Discussion – Are we boring?
This discussion is another based on the book Watertight Marketing by Bryony Thomas which gives us 13 areas where we (or our clients) could be leaking potential business. With this series, we are working our way up an imaginary funnel starting first with our existing customers (Leak #1), then our on-boarding for leads (Leak #2) Now we are looking at…..
It might be a good idea (although it’s certainly not essential) to go back and listen to the following episodes with you have not already. These are the episodes which came before this one:
- 149 – Marketing funnels don’t exist!
- 151 – Are we leaking clients?
- 153 – Losing clients before you even get them
Leak #3 – No emotional connection – Your brand or reputation – what kind of people are you?
All of the elements above come together to really sum up what your company is about. It’s what will determine how it feels to be a customer of yours.
It is what builds your company’s reputation. This happens over time, but there are some foundations you need to lay. And those are what your company looks and sounds like.
If you’ve worked hard to make sure it’s easy to do business with you, and that your service is helpful and friendly – but what’s written on your website is hard to read, and the imagery you’ve chosen is cold and distant – you’re missing a trick.
Technology companies are often a prime example of this. They think that they need to make it clear that they do technical things, and use pictures of servers and wires to illustrate this. But… people aren’t buying things, but things that help them do something.
Your company’s visual identity is built up through things like colour, typography, imagery and layout. A visual identity that expresses the real character of your business, and hooks into the emotional needs that your services fulfil will work harder for you than one that is wholly logically driven.
Your visual identity is important in getting people to understand your business. The written and spoken word are also essential, as well as the tone you use. For some reason, people often feel that when it comes to writing something official, like copy for a company website, they need to adopt a formal writing style. But, it can be much more compelling to write in a more ‘spoken word’ style. Think about how you would speak if you were in a room with the people you have in mind; write as if you’re actually talking to them.
- Visual identity checklist
- Tone of voice checklist
- Can you template it? (branding in docs and emails)
- Photography checklist
- Show some personality
I think that it’s pretty clear that David and I are both pretty boring, but hopefully this chat will give you some ideas so that you don’t have to be!
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript (if available)
These transcripts are created using software, so apologies if there are errors in them.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:00:00] Welcome to the WP Builds podcast bringing you the latest news from the WordPress community Welcome your host David Waumsley Nathan Wrigley
Hello there and welcome to this the WP Builds podcast This is episode number 155 entitled are we boring It was published on Thursday the 21st of November, 2019 My name's Nathan Wrigley and just before we begin the podcast proper I'd like to point out a few bits and pieces a bit of housekeeping if you like Well black Friday is just around the corner not long to wait now and you may well be aware but loads and loads of WordPress products reduce their prices dramatically during this period and it can be really difficult trying to decide What to get and where to go And with that in mind I've created a page over at WP builds.com forward slash Black that's WP Builds.com forward slash Black and it's a whole great list of things that I found out about Now there's a yellow button in the center called search and filter deals and if you click on that you'll be able to Kind of filter them down You can search for the ones that you hoped to be there and you can also filter by the type of plugin or how much they've got off And really it's just just a nice easy page to find everything There are also options on there If you want to receive email updates click on the the button which says receive email updates and I will send you a very short plain text version of the latest deals as they come in And also if you are a plugin or theme developer or something like that there's a did we miss this deal Tell us button and fill out that form as well and I might be able to put that onto the page We're also offering some sponsorship options on that page and what I mean by that is we're going to put our sponsors right at the top of the page and hopefully that will obviously increase the amount of sales that you get Certainly appreciate anybody who uses this page it really does help To keep the WP Builds podcast going because I am using some affiliate links over there Anyway WP Builds.com forward slash blackened a yeah I think that's a good place to go this week The other one that I'd mentioned is WP Builds.com forward slash advertise if you would like to have your product or service placed in front of a WordPress specific audience on WP Builds WP Builds is brought to you today by page builder cloud work faster and your page builder of choice by reusing your cloud Save templates important export any layouts to any of your WordPress websites Page builder cloud works with Elementor Beaver builder breezy Guttenberg and many more And you can set up a free trial today at page builder cloud.co And WP feedback our client communications eating up all of your time If so check out WP feedback It's a visual feedback tool for WordPress that's specifically designed to get you on your clients on the same page and you can check this [email protected] And cloud ways Cloudways is a managed cloud-based hosting platform for WordPress Unlike others they let you choose the service from top cloud providers like Google cloud Amazon and digital ocean There are no restrictions on the number of websites per server Try cloud ways using promo code WP Builds and get $20 free hosting credits and we certainly do thank all of our sponsors for helping us to put on the WP Builds podcast Right Let's get on with the main part of the podcast where I'm episode number 155 entitled are we boring I think David warms the and I would both have to say yes we probably are This is the leak number three We've been doing a series based upon a book called water type marketing by Briony Thomas We've done leaks one and two and the idea is that This book is trying to encourage us to identify aspects of our business where essentially clients come our way but we somehow manage to lose them for one reason or another And in this one really this episode although it's entitled are we boring It's about brand representation It's about choosing your brand so that people are very very clear on what it is that you're offering And they're also kind of Now that they're getting into your branding they're enjoying what you're saying the language that you're using the colors that you're using the fonts that you're using the character that you're using I think it's all too easy in technology for us to put pictures of wires and computer screens and things like that But maybe that doesn't necessarily chime with your customers or your possible customers So in this episode we talk about the things that we've done to try and shore these up and I would commend it to you It was Fun chatting today with this week about it Are we boring
