[00:00:21] Nathan Wrigley: Hello there and welcome to the WP Builds podcast, once again, you have reached episode number 336 entitled Roman Axelrod. On standardizing or web development workflows. It was published on Thursday, the 27th of July, 2023.
My name's Nathan Wrigley. And before we get onto the interview with Roman, just a few bits of housekeeping.
The first thing to mention is that I have begun a four parts, probably four part series with Patrick Posner. It's a live webinar series. We're doing it, hopefully every Tuesday, but it was Tuesday last week, and hopefully it will be. Tuesday this week as well. It's all about creating static sites with WordPress.
He is an expert at this being the developer of the simply static plugin. Over the four episodes. We're going to be showing you how you can use that plugin for free, in some cases. There are some pro features, but mainly for free. How to create a static site, how that might differ from headless and how you can save yourself a very large amount of money on hosting. Exactly what's involved on all of that. You can find the episodes that we've already created in our archives. If you go to the WP Builds .com website, and you look at the top menu, there's an archive section and we're storing all of these in the final menu item. It's just called demos and they will all be in there.
If you want to join us live, it's going to be happening on Tuesdays. There's a link on the WP Builds.com homepage. There's a little card there with some calendar links as well. So you can find it there.
But also, if you want to join us for a different live show, we've got our, this week in word pressure. We do that every Monday. It would be very, very nice. If you wanted to join us there. 2:00 PM every Monday joined by some international guests and international commenters. Please join us, spread the word about it. As always the live shows are at WP Builds .com forward slash live.
Another thing to mention is that we are launching in September mid to late September the sixth round of the page builders summit. The page builder summit has been a hugely successful summit, talking about all things. Page builders. That includes products like Elementor, Beaver Builder, Divi. Bricks, Brizy and a whole bunch of others. But it also includes Gutenberg's or if you're a Gutenberg fan, do not fear, there's content in there.
What we're doing at the moment, though, we're on the outreach for sponsors. So if you are in any way, connected with a WordPress company that might be interested in getting yourself in front of a WordPress audience, head to page builder summit.com forward slash sponsor, and you can find out all about it there. And if you've got any comments or anything, you can DM me on Twitter @ WPBuilds. Or there's a chat widget in the bottom right. And there's also a form on that page as well, but we'd be really keen to hear from you. Please, if you know somebody in the space who you think might be interested, feel free to share that. That would be most welcome.
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Okay. What have we got for you today? Well I did say at the top of the show, we've got an episode entitled Roman Axelrod on standardizing web development workflows. Well, in this episode, Roman who joins me from Israel, talks about the fact that in the past, he and his agency have been frustrated by handing out design work to freelancers. And the fact that the work that's come back from a whole bunch of different freelancers has been remarkably different in quality.
The way that they implement the code, and the designs, and the buttons. There's no standard process. So he's building a tool, he's calling it dev tool, and that tool is intended to make it possible to interact in a way that makes it possible to standardize that workflow. Standardize the work that your freelancers give back.
He is at pains to point out that this is a work in progress, and he really desperately would like people listening to the show to reach out to him, to give him some ideas about how the tool works.
So in the podcast, he explains how the tool works. And also the fact that he is really, really keen to hear from you. I hope that you enjoy the podcast.
I am joined on the podcast today by Roman Axelrod. Hello, Roman!
[00:05:09] Roman Axelrod: Hi, how are you?
[00:05:10] Nathan Wrigley: Very good, thank you. It's lovely to have you on the call today. Roman is going to talk to us today about a tool which is being built. Let's put it that way. I think it's fair to say that Roman doesn't want to portray this as the finished product, but he's keen to get it into the ears of a bunch of WordPress people and see whether there's any interest for this tool.
So we're going to talk about that tool, explain that tool, how it works, what it does, how you might get in touch with Roman and all of that kind of stuff. But before we do that, Roman I wonder if you wouldn't mind just telling us a little bit about yourself, how long you've been working with WordPress.
What kind of work do you do? Where do you live? Whatever you want to tell us about yourself.
[00:05:51] Roman Axelrod: Yeah, sure. My name is Roman Ekseroth. I'm a web developer from Israel. And me and my wife, Anastasia, we run a small web development agency. The name is Axweb and my part of responsibility is taking care of the technical side of it when Anastasia is responsible for the business part. Our clients are mid size and enterprise companies from tech field, like cybersecurity companies, IT companies, and we provide technical services to marketing teams of these companies.
