This Week in WordPress #195

[00:00:00] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this weekend. WordPress episode number 195. Entitled Steve Jobs wore dark pattern. T-shirt. It was recorded on Monday the 7th of February, 2022, my name's Nathan Wrigley. And as always, I'll be joined by some WordPress notable guests this week. It's peach and airy Machek Palmokowski and REM Costa Reese.

And because it's all about WordPress, guess what we're going to talk about first stop 5.9 core contributions, statistics who is helping build WordPress core, which companies do they work for. And so on, we also talk about the enormous value, the monetary value of the WordPress ecosystem. It might be significantly bigger than you think there's a new idea floating around of having a block protocol.

So that blocks not just WordPress blocks, but blocks anywhere on the internet could be into. Operable. Do you like the idea of that? A German court has find a website owner for using the Google fonts. And because of that, they've given the IP address of visitors over to Google, and that is against the GDPR.

There's a long discussion to be had there. We get into the topic of accessibility because I did a podcast episode this week with Amber Hines. And we also introduce you to a new tool called Penn pot. It's all coming up next on this week in WordPress. Good afternoon. Hello? Hello. Hello. Wherever you are in the universe, hopefully you're doing well and you are happy.

You have joined us for episode number 1 9 595, or this week in WordPress show. Very glad to have you along. Feel free to drop us a. A cheeky little comment in, depending on where you are watching from, we have a few little bits of housekeeping that we need to do each and every week before I introduce the guests.

And that is to say to you that if you are watching this over on Facebook, which some of you do, then you have to go through this extra little step. You have to go to no, that's not it. It's this one. There we go. You have to go to chat.restream.io forward slash FB. Otherwise we don't know who you are now.

You may very well wish to post incendiary comments and be anonymous. And if that's the case, that's fine. You don't need to go through that step. But if you don't want to go through that step, because you don't like giving Facebook information, then you can just write your name at the beginning of the comment.

Yeah. Also feel free if you've got this on a screen over to your left or to your right, and you're not really paying attention to it, feel free to do that. But why not? Why not take a moment. Go to WP builds.com forward slash live. That's where we're broadcasting this. That's probably the easiest way because it's open to everybody copy and paste the URL, stick it in Twitter and say, stop what you're doing.

Come and watch this show because that would be nice. I've got a few of you coming in and posting your comments. I appreciate it. Three lovely guests on the show today. Where should we begin? Let's begin. Let's begin with Peacher. How are you doing picture?

[00:03:19] Piccia Neri: Really well, very happy to be here. It'd been

[00:03:21] Nathan Wrigley: a water.

Yeah it's been a while since you've been on this show, but it hasn't been so long since we had you on the WP Builds. Cause we had you on our little, yeah, we had you on our little UI show a couple of weeks ago, but Peacher is a U X expert and global speaker. She helps businesses and agencies win on the web by putting users at the center.

She loves educating designers and developers in the best UX and UI practices via workshops, courses and talks. Pietra is also a UX project lead on international projects at under Maverick cloud ways, a cloud hosting platform. And in a former life, she was a full-on creative spending, her days, creating images.

Do you miss those days?

[00:04:07] Piccia Neri: Sometimes. Yeah. It was. It had these bad moments as well as good ones, but yeah,

[00:04:18] Nathan Wrigley: on the whole happy where you are now.

[00:04:21] Piccia Neri: Exactly. I'm very happy now

[00:04:22] Nathan Wrigley: as well. Good. Good. Thanks for joining us today. We also have Machek please forgive me if I butcher your surname, I did practice it and then I've forgotten what I practice pile most ski that's perfect.

[00:04:37] Maciek Palmowski: Really? Yes. And when I heard, how could we use it? Pronounced magic. I was really impressed. Really? I felt that you were practicing like, like the whole week.

[00:04:47] Nathan Wrigley: That's the end of the show this week. It's not going to get any better. Thanks for joining us. We'll see. Honestly, it's downhill for me. Brilliant.

Brilliant. I feel very chuffed. Let's introduce Machek is a WordPress developer working at a body. You can find [email protected], by the way, as a WordPress ambassador, after hours, he spent most of his time trying to find interesting news for w the WP owls newsletter or cycling it's one or the other, by the way, if you don't subscribe to WP owls, you must stop what you're doing and go and subscribe there.

Your like you put a lot of effort into that. Don't you? You guys it's brilliant. Well done.

[00:05:28] Maciek Palmowski: That's really nice

[00:05:29] Nathan Wrigley: to hear. Where do we find it? Give us the URL's

[00:05:33] Maciek Palmowski: WP hours.com. Sadly, the.com was already taken. Yeah.

[00:05:40] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. It's a blow. Anyway, go and check it out. It's a fabulous, and the Twitter stream is always full of stuff.

There's loads of content coming out and and you should go and check out body works as well, because, we actually did a podcast, which I'll maybe show in a little bit in a little while and we, I don't know how this is going to go. We have rent gusta Reese. Who's going to be introduced by Machek.

[00:06:05] Maciek Palmowski: Rankles before our, before, before we started said that he has a new role at surf bowl. He's working there as a Steve jobs with sex appeal.

[00:06:21] Nathan Wrigley: Nice. A hopeful note that tell us about this in your own words, who you are and what you do. What is your new role?

[00:06:31] Remkus de Vries: I so actually Changed in late October last year, I switched from a position of circles from focusing on partners and marketing, mostly to focusing on people and also, still getting an a and M and partners, but a head of people as the official role now.

And the main reason for this is where we're hiring. Essentially, we're growing fast and we need people so that that deserves a concern.

[00:07:06] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Nice. You can check that [email protected] and over there, you'll find lots and lots of information about what they provide and why they are different.

But thank you for joining us today. Rimkus let's just have a quick look. See if there's anybody joining us. Peacher, Peacher, Neri. She's yeah. She's we've also got Elliot. Thank you. Thanks for joining us. Hello? That's right. We've got Courtney who says hello to you and that's me. We've got married.

From GoDaddy, Peter who joined us regularly, he's in the U S and Peter says she's already signed up to WPL so there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Oh and REMCOs yeah, very good to see. We're all of a CNL dose. Okay. Let's get stuck into what we're doing today. This is our website, WP belts.com, blah, blah, blah.

There's links, buttons, things you can press forms. You can fill out and put your name into, and we'll send you stuff about WordPress, but. Dwell on that. What we want to do is talk about WordPress and the people of WordPress. This is the first bit we got this week. This is over Jean-Baptiste or dress. I apologize if I've butchered that name as well, but I will put some show notes together, but which will come out tomorrow.

And this is a little survey. I think he's been doing it for he, she, I don't know, has been doing it for several years and it's a nice little break down with graphics about who is contributing to make the WordPress project. If memory serves. Cause I read this last week, this is simply. Core contributions, nothing else.

So it's not talking about, marketing or any of the other teams, it's simply what is committed to call translations and so on yet, it's just the cost of thanks for him. Cause yeah, and I think it's quite interesting. I focusing on 5.9, which has obviously just hit us, I'll just go through a few top lines statistics, which I thought was interesting.

And then you can fill us in you guys about whether you thought, whether you thought this was a representation that was laudable. Something to be changed, something to be, modified in some way, 624 people come in from 54 different countries from 159 different companies. That's the kind of bottom line.

If you can go and find this, you'll see these. Nice little graphics where they put everything in easy to consume circles. So the graph that we're looking at the moment, for example, it's country racking by number of contributions. And I bet you can't figure out what the number one country was in terms of contributions.

It was the U S 1,169, and then it drops off pretty quick. After that, to be honest in second place, it looks like it was Russia with 200 and Nope, 330 in third place was Australia, which is considering the population of Australia is a pretty mean fee. I think the last time I checked, it was about 20 million, roughly something like that.

And the United Kingdom was 2 43 and it, we can dwell on that more and then they Then we moved on. There was more information about that, but then we move on to the different companies or people, company rankings, and the graph is pretty dominated by one company called automatic who had a total of 1 7, 8, 7 contribute contributions followed closely by Rimkus his former workplace, a Yoast grim, because it's not a culture that, that must've been incredibly deliberate, right?

It can't have happened by accident.

[00:10:49] Remkus de Vries: It's it is by design and by intent Yost as a company has a contributing back as one of the highest purchase within the company, but besides the actual things that they do and they do a tremendous job at it they organize so they had the Yost contribution.

They the. So they organize all of these different events and internally as well. So yeah there's a lot of things happening at Yoast to help build WordPress project.

[00:11:27] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. So automatic comes in first 1, 7, 8, 7, then it's Yoast and they really do dominate that chart. And then the next one I think is who done it at one 70 blue host at 1 65 and curiously an individual came in fifth position and REM cause more about this than I did this.

Can you say the name for me, Juliet. Thank you. Who works at all?

[00:11:58] Remkus de Vries: As far as I know, cause that was the case and I haven't checked with her recently, but I believe she was mostly hired by Yoast to give back to the project in in, in, in various stuff. But one of the things that she is highly active on is the unit testing.

[00:12:19] Maciek Palmowski: Yes. Because she's one of the creators of the polyfill library. Introduced into the unit. Yeah.

[00:12:27] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Cool. So

in a sense the contribution of Yoast, because she succonded, that's probably the wrong word, but you know what I'm trying to say. The contribution from Yossi financially, at least anyway, is significantly bigger than it looks like here. If that status quo that you described when you were there still exists anyway, curious that the there's really two big players there and then it falls off into the sort of mid hundreds and then low hundreds, and then it drops off significantly.