David Waumsley: [00:04:56] This discussion is based on the book watertight marketing by Briony Thomas is she's given us 13 areas or topics for us where we or our clients could be leaking potential business So we've already started this series and we're working our way up A an imaginary funnel So we started off where we were talking about existing customers we have there's a potential leak there if they don't know all of what we do or they don't still feel connected to us and could forget about us Then we moved on to Onboarding That's the point where we may have a lead They may have even paid us but they're not yet psychologically attached to us They feel they are our customer and we could lose them in that onboarding So now we're moving onto what she calls emotional connection leak Number three all about our brand our reputation how we portray and make a connection with people the type of people we are
Nathan Wrigley: [00:05:53] So just to topic Yeah Just to be clear is this this is about people that we don't really have a current relationship with It's about maybe they come across our website or maybe some of our printed materials that we leave lying around in various places so they're not our customer yet We haven't necessarily hadn't yet an interaction with them but we're talking about how they perceive our brand and whether or not that switches them off or makes them pick up the phone or contact us in some way that kind of thing
David Waumsley: [00:06:23] Yeah exactly It really is Brandon And I guess the interesting thing because I guess there's all types in in the people that we talk to our audience in terms of people who build websites that's what keeps us together But some are very much on the marketing the brand inside So this is second nature to them I think you and I are more of the well we technically know how to put this website together but the rest of it is we're a bit poor on
Nathan Wrigley: [00:06:47] yes I would agree with that Yep
David Waumsley: [00:06:49] Yeah So we kind of probably fail on this so we'd probably need this discussion more than most of the people listening to it But yeah I struggle with this area Branding It's really made me think about This because I just don't think I get a message over that connects emotionally with people cause I don't know necessarily what it is that they want
Nathan Wrigley: [00:07:10] Yeah I think from my perspective this is the kind of thing that I revisit Like once every Goodness me like five years or something You know there'll be a point where I look at my own website which I confess I don't do very often at all and I will suddenly say no it looks no good It's not It's not what I want anymore It's looking tired Mostly it's driven by design Know I'm looking at it and suddenly thinking Bye I'm I haven't adapted the way it looks you know website designers moved on such in such leaps and bounds since I last touched it that it now needs to be done And I've done that several times So over the last I don't know 1215 years or whatever it is I've iterated on it quite a few times but but I don't I'm not the kind of person that goes back and fixate fixates upon it and tweaks it very very often Whereas I know that at the minute you're very much involved in that process and you're having a different dilemma aren't you Whereas you're you're trying to tweak it maybe too much
David Waumsley: [00:08:12] Yeah absolutely And I don't think I've got my message over all what it is how I want to connect with people but we're different aren't we Because I think you can get away with not having to worry about this too much because I think you attract people who are local to you so you've only got your local competitors to worry about and then you make that they early connection where they see you and that Being you is your brand in really isn't it
Nathan Wrigley: [00:08:36] That's very helpful Yeah In the sense that it is much more of a local business You're obviously based in all different parts of the world at various times of the year so you need to have a much bigger footprint if you like Mine is local clients local people so that's much more straightforward for me to pull off without having to tweak it Whereas you because you're trying to find people from random places on the internet Need to get the messaging really really clear and it needs to be really clear so that it's bang up to date all the time
David Waumsley: [00:09:09] Yeah Do you think in a way this section is is talking about the same things as life heard it from Troy Dean and Chris Lema this message that we really need to sell the benefits not the features of what we do when we're to say building our website for clients
Nathan Wrigley: [00:09:25] Do you know it's really interesting because David and I I should say to anybody listening we often have quite a lengthy chat before we begin recording this and I am going to be repeating something I said to David before I I'm not sure If I'm in the minority here but I really like being advertised the features more than I do the benefits And I I gave you an example didn't I about car adverts and I just randomly talked about BMW but this could apply to anybody You know I have a very strong recollection that when I was a child The advertisements for cars were much more on the features You know it's got this new gizmo the the windows that are electric cars that was you know a thing back then And the car stereo looks like this and it's got speakers in these locations and the you know the the F the real wheel drive is is a big feature And that all worked for me I was I was able to grab hold of that Whereas now if I watch a BMW advert I'm essentially Going through like a movie trailer and it feels like they're trying to sell me a lifestyle So the car is driving through some city late at night with high rise buildings And you know the people that are in the car are very glamorous and they're obviously going out for a fantastic night and then they step out and there's the opera house or so Do you know what I mean So the point being that they're trying to sell me a lifestyle And I want the features but the fact that all of the companies selling cars are doing it in the lifestyle way kind of leads me to believe that I'm in the minority But I I prefer the features So I don't think that kind of marketing is dead I just think I'm probably in the minority
David Waumsley: [00:11:06] Yeah And I think it couldn't I don't know if that would work for us We wouldn't have the budget for that kind of thing I can understand why they do the the lifestyle thing because that's going to even if you don't take it all in you're going to associate yes Probably in the back of your mind this is a pop market stuff People who drive these cars you know This isn't really top notch stuff but really when it comes down to the decision making you still gonna probably go into different garages and check out the prices and whether it's going to fit your criteria and it's just maybe going to nudge you over the edge over the competition These adverts which had been there for long time saying well you know this lifestyle stuff that clearly this is a good product I don't know if we can do that with our websites We have to Most people are just going to land on the website to see whether we would be the right designer for them Yes they're going to need some some some facts.
