of developers are now using, using co-pilots or code or any one of the many AI tools. I, you've gonna shock people, but bad actors use the same tools and have the same capabilities.

yeah, I'm not sure the AI threat is any greater from, in that respect. AI will have some base, some benefits, some negatives, but everything's getting faster. That's the key for, I think for a, where we talk about AI and people talk about job losses and all that stuff. What they're actually, when you get to the root down, what would've taken a developer maybe a couple of hours now, takes them a couple of seconds and they don't necessarily need to pass over, go through that many passes to get something that's plausible.

Now for that's the case for an average developer, then that's gonna be the same for a bad actor. Yeah. So everything is just

[01:21:59] Nathan Wrigley: getting faster. Can I just say not everything's getting faster. I'm not getting faster. I feel significantly slower this year already. you can attack my websites because, but you

[01:22:16] Tim Nash: keep them all up to date

[01:22:16] Nathan Wrigley: automatically.

I do keep them all up to, it's all fine. You know what, I do tend to do it on a daily basis and that's given, you've just given me pause for thought. I either need to do that on a more, twice a day or just put everything over to, auto update because the consequences of. Something updating badly.

At least that's a known consequence. Yeah.

[01:22:38] Tim Nash: you are my friend and I don't wish you to be hit by buses. But the last thing is, I don't want to be sitting you coming to visit you in hospital. And that's ha and me sitting there with your grapes and saying, oh, by the way, your website got hacked. 'cause you do not take, you've got hit by the bus, but here you have some great double wha

[01:22:55] Nathan Wrigley: mate.

Yeah. Oh, okay. So anyway, there you go. you heard it here first. You didn't. I do

[01:23:01] Paul Halfpenny: have a point about that though. I just want to query Tim, because we seeing contracts and expectations from clients sometimes that they will want us to run a manual update. process and that, that takes time to, to go through that test every time that there's an update.

And the frequency of updates for plugins are becoming faster and faster and faster. And a number of the updates that we do or see are version bump or, little fix. It'll change in the feature that's gonna fix something. I dunno if there's a middle ground there. It, we have a lot of automatic updates on, we have a lot staged updates on and things like that as well, but, got it.

Trying to deal with that, that, that problem of going, you need to do

[01:23:47] Tim Nash: it, it's painful. And especially as we don't have a nice tracked system. A lot of other software would, you'd have it mentioned, Hey, this is a security vulnerability. It's on a separate track. Yeah. It's a separate patched system and so you could just subscribe to the security track.

Yeah. We don't have that in the WordPress space unfortunately. I think if it's written into a contract, you should manually update our website. That sounds like there's a disconnect between client reality contracts. Yeah. Et cetera. But you can get halfway house so at least you could automate the testing.

Yeah. And this is the same thing I say to everybody. If you're going to come through and do automation, you start with the testing. So you start with, okay, what do you want us to te What should we test? We make sure that the process is really hammered out. Convert those into automated tests. At least then toing an update is only taking minutes, not hours or days.

So we can speed that process up. And once we speed, once we're happy that the automated tests have passed all the time, that's the time to go back to the client and say, actually you are paying us this amount of money for us to slow the process down. Yeah, that's a good one. You're gonna pay us exactly the same amount 'cause we're gonna keep writing these tests for you and we're gonna make the process better.

I think, the problem is that most people don't think the automatic process is better. They somehow think a human pressing the button is better. Yeah. And worries. Part of that's because agencies have told them that's the case. When an agency sells their processes, they sell that as the, as a selling feature.

and good agencies are finding are the one you've finding like yourselves, where you've got the mixture. You can slowly but surely then bring that into the fully automated and sell that as a selling point in itself. That, look, we write tests. That's where our skillset comes in. Our skillset is making sure that things don't break, and when they do break, we can fix them quickly.

We are not, however hired to press a button.

[01:25:50] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I'm so good at pressing buttons. Could somebody hire me to press buttons? I'll do that.

[01:25:58] Paul Halfpenny: it's interesting though. it's it's like a step change for some companies to go to a more agile way of working where they may have been used to more on-prem systems or, static systems that have a, release cycle where it's three months you're gonna get your security update for the three months and you're gonna go through that release patch and test, sorry, do it all way around.

Patch test and release. Not release, first,

[01:26:26] Tim Nash: release, fix, panic, run. Yeah.

[01:26:31] Paul Halfpenny: Yeah, rollback. but the, I'm very much into CI and, getting stuff out there as quickly as possible and if it breaks, fix it as quickly as possible and get a new one out rather than don't really like rollbacks and, and it's, it is trying to find that, happy ground really, I think with.