And the graph is surrounded by hundreds of smaller company. But to

[00:13:04] Maciek Palmowski: be honest, the first place is interesting because if I remember this is a very small agency, this who don't need, or how do you pronounce it? If I remember the, they are a very small agency and they are, when it comes to, let's say contributions per people who are working at the company are the first place because even automatic, it doesn't have such a great deal of contributions per.

[00:13:38] Nathan Wrigley: Person. Yeah, I see what you mean. So automatic other minute is I think it's about 1400 people, something like that. And whoever who done it is forgive me. I should probably have done that research in before we started, but nevermind. Have roughly a 10th of the contribution based there, but obviously you're saying they probably don't have 140 employees.

It's just a handful. They're really punching above their weight. And then it goes on, then they break it out in a different way. And then they talk about individual people who are worthy of mentioned. So for example, Tanya Sergei, and what have you lots and lots of interesting stuff here.

I want to just pull it back to that one there, the big one that we were looking at a minute ago there's this conversation which keeps coming around about the people that get to design WordPress are the people who can afford to show up and I'm going to drop that. And then I'm going to back away and see if anybody wants to take the hand grenade into their hands.

And talk, talk more about that. In other words, do we keep going? Do we pull it out? I think you can decide you want to pull the pin out or not, but it wasn't just go on lead go

[00:14:56] Remkus de Vries: for it. First one had a comment on the number of automations because the number of contributions from automatic is 1787.

If I remember, and that's roughly how many item petitions there are. So there are 1700 plus.

[00:15:13] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. That's significantly bigger than my memory told me. Okay. So you're saying there's a ratio of about one to one.

[00:15:19] Remkus de Vries: So that's what this looks like. Yeah.

[00:15:22] Piccia Neri: However, is that right? Because for instance, I know, don't we all, but I know quite a few for instance, happiness engineers, I do not contribute to their

[00:15:37] Nathan Wrigley: call.

[00:15:38] Remkus de Vries: No. And actual people contributing it's going to be less, but there are 1700 plus auditions and that's roughly what the what the number says here as well. So you could translate it to one-on-one. The reality of course, is that it's a subset of it. No going to say that, to answer your question in terms of who decides where a person's future goes and in terms of who, who who shows up, I don't think that we can derive that from this particular graph, even though it looks like it is, but I think it's more of a I don't think it's causality per se.

I do think it's the case, but that's, I think probably because our fearless leader is in that group.

[00:16:39] Nathan Wrigley: The I guess the argument is often made that if you let's say for example, that you are working at, oh, I don't know, just several of the several hosting companies there and you've got very big budgets.

Some people would say, would it be nice to see their circle growing over the next few years? And also, I guess people have concerns that if you are in one of the biggest circles, do you get more of a voice? Are there like back channels that, that exist? And I genuinely have no idea whether there's any truth in that or not, but the whole process of if you can afford to put people, can you push the agenda of what's going to be coming in WordPress?

I don't know. Sadly, I circled it doesn't exist.

[00:17:22] Remkus de Vries: The agenda. I don't know if you can push the agenda. I think you can contribute to the agenda. I think that's a desert.

[00:17:29] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, Courtney says the next graphic down on the post. There's more thorough quality of people per did you mean this one? I wonder Courtney.

I don't know if you did one. Did she, do you think that one, do you

[00:17:44] Piccia Neri: know what I would like to see? I think it would be amazing if these companies actually sponsored independent contributors who are freelance people who don't work for any company and they give up their time that, and they suffer from it because I know I've gone from being a contributor that wasn't sponsored by anyone to being sponsored.

And you made a huge difference for me. I do contribute to the core. My contribution is completely different. I'm not doing this, but I know that now I'm part of those are all sponsored by a company. And therefore I am able to say, okay, I create a talk or I'll go to this work conference or I'll give up my time.

I, I contribute. I'm one of the organizers of work at Valencia. I meet up here, but I know that it takes on my time, but I'm not fully sponsored, not at all, but at least I'm helped. And what worries me do you I imagine that you will know Morton runtime, Erickson, and I very much stand with he's the one who first said he wrote an article.

Basically I think the title is more or less open sources just done by those who've kind of food to show up because if you're a freedoms person with. Makes money by selling the time. It can become really, quite hard to contribute to the project and it's limited. And I, and then what happens when companies I bought, but my much bigger conglomerates who've made as you say, because they may not leave the agenda, but they definitely then have voice to steer it.

So I feel like that's what I would like to see. I would like to see companies actively sponsoring independent players that don't want to keep their independence. That's I think what would help,

[00:19:47] Remkus de Vries: I would love to see that too. But given that we've been saying or not, we, but the larger group of we have been saying this for years it's only happening sporadically.

[00:20:01] Nathan Wrigley: Well,

[00:20:01] Piccia Neri: maybe we should be sponsoring more. Maybe we should talk about same, maybe. I know I can be an agent of change in my own small way. By talking to the companies I collaborate with, one of them is obviously club is, and I know that CloudWave is sponsor their own employees for the projects they do, that their sponsors sponsor me.

So they are behind the project and really believe in it because they have so many WordPress users that are the clients that, for the committed to it. So I can be, I can try and be an agent of change, but going to Congress and saying, what about this? Would you consider doing this? And then see what they say?

Why not? We could, we can at least try. And of course put myself.

[00:20:44] Nathan Wrigley: Random, but slightly related question. Is there enough? I don't even know if these words ought to exit my lips, but here we go. Is there enough incentive to contribute? And what I mean by that is do certain people let's say, did, would you feel like you'd want more.

Off the backend of it. In other words, it's very nice with all this philanthropic stuff going on and it's for the benefit of the community and the code gets better and the project gets stronger and it grows. I wonder if some people want more in terms of a commercial, almost like a sponsored arrangement, I will contribute to you if you show my ad on your platform or I will pay for somebody to contribute.

But I want a tangible thing in return. I want to be able to point to the thing and say, that's what I'm getting back. Sure. There's

[00:21:39] Remkus de Vries: folks, I'm sure there's folks that would have an agenda like that, but I don't think that's where we need to go. And I don't think that's actually what drives this project.

No,

[00:21:52] Piccia Neri: sorry. Now I run silent.

[00:21:58] Remkus de Vries: I was going to say that the philanthropy, philanthropic part of it, I think for me, at least and for many that I'm. It's just that helping others forward without having a personal

[00:22:11] Nathan Wrigley: agenda. Yeah. Yeah. That's nice.

[00:22:15] Remkus de Vries: Yeah, it just blows back to me

[00:22:16] Nathan Wrigley: anyway. So I'll just point out this chart, which Courtney mentioned felt it was a sort of slightly better representation, perhaps she said what did she say?

I think the next graph, which is the one about show graphic down the post is more thorough on quantity of people per employee. So here we go. This says of the 159 identified companies that contributes to WordPress 5.9 automatic had by far the most contributors with 83 people turn up and Yost are the second biggest with 11 each RT com multi dots come third with six people each and so on and so forth.

So it's just a really interesting breakdown of who makes the project happen. You can find [email protected]. And the piece itself is entitled at WordPress 5.9 core contribution statistics. So if you're interested in that and you want to

[00:23:13] Piccia Neri: know

of data, is

[00:23:19] Nathan Wrigley: these look like the same charts that Matt had at the state of the word? I don't know if these are the charts that might have it stay at the word, but they look very like right down to the color scheme and where everything is actually positioned. I could maybe I'm misremembering that, but anyway, let's move on.

Shall we let's talk about something else. Let's talk whilst we're talking about philanthropic, this WP engine's piece. I don't know where these numbers come from, but the numbers I was captivated by them because the numbers were just so jolly big. So this is WP engine is supposed to entitled the value of WordPress.

There's a philanthropic side, but also obviously many of you are in WordPress and you have your business. There needs to be a sort of financial side as well. Here we go. Let's talk about WordPress in numbers in terms of money, the WordPress economy, apparently wait for it. Just make sure your jaw is like firmly held.

So it doesn't slap on something as a, as you hear this number 597 billion us dollars. That's what they think it would be. And just to give you some perspective on that, if WordPress and I'm quoting, if word, if the WordPress economy were equivalent to the market cap of a company, it would rank 10th amongst the largest companies worldwide.

Again, I don't know where these numbers come from, but I'm just reading them off the WP engine website. And it would, if the WordPress economy were a country take this in, it would rank 39th in the world. According to the IMF list of countries by GDP. Now make of that, what you will, obviously, it's not all in the hands of any individual or company is spread out over thousands of different entities.

Nevertheless, it's pretty staggering amounts of money, 0.6 of a trillion dollars, pretty much a large amount of money. Any thoughts on this? Does this give you, does this make you excited? Does it, do you have no. Cause for concern here is it th

[00:25:29] Maciek Palmowski: the only thing that is a bit concerning that on the one hand, we see that we are the biggest company.

If you would sum up everything. And the other hand are so many places where no one wants to pay for. They pay the contributors, for example how many troubles there were with documentation team or with other teams with sponsoring people to do stuff. So yes, companies are earning a lot of money, but in many cases it doesn't comes back to the community.

There are really a lot of companies that are doing great job, for example, Yoast, because Yoast is really remarkable when it comes to giving back from what they earned. But on the other hand, we sell that on this graph. I couldn't, so companies that benefit benefit a lot, for example, I couldn't see Elementor.