Nathan Wrigley: [00:11:58] is interesting because I suppose if we're advertising ourselves as a website building business the technical details are significant and important but I guess at some point there's a you know there's a sort of disconnect here You can if you Think about it clearly and carefully You can advertise the feel of having a new website you know we we've been browsing and having a look at various rivals to WordPress in the sort of SAS space things like Squarespace and and whatnot And they don't really advertise the features Quite as much as just sort of loop Look how simple and easy this'll be Look how great your life's going to be So I think I think it's possible to do both but it feels to me like the the w the modern way of doing it is to hide the features behind the sort of lifestyle advertising if you know what I mean So they come later
David Waumsley: [00:12:55] Yes Yeah I mean we looked at Squarespace and they do remarkably well We just face simple titles and that because the Amy that how I guess you can get control over what you want and it's kind of difficult for us because for most people we are providing a service so it's going to be about what the website is going to look like for probably most people who are coming there I don't know Do you know this is the interesting thing I just wonder When people come to a website are they asking for the thing that we think we're selling to them So if we're a bit of a designer and we think that we might be able to design pages to get them more business when probably likely to advertise that And I just wonder which is what I see I think with clients That I have is that actually they kind of see us more as the it guy who just you know does something for them that they couldn't do themselves
Nathan Wrigley: [00:13:48] Yeah I'm just trying to think whether I've ever managed to onboard a client who didn't at some point want to know about the detail And the answer I think is no I think they all at some point wish to have that detail but those conversations come after Getting them through the you know some kind of a process whereby they recognize that you're worth a phone call And maybe as we were just saying a moment ago maybe this kind of benefits over features What what was it what's the exact wording I can never remember that The the Chris Lemmer Troy Dean thing It's features Oh I don't know As opposed to I can't remember But anyway the point being that I think if you can I think the features conversation always comes up But the whether or not I'm doing a great job of getting enough phone calls because I kind of like advertising the features is is is a point which would probably need further discussion
David Waumsley: [00:14:48] Yeah and I think it's hard at turning things into benefits without them also sounding like lies because you know if you try and say well what you know you get this website then you start to and I see this you know happen I think I've been guilty of that on my first attempts to do websites of Kind of seeing what this is going to do So you hear people say well you know a website will you try and convince them of all the benefits of a website It's like a cheap employee that works 24 seven for you and it kind of sounds fake and it's the same You know there's a website that's going to get you more leads I find this maybe it's just because we have similar on this one cynical but I don't know if that actually works
Nathan Wrigley: [00:15:29] I don't know I suppose it's also the fact that you and I are in this space and so have some sort of perception of how realistic those metrics are But clearly the fact that there is many many internet entrepreneurs who manage to create gigantic businesses out of kind of misleading features I think shows well demonstrates that people are open to to that kind of marketing
David Waumsley: [00:15:54] Yeah absolutely We were talking a little bit we we're not going to get into politics here but just you know you know the emotional works When you look at the kind of campaigns the Brexit campaign for us and and the presidential elections of 2016 you can see that some of the messaging and how they can reach people and tie into what people are feeling about their sense of control on their emotions to be able to effectively send messages because they can connect emotionally With people It's quite startling Particularly I think it's a big shakeup isn't it In in politics because politics has largely been about presenting I was in the civil service so I know this It was about presenting sort of cold hard facts that people needed to know People can't connect with those in the same way that they can And we see this change don't we I think in politics it's changed the way there's a whole There's a Winston Churchill quote and I can't remember exactly what it is about this document begging not to be read a civil service document And it's like that isn't it If your approach is too detailed about what you're going to get Exactly And it doesn't find the core of what people are feeling or how they're going to feel about themselves you're not gonna meet them by I don't know how to do that in our business
Nathan Wrigley: [00:17:11] I suppose it also depends on what stage you are in the in the buying of a website process and again this is I'm not buying a website so this just sort of strikes me that I needed to buy a window an actual window for my house the other day And and I I didn't go browsing around for glamorous looking websites that advertise like the the how how wonderful my life would be if I purchased this window I literally wanted a window And so I needed something that told me what it was made of How much it costs and what the dimensions were and so on So that was like really really features based But I think if I was a company looking for and I've got my small business and the business is very close to my heart and I want it to be successful If I'm going to be trolling around a bunch of rival website design build agencies I think that stuff could have a dramatic impact you know depending on how How successful you were at planting an arrow in my heart You know you pull my heartstrings Something about the the way it looks that the color palette the the softness of the way it's been put together the language that's been used the font all of that stuff I think that would be really really significant But I struggled to empathize with it because as I've said 10 minutes ago it's not the way my brain seems to work
