In this episode:
Interview – Personality types – finding the right client for you
I don’t really know anything about psychology. I know that people are different, but that’s about where it ends!
Well, that’s not entirely true, I do know that I get along better with some people than I do with others. As much as I’d like it to be true that I get along with all of the people, all of the time, it’s just not. Some people just gel with me. I find some people engaging and interesting; I want to hear what they have to say, I welcome being with them. For other people though, the opposite is true, I’m not inclined to enjoy their company as much and I may even not wish to be with them at all.
Building WordPress websites for clients means that you’re literally thrust into the path of people who you have never met before. Not only that, these people can have some sort of leverage over you. They are, after all, paying your wages and you have to (to some extent) do what they ask of you.
You might need to interact with them even if their way of doing things is at complete odds to yours. Maybe they don’t speak in a way that you find intelligible, perhaps they are over enthusiastic in a way that you find hard to cope with. I could go on writing these descriptions all day, but you get the point. Your WordPress website business needs you to be able to interact with anyone that you encounter, even if you don’t really like them all that much!
So, queue today’s podcast episode in which we explore the idea of different personality types and how you can identify them and learn to love them.
Let’s be clear, we’re not saying that you should figure out what personality type you are, and then figure out which other personality types you work well with and somehow go on a mission to discover where these people hang out and only work with them. For a start I have no idea how you would even accurately work out the personality type of other people, and secondly, the chances of you filling up your roster with these people seems a little slim to say the least!
What we are saying is that it might be a good thing to have a little understanding of what makes other people tick; an insight into the situations and triggers that people have. In this way you might equip yourself to be a better WordPress website business because you’ll be able to understand client’s pain better, and the sort of ways that you can behave in order to keep things moving forwards.
I guess that you could sum this up in one word – empathy. If you have that and can reflect back to the client what makes them feel listened to, reassured, then things are going to go better than if you just inhabit your personality type and reject all other people requirements and approached to working. I think that this much is common sense!
By what are the personality types? You may be able to intuit some of them, but lots of work has been done in this area and broadly we have:
- ISTJ – The Inspector
- ISTP – The Crafter
- ISFJ – The Protector
- ISFP – The Artist
- INFJ – The Advocate
- INFP – The Mediator
- INTJ – The Architect
- INTP – The Thinker
- ESTP – The Persuader
- ESTJ – The Director
- ESFP – The Performer
- ESFJ – The Caregiver
- ENFP – The Champion
- ENFJ – The Giver
- ENTP – The Debater
I know, the language is a little difficult to understand, but if you take the short test over at 16 Personalities, you’re going to get more insight into it all. You will understand more about yourself and therefore the other personality types too.
We move the conversation on to discuss how this might apply to your WordPress building business. What ways can this be implemented to make your life less stressful? This podcast is one where we’d really appreciate your feedback and how you might use the information that we discuss today.
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript (if available)
Nathan Wrigley: 00:04 Welcome to the WP Builds podcast, bringing you the latest news from the WordPress community. Now welcome your host, David Waumsley, Nathan Wrigley.
Nathan Wrigley: 00:21 Hello there and welcome to the WP Builds podcast. Once again, this is episode 130 and titled Personality Types, finding the right client for you and so discussions. So we'll be speaking later with David Waumsley from David Waumsley.com it was published on Thursday the 30th of May, 2019 my name's Nathan Wrigley from picture and work.co. Dot UK and a couple of things just before we begin, if you wouldn't mind going over to the WP Builds.com website and looking at the menu items across the top. The first one is the subscribe link and if you click on that you'll be taken to our subscribe page. And really it's just a page where we're hoping that you'll want to get involved in the WP Builds community. You can sign up for a couple of newsletters which have different purposes. You can join our Facebook group, you can find out about signing up on iTunes or Google podcasts and our youtube channel and so on and so forth.
Nathan Wrigley: 01:18 So basically it's just the page. If you'd like to hear more from us and you think that our content has in some way enriched your life, then please go to that page and fill out one of the forms or click some of the buttons. The next one to mention is WP Builds.com forward slash deals. That's a page where we post slow to deals. We've been reached out to by lots of plugin developers and theme developers and they've given us a whole load of discounts, which we're passing on to you. So it might be 15% off lifter LMS or 20% of project title or well, there's about 15 or 20 up there at the moment. So go and check them out if you're in the market for some WordPress plugins at the moment. Another one to mention, WP Builds.com forward slash contribute if you've done something recently and you think to yourself, I'm proud of that.
Nathan Wrigley: 02:05 I was pleased with the way that turned out. Then please get in touch and I'll share my screen with you and we'll shoot the little podcast and uh, and in that way we might be able to share your, your amazing inspiration with a slightly wider audience and also WP Builds.com forward slash advertise if you would like to advertise on the WP Builds.com podcast or a newsletter so that we can get your product out in front of a wider audience. And speaking of which the WP Builds podcast is brought to you today by the page builder framework. Do you use a page builder to create your websites or the page builder framework as a mobile responsive and lightening fast WordPress theme that works with beaver builder, elemental, breezy, and other page builders with its endless customization options in the WordPress customizer. It's the perfect fit for you or your agency.