With clients that have, significant uptime SLAs and just have these expectations or, have these, it, it, generally comes from somebody in IT or somebody's or legal come down the road and they say, oh, we want this. And then it's like trying to show them,

[01:27:06] Tim Nash: it's not necessarily the best one when they have an SLA It makes it easier because you can basically say we have to, we can up the SLA because we're doing the updates automatically.

Yeah, So you can, almost use the SLAs against the,

[01:27:19] Paul Halfpenny: until the update breaks it because it's automated update. So

[01:27:25] Tim Nash: they got released last week, you've got rollbacks and all the things As long as the automation's working properly. Yeah. Yeah. You should be instantaneous on the rollback and that you should be checking for these conflicts and the testing, at that scale.

For your average person, just setting your automatic updates and then and leaving them. Just do it. If your website's down for an hour, it's not the end of the world where we're talking about up times of 99.9999. We need to build good tooling, but that's what you pay the agency to do. That's what you pay you to do, and that's where you really make your money.

which is good 'cause that keeps agencies

[01:28:03] Nathan Wrigley: in business. I like that. I like what Tim said there. That's like turning a, glass that was half empty into a glass, which was half full. That was a terrible analogy. It was something adjacent to that. Anyway, but yeah, either that Paul or just run 'em over with a boss.

Oh, yeah. No, that's it. you and Tim will, bring the grapes and rescue the situation. It'll all be good. Your fight's come

[01:28:27] Paul Halfpenny: down as it puts a grape in your mouth. Your, that's right. Your

[01:28:31] Nathan Wrigley: go, your site's gone down, but it's cons. I know you're losing a thousand pounds a minute, but as a consolation, have a grape.

It's, it's all fine. Speechless very quickly. state of open con 24 is gonna be happening, in London this year, February 6th to the seventh. Dunno if that's of interest to anybody, but it's obviously, open source more than just WordPress. And I'm gonna make this the last one. who, we were talking about accessibility.

who honestly, who doesn't want an accessible fart machine? Watch the video. It is so genuinely lovely. It is not about making farting noises. It is, but it is also about empowering. in this case, children, who, let's face it, every kid enjoys a fart noise. It was a, it, the video's about empowering children with technology to be able to do that joke, that every kid wants to do.

And it's just, it's lovely. Somebody building the technology so that you can fart. How fabulous. And that's where we're gonna end it. there's no finer, finer weight to come to an end than the fart. So that's it. Accessible fart. Yeah, an accessible fart, which is, which is I think where we all wanna go in 2024.

[01:29:51] Paul Halfpenny: What, is an accessible fart is, it's

[01:29:53] Nathan Wrigley: so literally they built an Arduino.

[01:29:55] Paul Halfpenny: No, I know. So with that, but just in conceptually, what does an accessible fart mean? Is there such a thing as an

accessible,

[01:30:01] Tim Nash: a fart for all? Yes.

[01:30:02] Nathan Wrigley: It's, I think it's, I think it's gotta be loud and very smart so that we can all, everyone

[01:30:08] Jess Frick: is welcome to this fart.

Oh, it's gone so south. You can all walk into this fart.

[01:30:15] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, the hole has been dug. Now we're shoveling more out of it. that's it.

[01:30:25] Jess Frick: Again, Tim, with the unfortunate facts.

[01:30:28] Tim Nash: That's right.

[01:30:29] Nathan Wrigley: That's right. It descends into chaos as it usually does. thank you so much to the three participants. We've got, Paul, half Penny, we've got Tim Nash, we've got the co-host. Got it right. Jess Frick. thank you to those of you that made the, time to come here and do this live.

I really appreciate that. Quite a lot of comments. I'm sorry we didn't get to. Quite a lot of them. And Jess is like itching. Like where's the hands? Where Hands and the working out. Working out. I'm out hands. Everybody cut the hands out. Come on. Come on Tim. How old out? Yeah. yes. There they are. Oh, that's brilliant.

I had somebody on Twitter the other day like, what's with the hands? And I said, it's funny they didn't think it was funny and it's tradition. I ran them over with a bus but I didn't bring the grapes. Okay. That's it. That's all we've got. I know.

[01:31:14] Tim Nash: Always take the grapes. Yeah,

[01:31:17] Nathan Wrigley: always take the grapes.

That is all that we've got time for, this week. If the graphic works and we get 10 seconds holding banner, great. If not, I'll see you guys in a few seconds time, but thank you for joining us. Really appreciate it. Take it easy. See you next week. Bye.