So in general, we're dealing with building websites, create landing pages, set up integrations with CRMs. Regular maintenance. And actually we help marketing department with their daily challenges. So we launched our agency at five years ago, I think, and this is what we do. And this is the first time I'm actually started to deal with WordPress five years ago, so I was not aware, not of the product, not of the communities that a lot of the automatic.
Which is a huge part and was really interesting to discover the entire field of, this kind of web development.
[00:07:07] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it's amazing when you when you actually prize open that can and stare inside, it's pretty amazing. The depth and the breadth of the WordPress community, all the different things that are going on, not just from a technical side, the events side and the social side and all of that as well.
It's pretty remarkable.
[00:07:24] Roman Axelrod: Yeah. So I think I will try to describe our daily challenges that we face and problems and solutions that we actually figure out. So we deal with absolutely different kinds of websites. In most cases, clients who contact us, they already have an existing platform that they are working on.
Some websites are based on WordPress and classic, page templates based on advanced custom fields. Some of websites are based on no code tool, visual builders like Elementor, Bricks, Oxygen. There are some cases where we have an opportunity to rebuild and set up everything from scratch.
But in this case, we usually like to use Gutenberg. We usually try to educate the client and use modern tools. We explain that this is fast. This is stable. Like the entire WordPress community and the field is going there. So we have mixed websites. For example, we have, we can have a website that based on Gutenberg, like main pages, homepage, company pages, and so on.
But for landing pages, we suggest clients to use Elementor because it's fast. We can quickly figure out some, landing page for the campaign and go. So we think how to create comfortable place for a client where we have like main pages and landing pages. We have clients who work on different platforms, not only WordPress.
For example, we have a HubSpot CMS. Yeah. And there are some clients who have multiple websites across multiple platforms, which is also a huge problem, which I will explain later. So as you can understand, we deal with multiple techniques of building web pages on a daily basis. And we, as a business, we have to adapt our service to our clients needs.
This is a problem. So at the very beginning of our business, it was only me and Anastasia, and we were delivering everything by ourselves. Now, as a business that provides this kind of service, we started to think how we can break, bring new employees, how we can bring developers who has all this knowledge people who are familiar with these platforms and all these page building techniques.
Usually these kinds of people, they run their own web development agencies and they are very expensive to hire. So it might be problematic. So we started to think what is the most complex part of our daily work? And usually the most repetitive type of work. is the process of building pages based on provided design.
It requires to set, a block of time where you can focus on the task. And convert design to web page especially when you have a new website to develop, it can take full days and weeks, depends on the complexity of the website. So usually people suggest to outsource this part of work and, hire some contractor, freelancer who are already familiar with the, with this aspects of work.
But then we face another two kind of a problems and the first one is related to coding styles and organization of the code is where developers have different coding habits, some of them use classes, other use global functions. Some people mix business logic with templates or put CSS inside, PHP code.
So it's not good for a long run. It's hard to maintain and it's going to create a mess in the future. And it's, it just going to create a lot of issues for the client.
[00:11:36] Nathan Wrigley: if you if you, I'll put the, I'll put the link in the show notes to your website, but you, the website is axe web. com. And the thing that we're going to be talking about today is the dev tool. And there's a video right at the top there, which explains this really well. It explains your.
The scenario that you've been through of basically deciding we want to speed up our agency's work. What's one of the pieces that we can do? We can hire out to third party designers and developers the work, but then as you've just described, what comes back is a... There's a soup of different ways of doing things, different techniques, different coding styles, and that created a mess for you, which is a bit of a
[00:12:18] Roman Axelrod: Absolutely. Another issue that we faced at some level is That we can't provide access to freelancers to clients platforms as an agency, you know We sign NDAs and other types of documents getting external freelancers into the project might be risky in terms of security we can't simply share, code base and clients platform.
It's too risky So we also deal with multiple platforms that is another case, there are some platforms that don't have the solution for staging development. In WordPress, you usually create a staging website that you can share with some freelancers, but there are platforms that don't have this kind of functionality and you have to invite people into production environment.