Nathan Wrigley: 02:58 Go to WP dash page builder framework.com today and we do thank our sponsors because they do help us support and create the WP belts podcast. Just one more thing to mention. On a Monday, we're now doing a live news bulletin, so the the podcast episode that we put out on a Monday, which is a summation of the previous week's WordPress news, we're now doing a live episode of that on a Monday. So if you're in our Facebook group or on our youtube channel than a 2:00 PM UK time, that will be rolled out live and we'll obviously put links to it, uh, in our, in our social media platforms. Okay. Today we're discussing the subject of personality types and finding the right client for you. This is really David's area of expertise. He has a background in psychology and I've got literally no knowledge of this whatsoever, but it was absolutely fascinating filling out a survey, finding out what type of personality I am, and then whether or not this has any impact on the way that I behave or deal with clients, you know, should I behave in a certain way? Having kind of made a decision about what their personality type is. Can we apply this knowledge to the way that we use WordPress and work with our business? And the answer is I think yes we can, but you'll have to listen to the podcast episode to find out. I hope you enjoy it.
David Waumsley: 04:22 Hello. Today's discussion. We're calling personalities, finding the right kind of client. So we talked before and we Nathan about niches and we decided that we didn't have one. Yes, yes, that's true. That's true. We, well we kinda did it. It was just that it was kind of Nice to local people who had enough money for website was about as far as we got with it. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I know that some people are very keen to, to get into niching and finding the exact target audience. I know. Well I think that was, you know, it's still a big discussion area cause I think most wise people say it's probably a good idea to do it. But I wanted to go back to the subject because I've rethought about it because now, um, previously when I was talking about it, all the work kind of came to me and it was somebody else's business that was local.
David Waumsley: 05:17 So my task was really to just find a way to accommodate these people who are, you know, various different types of people, different types of businesses. So I never thought I needed a niche. What I needed to do was to accommodate people, but now I'm going to have to go after clients. So this is why I'm talking about as always I'm using this as therapy. Well, what's interesting about this though is that you've got a really different angle on this, I think than I've ever seen before. Now, no doubt. Somewhere on the Internet, somebody will have covered this exact topic, but it was fresh to me. David often writes fairly fairly lengthy notes for these discussion episode so that he's, you know, he's aware of what he wants to talk about. And then when I looked at these notes that a lot of it isn't common sense to me because I don't understand.
David Waumsley: 06:05 Whereas you've got, you've got a background in psychology, which is a lot of what we're talking about. Yeah, well that's kind of just thrown in at the end there because there are a lot of personality tests and it just made me think because this is the way my thought process was, but go in that if I'm going to try and get the right kind of client for me, I really need one that's going to match my personality, my approach, my values, and that might be kind of my way of niching. So maybe just recapping on where we went with niches. We saw some problems, didn't we in the sense that we thought it, if you really try to find a niche and didn't have one automatically you could easily miss judge. They kind of work or the budgets in that niche and end up with a problem and there was one that we really put me off.
David Waumsley: 06:54 It was the idea that, you know, if you, if you say you decided you were going to be the people who made websites for hairdressers, you might just find that competitors might not want to go to the same website suppliers, you know? Yeah. So you know that you might not want to go to the same person who did, you know, your competitors hairdressing insight or whatever. And also there was, um, I think my issue with it was the idea of boredom, this idea that you'd be doing the same sort of stuff, we'll be stuck with the same kind of work. Yeah. I mean, I think they're all completely valid concerns, especially the one about clients potentially, you know, looking at your portfolio of a dozen hairdressing websites or what have you been thinking? Oh, oh, okay. Um, I'll they going to find anything unique about me.
David Waumsley: 07:48 I mean, the opposite of course is true. They might think this is perfect, but I can see that you might want to go somewhere for a fresh pair of eyes, shall we say. Yeah. So really I just want to talk about this kind of idea that we might just kind of folk, cause I think we all do need to to a certain degree if, so the focus on who we're working with when we do this business. So maybe the way to do it would be to look at our personality types and, and find out what it is that we like about working with other people and because our personalities are more consistent perhaps than the niche might be. So you could get bored of a niche but you're not likely to get bored of your own characteristics that are likely to remain the same. So that was my thinking. Yeah. And um, the other thing about the niches that put me off as well, that if you picked a niche and then you thought that was fine but you didn't have too much experience in it, you could just find that as I found before in certain industries there were type of person and you might just find you don't like that kind of person, you know? So yeah, that's a very good point. You know, you, you
Nathan Wrigley: 08:56 might be running up against an industry where, um, I don't know, it's completely typical to, um, to, to charge twice what it's worth or something like that. That's a silly example, but you might end up having a personality conflicts or we say, yeah, buy you just, your core values are very different from the core values, which are typically held by people in that niche.