Who is

[00:26:37] Remkus de Vries: And if you compare it to this data, with what we just saw, as in terms of how this stuff is broken down into. What does it actually mean for a company or sort of, cause it's sorry to interrupt you, but it's, to me, it's a guesstimate. We have no way of knowing if it's 0.6 or maybe 0.3 either way it's a lot, but it's such a large number that it becomes very hard to connect it to anything.

And what with, Mochica saying, if you can connect it to, what does that actually mean? Like where is the money and how much of that company? So it's companies eventually, how much is that is actually flowing back to the project. So that's the interesting part. And that's, I think the larger question there is there's us in the inner community.

There's a large layer around it. And then there's this huge void of. Small clients, or even very large clients that we have absolutely no idea about because they just don't interact with the community. So it's true. It's very hard to determine anything from these numbers other than, at 50% they still be impressive.

That's

[00:27:52] Nathan Wrigley: how the numbers have very big, but it also too big to, yeah, that's right. I literally have no conception of what that kind of money could purchase. You need some

[00:28:03] Remkus de Vries: kind of breakdown into. How are you calculating?

[00:28:08] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that, that is what I would like to see, but I thought I'd mentioned it anyway, because even if, like you say REMCOs, even if it's 50% correct, and the numbers are just half as big, it's still a gigantic ecosystem that we're all swimming in.

The projected growth comes a little bit later down. I'm showing it on the screen now. And they, again, I don't know where this comes from. Presumably by looking into the past and extrapolating into the future, the projected increase of 6.5% in 2021, it means that total would in fact rise up to 636 billion.

And it would appear according to whatever data they've gathered, 68% of WordPress users plan to increase their use in the CMS in 2021. I think that probably should say 22 89% of users expect WordPress community to keep growing over the next five years, which. Amazing and 45% of organizations that use WordPress in a plan to increase it again, probably 2022.

My point being, we seem to have almost infinite growth in the time that I've been in WordPress, which is about, I don't know, 7, 8, 10 years, something like that. The number the numbers always get better. The numbers have never crescendoed or plateaued or declined. Every time I read a number it's a better number than the previous occasion.

It was quite curious that this week Facebook, for the first time posted like a stall in, it was like the tiniest difference between what they had last year or months or what they had this month. Anyway, the point was there was total chaos in Facebook stocks when it went attain a little bit backwards.

We don't have to worry about that in that sense, but I am just kidding. There must be a moment cause you can't have 101% of the internet.

[00:30:01] Remkus de Vries: Isn't there in the latest post by Yoast default about his CMS shares didn't he indicate that the growth is somewhat flattening.

[00:30:11] Nathan Wrigley: It's interesting. I think

[00:30:13] Remkus de Vries: if I it's been a few weeks since I read it, but I think he mentioned something along the lines of it is not growing as as steep anymore.

It's still growing, but the curve of growth is just ever so slightly. I think beginning to end up with what the natural numbers going to be, and maybe that's 45, maybe that's 50. I know. But it's not going to go on to 67. I'm

[00:30:45] Nathan Wrigley: going to be chicken. Little, the sky is falling in. I'm going to start a Joomla podcast.

It's all over.

It's just fascinates me that it's just kept growing. And maybe I just arrived at the inflection point where it just took a sharp upswing. I know it was growing a long time before then, but it really the numbers. When did you arrive qualities of the percent of the internet? I guess it's breathtaking. It's really so

[00:31:14] Remkus de Vries: that's that's still not a fair representation because it is measured.

So the part of it is I don't know what that total number is either 10,000 or a hundred thousand, but it's X amount of sites. And then the percentage of that on is that as workers, and this is, again, this is playing with number. This is how can I lie with statistics, but then not intend to have a lie here.

We have no idea what happens outside of that 10% or that those 10,000 or a hundred thousand, we have no idea. The only party that would know is the workers project they could, if they wanted to extrapolate that from all the data that they have, everybody's work. Parasite is phoning home at some point.

And then you still have your internal stuff as well. So maybe add 5% to it, but then you will get a number that is saying something. Cause these percentages yeah.

[00:32:10] Nathan Wrigley: Has anybody got the number for the WordPress project? I'll just give them a quick call and just tell us,

[00:32:17] Maciek Palmowski: on the other hand, the press Gazette just published an article about news websites that are using different CMSs and WordPress declined a bit during this year.

So while it was growing in the. Online newspapers. For many years this year, there was a very small, but the decline also, there is one more thing that we also have to remember that I'm not sure. Or how does this guessing which CMS is used work works because we are using more and more headless approaches and sometimes work can be hidden in a very good way.

So there is a chance that some of the websites that are marked as other are WordPress.

[00:33:14] Remkus de Vries: I still think that's a very small percentage given the total, but you're right. That's also one of the things that muddies the water in terms of what are we looking at? Think it's an primarily a great marketing method that we have.

That's focused on the percentage of a small niche. And use that as a metric, but the reality is we have absolutely

[00:33:39] Nathan Wrigley: no clue. It's very big numbers and they're scary, big. And. But it gives me some sort of confidence, at least anyway that people who can put together big numbers are making them big. And it makes me feel, yes, I should be part of this ecosystem is it's growing.

That's right. Thank goodness for that. Okay. Let's just say a few hellos. Hello, Darren. Hello, Darren Pender. Nice for you to join us. I don't know that I've met you before. Nice to see you and Daniel. Thanks for joining us again. Nice to see you max, coming back to the point we had a little bit, I'll go where we were talking about contributing and who does what it says.

The there is the code level of contributing, but in the future we'll be able to contribute patterns, photos, and designs or blocks. Yeah. Good point. It would appear that the photo library is growing fairly steady. I I, myself, I'm a lousy photographer, so I'm not going to be uploading my photos, but that would be one way that like, have you, what was it.

[00:34:41] Remkus de Vries: I don't remember.

[00:34:50] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, you peachy keen photographer or are you just going to just put your, I

[00:34:54] Piccia Neri: Used to be one of my main streams of income I used to have, I still have lots of photos on a shutter stock. I took them down from other sites because at some point I was really upset by the exploitative system. So they're usually they pay you 20 P to if an image costs $1, I get 20, they got 80, which is, yeah.

It's like that payment. Sometimes when you start, it's probably more like 10. 90, but I left them up in websites that made it difficult for me to destroy the portfolio. So just out of laziness, I haven't seen them off forever, but then my quotes is I can put them wherever I want. So yeah.

[00:35:42] Nathan Wrigley: There's Michelle saying hi from New York.

She she has contributed quite a lot of the photos, I think because she's a very keen photographer. I think quite a few of them actually are hers peachy. You would be happy with that approach. Obviously, at some point in the past, you wish to turn your photos into revenue. You want to upload them somewhere.

Have you moved to a point where those exact same photos you would now be happy to just put them up there because it's not what you primarily do now. You'd be okay with that.

[00:36:10] Piccia Neri: It's more that if I'm making 20 P on each of them, I'd rather give them away for free, but what's I, and also some They're old now they're like from 10 years ago.

So farm, I don't feel possessive anymore, but what I would need to do, is really take them off the paid sites. I think, I don't think, I dunno if I can, if it's ethical or logical to offer them as paid for on some sites and free on others, so I'd have to, but there's literally there's I think Shutterstock is all right, but there's another site that I'm on.

That's called Dreamstime that it literally wants me to delete. I have thousands, like 2000, maybe more. And they, the only way for me to deactivate my portfolio is to. Take each image off, delete each image one by one. I was like,

I'm some held captive by Dreamstime because I could not be bothered to do that.

[00:37:16] Nathan Wrigley: Who could

[00:37:17] Remkus de Vries: maybe if you close your account down entirely

[00:37:21] Nathan Wrigley: paycheck,

[00:37:23] Piccia Neri: basically there's no, I don't know if it's changed now, but I remember getting so upset that I had to just leave it, put it aside because he was just angry at me too much.

It's just this crazy.

[00:37:35] Nathan Wrigley: You know what? This is picture. This is a dark.

Peter. And I are doing this show every month called the WP builds UI UX show. And one of the things that we want to get Peacher talking about is dark patterns. And that's a really good one where we'll make it really hard for you to get off our platform. Apparently I don't know how true this is because I've never tried it.

Apparently. It's really hard to erase your Facebook data. And I don't mean hard. Does it impossible? How does in just a multitude of steps that you've got to go through in the correct order, if you want to make that certain Robert

[00:38:14] Piccia Neri: Keynes is saying right now sounds like being captive by Facebook.

And also I used to have a pre I have a previous Facebook account that's I simply I'm not using anymore. And I tried to download my archive cruises years and years, and I was not able ever, because in theory, you are able to download your art. And when you know a cart, I, they never let me, I don't even know whether I'd be able to get back into it now, can I make the appeal of Nathan?

Obviously we're doing our own research, but if one of the things that we would like is if you come across the patterns and that's any annoying, any clickbait, any annoying thing that gets you, wants you to do something that you didn't want to do online or in an email or anything like that, please let us know, send us screenshots or URLs or whatever.

And then we'll talk about it on the show because we're on a mission to end dark faxes. So last time I took Nathan and the audience through what it's like. Try and book a flight with Ryanair and rings of fire that they have you jump through.

[00:39:41] Nathan Wrigley: So things like that. This is our show. I didn't mean to stray into this, but as you've raised it, I've put it on the screen.

It's th WP Builds.com forward slash a UI, and we've got a dark patterns field here. Now, if you come across the dark pan, I sent you one earlier in the week picture don't. If you've got it on the other platform that we communicate on. And and it was really annoying, but this seems to be more and more, any way

[00:40:07] Piccia Neri: that I was actually thinking that, because that form Nathan obliges you to.