David Waumsley: [00:18:38] Yeah and I think you know the in the the chapter in the book or the section on this on the league that's really very much pointing out this kind of thing I think you need to well obviously it's going to help to have Something that's congruent all the way through so that your your imagery is matching up the kind of words that you're saying and that you've got that's all linking into the personality you have as a brand So I think when she's talking about this topic she's talking about businesses who may be not even thought about it half as much as we need to in our business So I think there are some You know just some quick wins anyway for any business out there who needs to just think about their brand in and make sure they're consistent You know I didn't know what I'm really rubbish at this stuff Cause if I recently I sent out some cold cold emails and I'm I was looking at this and I thought it made me think again about how I'm going to make that sort of emotional connection with people So I shoved in a little picture of me and then a little sort of bio at the end and in a way it was quite convincing at the at the bottom of the photo if anybody got to that bit It's sort of explained what we did but then I realized it just didn't have it on any of my other emails that I've been sending people for years You know forgetting to actually put the brand in place where it needs to be seen
Nathan Wrigley: [00:19:53] So consistency is I suppose important This is a an interesting point If if like us and probably people listening to this you have a a a a website a business You build websites for people and and you feel that it's time for a bit of a refresh Is this the kind of thing that you You would need to do wholesale Do you need to kind of on one day click a button which migrates your brand new site over Or are you more into kind of iterating over time Just tweaking things here and there because that's really not the way The I have done it I've just suddenly got fed up with what I've what I'm offering and I've rebuilt it quietly on my own machine you know not connected to the internet Then made sure that you know all the redirects had on and everything and then at one moment in time click a button and the whole site is changed That's just how I seem to behave
David Waumsley: [00:20:49] Do you change all your brand assets So do your fonts the new colors do
Nathan Wrigley: [00:20:53] they have done that several times You know literally the whole entire thing has changed overnight Yeah Yeah I've done that a couple of times It just works for me in terms of I can concentrate on it get it done because I can see myself getting caught up in like a molasses of wanting to tweak things Whereas if I just suddenly release it at that point I can then kind of let go with it I know that's not the best advice should be constantly tweaking it but as you've said earlier in my situation that doesn't seem to be Super significant so I just launch it do it on one moment in time maybe set a week aside or something Just fiddle with it push it out and that's it And haven't done that for years
David Waumsley: [00:21:35] Yeah In general I'm going to have to do it myself I've decided this and this relates to this topic because I've been trying to think how really I've always wanted to change the business cause I'm not quite sure I've made it as such as a shop so I could come the date any type of person with the same kind of onboarded and my homepage I don't know really who I want to reach but slowly I think I've decided that I I might be better reaching people who feel they want control over their websites So people that might have gone to Squarespace or Wix instead So if I'm doing that perhaps I need to present the whole thing in that way So where I've got things about you know what it's like working with us and bits of tech scene what WordPress is and how I use pipe page builder I just need to do what they do which is you know have a little animated GIF which is showing the page builder cause that's what they're going to get when they work with me This thing and just big titles that are seen This is WordPress you know the the most single most popular platform on the planet that kind of thing
Nathan Wrigley: [00:22:36] Are you saying that your current site is is it a bit too wordy or do you find yourself given free license Do you write too many words down Whereas you want to condense that message into some some more meaningful images in this case animated gifts because actually you're showing the features there aren't you animated gifts and things like that because you just want to reduce the number of words less time to stay on the page Just immediate visual impact
David Waumsley: [00:23:01] Yeah I think so But it's it's just you know as we said we looked at the Squarespace and that kind of just hit right for people who probably want the control over their own website Now I'm not actually going to change my business but I'm thinking that might be what people connect with Cause I think half the time I'm employed because I'll help them do something they couldn't do which is kind of set up WordPress you know set up some of the basics But I think a lot of them and I think I like those clients actually want to To to work on their sites and do more with their sites And that's good for me I think for future business So I need to I think I need to make that emotional connection where I think what they want it's going to sound like her Brexit now isn't it take back control It's going to be kind of effectively my messaging within I think Then the next revision of my side
Nathan Wrigley: [00:23:49] Yeah How do you how in the past I mean obviously for client sites it's it's different isn't it Because you're you're given this job and you're paid to do it and you sit down and figure it all out but how have you gone about working out who your customer is Who are the people that are going to hopefully and upon your website and therefore How have you figured out okay I need to make it look this particular way or have this particular amount of text or advertise this particular feature How have you gone about that process