David Waumsley: 09:20 Yeah, good point. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I've seen online often that certain industries, like we did some websites for furniture companies, but I look to all the other furniture company websites as well that our competitors and you, and you can kind of see that they, they all go to Twitter and they all, they will not that interested in SEO. So if you're a big fan of that, you probably wouldn't want to go for furniture companies. Even though I've done a few of those websites, you know,
Nathan Wrigley: 09:50 at a terrible stereotype. But one which illustrates the point would be in the UK at least anyway, we talk about second hand car salesman and I'm not casting any aspersions, but the, if you say that phrase, oh he's like a second time car salesman. You are basically implying by that that this, this person probably isn't wearing their morals too, um, too often and they're prepared to kind of like just rip people off and make a fast buck despite the fact that they know that this car is glued together and we'll fall apart when it's five meters off the forecourt, but Oh, it's not my problem. Governor, you bought it, caveat emptor and all that.
David Waumsley: 10:31 Yeah, absolutely. Do you know, I mean we did some sites for that. There's still a lot that I manage, which are effectively for games for seaside games, rarely people who sell those kind of arcade games and all that kind of industry we work for. Because the first job I did was for manufacturers and they are of a similar type of person. You know, there, it's fine if you're that kind of person, but the way that they talk to each other is, is very, it's a kind of guteral language. They will F and blind directly. You know, you've got a bit of, you've got a bit the right kind of personality. If you were doing that as your kind of niche, you know, it's fast anyway.
Nathan Wrigley: 11:11 No, no, but it's an interesting foray just for a moment then probably not something I'd ever even thought of that. Um, the, the personality of the person who I'm building a website for might be be a cause for me to decline or potentially be a cause for, you know, going out and seeking more of these kind of people. Cause you just get on well because your values are aligned and you seem to speak the same language.
David Waumsley: 11:39 Yeah. And I just thought some things I've realized for myself. So anyway, I started putting down some, some notes and they were that we probably already know, um, what we are like, you know, as people and could probably narrow down our choices a bit. So, so the first thing that I put down here was that if you love processes, orders and say order and record keeping, then you're probably the type of person who might just be right going after kind of government bodies, charities, universities, big, large bureaucratic organizations who value that kind of thing. Well
Nathan Wrigley: 12:21 yeah, not just evaluate, probably insist upon it. Everything's got to get demented and categorized. Um, so yeah, good points if you love or you hate the chaos and you like putting things into categories and boxing things off. Yeah. Fascinating. Government charities and universities. Interesting. You put charities in there. I don't have a great deal of experience with charities. How did they get lumped in there? Is that same sort of regulation? Regulatory
David Waumsley: 12:47 trolls? Yeah. Well I think I'm in the old charities are different, but I'm thinking more of the larger charities. But yeah, of course they, I mean I, I've done a few sites for them, but they do, they come with certain regulations. They're worried about certain things. Even if they don't necessarily adhere to them, they will probably be concerned about accessibility more than most businesses. I see. Yep. Yep, Yep. That kind of stuff. And there'll be lots of other things that go with it. You know, that was the interesting thing that I kind of learned in the last couple of jobs that were offered by friends but they thought might be suited to me were from smaller charities. And I just thought, do you know what that really helped me zone in on the fact that no, I don't actually, I don't want to work with these people cause I'm terrible when it comes to processes, orders of recordkeeping. Well I actually love is to just dive in and start something, you know?
Nathan Wrigley: 13:42 Yeah, I do. I completely get it. So the idea that you've got to map everything out and uh, have very fixed from idea of exactly what's going to happen before you even start. That's, that's not your process. You, you prefer the kind of make it up as you go along approach. So, um, so move on, don't say, yeah, secular clients because that, that's the psychology of that kind of website requires, requires you to behave in a way which is not natural to you necessarily.
David Waumsley: 14:11 Yeah, I send it, I'm just saying, I mean also if you'd kind of, if you're a person who likes routines and you want to kind of fit your work into certain patterns, there may be, you know, finding a niche or, or developing a type of website, which is pretty similar each time you do it would surely allow you to be able to sort of map out how long it's going to take you to do that kind of work. So you might just be better if you're that kind of person too, to actually go for a niche where it's the same kind of website every time. Even if that might, to me sound really boring.
Nathan Wrigley: 14:47 Okay. Yeah. So yeah. What's, what's the difference between, you mentioned earlier about, you
David Waumsley: 14:52 know, government bodies, charities, universities might be well suited, somebody that loves processes. What's the difference between a process and a routine? Oh, sorry, I meant just for your personal routine. So you like to say work from nine to five or something. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean I think, you know, you might be able to just map out how long a project's going to go. I mean, there's no reason why you can't do it. I'm just really, all our challenge is to come up with sort of areas where you might go for, cause you know your personality type. So you know, most of the advice out there is about growing your agency and, and you and I are not like that are we? We're not into that. No. So button up. Not really. No. So yeah, and it makes sense with our personality types. It's certainly does with me.
David Waumsley: 15:35 I realized I just don't like the processes that might command the bigger jobs. You know, if you wanted sort of 25 grand per job upwards, you're going to need to go for big, large organizations and they're likely to be bureaucratic. So when I think about it, my personality just doesn't suit going for those kinds of bigger agency jobs. Yes, yes. And also I suppose if, well I think this is probably true to say if your personality doesn't suit it, you're probably not going to enjoy the experience of doing it. And if you're not really enjoying the experience of doing it, you're more likely to do it badly. Yeah, yeah. Right. I mean, do you know what I mean? I, I've, I've learned, and this is why I made the mistake, I think because I set up my business to accommodate everybody and I thought care plans was the way forward, which I still do.