And from there, they are able to create, sub pages and the pages that are not connected to the website yet, but they are live.
[00:13:19] Nathan Wrigley: Mm
[00:13:19] Roman Axelrod: So it's awful tricky situation. So our strategy was to hire people. Of course, as an agency, we have to grow, we have to bring new people. So we decided to focus on front end developers who can deliver HTML layouts.
We started to split our projects into smaller tasks. We, for example, we receive a design from a client, we review it, and we split the logic into sections and reusable patterns. Developers don't work on pages anymore. They work on sections that can support different design variation based on content.
It's pretty like a Gutenberg, you have sections that can include multiple themes. Let's say themes kind of variations. We also realized the importance of documentation of projects. Like we started to create a technical documentation, set rules, and started to learn more about design systems.
For people who don't familiar with the term design system, it's actually a documentation of existing design components, let's say buttons. Links, font sizes, headings, and so on. I don't know, cards of articles. It's also a component. It's also can be included in design system. So design system, it's a place where team members can review all existing elements and actually understand what they have.
People who work on the project can share their notes, like sizes, they can describe some technical stuff, break points and so on. And the usage of documentation and design system in a project create a standardization in a process. So this is what we actually tried, to focus. And we started to focus on the standardization of our processes.
We started to work on organized workflow, a pipeline of steps and actions. The term standardization itself includes multiple topics. It's a simplicity, consistency, quality control, scalability. For example, simplicity instead of dealing with huge projects like I described, you split it down into smaller sections.
And when the process is simple it's also cost effective because you can bring more juniors and consistency is also when you have like same approach over multiple clients, you deliver your work faster because, we were at the point where each website was different and it was really problematic, especially when you have multiple platforms and each platform has its own rules.
So finally, we figured all these problems out, and we developed our own internal tool, which we call DevTool, and this tool allows, this tool is a place where developers build sections by following strict requirements and perform different kind of tests. Developers are able to review the behavior of the section in different breakpoints.
There are able to perform pixel perfect match of the design, to make sure that design fits design and implementation of design on the page fits, clients requirements. They are also able to review and test different kind of variations, for example, different amount of content. Sometimes you have short heading, large heading, you have images with different kind of resolutions, just to make sure nothing breaks out.
And this actually, this set of tests and rules improves the quality of final result. Because we're able to test the section, the HTML layout, even before it goes to production. So when developers work in development tool, they work in isolated environment. That is connected to client platform, client's platform, they have followed these strict rules and from there, there are developers are able to release sections to client's platform, to client's library.
If you go to our website as Nathan, as you mentioned, we have there some visualizations of the processes. For example, we have, in an image where you have this kind of a toolbar and when you work with this toolbar you can run different kind of test scenarios. Have you seen that?
[00:18:06] Nathan Wrigley: I've seen the, I've seen inside the video I've seen you working through it. So I can't in all honesty say that I remember that bit specifically, but if you showed it on the video, then yes, I saw it.
[00:18:20] Roman Axelrod: Yeah. So the idea of the development tool is that... It's actually based on plugins. This is how we want to provide it to people. And each plugin is responsible for different kinds of tests. For example, if you want to use, if you want to provide responsiveness testing, you can connect the responsiveness plugin.
If you want to have pixel perfect match of the design to final result we have this plugins that allows us to perform this action and we plan to release the development tool as a free tool, as open source. I'm not sure if open source or just the free, but we want people to play around with this and we want to provide the documentation and explain how people can develop different kinds of plugins.
So they can implement their own tests. Now, development tool is one part of our solution. The second part is a cloud space. Cloud space is related to business and agency owners. And actually cloud space is responsible for hosting developed sections and the entire design system there. Imagine a place where developers publish their work and all team members are able to review it.
So this is our kind of a business solution. Most important feature of cloud space. Is that we able to connect the collection of developed sections to multiple platforms since, yeah, so since we host all this, all the code, all the source code, we are able to adapt. We are able to create bundles, deliverable bundles for each platform.
For example, if you have. A WordPress website that is based on Elementor, we are able to generate a widget for Elementor and synchronize with your website. If you use Gutenberg and we are able to create a block, a custom block that you can then we are also able to create a pattern with multiple variations.
[00:21:03] Nathan Wrigley: Right.