David Waumsley: [00:24:20] Well I haven't this is what I'm having to do now as you know I mean most of the work I got came through a client They went through a site a colleague of mine and and just through other connections So the work was coming in Now I really have to define as it's kind of pretty much dried up now You know there's some referrals will go on but largely I now have to We define what it is and who I'm going to go for So I I seriously have to think about this and how I'm going to connect with what I think they want
Nathan Wrigley: [00:24:47] And you're going down the route of so from everything that you've just said it sounds like you're going to display on your homepage nice clear animated GIF of using in this case something like Beaver builder To demonstrate Oh point click move drag whatever and also big up WordPress because you see WordPress as a as a really a good thing to be shouting about using
David Waumsley: [00:25:12] Yeah I think it's got big enough now that people I remember when I first started using it you know sort of I don't know what is it 14 years ago maybe hardly anybody knew of it but now I hear a lot of people regularly know in what way Presses They know it is a big platform but I know again I think they probably know of Wix and Squarespace as well
Nathan Wrigley: [00:25:31] Yeah Yeah It's going to be interesting Did you ever step away from this and think to yourself I should definitely get somebody else to look at this instead of me What I'm trying to get to here is the The whole thing of being too close to it yourself Obviously if you work in a big agency somebody will be tasked with a particular aspect of your your websites branding and so on and somebody else might have their fingers in the pie but if it's like you and me we're just freelancers you've you've either got to do it all yourself or get somebody else on board The reason I ask this is because I've got a project on at the minute which is Paul Hall Get to it at some point in the future no doubt but I've going to have a website built for this project and just knowing me and my time available and what have you I've I could easily build it myself but on this occasion I've decided to absolutely step away and hand it over to somebody else so that I don't have to do anything because I've noticed in the past just inertia creeps in I tweak things a little bit too much It all takes too long I get too emotionally connected to it and what have you and I can't afford for that to happen on this occasion so I'm just going to let somebody else have that work and hopefully they'll give it back to me and I'm hoping because I trust this person I'm hoping that they'll just give it back to me and I'll just go yes that's it because it's not me that they'll give it to me and I'll just be Oh thank you That's great Lovely
David Waumsley: [00:26:56] Yeah Do you know what I think that's that's the perfect thing to do You you need somebody to be able to sort of step back and look at you If you ever notice this when you saw the writers and they get we do this I think on our webpages whenever we've had an issue with clients we we I think unconsciously if we try and write we try and rule out those issues coming up again And there's this I've read it a lot of time in other people's texts and I've done it myself and had to delete it There's a slight negativity cause you're trying to prevent bad clients coming in So I do think I think you're doing the perfect thing Just getting somebody else to stand back and look at it But are you going to accept there Are they doing the copywriting for you
Nathan Wrigley: [00:27:36] Well I'm sure there'll be a bit of that a bit of toing and froing so yeah I'm sure there'll be aspects of that I don't really mind the copywriting too much because I quite enjoy writing things But I'm interested to see where this project goes I I I would happily let them do it if they wanted to do it They're going to have complete oversight of everything too You know I'm not gonna hide anything from them I'm going to make it really really clear in fact we've had quite a few meetings already and make it really clear about what the what the thing is what I need it to do And so hopefully those messages will will come out organically But let's wait and see
David Waumsley: [00:28:13] Yeah It's the ideal isn't it You just remove your own ego from the process and your own negativity about the people you work with Us kind of got the game It's stripped away So yeah I would do the same if I was as wealthy as you Nathan
Nathan Wrigley: [00:28:26] Oh goodness Me as wealthy as me that is such a yeah But no I just I I've managed to to S to decide that it took me quite a long time to decide that Cause for the longest time I just kept saying well I can boot strap this and I can do this myself and I can do that myself But it was actually a really relieving process It really felt nice to 'em So I'll just hand it over and say you do it and then I'd have to think I just have to look when it's finished kind of thing
David Waumsley: [00:28:53] Yeah no I think it's a great thing And also you know Chantelle Edward Betsy our friend as well I mean she's she's been great at this She's got people to do professional photos So I mean she's always saying that her The business kind of took off where she put big pictures of everywhere while they've were a site so everybody can see what you're getting And I think that's true but she's been good at that She's paid people to do copywriting and you know professional images I think it is a way forward for us really
Nathan Wrigley: [00:29:22] Do you think do you think that's a significant thing Obviously in the case of Shantelle that's really worked really well she she obviously has been able to put together some really nice imagery of herself and that's really really great Some people I suppose would be really reluctant to put their face on their websites or go through the process of having photographs taken But do you believe that little personal connection is is good in every case I was I don't have any photos of me on my website I mean on the WP bill two website there's lots of little tiny icons of me in thumbnails and things but on a on my business website there's no hint of why it looked like at all I don't think
David Waumsley: [00:30:03] Yeah I know that's really odd Or we were talking about this wasn't it you with your little avatar that you have your little cartoon which everybody comments on but you know it's just such a terrible representation of you