David Waumsley: 16:26 And I thought because we were getting trades people easily and they don't worry too much about the websites, they were kind of constantly going to give me that reoccurring income. But what I've realized, what I really enjoy is that the challenge doing something different. jumping in I've gone for, so this is, I suppose I should avoid niches and I should go for startups because that's the bit that really gets me excited is the idea of the two is something a little bit different from, okay, so you like it when you've got a blank canvas and the client is doing something new and you get, you get the ability to be a little bit more artistic. Should we say you've got to really make it up for the first time because you've never come across this website and that novelty that parents in that kind of a client appeals to you and you enjoy doing those more.
David Waumsley: 17:19 Yeah, I mean I've really learned. And the next thing I was saying, I love the psychology in things. So I'm the digital marketing side of stuff is, it's something I never really get into our, I would love to do more on that side, but generally I'm to building somebody aside because that's all they want. They're not interested in digital marketing. So I've realized that too. Thinking about what I liked the psychology and the new challenges. I only really need to move towards that. And so in a way I've restricted myself. If I want my kind of work to those people who are in fact the way I'm going to work with people, cause I don't like to work in bureaucracies or large groups. I'm really, I should be going for the startup solo entrepreneurs I think. Yeah. So, but I was just thinking of again, if you, you must be a certain type of person who likes working either with groups of people alone. So if you, if you really love the project management side of things and teamwork and then maybe again it's, it's larger companies or for you. Okay. So, um, you don't mean by that work for a larger company. You mean go and find projects from larger companies? Yeah. I mean you and I are the same, aren't we? We had this sort of policy on the whole that was a, we just work with one person. Yep.
Nathan Wrigley: 18:44 Yeah. What do you do that? Um, so the organization could be any size, but I only worked with the one person. I think, I think it just comes down to the clarity of the whole thing. Just keeping it simple. They, that one person gets to have all the arguments within the company and then I end up hearing the outcome of all the arguments. You know, they might, I mean it can get trivial concept but you know, there might be a discussion about um, a particular colour choice or a particular font choice or the use of images. And I don't really want to be involved in that discussion. I just want to hear, here's the images. This is the fonts, these are the things we're going to have in the menu. It's been decided and I'm, I'm the custodian of that knowledge so I'm now passing it onto you. Can you implement it? That's how I see it. Really.
David Waumsley: 19:33 Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I know, I think it's how personalities again though, cause if you think about it, the stuff I learned about organizing a web project was, was very much about the project management that and get your name with teams, getting all the stakeholders together and going through those processes of, of, you know, mood board in or setting up the architecture through group work with people. And both you and I skipped that. But I think, you know, if you love all of that kind of teamwork project, yeah, I shouldn't, stuff you'd probably want to lead your organization that way because you love it. And then you'd probably want to find the kind of companies who would welcome that.
Nathan Wrigley: 20:10 Yeah. And also I think if you were dealing with an organization, um, and this was your strengths, if you loved working with teams and you know, you literally enjoyed the process of being in those discussions. I don't, so I just want to hear the end result. But if you, you know, if you want to get involved and discuss and put your opinion forward about why this font is better than that phone, or why should we should go for this colour Palette or whatever, you know, any aspects and the funnel should look like this, then yeah, then this would be perfect. You know, you could, you could, you could probably end up giving your expert's I'm much more easily and get, get what you know will be a better result. Whereas I'm kind of just, you know, I give my opinion to the, the one person, they take that opinion and I'm hoping that they're able to argue that case for me.
Nathan Wrigley: 21:04 So yes, I can see that this, this particularly has benefits. Um, but it's just not something I've ever really got involved in because I've been stung a few times with, um, you know, committees grinding to a halt because everybody can't agree. Yeah. Do you know why? And that's exactly, I mean, I, I worked for so long for a large government organizations, so there's nothing more I hate than the idea of that time and money is wasted on meetings. But you know what, the people who love those jobs, that's what they live for really here. Yeah. Oh, not that makes a good meeting. No, but it brings everybody, you know, as far as I'm concerned, this is the only way to move an organization forward. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. They love it and I hate it. So that is really interesting though. Just drawing that out. The fact that my personality has precluded me from, from, from doing that kind of work, from pushing myself into the organization and I'm getting my opinion through, uh, it is, it will lead to a different outcome.
Nathan Wrigley: 22:08 The outcome from the website that I will build will be different to the outcome from somebody who really wants to get in those meetings and tell their expert opinions of the clients so that, so that they, they know that they've had there, they've had their moment trying to persuade them. You'd be chalk and cheese. I bet they'd look really different. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I've, you know, for those people that I thought I liked to isolation from my work, but it's probably not true. I like working one to one, but I mean if you did then probably, I don't know, I'm just guessing making this stuff up. But you might be attracted then to doing white label work. So somebody else was bringing in the client stuff and you actually just doing it or you did PSD two web kind of work out. You just translated stuff.