[00:21:04] Roman Axelrod: tools like Astro, React, Next.
js, and I think, I'm pretty sure we can move, use the same ideas, same technology to adapt sections to these platforms. Um,
[00:21:19] Nathan Wrigley: That's amazing. Can I just, so let me just sum up what I think
[00:21:24] Roman Axelrod: yeah,
[00:21:24] Nathan Wrigley: just said, and let's see if I've got the orientation right. So really the tool that we're talking about, DevTool, has come about as a result of. Your agency's work and little problems that you've had along the way, where you've wished to grow the agency, but not necessarily by employing a bunch of developers permanently, rather you've gone out and look for third party developers, freelancers, if you like who are doing that work for you, but it's been difficult.
Because there wasn't a process previously, it had been difficult to make everything standard. So that the things that came back to you were all very different. So you've designed a tool, which firstly pointing towards the developers, the freelancers, you can show them the style guidelines for everything.
So you can show them, okay, this is what all the titles will look like. This is the color palette. This is what the, I don't know, but you imagine anything that might go on the website. You can show that to them. They can then do the work and you can obviously, if they come back and it's not the standard that you were looking for, you'd be able to say, but look, we showed you what we were supposed to be getting back, but they in turn.
Can upload their designs to the cloud. And this is the bit that I'm possibly not got straight in my head from the cloud that you're building. It is then possible to suck them into your, in our case WordPress, but it may be HubSpot as well. You can suck them into your WordPress website. These finished designs in the form of a Gutenberg block or an elemental widget.
So the design is done. somewhere else, and then you can suck it in to the website so that it's ready to go. But at the same time, you can also carry out tests on those to see if it matches like you described there, pixel perfect or whatever else it may be. Have I got that about right?
[00:23:28] Roman Axelrod: Exactly right. Everything was, yeah
[00:23:31] Nathan Wrigley: rare.
[00:23:33] Roman Axelrod: right. Yeah.
[00:23:34] Nathan Wrigley: So that's absolutely phenomenal.
[00:23:37] Roman Axelrod: hmm.
[00:23:38] Nathan Wrigley: So the idea then you, I guess at the moment, you are looking for people to, to use this tool. It sounds from the conversation that we had. Prior to recording that you're, this tool is, it's not as you, it's not quite finished yet. You're still working on it and trying to figure out how it might be useful for people.
Again, is that right? Is that the place where you're at the moment?
[00:24:01] Roman Axelrod: Absolutely. For we use this approach and this tool in our own business. Like we are using this for the last year, we delivered and maintain about 150 sections over 12 clients and each section, of course, it has multiple variations. So if I make some calculation, we have about 1, 000 variations. At this moment, the product is on early stage and we are doing our best to organize it.
For other people. So for example, at this point of time, we created everything to, support our own needs. But when we released it to people, we probably going to face some questions and how this work and how that's work. So this is something that we're trying to organize. We want to provide a clear documentation.
We want to provide an ability to upload new plugins to DevTool so people can create their own tests. And I will give you an example. Let's say you are building a website and you you ignore accessibility thing. So the developers, the developer who is building HTML layouts, let's say the developer use uses only divs.
[00:25:28] Nathan Wrigley: right,
[00:25:28] Roman Axelrod: Someone can create a plugin that goes over the entire code with some third party service and kind of pop up some notifications. Whoop, you have to use a side tag. Whoop, you have to use picture tag. Wrap, wrap your images in picture tag. This kind of notifications, guide, guidelines for developers.
There are so many cases that I see we can connect Lighthouse, which is a, performance metric a lot, some kind of guides for the developers. There are websites that don't use pixels units. They use RAMs or EM to make, the entire layout fluid. When you resize the window, everything shrinks down.
We're pretty nice practice.
[00:26:25] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.
[00:26:26] Roman Axelrod: Yes,
[00:26:27] Nathan Wrigley: So
[00:26:28] Roman Axelrod: however,
[00:26:29] Nathan Wrigley: go on, take, carry on.
[00:26:32] Roman Axelrod: However, we don't know where the tool is going to be in the next future. I'm sure we're going to pivot. Maybe we will figure out some business model and we will try. To make a kind of a product and maybe a business from the entire tool.