Nathan Wrigley: [00:30:15] I don't really like it I don't know where that came from really I just Put it up one day when I received it from a friend who drew it and just it kind of became something that I use but on my on my business website there's there's no photographs of me I'll probably go and add one now just just to just to make it a bit more real But it just never occurred to me back in the day when I built that that people would want in any way shape or form to know what I looked like But Chantel's proof that it can be enormously powerful
David Waumsley: [00:30:46] Yeah I th I think on the whole it has to be if we're I mean if we view ourselves as a service industry you know it is going to be about personalities So you know anything that helps them to understand you know who you are I mean certainly a photograph is the easiest way isn't it To communicate that I mean you could it could work both ways Goals but you know there's no getting around it They're going to have to see you at some point
Nathan Wrigley: [00:31:10] Well that's a good point It could work both ways couldn't it You know what if there was just something about your demeanor that didn't gel with somebody it might actually turn them off so interesting I suppose you've got to take that on a case by case basis In Chantel's case it was an absolute slam dunk She very very clear about the fact that it was a a real instant success Yeah She looks yeah weigh it up
David Waumsley: [00:31:33] Weigh it up Yeah absolutely I mean she kind of looks professional and and a lot of the time she's getting I think a lot of our customers are coming through kind of networks of business women as well And she kind of you know they're going to relate to what she looks like that And I do see the issue but I think you know like you hide your pictures there but I I guess to know you Nathan it's probably You know you better as soon as your on camera and talking and then you get your full personality So maybe a photo might not be the great thing for you You'd need a video
Nathan Wrigley: [00:32:06] Yeah That's an interesting point And I've said in episodes in the past that I have started using kind of loom videos quite a lot although I don't really do much in the way of cold outreach or anything like that I do respond very often to people contacting me with a video So I suppose on that level I do have that marketing but it isn't on the website as such But yeah I hadn't really thought about it that way but you're right What about what about things like the You know getting down to the sort of nitty gritty things like fonts and or I don't know the choice of fonts and the color palette and all that Do you do you sweat loads about that kind of stuff as well Cause I know that so for example somebody like Peacher all of that kind of stuff is terribly important The amount of spacing the alignment of the text the actual font of the text the you know not using too many different fonts having the right size font all of that Is super significant to her but I don't know if it's something I've ever given as much weight to as she does No
David Waumsley: [00:33:07] I can't even lie on this one cause someone could just go to my site and So but you know when it comes to clients I'm I'm getting much better on those design things I do think what that font the character of that font and where it's going to match him with other things but I can't do it for myself because again To close that which is why I think you're right about you need somebody else to go and look at your branding from an outside perspective who can maybe if they tell you what you are about maybe you can we should be able to with our skills be able to match our fonts to that
Nathan Wrigley: [00:33:39] Hmm I suppose this is all a bit of a fine line isn't it And what I mean by that is I think it's possible to kind of like Overdo this stuff So you're on such a I don't mean you I mean Warren is on such a quest to be whatever it is that you want to be however you want to portray yourself You kind of overdo it a bit and become a bit bland in the process
David Waumsley: [00:34:00] Yeah I mean yeah I don't think you know being who you are is the important thing is now and I think that really brandies should really be that shouldn't it It should be just a way of better presenting who you really are which is going back I guess to what we opened up with which is that what kind of people are you You need to get how you how you can Portray this to people so they know what you're about
Nathan Wrigley: [00:34:25] Mm I've seen I've seen a lot of 'em So as an example of this you know you were talking a moment ago about how you want to potentially put like an animated GIF of using a page builder on your homepage Just as a nice quick Demonstration of what you would get and it'd be very eye catching and so on I've seen a lot of a lot of uses of that kind of thing which I just you know kind of like overbearing and also a use of especially when I signed up to SaaS platforms a lot of use of like cartoon videos and things and they just seem You know that you know meet John John works in an office John has to photocopy all day Wouldn't it be good if John had a system You know what I'm saying And those kinds of things they use no personality whatsoever In fact quite the opposite It's almost like somebody said look it's $200 can you just make us a video showing what the product does And I kind of find that almost worse than having nothing there at all Yeah I agree
David Waumsley: [00:35:23] I think but I think that's just trends I think it's still what they're trying to do aren't they I think they are still trying to get over the the The they're trying to connect with somebody and say what the benefits are There's products I don't think that's probably ever going to change It's just maybe the format now has got a bit boring