Nathan Wrigley: 22:55 So, yeah. And so what the idea that you, you kind of like being insulated, um, from the client, you don't like to necessarily interact with the client, which in a sense is what I'm doing by, by just having this one point of contact. I'm kind of insulating myself against most of the stuff flying around. But if you do, if you do white label work, again, you're not the holdings of the clients. You're beholden to the, the, the customer of the clients, which is, yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. And I think the PSD two webwork sounded wants to me, it sounded like it was ideal because literally you can just, you know what you've got to replicate. You've seen it, there's no discussion. You just get on and stop doing it. But I realize that probably there's no, that sounds fantastic for a while, but for me there's no long term joy in that. So it may be all the
David Waumsley: 23:46 same. I don't know. Do, do you get a bit of a buzz doing the one to one with a project so you can sort of bounce ideas off this one person or,
Nathan Wrigley: 23:53 um, I, I, hey, it really does depend on the personality, you know, and again, it comes down to that psychology. If, if I can think of lots of my clients who I really, I have no trepidation picking up the phone and, and just just beginning talking. It's completely fine. It's almost like we're buddies, but then the opposite is true. You know, sometimes that wants to, one you've ended up, for some reason the person in charge of it is, is just a different person to, you know, they behave differently, talk differently. Probably have, we have different, an entirely different kind of life to me, if you know what I mean. And that can be, that can be difficult because I've got nobody else to circumvent. I've got nobody else to go to. Whereas if I was dealing with a team in a, in a boardroom meeting or in a meeting, you could kind of, well for once of a better word, you could blank the person who you don't really get on with and move onto somebody else and tried to have the conversation through them instead.
David Waumsley: 24:48 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the other thing is, I think there are different models as well. We've talked about this before. If you love autonomy, I think also you probably, you might be restricted in which types of industries or companies you work for. Then it would depend on your standing. I mean, there are some agencies out there who say, you know, you stay out, we designed what it is. That's what we do. But on the whole, if you want autonomy, you know the sense that your ideas are going to go forward, you probably gonna have to kind of pick people that are going to be open to that.
Nathan Wrigley: 25:21 Mm. Yeah. Good point. Good point. Yeah. Do like a bit of autonomy. I do like to kind of keep things to myself a little bit and you know, just work on my own, work on my own processes and things. Do you get, if you've got a great idea, do you get a bit upset if it's not taken on board? It's like, Oh yeah, I, I'm pretty good now at masking that. So I don't think I give it away with what I say or the tone of my voice, but I do feel a bit deflated sometimes. Yeah. And you know, especially with the advent of page builders, I also, I find it a bit demoralizing when I've handed over a site and I go back a week later on, I discover that lots of it's changed. I sort of think, oh, I tried really hard with that much nicer before, but I've, I've kind of had to get over that because let's be honest, if I've given them access to the page builder, I have in effect said, do what you like and it's their website and so you know, that's fine. It is perfectly fine. It just sometimes feels like a small kick in the teeth. Yeah. I think for me it's when I've had, there's been a few clients does that
David Waumsley: 26:32 come along and you just thought, Oh, do you know what? There's a real opportunity for them to promote themselves online is not necessarily anything to do with the website, but it's just about how they, they might just do more of the digital marketing you try and get put this argument for and it just completely falls flat on them. You just think, wow, what a waste. I'm so sure that would do, they would get so much more business. So I mean I realized that if I love to do that stuff, so I'd like to build it. I guess it's not autonomy as such. It's more the fact that somebody will listen to two ideas. And I think in order to do that, the startups seem like risky people to go for because they're probably not going to help me. Um, try and earn curving income from care plans because a lot of them are just going to pack it in and fail, aren't they? But I still think they might be right for me because they'll probably be the people who will be open to unlike a established business to new ideas that might help them get a headstart. Mm. Yeah, yeah. Good point. Good point. Yeah. I don't know, this isn't all about me now, isn't it? But
Nathan Wrigley: 27:37 you're the one that brought all these ideas off and honestly a lot of this stuff wouldn't have even occurred to me when I was reading your show notes. I was thinking, boy, David really has got a level of thought about this. I'm far more of a blunt instrument, so I'm glad that you've, you've brought up, especially the psychological stuff, which no doubt we'll get onto,
David Waumsley: 27:56 well, yeah, well if we could just talk about that now, couldn't we? We've just been doing, I've done this test before now I did psychology, but to be honest, you know, it's more an academic thing and I don't put too much store by personality testing's, but it still is quite interesting and a lot of companies still employed there. So we were both looking at a website, which I'm sure they fill out the link, which is 16 personalities.com where you can do a test. And this test is in the established psycho psychology tests, uh, from Myers and Briggs. And then it talks about which of the 16 personality types you are. So we were both doing this won't work. And we came up with our personalities
Nathan Wrigley: 28:39 tell. Yeah. I came out after filling out the test, which takes about a, a, I don't know, 10 minutes or something like that. I came out, it was mediocre. Oh no, sorry,
David Waumsley: 28:48 mediator. Um, I came out as advocat. What was your
Nathan Wrigley: 28:59 advocate, now I don't really understand what these are, but I guess regardless of what you understand from, from, you know, the label that you're given at the end of my personality type apparently is I n f p Dash a forward slash I n f p slash, t, whatever that means. Anyway, it can be summarized in a word mediate or, um, I guess the point your making potentially here is, you know, if in some way you can find other people who were mediators, you're likely to succeed better with them. Is, is that how it even works or is it that you get on better with people who are not like you or, or what?