Website as well. Maybe we should explain that people can use it even just for the talk after an only, and so not make

[00:40:23] Nathan Wrigley: that. Okay. I will make that field. Yeah, that's fine. I can do that. I was deliberately making it awfully difficult to fill out, it was really hoping that people would stumble at the last hurdle and the form would remain dark.

It was a dark farm. It was really dark. Okay. I think we're done with the ginormous 80 of the WordPress ecosystem, right? I think this is fabulously. Interesting. You may think I'm a nerd, but I love this. So I don't know how this came in my direction. I think this was Twitter and I follow Matt Mullenweg and he doesn't post on Twitter very much.

And so when I see them, I look at them and he was, I think he was retweeting. Somebody called Joel Spolsky and I could've got the nurse, the surname wrong. I think that's right. Who is the founder of all sorts of amazing stuff online like Trello stack exchange. And he was saying that he's, he wants to build, I say, Hey, I'm guessing his organization through this website called the block protocol.org wants to build in interoperability between.

Everywhere on the internet. So at the moment, if you imagine it your blocks and your WordPress website that's where your block lives. Everything inside that block belongs there and it's not going anywhere. It's staying there and he wants to make an open standard. So that any block of any kind, what just WordPress, any kind on the internet can communicate in some way, shape or form wants to flesh out this protocol.

So block protocol.org is the premise. If I'd have made this website, nobody take it seriously because I'm an idiot, but him doing it, it makes me think. I think maybe this is a fairly serious, a serious endeavor so much so that Matt then retweeted something along the lines of, yeah, we should get together and start to talk about this.

So I don't know. I don't know if this is something that excites you. I love the idea of stuff on my website. Being able to be somewhere else. It just seems fabulous.

[00:42:37] Piccia Neri: Not as clever as

[00:42:41] Nathan Wrigley: Let's go round, maybe cause cross token, let's go with REM because to start with,

[00:42:47] Remkus de Vries: so I think it's an interesting premise. It, and then in many ways will be the thing that merges the internet together. Because if everything is a block and a block is just a concept, but if everything is a unit of data that is interchangeable with any other type of CMS or platform, because that really ought to be a platform as well, then then the next step is a collection of blocks.

And then what do we need to CMS for? That will be the flavor, right? That will be your preferred way of working with the blocks. I like that concept. I like that concept.

[00:43:33] Nathan Wrigley: Especially if you could, if it was interoperable to the point where you could just flip and flop between CMS says, I've got a friend who's building a website and he constantly flips between WordPress and other things.

And each time it's a London this line in the sand, you have to start again. But if you could just take the blocks that you've got on one platform and push them somewhere else, CMS is a one thing, but it could be anything couldn't. It could be like your content management system or your CRM or whatever it might be.

Yeah. It

[00:44:04] Remkus de Vries: Reminds me a little bit about the indie web movement. They it's on a different level because they are more about from one from one website communicating to another one. But I think in essence, there's a similarity in wanting to be interconnected in all the ways. So if you combine this with indie web there is something interesting that would mean we can actually start to get rid of the company that should not be named anymore, but the one who lost 25% of their their worth over a, an accounting thing.

I think it's an interesting approach. It's going to take a lot of years, but it's an interesting approach to for also for independence,

[00:44:57] Nathan Wrigley: I guess. Yeah. Yeah. My check. Will you got any thoughts on this? It struck me that this was right up yours. Yeah,

[00:45:05] Maciek Palmowski: this is because this sounds really interesting.

And I totally agree with what we drank was that this would really connect the whole web together. It would be like amazing. The problem is with all the standards. Many companies likes to have their own standards. We know about many companies that prefer to to close the API APIs and start doing things their own way.

Are let's take a look at at WordPress. We even have our own code standard, which no one else uses. And for some reason we are sticking with it. And this is the thing. I would be a bit afraid of that. Okay. Let's say that 10 years from this point. The Brock, the block protocol is it's working many pennies has adopted it at the shore.

We would have block protocol or presentation. This is something that lets me a bit so I'm afraid that for example, Gutenberg will be the hybrid of let's say is block protocol at Gutenberg itself, which in result what didn't work as a chew, because everyone will have the same standard, but still I'm really keeping my fingers crossed because this is something that it's not only a beautiful, the beautiful ID.

But the fact that the child really did some amazing things and he's really a non-person over the internet. So maybe he will push the project and maybe it will work. We'll see.

[00:47:04] Nathan Wrigley: And when they were inventing like the railway system in the UK like a hundred years ago or something, there was no protocol for how big the rail was, should be.

And so you would basically get to a station and the train, which should just carry on in a straight line. It's a swap the train because the wheels were of a different size. And so it went on for decades is my understanding until somebody said, look, this is enough. We need a protocol for how big the trains are.

And so that was that. And I imagine the same thing happened with the networking and the switching on the internet. You could imagine every country having a totally different IP stack or something, but somebody thankfully got in there and said, no, this is how TCP IP is going to work. All the packets are going to be moved in this way.

That's and wouldn't it be nice if content data could be treated in the same way as well? That's the best analogy I've ever made in my life.

[00:48:05] Remkus de Vries: It hurts.

[00:48:07] Nathan Wrigley: Oh dear. But there you go. But wouldn't it be nice. Wouldn't it be nice if five years into the future, we could look back at this moment and say, actually, that was the moment where everything became interoperable.

I think you're right. My check, I think it's got he's a guy that maybe could do it, but history shows doesn't it. It's not easy to do. How long have we had the

[00:48:29] Remkus de Vries: block editor?

[00:48:31] Nathan Wrigley: Two, two and a bit years. Is it three? Yeah. 3 26. Yeah. You're right. You're right. Yeah.

[00:48:41] Remkus de Vries: I don't know what happened, Nathan.

[00:48:43] Nathan Wrigley: Five years

[00:48:46] Remkus de Vries: in a decade type thing unless Matt, actually again we talked about agendas earlier.

If this suddenly appears on the agenda. It'll happen faster, but it's a beautiful idea. I like what it's proposals. I like what options it, it presents.

[00:49:13] Nathan Wrigley: I would check it out anyway, it is block protocol.org, and you can see that, they've got the usual documentation specifications and stuff.

And if this stuff excites you, I think it's worth having a look at all right. From. Interesting too. I don't know if this is interesting or just really frustrating. I don't know why everybody sits on GDPR, whether it's a good thing, whether it's bitten you, whether you find it to be a pain, depending on where your jurisdiction is bots this week Sarah Gooding tells us that a German court has find a website owner.

I'm sure that's pretty much all of us, our website owner, because they were using Google hosted fonts. And you think to yourself, what, how does that work? It turns out that the IP address, and I think specifically the IP address, nothing more was of the person viewing the website was taken.

Over to the United States. And although the fine was very small, it was a hundred euros, which I'm guessing was, maybe just a judge's way of saying, okay, let's see how this progresses in the future. The fact is somebody got fined and it's probably having to modify things in the future because the GDPR does not allow this.

But I wonder how many of us didn't know that the DPL didn't allow this, but also whether or not some of us think, okay, is an IP address worth it. I know that's the rules. So I'm opening it up. I'm going to throw the grenade again

[00:50:51] Remkus de Vries: and I'm pulling

[00:50:52] Nathan Wrigley: the pin this time. You pull it gone really hard. Throw it right?

[00:50:56] Remkus de Vries: Yeah. I had an interesting discussion with Matt, sorry, Matt. I forgot your last name, right? Last week, essentially about this, where so there's a different approach of what is an IP address in terms of how does it become a private thing? And my logic was very simple. If it can be traced to the whereabouts of someone, it can be traced back to who that person is.

It's as simple and as straightforward as that. And if that is the case, it is privacy and it falls on the GDPR. There's no two ways about it. You can make it two ways about it because Matt Cromwell, there you go. Remember the name. You can make it about more or less, but in all actuality, it allows you and there's various techniques of doing so to pinpoint who that person on the internet is.

If that wasn't the case, then IP addresses wouldn't matter in terms of if a police member comes to your house and knocks on the door and says, Hey, we just noticed that you were downloading an illegal movie. How do you know? We have the IP address and that's how we found you. So it's a, non-discussion trying to make that in a non privacy thing.

It is a privacy

[00:52:21] Nathan Wrigley: thing, period. It's interesting that in the article they're quoting from the the case, it says an old quote, the defendant violated the plaintiff's right to informational self-determination by forwarding. And this is the interesting one, the dynamic IP address. So it wasn't a fixed IP address or anything.

It was just dynamic, but obviously the ISP can totally link that to you. A hundred percent of the time they know who you are, but it is the ISP. The ISP

[00:52:51] Remkus de Vries: is way more than just the ISP.

[00:52:55] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that's a good point. These I feel that the debate feels like it's taking shape in different ways in Europe and in north America.

It feels that it's going in different directions. I could be wrong about that, but anyway, a very small, fine, a hundred euros, not too much, but presumably just a sort of warning shot across some bowels. Of course the solution is fairly straightforward You could just download the Google font and have that on your own website And that's possible of course there's always a plugin for that but yeah the GDPR Google

[00:53:35] Maciek Palmowski: we'll once connect with with Google fonts

[00:53:40] Remkus de Vries: Yes But it downloads it and your websites Yeah Yeah

[00:53:51] Maciek Palmowski: Once it breaks the GDPR Oh

[00:53:53] Nathan Wrigley: I see the

[00:53:55] Maciek Palmowski: moment that you download it It's only once.