Nathan Wrigley: [00:35:40] Yeah that's a good point Well I mean it just I think it's speaking to that particular example if you do those kinds of animated videos the the bar has been raised so high now because I've seen some examples which are just like Hollywood Quality you know clearly big companies with big budgets such that when I see a really cheap version of a video a cartoon video it just looks cheap It's a bit like watching I don't know some cartoon from the 1980s and comparing it to a modern CGI film There's just no comparison And one just looks Oh no like watching old doctor who episodes Oh no The wall wobbles and just sort of see through it a little bit And I think that kind of stuff can spoil it Spoil the branding of create a sense of distrust These guys you know th they haven't put together this video and it all seems like the wording was all wrong and it all felt a bit rushed I've just cobbled something together and thrown it out and for video read anything You know if you get the wording if you're too enthusiastic if you're trying to appeal to a particular client and you really like just hammer home the point at some point those kinds of things start to Oh it's a bit too much effort here It all seems a bit cobbled together I don't know
David Waumsley: [00:36:59] Yeah no I understand this And I you know when I look around at sites particularly local trade sites you you know sometimes they look really terrible when they are beautifully designed because you kind of know no they didn't have the budget for this kind of design surely not for their business So you realize suddenly there's something fake about it Then you think Oh well this is either templates or they're not It's not really helping you to understand where they are They sit in it And I think that's the problem with those videos as well There's no real people behind those products You see there's a lot of videos It's supposed to tell us that this is you know big serious company who can afford to have videos done But you you sense hiding behind that is just some local guys have just started up
Nathan Wrigley: [00:37:43] Yes Yeah very much so And actually now that we think about it because we spend our entire lives sitting in front of computers looking at websites it is It is pretty obvious straight away when you go to a website and they've really haven't sweated the detail you know like I don't know there's like a faulty piece of padding That pattern is really weird That piece of text is clearly meant to be in the center but it's not Quiet in the center and those kinds of things speak speak volumes don't they So I wonder I wonder if the general population at large also have this you know probably there's a whole load of really wonky websites out there that have converted really well And equally there's probably a whole load of really really amazingly thought through websites that haven't converted well enough I guess it's a balance isn't it It's a balance of images It's a balance of typographic It's a balance of the actual copy and the videos and the the you know the the H one tags in the right place and so on and so forth It's just balancing it and hoping that you get the right the right balance
David Waumsley: [00:38:49] Yep Absolutely Well you know we've talked for a long time and as always we've given absolutely no value at all
Nathan Wrigley: [00:38:55] Yeah Well that is our motto David You know if you go to the VP built Facebook group it does say Giving them almost no value since 2016 I think that's that's okay Nobody's like I think these episodes are lovely cause you chat through these things and you've tried to kind of you know try to come to some sort of decision about what works There is like a little you've got a little was a little checklist in the in the show notes that you wrote which I thought was quite interesting starting off with Visual identity checklist You've got five points here You've got visual identity checklist tone of voice checklist Can you template it Photography checklist and show more per sorry show some personality And the only one of those that I really take seriously is the personality one I don't even know what an identity checklist is or tone of voice checklist I just don't even know what these things are Yeah
David Waumsley: [00:39:47] Well but they are and they're going through your I don't know I'd this is going back years ago but I remember somebody to talk about a copy and they were looking at Ben and Jerry's site and and just how great their copy was but interesting how it failed in some other pages like their terms and conditions how the there was really no reason why they had to go legally Suddenly they could do the same effect Yeah But still in Ben and Jerry's clearly defined voice And I think yeah it is about that isn't it I do check I mean I'm terrible No right stuff There's so many errors in it anyway but I do try and check myself when I so if I were writing something I tend to say there rather than the there are or something And I try and keep that consistency of that So I think that's in that kind of thing isn't it Makes sure that it's it's the same tone of voice You can you can hear that person talking in your head as you read through everything
Nathan Wrigley: [00:40:39] I know a friend of ours who puts together WordPress related courses He he long ago decided that all of his copy was going to be done by somebody else because he he really really understood that a professional Doing this and especially when you're trying to sell courses the messaging is you know you've got a finite amount of time and you're trying to onboard lots of clients all at the same moment So there's really no there's no room for error and there's no scope for iterating It's just you've got this one window in time He he employs the services as a copywriter and he said it's been really transformational He can you can literally see how significantly better What this person produces is than anything that he could do that they just got a skill for it And I although I can write to the half decent sentence I don't have the skill to write persuasive sentences marketing sentences you know things that are going to flip people into buying things when they're sitting on the fence I just don't seem to have that in inverted commas Killer instinct I I'm much more kind of prosaic than I am marketing
David Waumsley: [00:41:47] I know it's going to be different Surely I mean if you're larger you're selling you as a service then it's fine You're going to do it best If you can keep that consistency in your voice There is another side to that you know would the tone of voice check list you know copywriters will look into the language that they think their ideal customer will use to connect with them So you know they they may just kind of use slang terminology instead because they think that's going to connect or make that emotional connection with the people that they want to attract So there is that side of it as well