David Waumsley: 29:39 Yeah, well sort of. I mean I think that would be ideal that you, you kind of match somebody very similar. But I, but I just think by maybe just doing a test like this might just give you some idea about where you were, your principals are aware where everything sits well work to is kind of your gut feeling isn't it helps you. And then maybe the strengths and weaknesses of these different personality types might help you to decide what type of industries? Yeah, might go. That's a very good point because on a different website you can, which is called very well, mind.com youth and
Nathan Wrigley: 30:18 find the the type that you are and it gives this little bullet pointed list of of your personality strengths and your personality weaknesses. Now I don't, I, I don't agree with everything that it says, but a lots of it. It was quite interesting. It was like, Oh yes, that's, that really is me. I am a, I do display those characteristics and just just for somebody else to tell me what I'm like is, is fascinating because it suddenly felt like, oh, okay. Yeah. It's intriguing. I hadn't really thought about myself in that way. Maybe maybe I would be good at that thing as opposed to that thing. Maybe I am instinctively drawn to that thing and therefore would succeed at it more. It's fascinating.
David Waumsley: 30:59 Well, yeah, I think it was pretty, as soon as you said you'll have a mediator, it's like, yeah, that's right. No, you'd be, you are, you know, you, you, you, you can see the balance in kind of arguments. You're not, you know, I don't know. You're not bullish in any way. Yes. That I don't fall under the category of bigot. Um, which is one of the, no, it isn't. That isn't on, I think that you can, you can end up with what is it it says about yours. So your strengths and your strengths are that you're loyal and devoted, sensitive to feelings, caring and interested in others. Works well alone, but it's close. Relationships are good at seeing the big picture.
Nathan Wrigley: 31:39 See the ones that hop out there for me it, so let's make the assumption firstly that I answered the questions accurately and that this is a true representation of what, what I like my strengths, if you like. It's telling me I like to work well. I work well alone. That's one what just immediately hops out to me and that I'm good at seeing the big picture. That also helps out to me as [inaudible] they potentially have a use in, in business. You know, I, I can, I can work well alone. Yes, that's good. I can go off and do things all by myself completely autonomously and I can see the big picture. I'm not so sure if that's true sometimes, but nevertheless, that's a good thing to know about me. Maybe I can do that and I have that capability. So you know, don't always assume that people are seeing the big picture when I'm not. Um, should we talk about your strengths? I'll, I'll read these out. So well first of all, what personality type did you come out to us again? Yeah, I was a advocate.
David Waumsley: 32:40 The advocate, right? So your strengths are, you are sensitive to the needs of others. You are reserved, highly creative and artistic. Boom. That's a good one. Focused on the future. You value close, deep relationships. You enjoy thinking about the meaning of life and you are idealistic. Don't do any of those hop hours like useful in your work. Yeah. Well last two a kind of almost like negative. So the string, he says drinks cause it's a lot, well the navel gazing, but I think, you know, it's a similar to yours in the sense that focus on the future. So I mean I guess this is what was coming to the conclusion of, I liked looking towards where you could go with these businesses. So when these people would come for websites, yeah, yeah. Like we can build your website, but what's really interested in what you could do with this online? And that's where I get frustrated. Um, because you definitely don't have that. Um,
Nathan Wrigley: 33:38 and I, I wouldn't be thinking in quite those terms. Do you know what I mean by that? Is that that side of things wouldn't excite me in the same way that it would excite you. So if a, if a particular client was really wanting to map out their future, you would be a shoe in, you would be far better at doing this stuff because you'd want to sweat those details and sit down with them and talk it all through. Whereas to me, that would probably feature far less. Whereas, according to my set of data, you know, I'm, I'm much better at working alone. Um, so that's fascinating. The other one on yours is the obviously highly creative and artistic. That's got to be a benefit. Surely.
David Waumsley: 34:15 Yeah. Well maybe a requirement of the job, but I would dispute that. But I do like, again, it's the kind of creative, the idea of wanting to move things forward, to come up with new ideas, focus on the future, those things on the strengths that I realized that that is true of me. That's why I want to get involved in, I guess that people's businesses and beyond the website though the ongoing digital marketing and I just don't get to do that at all. Um, so it has really made me think about what I like doing as opposed to what's been coming in and now I've been able to deal with it. I find it really frustrating when I'm of the clients of quite slow moving. But did you, I mean, we've, well a lot of Facebook groups and there's a lot of chat about how to, on board people and lots of processes that people have set up, which are so clever. Oh, I see. But they seem like something I'd never do and I've just come to conclusion. This is probably just because we actually do need different types of clients. You know, it's never gonna work for me to kind of set up these routines. I always railed against it in my work.
Nathan Wrigley: 35:30 That would be absolutely amazing. And of course this is never in the real world going to happen. It'd be amazing if you could somehow persuade clients, but you know, potential prospects to, uh, to go and fill out this survey and uh, and then, and then happily the results and if your personalities coincide, I suppose in a way that is what all of these onboarding processes to some extent I'm trying to do, you know, they're trying to, whatever the questions that you've, you've designed, you are trying to lead them down the path of discovering whether you and them can work together. So an example of that is my onboarding form is deliberately quite long. And what I'm trying to figure out is, is the person who's filling out, do they have the personality type now it doesn't appear in it. So you know, this is not a technical word in any way, but that they have that insurance.