But we are so open for healthy communication with people. If this is something that sounds interesting to anyone, like design systems, standardization of processes. I am so happy to talk and have some kind of conversation ideas, maybe business opportunities. Also, there is another interesting topic, like the entire world is going to, no code tools, like even Gutenberg element or AI coming soon, that's going to be responsible for the entire process, maybe.
And there are so many businesses who still like creating HTML templates, WordPress page templates, and they don't plan, they don't plan to migrate to new, fancy ways. I don't know where the future is going to be.
[00:28:24] Nathan Wrigley: But But you are keen to, to get people to your website communicating with you to see if you can together, figure out how this tool could be of use. Can I just be clear, I'm just gonna rewind in my head. Is this a bit like, so on, on the developer side, you can onboard, I guess you have onboarded.
All of the different people your freelance staff, if you like, and then does it, then do those designs, the code that's been written, does that does that then show up in a way that you can edit it? So I'm thinking something a bit like GitHub, if so that you can go in and you can make comments or you could say, no, I'd like you to make this accessible.
Please, you haven't got the picture tags in and so on. So is that the kind of process you iterate through it? And then once it's been signed off, it's finished, that's the solution. We're happy with that row. You can then sign it off and then send it to the website or go to the website and suck it down and implement it.
[00:29:32] Roman Axelrod: hmm. All right. So let me describe the entire process. We create an empty block in the system. We call it blocks. Like a section. And we upload only the design. We each block, each section, it has some kind of Properties. One of these is a design file and snapshots of the design in multiple resolutions, for example, desktop, tablet, mobile.
We create this blank section. And we set a status. We have statuses for each section. The status, for example, is ready for the development. We also created the small, like a simple website for people who work with us. And these people are able to go to this website and see what sections they have to develop.
They look at section. There are some complex sections like sliders, timelines where you scroll and things are animations. You're probably familiar with this kind of sections. And there are also simple sections like text on the left side, image from the right side. So freelancer, a developer, is able to choose.
Publish button will release a new version to the cloud. From the cloud, we are able to review the result. And, we can add, as you mentioned, we can add some kind of comment. Usually we, we use some chat system or we send an email, Hey, can you tweak this? So we can move it to production. Developer is able to release another version and we actually were able to roll back if we need.
It's a kind of, as you mentioned, it's. Pretty, the logic is pretty similar to GitHub and Git work. Yeah, so we have multiple variations. We have the entire history of work, and when we have a stable variation, stable version, we are able to synchronize it with, let's say, a workers website. On the workers part.
We have a plugin that we call ax WebP Sync or something like this, and we. This is how we do. We able to send requests from WordPress website to cloud space and downloads a required bundle required version of bundle. This is how it goes. For example, we have clients let's say we delivered some section.
Everything is good. Like in a few months, client can contact us and ask for some additional changes. Maybe they would like to, update some, add some animations or something like this. So we do that by releasing a new version and then synchronizing the website
[00:32:49] Nathan Wrigley: Right.
[00:32:49] Roman Axelrod: Yeah. And also if we discover some bug, we can really quick, quickly to roll back the, this section.
Another like benefit of this approach, having all the design, all the sections on cloud space. Is that you can sync multiple platforms. For example, as I mentioned, we have clients who run WordPress website as their main website, and we have clients who, the same client runs a HubSpot CMS for landing pages. Don't ask me why. But but they do that because they have, yeah, they have different departments. This is the idea. For example, the marketing department is working on the on the main website, which is WordPress. And there is another campaigns advertisement department who is working on the online pages and they don't communicate
[00:33:49] Nathan Wrigley: right yeah, I
[00:33:51] Roman Axelrod: So we are able to synchronize the same section with both of these platforms. So both of departments enjoy the same design system and consistent consistency of the brand over multiple places. Yeah.
[00:34:06] Nathan Wrigley: That's really interesting. So in a sense, it's agnostic of the platform that you're using. You've mentioned, you mentioned WordPress. I think on the website, I remember seeing Shopify being mentioned as well. And so it's agnostic. You're basically just, the developers that are creating these designs.
Writing the code and then you are sucking in the code. Let's say that I'm on a WordPress website and I've just accepted a bundle. How then do I use that bundle? How do I then go from it being something that I've downloaded from the cloud? Your cloud? How do I then get those on a page? Do I do they become available blocks or how does it work?