[00:54:00] Remkus de Vries: No. But you as a website your website your server downloads the Google farms So that's not disclosing an IP address for

[00:54:09] Nathan Wrigley: anyone It depends

[00:54:12] Maciek Palmowski: Where is your server

[00:54:15] Remkus de Vries: Yeah

[00:54:15] Nathan Wrigley: Not the user Yeah actually this is

[00:54:28] Maciek Palmowski: yeah this is educates when For example using a static website building government and local downloading and pushing it backs up for a moment you break the GDPR like I said an edge case but overall this whole case this whole case of GDPR and American companies because the Google fonts it's not the only problem right now We only have the problem with Google analytics wet with Austria without SRE link And Germany's probably going to second this

[00:55:06] Remkus de Vries: so much closer to home also touches this exactly We have avatar

[00:55:21] Maciek Palmowski: I already sold that there is an issue The Gravatar breaking the GDPR So it does Yes it does Of course it does Yeah . So overall very interesting when it comes to the to what will be happening on the line between the American companies are even hosting things on servers owned by American component Europe NPR This will be a really I think it will be a really big and it can evolve different website, WP Builds.com, blah, blah blah There's links buttons things you can press forms You can fill out and put your name into and we'll send you stuff about WordPress but Dwell on that What we want to do is talk about WordPress and the people of WordPress This is the first bit we got this week This is over Jean-Baptiste or dress I apologize if I've butchered that name as well but I will put some show notes together but which will come out tomorrow And this is a little survey I think he's been doing it for he she I don't know has been doing it for several years and it's a nice little break down with graphics about who is contributing to make the WordPress project If memory serves Cause I read this last week this is simply Core contributions nothing else So it's not talking about marketing or any of the other teams it's simply what is committed to call translations and so on yet it's just the cost of thanks for him Cause yeah and I think it's quite interesting I focusing on 5.9 which has obviously just hit us I'll just go through a few top lines statistics which I thought was interesting And then you can fill us in you guys about whether you thought whether you thought this was a representation that was laudable Something to be changed something to be modified in some way 624 people come in from 54 different countries from 159 different companies That's the kind of bottom line I.

If you can go and find this you'll see these Nice little graphics where they put everything in easy to consume circles So the graph that we're looking at the moment for example it's country racking by number of contributions And I bet you can't figure out what the number one country was in terms of contributions I.

It was the U S 1,169 and then it drops off pretty quick After that to be honest in second place it looks like it was Russia with 200 and Nope 330 in third place was Australia which is considering the population of Australia is a pretty mean fee I think the last time I checked it was about 20 million roughly something like that A.

And the United Kingdom was 2 43 and it we can dwell on that more and then they Then we moved on There was more information about that but then we move on to the different companies or people company rankings and the graph is pretty dominated by one company called automatic who had a total of 1 7, 8, 7 contribute contributions followed closely by Rimkus his former workplace a Yoast grim because it's not a culture that that must've been incredibly deliberate right It can't have happened by accident N

No. It's it is by design and by intent Yost as a company has a contributing back as one of the highest purchase within the company but besides the actual things that they do and they do a tremendous job at it they organize so they had the Yost contribution They the So they organize all of these different events and internally as well So yeah there's a lot of things happening at Yoast to help build WordPress project Yeah So automatic comes in first 1, 7, 8, 7 then it's Yoast and they really do dominate that chart And then the next one I think is who done it at one 70 blue host at 1 65 and curiously an individual came in fifth position and REM cause more about this than I did this C.

Can you say the name for me Juliet Thank you Who works at all A

As far as I know cause that was the case and I haven't checked with her recently but I believe she was mostly hired by Yoast to give back to the project in in in in various stuff But one of the things that she is highly active on is the unit testing Yes Because she's one of the creators of the polyfill library Introduced into the unit Yeah Yeah Cool So in a sense the contribution of Yoast because she succonded that's probably the wrong word but you know what I'm trying to say The contribution from Yossi financially at least anyway is significantly bigger than it looks like here If that status quo that you described when you were there still exists anyway curious that the there's really two big players there and then it falls off into the sort of mid hundreds and then low hundreds and then it drops off significantly And the graph is surrounded by hundreds of smaller company But to be honest the first place is interesting because if I remember this is a very small agency this who don't need or how do you pronounce it If I remember the they are a very small agency and they are when it comes to let's say contributions per people who are working at the company are the first place because even automatic it doesn't have such a great deal of contributions per Person Yeah I see what you mean So automatic other minute is I think it's about 1400 people something like that And whoever who done it is forgive me I should probably have done that research in before we started but nevermind They have roughly a 10th of the contribution based there but obviously you're saying they probably don't have 140 employees It's just a handful They're really punching above their weight And then it goes on then they break it out in a different way And then they talk about individual people who are worthy of mentioned So for example Tanya Sergei and what have you lots and lots of interesting stuff here I want to just pull it back to that one there the big one that we were looking at a minute ago there's this conversation which keeps coming around about the people that get to design WordPress are the people who can afford to show up and I'm going to drop that And then I'm going to back away and see if anybody wants to take the hand grenade into their hands And talk talk more about that In other words do we keep going Do we pull it out I think you can decide you want to pull the pin out or not but it wasn't just go on you lead go for it First one had a comment on the number of automations because the number of contributions from automatic is 1787 If I remember and that's roughly how many item petitions there are So there are 1700 plus Okay That's significantly bigger than my memory told me Okay So you're saying there's a ratio of about one to one So that's what this looks like Yeah H

However is that right Because for instance I know don't we all but I know quite a few for instance happiness engineers I do not contribute to their call N.

No And actual people contributing it's going to be less but there are 1700 plus auditions and that's roughly what the what the number says here as well So you could translate it to one-on-one The reality of course is that it's a subset of it No going to say that to answer your question in terms of who decides where a person's future goes and in terms of who who who shows up I don't think that we can derive that from this particular graph even though it looks like it is but I think it's more of a I don't think it's causality per se I do think it's the case but that's I think probably because our fearless leader is in that group The I guess the argument is often made that if you let's say for example that you are working at oh I don't know just several of the several hosting companies there and you've got very big budgets Some people would say would it be nice to see their circle growing over the next few years And also I guess people have concerns that if you are in one of the biggest circles do you get more of a voice Are there like back channels that that exist And I genuinely have no idea whether there's any truth in that or not but the whole process of if you can afford to put people can you push the agenda of what's going to be coming in WordPress I don't know Sadly I circled it doesn't exist The agenda I don't know if you can push the agenda I think you can contribute to the agenda I think that's a desert Yeah Courtney says the next graphic down on the post There's more thorough quality of people per did you mean this one I wonder Courtney I don't know if you did one Did she do you think that one do you know what I would like to see I think it would be amazing if these companies actually sponsored independent contributors who are freelance people who don't work for any company and they give up their time that and they suffer from it because I know I've gone from being a contributor that wasn't sponsored by anyone to being sponsored And you made a huge difference for me I do contribute to the core My contribution is completely different I'm not doing this but I know that now I'm part of those are all sponsored by a company And therefore I am able to say okay I create a talk or I'll go to this work conference or I'll give up my time I I contribute I'm one of the organizers of work at Valencia I meet up here but I know that it takes on my time but I'm not fully sponsored not at all but at least I'm helped And what worries me do you I imagine that you will know Morton runtime Erickson and I very much stand with he's the one who first said he wrote an article B.

Basically I think the title is more or less open sources just done by those who've kind of food to show up because if you're a freedoms person with Makes money by selling the time It can become really quite hard to contribute to the project and it's limited And I and then what happens when companies I bought but my much bigger conglomerates who've made as you say because they may not leave the agenda but they definitely then have voice to steer it So I feel like that's what I would like to see I would like to see companies actively sponsoring independent players that don't want to keep their independence That's I think what would help I would love to see that too But given that we've been saying or not we but the larger group of we have been saying this for years it's only happening sporadically Well maybe we should be sponsoring more Maybe we should talk about same maybe I know I can be an agent of change in my own small way By talking to the companies I collaborate with one of them is obviously club is and I know that CloudWave is sponsor their own employees for the projects they do that their sponsors sponsor me So they are behind the project and really believe in it because they have so many WordPress users that are the clients that for the committed to it So I can be I can try and be an agent of change but going to Congress and saying what about this Would you consider doing this And then see what they say Why not We could we can at least try And of course put myself Random but slightly related question Is there enough I don't even know if these words ought to exit my lips but here we go Is there enough incentive to contribute And what I mean by that is do certain people let's say did would you feel like you'd want more Off the backend of it In other words it's very nice with all this philanthropic stuff going on and it's for the benefit of the community and the code gets better and the project gets stronger and it grows. I wonder if some people want more in terms of a commercial almost like a sponsored arrangement I will contribute to you if you show my ad on your platform or I will pay for somebody to contribute B.