Nathan Wrigley: 36:24 Are they prepared to, to sit down and fill out that form? That's one thing I'm trying to do. So in a sense, I am very, in a very minor way, trying to figure out what their, what the other person's personality is like. And I ask a variety of questions and I'm, I'm eliciting a response. And the, the end result is, I'm sure quite a few people will have arrived at that form, gone to what I know I've sent lots of people to that form and I never hear from them again. So in a way, I've weeded out the people whose personality dictated that they, they couldn't, they couldn't finish that. Yes. Yeah. They, uh, to fill in your phone. Then they really have to know that they want a website built and they've got some kind of budget set aside for it because they're going to put in some proper commitment in the first place.
Nathan Wrigley: 37:13 Yeah, yeah. They've got to spend a bit of time thinking about what they want to do. You know, they've got to think about their, their um, rivals. They've got to think about what's lacking in the current website, what things will aspirations they've gotten so on. So yeah, you can't fill it out without intent. You can't fill it out in a matter of moments. It has been filled out in a matter of moments, but that tells me everything I need to know. You know, I've asked for them in certain forms, you know, it's a big box and the question is clearly leading them because of the words I use. It's asking for as much detail as possible and then they write two words, more sales or something. You know, what's, what do you want this website to become? Whatever. I remember the question, you know, if they just write more sales, well that's telling me they're personality is quick move onto the next job and you're probably not going to work with me.
Nathan Wrigley: 38:02 The beauty of this conversation and what you've, what you've brought to me today, this whole new understanding is I didn't really think about it in those terms of personalities and now of, I've got a bit more of an insight into it, which is absolutely fascinating. I genuinely, I'm really intrigued by all this. Yeah, I'll probably just stretching out and basic idea, but I'd certainly probably really not gonna help anybody, but I don't know. I think I tried to think about niches and I couldn't get there. So this is my only way of thinking how am I going
David Waumsley: 38:35 to go after the ideal client? Other than that, he's going to make any difference to me in some ways. If, if somebody comes in as a trades person, just wants a website, doesn't want them to think about the future, I can accommodate them. I set the business up to that. But, but in, in terms of, you know, once I had this idea that perhaps then I can make content to reach the type of person I want. So I've kind of learned that quite the opposite to what I thought is probably who are work better with more the startups, more than people who just want to dive in and start something. Maybe don't have an idea, but I've got the process to accommodate those. But I could make content to go after those type of people if I wanted to do knowing that.
Nathan Wrigley: 39:17 Yeah. And knowing, knowing a little bit about the psychology of them. Um, I, especially if you're off, if you're going after the people who share the same psychology as you, presumably that makes it a little bit easier because you're going to speak the same language intuitively and you don't have to go through the hoops of trying to fake what it is to be like that person. Um, if you decide to go down this route, of course the, the big Achilles heel of this whole entire discussion is the fact that you can, you know, unless for some reason they do go out and fill this survey and tell you what they are. You, you'll never know. You'll never know what kind of person this person is until you've actually had a lots of lots of time spent with them. And then, and then even then, it's a best guess.
David Waumsley: 40:02 Yeah. I don't think you can do, I mean the best we can possibly do with personalities is know thy self, which is I guess what everybody has to be reminded all the time, don't they? When you're doing any activity, it's kind of, you have to get back to who you really are to know where you're going. And that's all this is really, isn't it? Just
Nathan Wrigley: 40:22 I, I remember when I was young, I may have told this anecdote before, but when I was young, I went to see a careers analyst. You know, those people who, if you're not sure what you want to do, you go and see somebody and they carry out a battery of psychological tests. So it's far more comprehensive than the 16 questions and um, the results, I can't remember, um, in terms of what they said I should do, um, I have a memory that they said we're not sure, but what the, the, the piece of advice that they gave, which is always I thought stuck with me was that maybe just do something that you instinctively in joy because you'll, you'll enjoy it and therefore you'll want to do it and therefore you're much like much more likely to succeed doing it. Um, so you know, that's exactly what you just said about know thyself. If you know what it is that your personality type craves or enjoys, then you know what it is that you should be doing with your time.
David Waumsley: 41:21 Yeah. So yeah, I think so. I think it's just a starting block. I'll probably regret this episode a few weeks down the line thinking, yeah, I can too. The all the wrong conclusions. But it is just interesting
Nathan Wrigley: 41:34 just thinking about this and what I like. Yes. I completely agree. Just thinking about the psychology of what people are like. Of course we could if we wished to talk about the, uh, the, the, the weaknesses of both of our personality types. I don't if you want to get into that one night, that estimate. Okay. So according to this, the, the weaknesses of my mediator personality type, um, are that I can be overly idealistic. Okay. Uh, I tend to, I tend to take everything personally. I do not, um, I'm difficult to get to know. Wow. Okay. Uh, I sometimes lose sight of the little things I'll does no doubt. That's true. Yeah, definitely. I can, I can become on unhinged by a minor detail where everybody else looks at me and goes, what? That's just not even important. Um, and I can overlook the details. Oh, that's so bad. That's so a website builder who overlooks details. Ouch.