[00:34:50] Roman Axelrod: Exactly. You're going to see available blocks and available patterns inside. Yeah. Inside the, collection of patterns.
[00:35:00] Nathan Wrigley: And so presumably that would have some kind of naming convention, and I would know that. Okay. And also just to go back, it seems from everything that you've said the word section. Lots and lots of times. Is that because that's how you're breaking down the design. So rather than going for okay, we're designing the homepage, you're breaking the homepage down into, let's say seven different sections.
You might have a header, a footer, a call to action, a, I don't know, image left, text, image right, text left, that kind of thing. And so that then fits perfectly with a row, say, in a page builder, or a row inside of Gutenberg.
[00:35:44] Roman Axelrod: This is the logic. You're absolutely correct. I'm a web developer actually, and I didn't have I didn't spend time to finalize the terminology of each aspect. So probably in the future, we will start calling it blocks, or maybe we'll figure out some other, like some people call the thing as a strip.
[00:36:14] Nathan Wrigley: Okay.
[00:36:15] Roman Axelrod: Yeah, so
[00:36:16] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I think blocks is I suppose in the WordPress sense, you might collide with what everybody else is calling a block. It might be different, but I like rows. Stick with no, no. You said sections stick with sections. Everybody gets sections. Yeah, that makes sense. We can find out about this.
Like I said, I'll put a link in the show notes, but your website is axe web. com forward slash dev hyphen tool.
[00:36:42] Roman Axelrod: yes.
[00:36:43] Nathan Wrigley: Now, clearly, you've built this, it works for your team, but you're, from everything that you've said, you're after some more eyeballs on this, and possibly to figure out whether it's something that other people would need as well.
It sounds to me like there's gonna be a bunch of people who would be curious about this. If they are... How do they make contact with you? Are you going to hand out an email or do you like, do you follow Twitter closely? How can people get in touch with you, Roman?
[00:37:11] Roman Axelrod: Yeah. So I'm pretty new or on Twitter only because of the tool, but you can find me there, Roman X wrote, and that's it. You can also, if you can't find me there, you can go to our website and leave a contact form submission.
[00:37:29] Nathan Wrigley: Okay.
[00:37:30] Roman Axelrod: yeah, I think this is the way.
[00:37:31] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, perfect. Go to the website. It'll be linked in the show notes. There's a contact us section. There's a, there's a form there that you can fill out like everywhere else on the web. And and hopefully. This podcast will have got you some interest and some people will reach out.
Roman, it seems like a really interesting tool. I wish you all the best with it. I hope that some people reach out and help you come to some decisions about where to go next with it. It sounds like it's got some, a use case for people who are in the exact same position that you are trying to grow their agency through the process of freelancers, but maybe frustrated with the way the workflow works thereafter.
Excellent fun having you on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Roman. We
[00:38:17] Roman Axelrod: Thank you very much. And bye bye.
[00:38:18] Nathan Wrigley: Well, I hope that you enjoyed the podcast. Very nice to hear from Roman all about his new dev tool. As you'll have noticed during the show, and in the preamble to the show, he's very keen to hear from you, and hopefully if some of you have got some nice ideas, you will be able to shape the direction of the tool.
So you can find the links in the show notes, head to WP Builds .com. Search for episode number 336. And the links will be there.
The WP Builds podcast is brought to you today by GoDaddy Pro. GoDaddy Pro the home of managed WordPress hosting that includes free domain, SSL and 24 7 support. Bundle that with The Hub by GoDaddy pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients and get 30% off new purchases. You can find out more by heading to go.me forward slash WP builds. And we do thank GoDaddy Pro for their continuing ongoing support of the WP Builds podcast.
Okay. As I mentioned at the top of the show, don't forget, we've got a show with Patrick Posner, all about making static sites. Join us on Tuesdays. WP builds.com forward slash live. Typically I think it will be two or 3:00 PM, but there are links on the WP builds.com homepage. Also we'll be back for this week in WordPress, every Monday, same URL forward slash life. If not, we'll see you next Thursday for a chats between David Waumsley and I.
All that it remains for me to do now is to say, stay safe, I hope you have a good week. Bye-bye for now.