But I want a tangible thing in return I want to be able to point to the thing and say that's what I'm getting back Sure There's folks I'm sure there's folks that would have an agenda like that but I don't think that's where we need to go And I don't think that's actually what drives this project No sorry Now I run silent I was going to say that the philanthropy philanthropic part of it I think for me at least and for many that I'm It's just that helping others forward without having a personal agenda Yeah Yeah That's nice Yeah it just blows back to me anyway So I'll just point out this chart which Courtney mentioned felt it was a sort of slightly better representation perhaps she said what did she say I think the next graph which is the one about show graphic down the post is more thorough on quantity of people per employee So here we go This says of the 159 identified companies that contributes to WordPress 5.9 automatic had by far the most contributors with 83 people turn up and Yost are the second biggest with 11 each RT com multi dots come third with six people each and so on and so forth So it's just a really interesting breakdown of who makes the project happen You can find [email protected] And the piece itself is entitled at WordPress 5.9 core contribution statistics So if you're interested in that and you want to know of data is these look like the same charts that Matt had at the state of the word I don't know if these are the charts that might have it stay at the word but they look very like right down to the color scheme and where everything is actually positioned I could maybe I'm misremembering that but anyway let's move on Shall we let's talk about something else Let's talk whilst we're talking about philanthropic this WP engine's piece I don't know where these numbers come from but the numbers I was captivated by them because the numbers were just so jolly big So this is WP engine is supposed to entitled the value of WordPress There's a philanthropic side but also obviously many of you are in WordPress and you have your business There needs to be a sort of financial side as well Here we go Let's talk about WordPress in numbers in terms of money the WordPress economy apparently wait for it Just make sure your jaw is like firmly held So it doesn't slap on something as a as you hear this number 597 billion us dollars That's what they think it would be And just to give you some perspective on that if WordPress and I'm quoting if word if the WordPress economy were equivalent to the market cap of a company it would rank 10th amongst the largest companies worldwide Again I don't know where these numbers come from but I'm just reading them off the WP engine website And it would if the WordPress economy were a country take this in it would rank 39th in the world According to the IMF list of countries by GDP Now make of that what you will obviously it's not all in the hands of any individual or company is spread out over thousands of different entities Nevertheless it's pretty staggering amounts of money 0.6 of a trillion dollars pretty much a large amount of money Any thoughts on this Does this give you does this make you excited Does it do you have no. Cause for concern here is it th the only thing that is a bit concerning that on the one hand we see that we are the biggest company If you would sum up everything And the other hand are so many places where no one wants to pay for They pay the contributors for example how many troubles there were with documentation team or with other teams with sponsoring people to do stuff So yes companies are earning a lot of money but in many cases it doesn't comes back to the community There are really a lot of companies that are doing great job for example Yoast because Yoast is really remarkable when it comes to giving back from what they earned But on the other hand we sell that on this graph I couldn't so companies that benefit benefit a lot for example I couldn't see Elementor Who is a

And if you compare it to this data with what we just saw as in terms of how this stuff is broken down into What does it actually mean for a company or sort of cause it's sorry to interrupt you but it's to me it's a guesstimate We have no way of knowing if it's 0.6 or maybe 0.3 either way it's a lot but it's such a large number that it becomes very hard to connect it to anything A.

And what with Mochica saying if you can connect it to what does that actually mean Like where is the money and how much of that company So it's companies eventually how much is that is actually flowing back to the project So that's the interesting part And that's I think the larger question there is there's us in the inner community There's a large layer around it And then there's this huge void of Small clients or even very large clients that we have absolutely no idea about because they just don't interact with the community So it's true It's very hard to determine anything from these numbers other than at 50 they still be impressive That's how the numbers have very big but it also too big to yeah that's right I literally have no conception of what that kind of money could purchase You need some kind of breakdown into How are you calculating Yeah that that is what I would like to see but I thought I'd mentioned it anyway because even if like you say REMCOs even if it's 50% correct and the numbers are just half as big it's still a gigantic ecosystem that we're all swimming in The projected growth comes a little bit later down I'm showing it on the screen now And they again I don't know where this comes from Presumably by looking into the past and extrapolating into the future the projected increase of 6.5% in 2021 it means that total would in fact rise up to 636 billion And it would appear according to whatever data they've gathered 68% of WordPress users plan to increase their use in the CMS in 2021 I think that probably should say 22 89 of users expect WordPress community to keep growing over the next five years which Amazing and 45% of organizations that use WordPress in a plan to increase it again probably 2022 My point being we seem to have almost infinite growth in the time that I've been in WordPress which is about I don't know 7, 8, 10 years something like that The number the numbers always get better The numbers have never crescendoed or plateaued or declined Every time I read a number it's a better number than the previous occasion It was quite curious that this week Facebook for the first time posted like a stall in it was like the tiniest difference between what they had last year or months or what they had this month Anyway the point was there was total chaos in Facebook stocks when it went attain a little bit backwards We don't have to worry about that in that sense but I am just kidding There must be a moment cause you can't have 101% of the internet I

Isn't there in the latest post by Yoast default about his CMS shares didn't he indicate that the growth is somewhat flattening It's interesting I think if I it's been a few weeks since I read it but I think he mentioned something along the lines of it is not growing as as steep anymore i.

It's still growing but the curve of growth is just ever so slightly I think beginning to end up with what the natural numbers going to be and maybe that's 45 maybe that's 50 I know But it's not going to go on to 67 I'm going to be chicken Little the sky is falling in I'm going to start a Joomla podcast It's all over It's just fascinates me that it's just kept growing And maybe I just arrived at the inflection point where it just took a sharp upswing I know it was growing a long time before then but it really the numbers When did you arrive qualities of the percent of the internet I guess it's breathtaking It's really so that's that's still not a fair representation because it is measured So the part of it is I don't know what that total number is either 10,000 or a hundred thousand but it's X amount of sites And then the percentage of that on is that as workers and this is again this is playing with number This is how can I lie with statistics but then not intend to have a lie here We have no idea what happens outside of that 10% or that those 10,000 or a hundred thousand we have no idea The only party that would know is the workers project they could if they wanted to extrapolate that from all the data that they have everybody's work Parasite is phoning home at some point And then you still have your internal stuff as well So maybe add 5% to it but then you will get a number that is saying something Cause these percentages yeah Has anybody got the number for the WordPress project I'll just give them a quick call and just tell us on the other hand the press Gazette just published an article about news websites that are using different CMSs and WordPress declined a bit during this year So while it was growing in the Online newspapers For many years this year there was a very small but the decline also there is one more thing that we also have to remember that I'm not sure Or how does this guessing which CMS is used work works because we are using more and more headless approaches and sometimes work can be hidden in a very good way So there is a chance that some of the websites that are marked as other are WordPress I still think that's a very small percentage given the total but you're right That's also one of the things that muddies the water in terms of what are we looking at I think it's an primarily a great marketing method that we have That's focused on the percentage of a small niche And use that as a metric but the reality is we have absolutely no clue It's very big numbers and they're scary big And But it gives me some sort of confidence at least anyway that people who can put together big numbers are making them big And it makes me feel yes I should be part of this ecosystem is it's growing That's right Thank goodness for that Okay Let's just say a few hellos Hello Darren Hello Darren Pender Nice for you to join us I don't know that I've met you before Nice to see you and Daniel Thanks for joining us again Nice to see you max coming back to the point we had a little bit I'll go where we were talking about contributing and who does what it says The there is the code level of contributing but in the future we'll be able to contribute patterns photos and designs or blocks Yeah Good point It would appear that the photo library is growing fairly steady I I myself I'm a lousy photographer so I'm not going to be uploading my photos but that would be one way that like have you what was it I don't remember Oh you peachy keen photographer or are you just going to just put your I U

Used to be one of my main streams of income I used to have I still have lots of photos on a shutter stock I took them down from other sites because at some point I was really upset by the exploitative system So they're usually they pay you 20 P to if an image costs $1 I get 20 they got 80 which is yeah It's like that payment Sometimes when you start it's probably more like 10 90 but I left them up in websites that made it difficult for me to destroy the portfolio So just out of laziness I haven't seen them off forever but then my quotes is I can put them wherever I want So yeah There's Michelle saying hi from New York She she has contributed quite a lot of the photos I think because she's a very keen photographer I think quite a few of them actually are hers peachy You would be happy with that approach Obviously at some point in the past you wish to turn your photos into revenue You want to upload them somewhere Have you moved to a point where those exact same photos you would now be happy to just put them up there because it's not what you primarily do now You'd be okay with that It's more that if I'm making 20 P on each of them I'd rather give them away for free but what's I and also some They're old now they're like from 10 years ago So farm I don't feel possessive anymore but what I would need to do is really take them off the paid sites I think I don't think I dunno if I can if it's ethical or logical to offer them as paid for on some sites and free on others so I'd have to but there's literally there's I think Shutterstock is all right but there's another site that I'm on That's called Dreamstime that it literally wants me to delete I have thousands like 2000 maybe more And they the only way for me to deactivate my portfolio is to Take each image off delete each image one by one I was like I'm some held captive by Dreamstime because I could not be bothered to do that W

Who could maybe if you close your account down entirely paycheck basically there's no I don't know if it's changed now but I remember getting so upset that I had to just leave it put it aside because he was just angry at me too much It's just this crazy You know what This is picture This is a dark Peter And I are doing this show every month called the WP builds UI UX show And one of the things that we want to get Peacher talking about is dark patterns And that's a really good one where we'll make it really hard for you to get off our platform Apparently I don't know how true this is because I've never tried it Apparently It's really hard to erase your Facebook data And I don't mean hard Does it impossible How does in just a multitude of steps that you've got to go through in the correct order if you want to make that certain Robert Keynes is saying right now sounds like being captive by Facebook And also I used to have a pre I have a previous Facebook account that's I simply I'm not using anymore And I tried to download my archive cruises years and years and I was not able ever because in theory you are able to download your art And when you know a cart I they never let me I don't even know whether I'd be able to get back into it now can I make the appeal of Nathan Obviously we're doing our own research but if one of the things that we would like is if you come across the patterns and that's any annoying any clickbait any annoying thing that gets you wants you to do something that you didn't want to do online or in an email or anything like that please let us know send us screenshots or URLs or whatever And then we'll talk about it on the show because we're on a mission to end dark faxes So last time I took Nathan and the audience through what it's like Try and book a flight with Ryanair and rings of fire that they have you jump through So things like that This is our show I didn't mean to stray into this but as you've raised it I've put it on the screen It's th WP bills.com forward slash a UI and we've got a dark patterns field here Now if you come across the dark pan I sent you one earlier in the week picture don't If you've got it on the other platform that we communicate on And and it was really annoying but this seems to be more and more any way that I was actually thinking that because that form Nathan obliges you to W.