Nathan Wrigley: 42:32 You know, they don't seem that too of what I know of you actually, you never seem to over idealistic, always quite grounded. So I don't have any ideals, budget, overlook details because when we're doing this podcast to you, one of the few people who said, well just put it out as it is, you know, oh, okay. You went right. You weren't, you weren't interested in the idea that we'd be chopping this up into little bits and yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's quite good. I think that's not a weakness necessarily. That's one of the strengths isn't it? Cause it just means, again, it's the other side of the big picture thing, isn't it? It's I love the ship it quickly mentality, isn't it? Get it out there with it's with all of its flaws, um, and then fit fiddle with it later. Yeah. I probably do do that.
Nathan Wrigley: 43:18 Yeah, that's true. Yes. Yeah. So you probably want a few clients then who see the big picture then and don't want to get all the details. Prepare to work with me to, to get the little mistakes ironed out. Yeah, that's a good point. You say there is value in this. This is interesting. And ridges and prison, new clothes. I think with this, right, here we go, this is David Waumsleys weaknesses can be overly sensitive. Okay. Again, not true. Sometimes difficult to get to know well I've, you were really hard to get to know. I mean it was like getting blood out of a stone. That's nonsense. That's not you with it. Um, can have, okay. Maybe this can have overly high expectations. Yeah. Um, now I refuse to believe this of you, but I'm not sure whether you will or not. It says that you're stubborn and it says, okay.
Nathan Wrigley: 44:13 Oh, you are okay. Really, you really, you can be. Yeah. Well I've not seen that side of you. Um, that maybe that points back to the earlier bit. Sometimes difficult to get to know you just haven't revealed. You haven't opened up your inner stubborn to me yet. And the last one, which I think is probably most important for us is dislikes. Confrontation. So I wonder if that's, you know, led you to decline work or step away from a job halfway through when it got a bit, you've got a bit difficult. Yeah, I want things to be nice all the time. You'll lie that though as well. Um, but nice stepping. No, he's just a silence. Stubbornness. I won't, I wouldn't do something that I want to do.
Nathan Wrigley: 44:54 Yeah, absolutely. It's that kind of stubborn, not take math much of an argument, but I won't be moved. But that, but high expectations, that's us. The disappointment is expectations in other people, not of myself particularly. Right. So we'd be a great blend, wouldn't we? If we were to ever work collaboratively on a website because I overlooked details and you have high expectations. I can go really wrong. Oh, and you're stubborn. You know, we'd be fine. You know, cause you've got the bigger picture and I focus on the future. So I just thought it was, I'll look, I'll look at your bigger picture for the future. That's it. And I take everything personally. So, you know, this is fascinating. I mean, obviously it's a stretch, like David said, to kind of imply that you can, you can carry this stuff out, but it just, if you've got an interest in this sort of psychology, go to the, the website is 16, so it's the number one, six personalities.com. There's no hyphen or anything, 16 personalities.com and you can fill out the survey. It takes about 10 minutes and it will give you a nice lengthy sort of templated report, um, about what you're like and, and also tell you about people who are like you. So this is fascinating. Apparently. I'm like William Shakespeare, J r Tolkin, Bjork, Johnny Depp, Julia Roberts, Lisa Kudrow, Alicia keys, and Frodo Baggins.
Nathan Wrigley: 46:25 Fascinating. Um, so yeah, lovely subject. Really interesting. And possibly just scratching the surface of, of a really interesting subject. You have anything more to add? No, I think that's enough that, yeah, I think we are already stretched it. Yeah. Well, you know, that's, that's our personality types, isn't it? Um, right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna knock it on the head in that case. Thanks, David. That was fascinating.
Nathan Wrigley: 46:49 Well. I hope you enjoyed that. That was really fascinating. I certainly enjoy chatting to David who's gotten that far more of a background in that than I have really interesting to see what the different personality types are and and how that information may be could lead us to modify or adapt our behavior when dealing with clients potentially maybe to to calm things down or to or to speed things up depending on what the requirement was. Absolutely fascinating. I hope that you enjoyed that. Please feel free to add comments if any of that struck you as interesting or noteworthy. We've very pleased to engage with you over on our Facebook group at WP Builds dot com forward slash facebook and we publish this stuff to youtube as well at WP Builds.com forward slash. Facebook the WP Builds podcast was brought to you today by WP and UP one in four of us will be directly affected by mental health related illness. WP and UP supports and promotes positive mental health within the WordPress community. This is achieved through mentorship, events, training and counseling. Please help enable WP and UP by visiting WP&UP.org forward slash give together we can hashtag press forward. Okay. Thanks for making the effort to get to the end of this week's podcast. I really appreciate it. Perhaps we'll see you back here next Thursday for another podcast. Maybe Monday you'll join us for our WordPress weekly news and possibly the live news that I mentioned earlier and, um, yeah. Have a nice week. If I don't speak to you before then, bye. Bye for now. Cheesy music coming in.