Nathan Wrigley: [00:42:22] I suppose if you are super niched down you could really get into all that kind of slang territory But in the case of our businesses I guess slang is not really suitable and you've just got to be as broad as possible It is really difficult No not Sorry
David Waumsley: [00:42:39] I was going to say knock it on the head is something that you say often and yeah that's true
Nathan Wrigley: [00:42:43] Yeah yeah yeah but the you know the fact that we're doing our business is open to the entire world essentially Well I suppose that's not true Some agencies will strictly work with I don't know fitness brands or something like that but in my case I'm I'm open to working with anybody My size is probably a real you know the fact that I'm only It's only me essentially will weed out lots of people but I'm open to anybody calling me up and having a discussion But yeah that that means that my offering has to be very generic and it it works for me on the level that I can talk to these people and hopefully convert them But yeah you're gonna you're gonna find that a really interesting challenge I think in the days and weeks to come How do you how do you pitch a build it yourself with me Website business to the entire world
David Waumsley: [00:43:35] Yes exactly I'll still be a though effectively I'll be aiming for people Brits I guess on the whole but so should we just go through the other checklists Quite interesting Cause you said the only one you didn't do the can you template it That's the thing you know I still haven't done that yet So when you're putting your they say Brandon in docs and emails that's Brian these thing But also when you're sending out to any social media I still not used I bought a is it relay this Is that the
Nathan Wrigley: [00:44:02] relay that it's called It's a relay that that that's actually really good I've used that but I haven't I suppose it's a question of just sitting down one day and making sure that all of the things have the branding in and and I don't do that And usually it's when I get to Oh I'm sending an email Okay The branding's not in the in the right Fix that Or okay I'm writing something in an auto respond to a there's no branding Okay Fix that I don't I don't go around making sure it's correct and until I figure out there's a problem
David Waumsley: [00:44:31] Yeah Yeah I mean that's a good tool I should be using really when you send to social media just to make sure that brand has got this consistency
Nathan Wrigley: [00:44:39] I mean it locks down things like your font and it locks down Things like your you know your icons and what have you and it creates posts for just any shape or size Essentially You type into fields on the right hand side of the screen and then it It makes the images and so on there's a whole load of other things which should do a similar service but they they're very good at kind of social excuse me social media posts and things like that They're very good for mm
David Waumsley: [00:45:02] mm
Nathan Wrigley: [00:45:03] mm
David Waumsley: [00:45:05] So Do you think we've actually come to the end of this topic
Nathan Wrigley: [00:45:08] I think we have a like you said earlier we we never quite get to an answer We're not trying to espouse a solution We're just trying to talk through these things Yeah It's interesting The so this was number this was number three on Briony Thomas' list of leaks It kind of feels like we should really have her on so that we can on the podcast so that she can absolutely terrorist to shreds because we misunderstood everything that she said But so the next one is just entitled and no gateway Do you have any insight into what we might be talking about next time What's no yeah
David Waumsley: [00:45:42] Where's she'll be talking to Was she saying that there's no way to kind of try out what it's like to work with you or your product So it's whether you have any kind of gateway something that would give somebody a taste of what it's going to be like if they work with you I think that's going to be quite interesting to look into that
Nathan Wrigley: [00:45:59] Yeah that'll be next time Then it probably in a couple of weeks from the day that you hear this Okay Shall we in that case knock on the head. Yeah So your next time Well I hope that you enjoyed that this book watertight marketing is proving to be a bit of a revelation for me rather enjoying all the interesting insights that that it's bringing to bear I hope that you enjoyed it in a couple of weeks We'll do another one We'll have an interview next week but then we'll do another one of these leaks so yeah stay tuned for that I would recommend that you go to WP Builds.com forward slash black in the run up to black Friday As I said at the beginning this is the page where I'm curating that searchable filterable list of all the black Friday deals that are related to WordPress so that URL once again WP Builds.com forward slash Black the WP Builds podcast is brought to you today by page builder cloud If you want to dramatically speed up your WordPress website workflow then check out page builder cloud It securely saves all your templates to your own cloud You can then reuse them on any other website in seconds Page builder cloud works with elemental BeaverBuilder breezy Guttenberg and many more but it's not just for page builders You can save your contact forms and ACF layouts too You can get a free trial today at page builder cloud.com and WP and up one in four of us will be directly affected by mental health related illness WP and op supports and promotes positive mental health within the WordPress community This is achieved through mentorship events training and counseling Please help enable WP and up by visiting WP and aap.org forward slash give Okay Hopefully we'll see you back here next Thursday That will be a regular podcast episode If not we do a Monday live news that's at 2:00 PM UK time but also we do our sort of half an hour or audio summation of the WordPress new so you can catch those as well If you go to WP Builds.com forward slash subscribe and fill out those forms you'll be notified when they happen As always cheesy music towards the end I do like a bit of cheesy music right at the beginning of the podcast There's some dreadfully cheesy introduction music and at the end we round it off with some equally bad cheesy music and here it comes pretty jazzy this week Bye bye for now.