Website as well Maybe we should explain that people can use it even just for the talk after an only and so not make that Okay I will make that field Yeah that's fine I can do that I was deliberately making it awfully difficult to fill out it was really hoping that people would stumble at the last hurdle and the form would remain dark It was a dark farm It was really dark Okay I think we're done with the ginormous 80 of the WordPress ecosystem right I think this is fabulously Interesting You may think I'm a nerd but I love this So I don't know how this came in my direction I think this was Twitter and I follow Matt Mullenweg and he doesn't post on Twitter very much And so when I see them I look at them and he was I think he was retweeting Somebody called Joel Spolsky and I could've got the nurse the surname wrong I think that's right Who is the founder of all sorts of amazing stuff online like Trello stack exchange And he was saying that he's he wants to build I say Hey I'm guessing his organization through this website called the block protocol.org wants to build in interoperability between Everywhere on the internet So at the moment if you imagine it your blocks and your WordPress website that's where your block lives Everything inside that block belongs there and it's not going anywhere It's staying there and he wants to make an open standard So that any block of any kind what just WordPress any kind on the internet can communicate in some way shape or form wants to flesh out this protocol So block protocol.org is the premise If I'd have made this website nobody take it seriously because I'm an idiot but him doing it it makes me think I think maybe this is a fairly serious a serious endeavor so much so that Matt then retweeted something along the lines of yeah we should get together and start to talk about this So I don't know I don't know if this is something that excites you I love the idea of stuff on my website Being able to be somewhere else It just seems fabulous Not as clever as L

Let's go round maybe cause cross token let's go with REM because to start with so I think it's an interesting premise It and then in many ways will be the thing that merges the internet together Because if everything is a block and a block is just a concept but if everything is a unit of data that is interchangeable with any other type of CMS or platform because that really ought to be a platform as well then then the next step is a collection of blocks And then what do we need to CMS for That will be the flavor right That will be your preferred way of working with the blocks I like that concept I like that concept E

Especially if you could if it was interoperable to the point where you could just flip and flop between CMS says I've got a friend who's building a website and he constantly flips between WordPress and other things A.

And each time it's a London this line in the sand you have to start again But if you could just take the blocks that you've got on one platform and push them somewhere else CMS is a one thing but it could be anything couldn't It could be like your content management system or your CRM or whatever it might be Yeah It R

Reminds me a little bit about the indie web movement They it's on a different level because they are more about from one from one website communicating to another one But I think in essence there's a similarity in wanting to be interconnected in all the ways So if you combine this with indie web there is something interesting that would mean we can actually start to get rid of the company that should not be named anymore but the one who lost 25 of their their worth over a an accounting thing I think it's an interesting approach It's going to take a lot of years but it's an interesting approach to for also for independence I guess Yeah Yeah My check Will you got any thoughts on this It struck me that this was right up yours Yeah this is because this sounds really interesting And I totally agree with what we drank was that this would really connect the whole web together It would be like amazing The problem is with all the standards Many companies likes to have their own standards We know about many companies that prefer to to close the API APIs and start doing things their own way A.

Are let's take a look at at WordPress We even have our own code standard which no one else uses And for some reason we are sticking with it And this is the thing I would be a bit afraid of that Okay Let's say that 10 years from this point The Brock the block protocol is it's working many pennies has adopted it at the shore We would have block protocol or presentation This is something that lets me a bit so I'm afraid that for example Gutenberg will be the hybrid of let's say is block protocol at Gutenberg itself which in result what didn't work as a chew because everyone will have the same standard but still I'm really keeping my fingers crossed because this is something that it's not only a beautiful the beautiful ID But the fact that the child really did some amazing things and he's really a non-person over the internet So maybe he will push the project and maybe it will work We'll see And when they were inventing like the railway system in the UK like a hundred years ago or something there was no protocol for how big the rail was should be And so you would basically get to a station and the train which should just carry on in a straight line It's a swap the train because the wheels were of a different size And so it went on for decades is my understanding until somebody said look this is enough We need a protocol for how big the trains are And so that was that And I imagine the same thing happened with the networking and the switching on the internet You could imagine every country having a totally different IP stack or something but somebody thankfully got in there and said no this is how TCP IP is going to work All the packets are going to be moved in this way T.

That's and wouldn't it be nice if content data could be treated in the same way as well That's the best analogy I've ever made in my life It hurts Oh dear But there you go But wouldn't it be nice Wouldn't it be nice if five years into the future we could look back at this moment and say actually that was the moment where everything became interoperable I think you're right My check I think it's got he's a guy that maybe could do it but history shows doesn't it It's not easy to do How long have we had the block editor Two two and a bit years Is it three Yeah 3 26 Yeah You're right You're right Yeah I don't know what happened Nathan Five years in a decade type thing unless Matt actually again we talked about agendas earlier If this suddenly appears on the agenda It'll happen faster but it's a beautiful idea I like what it's proposals I like what options it it presents I would check it out anyway it is block protocol.org and you can see that they've got the usual documentation specifications and stuff And if this stuff excites you I think it's worth having a look at all right From Interesting too I don't know if this is interesting or just really frustrating I don't know why everybody sits on GDPR whether it's a good thing whether it's bitten you whether you find it to be a pain depending on where your jurisdiction is bots this week Sarah Gooding tells us that a German court has find a website owner I'm sure that's pretty much all of us our website owner because they were using Google hosted fonts And you think to yourself what how does that work It turns out that the IP address and I think specifically the IP address nothing more was of the person viewing the website was taken Over to the United States And although the fine was very small it was a hundred euros which I'm guessing was maybe just a judge's way of saying okay let's see how this progresses in the future The fact is somebody got fined and it's probably having to modify things in the future because the GDPR does not allow this But I wonder how many of us didn't know that the DPL didn't allow this but also whether or not some of us think okay is an IP address worth it I know that's the rules So I'm opening it up I'm going to throw the grenade again and I'm pulling the pin this time You pull it gone really hard Throw it right Yeah I had an interesting discussion with Matt sorry Matt I forgot your last name right Last week essentially about this where so there's a different approach of what is an IP address in terms of how does it become a private thing And my logic was very simple If it can be traced to the whereabouts of someone it can be traced back to who that person is It's as simple and as straightforward as that And if that is the case it is privacy and it falls on the GDPR There's no two ways about it You can make it two ways about it because Matt Cromwell there you go Remember the name You can make it about more or less but in all actuality it allows you and there's various techniques of doing so to pinpoint who that person on the internet is If that wasn't the case then IP addresses wouldn't matter in terms of if a police member comes to your house and knocks on the door and says Hey we just noticed that you were downloading an illegal movie How do you know We have the IP address and that's how we found you So it's a non-discussion trying to make that in a non privacy thing It is a privacy thing period It's interesting that in the article they're quoting from the the case it says an old quote the defendant violated the plaintiff's right to informational self-determination by forwarding And this is the interesting one the dynamic IP address So it wasn't a fixed IP address or anything It was just dynamic but obviously the ISP can totally link that to you A hundred percent of the time they know who you are but it is the ISP The ISP is way more than just the ISP Yeah that's a good point These I feel that the debate feels like it's taking shape in different ways in Europe and in north America I.

It feels that it's going in different directions I could be wrong about that but anyway a very small fine a hundred euros not too much but presumably just a sort of warning shot across some bowels Of course the solution is fairly straightforward You could just download the Google font and have that on your own website And that's possible of course there's always a plugin for that but yeah the GDPR Google we'll once connect with with Google fonts Yes But it downloads it and your websites Yeah Yeah Once it breaks the GDPR Oh I see the moment that you download it It's only once N

No. But you as a website your website your server downloads the Google farms So that's not disclosing an IP address for anyone It depends Where is your server Yeah N

Not the user Yeah actually this is yeah this is educates when For example using a static website building government and local downloading and pushing it backs up for a moment you break the GDPR like I said an edge case but overall this whole case this whole case of GDPR and American companies because the Google fonts it's not the only problem right now We only have the problem with Google analytics wet with Austria without SRE link And Germany's probably going to second this so much closer to home also touches this exactly We have avatar I already sold that there is an issue The Gravatar breaking the GDPR So it does Yes it does Of course it does Yeah So overall this will be very interesting when it comes to the to what will be happening on the line between the American companies are even hosting things on servers owned by American component Europe NPR This will be a really I think it will be a really big and it can evolve in different ways the article which I'll put back on the screen just temporarily goes on to make the point that the fine of a hundred euros is really just a drop in the ocean because the I can't remember the numbers that they talked about but the potential for you to be fined for this violation Kind of co business ending amounts of money It could go through the roof I'm guessing that in most cases you would there is some company that's going to think Hey I can make money off of this and start suing Yeah Yeah What do they call that ambulance chasing or something where the lawyers have a department where they go and find violating websites package it up in a script and go and robot the internet to figure out who's got Google fonts or whoever it might be Yeah really interesting Sorry Peter I think we've locked you out of this debate What do you think No that's right I was listening intently because I don't know enough about it And therefore ranks his explanation was a very useful to me because in terms of the GDPR and UX It has not improved things because now you land on a website and you're like interrupted and upset by a million notices and things But I had read this news piece of news and I'm grateful that it was explained to me But I'm more sitting here listening and learning really a quick poll I would say that three or four times a day I visit a new website and I get the cookie thing where they want to manage my cookies And this goes to what you were just saying Peacher And very often I get the option to manage my cookies which is usually somewhat smaller button which is perhaps not even a button it's just some great out text or something And then I got the big fat green accept all cookies button Honestly I'm so wary of it I just think oh I'm just going to click the green button and clear the caches like once in a while I'm just I never oh that's what I always click the manage cookies And do you read them and manage the last word No. I you so you it depends on if it's a European company doing or an American company will have option a everything options Maybe nothing but still some stuff was put in there but European companies mostly have the same type of cookie consent You click on the alternate link and then you can the nine out of 10 you have two or three things you uncheck and then you say and then again dark pattern again it says save or allow all And then you think what I just did is allow all but what it actually means no safe preference It's a small little link s

so I always get that I'm using brave browser by default to also block right I'm going to use brave as well But we are people who understand what we're doing Think about someone like my mother who uses her phone all the time but she doesn't know what she's doing She goes into a panic She's what is this What am I doing What if I'm clicking on the wrong thing what's going to happen to me Because we pass the her not to say yes to things because she gets lots of yeah So it's yeah I don't see a way out of that I don't know how to I tried with cloud ways we did quite a few webinars with you bend up and I tried to get from them How can we make it better But the thing is that it's not their job Their job is to make you compliant not to improve the UX but that's something that would be very interesting to properly get into And I occasionally do what you do REM cause very oh sorry You carry them No I was gonna say I think in all honesty this needs to be solved by browsers And then we have the disadvantage We have the big disadvantage that the largest browser that is currently in use is built by Chrome Now the Chrome engine is pretty good which is why it's Firefox offer a kind of template for what cookies you may wish in other words is there any protocol for if this kind of cookie do this if this do this or any of that it's possible someone built something for that I don't know I don't check that because I don't I wouldn't trust I would dress it anyway but but yeah this is an extreme dark pattern built upon another dark pattern built upon another dark pattern And this should all just never be in the face of y.

Your browser should have settings and those settings should be honored Period Done Move on Yeah that is I hadn't even thought about that That's fascinating I've got quite a lot of commentary coming in Thank you max for saying about this Robert started off with saying this seems to be the new reality And then we were specifically talking about the fine for the Google fonts And max was saying that he thought that this was a good thing And then he goes on to talk about Facebook and Google Chrome and so on Yeah it's a really interesting subject It's like the is it just a tangled mess really And the idea that people like us who are I am on the internet all the time and I've just got complete atrophy Is that the right word Attrition I'm just bored of it I just can't be bothered REM cause I wish I was Be bothered to give myself that 22nd window I know even Steve Jobs apparently he never this is never going away No room Cause I'm sorry episode Yeah I think that's a genius idea though If we had the browser take control of it and essentially just Sox that problem away Are you Peacher of D I've got rid of Chrome off every machine this week I found it impossible to do that on Android so I just disabled it A.

And I'm using brown And I've got I'm really happy with it It's exactly the same as far as I can tell but without an I don't know exactly what's going on under the hood but I've installed a thing called you block origin as well which you might want to look at which is a nice little Chrome I.

In this case brave extension cause brave and Chrome extensions are identical If it's available on Chrome it's available on brain and it purports to do a good job of blocking things that I would not like to be So b

[01:51:16] Nathan Wrigley: But this is helpful for us as users but what about us as website creators How do we make it better Because I'm still, I use you Benda but first of all, with the web standards S G for all un-empowered by the community. So it's an open source design tool. I know. Also

[01:51:39] Piccia Neri: a bit like Figma. I was

[01:51:41] Nathan Wrigley: thinking, yeah. I don't really use Facebook, so don't really know, but it does look like that.

Doesn't it, I'm looking, we're looking at the screenshot and it's pre-configured templates and mock-ups for things like mobile phones and what have you. And what , caught me really was that the UI looks really nice and that it's totally free. So I just thought I'd drop it in purely for that, it's maybe a thing worth looking at, but it does look nice.

And then finally, okay. Pizza, if you do have a play with it, tell us what your thoughts were next time you , okay. And the last one, this was brought on the show , by Matt chick, who this is a piece over, I love this domain coder jerk.com. I want that to mean Coda jerked.com. And it's called the complicated futility of WordPress.

Now I don't want to butcher it, but Matt, do you want to, do you want to introduce while you've dropped it in? What was peaking your.

[01:52:38] Maciek Palmowski: Yeah. Yeah. I like to read articles about how WordPress is not what it was and stuff like that. A lot of them are just ramblings. But, here, I must admit the Dan has some points.

Okay there is a lot of rambling here too. But it is true that WordPress is changing and this change, and it's rather difficult for for many developers. I think that many developers feel a bit uncertain about where work is going. Are we trying to be the next weeks, our web flow?

Are we still going to be the same? I want it to say developer friendly environment. And we are a bit also a bit legacy development environment. Like I said I understand some points made by Dan about this uncertainty team. But also I saw a few comments over Twitter, for example by align Alan Schussler.

Put your, his name. Yeah. And he also, so some things that then was right about, especially the fact how good Annenberg is mixing the layer that is responsible for a website, how a website looks and for the data. And so yeah, there are many problems and. And we can see right now that WordPress looks like it's only concentrating on full side that they think, because whenever we look at the latest releases, we only see news about block editor, full-size deleting.

And I understand why PHP developers can feel like like I said, they can feel uncertain about the future because it really starts to feel that what are those PHP things that we have in core. And that really requires some love for few years already. Will there ever be fixed or change or are we even trying to update the minimal PHP version?

What is happening here? Especially when, on the other hand, we are pushing with Gutenberg to be a. What almost with the latest versions where using package managers. So everything, when w we always heard about PHP stuff that we have to remember about backward compatibility when it comes to Gutenberg, it doesn't work.

So yes, overall, It's complicated.

[01:55:43] Nathan Wrigley: It's really interesting. Cause this is a guy Dan. I confess, I don't know, Dan divine, I'm going to say it's probably his name, but he's obviously got a bit of a love, hate relationship with WordPress over the years. It feels like he's been almost forced into liking it.

And more recently he's, this is enough. Gutenberg is enough. That's the line in the sand, which he refuses to cross and he made this point. So this comes off. The website you have is obviously very bullish, very into Gutenberg and helped create it. Yoast say full site editing is a huge development for WordPress.

The upshot is that you have more control than ever over the design of your site, et cetera, et cetera. More of the same. And then his replies, which I really like the thoughts of a client side, mark. Of client side marketing interns playing around with site-wide designs should make the blood of any web professional run cold sites that have been painstakingly designed and built, reviewed, and refined to the last detail.

Every step of the way was stakeholders on the client side, optimizing UX, legibility performance, and upholding the client's brand can now be squelched in an instant by somebody with three months into the job. First yellow,

[01:57:00] Remkus de Vries: I, I would immediately counter with, but this has always been, this is not as late. It'd be more to answer the, this paragraph better. Yes you have a whole bunch of controls now, right? You can have all these wonderful things in fo inside of a full site editing or just a block editor inside of content, whatever.

Sure. But any agency worth their salt would also remove the things or configure the things to the point where that's exactly what they should need. So I think it's a moot argument or. There's going to be an old bitch and moan about is all the, as much in as long as you want. But the bottom line is you have tools to your availability to make it a lockdown version.

If that's what you need to have

[01:57:57] Nathan Wrigley: the the capability in the near future for things to be locked down inside of the block editor. So who gets access to. Hopefully, that's going to be much more, yeah, much more robust than we have at the moment.

[01:58:11] Remkus de Vries: If a paragraph is allowed to have 20 pixel.

[01:58:15] Nathan Wrigley: Yes. Yes. I do wonder if there was a literal moment where somebody did actually want the button yellow in Dan's life, where the website was destroyed and the client actually said, but I wanted it yellow, but look what you did.

You spent four hours trying to find the yellow, just phone us up and tell us you want it yellow. Okay. There we go. That's it. Unless peaches got anything to say about that?

[01:58:47] Piccia Neri: The one thing that Springs to mind is that when you have schooled a client properly on accessibility and UX, they will not ask for yellow because you have an answer to them saying you may.

But this is not going to be compliant. It's not going to be legible, blah, blah, blah. So you can actually, or if they want the logo bigger, if you know what you're doing, you always have an answer.

[01:59:12] Nathan Wrigley: There is no yellow. We don't have yellow here from the yellow. That's it. That's it we've reached the hour and a half stage.

We've done. We've done number 195. I really appreciate it. Thank you to Matt check. Thank you to picture and thank you to stay. REM coz for joining us today, really, I'm going to get it in the neck when this called lens we'll we'll hopefully see you on the next show. We'll be back every Monday, 2:00 PM, UK time.

And here comes the awkward moment. Matt check that you don't know about, and that is we have to all weigh. If we have to raise our hands like this and wave at the same time, RM. Cause I looked at all right. Okay. If everybody's going to do as well. There we go. That's it. The awkward moment is over. Thank you for coming and joining us.

We'll see you again soon. Take it easy. Oh.