Intro: 00:02 Welcome to the WP Builds Podcast, bringing you the latest news from the WordPress community. Now welcome your host, David Walmsley, Nathan Wrigley.
Nathan Wrigley: 00:21 Hello there and welcome to the WP Builds podcast. Once again, this is episode 122 entitled is our marketing all wrong? It was published on Thursday the 4th of April, 2019 my name's Nathan Wrigley from picture and word .co.uk, a small web development agency based in the north of England and I'll be joined a little bit later because it's a discussion this week. Oh, I'll be joined by David Walmsley from David Walmsley.com for our topic about marketing. Before we begin all that, a couple of things I'd like you to do if that's possible, head over to the WP Builds .com website. There's a menu at the top and if you click on the first link, which is called subscribe, you can subscribe to our mailing lists. The first one lets you know about this, the podcast and the Monday WordPress weekly news because we do that on a Monday. You can sign up to those with one newsletter and the other form is for the alerts.
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Nathan Wrigley: 03:49 Right. Okay. Let's get into the main content today. Episode Number 122 is our marketing all wrong. Fascinating conversation today. David came with a problem. He's got to put a paper, paper poster advert in a London train station and he wants to know what's the best thing to put on it. He wants to know what will tug on the heartstrings of people who are thinking about buying a website. Is it emotional or is it logical? Will find out in today's episode,
David Waumsley: 04:18 This discussion we're called in, is our marketing all wrong? So I've got to be my bonnet. Well actually I've got a problem and that's really what I'm talking about. I've been trying to advertise our services cause luckily works being coming in via someone else and now I've got the opportunity to put a poster up offline to advertise our services and actual paper poster. Yeah. Real stuff. It's going to go. Nobody does that. That's great. Yeah. Well I'm just fortunate it's my wife's old business that used to be a coffee kiosk on a station in London railway station and , the, you know, we can just stick up a poster for our services. So we're going to give that a bash cause it, you know, I think it has about a million people pass through that station on a yearly basis. So it's a probably not unique is that you back again?
David Waumsley: 05:14 Um, yeah. , so anyways, but that's the idea. So, but also, sorry, there's a bit of backstory for this one recently I'll be reading a book and we'll discuss this. I think later calls don't split the difference. Great Book on negotiating. And I'm sure there's a, there's a discussion in that, but it reminded me of something. I think we all know that most of our decisions are made with our emotions. And in fact, this guy in fact reminds me of something I didn't, I've forgotten completely about, is that there was some brain studies. There were, um, some people without the ability to use their emotions because of damage, brain damage. Just found they couldn't make the actual decision. They, they could work out the pros and cons of anything. We couldn't make the decision, you know, just pointing that out. I thought it was.
David Waumsley: 06:02 Yeah. But we've always done that anyway. And then finally, and we're, we're pinching from our friends are particularly Kyle Van Deusen, , over, at the admin bar. He posted something about one of his competitors that they've run in a campaign by coincidence also, , overtrain stations. They've got billboards as well. Say Your site is ugly or your site's soaks and they've got a kind of campaign on , making ugly site, fixing ugly sides. And I just thought, wow, this was really interesting cause I just think we don't focus on the emotional and now marketing. And that's really led me with an idea of what to do with this poster.
Nathan Wrigley: 06:43 I should, before we begin this episode, I should say that I am the most useless foil for you here today because my marketing skills are less than zero. So I'm just going to speak from the depths of ignorance. I hope that everybody understands that Nano, what I'm about to say is based on any research or fact or common sense, frankly. But there we go. So yeah. So what are you taking out of this advert? We should probably describe the advert that may have been the, , the, the focus for the, the admin bar post. It's kind of a, it's a poster which points to a website and says something along the lines of, well, let's get the word exactly what it says. We fix ugly websites and then there's an Arrow to what is supposed to be an ugly website and yeah, it probably is quite ugly. Do you think that's, do you think pointing out to potential customers that their site is ugly, do you think they're going to take that personally? Is it the right message or do you think,
David Waumsley: 07:41 I think there's a bit of a problem maybe with that you certainly wouldn't want to use some of this real. You wouldn't, it was shame somebody. But you know, I don't think you would take it personally if you just said your website is ugly and I read it because I know it's a billboard. I know they're not talking to me. I would either. I would probably because I've got plenty of um, website shame. There are websites out there of mine which need fixing up and I know about it. And this might just hit up my emotions, right? Because I know I need to sort out this ugly site that I know is ugly, so it might work. You see? And I like this. It's hitting that my emotions.
Nathan Wrigley: 08:24 So that's the point. The idea is we're supposed to, with this marketing campaign that you're trying to create, we want to, we want to get people emotionally involved because ultimately that's where our decisions are based. Um, yeah, and I, I'm in agreement if I see something like that. I mean, what it doesn't say to be very clear, it doesn't say your website is ugly. It does not say that. It says we fix ugly websites, but the principal here being that if you've got an ugly website, you know, your website's ugly, you know that it needs fixing it, it togs on those strings a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I think to that extent, I think it's probably quite a successful, a successful message. I mean, like you say, it's not going to be taken personally by me. There's no way I'm going to look at that and go, wow, they wrote that for me. My on my website is, I mean, how dare they. But then again, um, if you were, if you, if you change the language slightly, you did say, you know, you have an ugly website, get off your backside and fix it. Lazy or something like that, then yes, it's probably not going to work out. But I, I think that's okay. It, it definitely hits the, you know, the thing that you said about decisions being emotional for them to work.
David Waumsley: 09:35 I think, and this is what I've been struggling with this for some time cause I, you know, when I did a first sight, I mentioned this before, it was very factual on their kind of changed and I made it more neutral. But what we tend to focus on, and I'm just the same as most of the sites that I've seen, I think it's true for most of us. We, we, we concentrate on what we can offer above just the website to show the value. So we talk about a web strategies, we talk about return on investment, traffic conversions, lead generation, um, peace of mind with care plans and all of these kinds of things. Um, but they are pretty much, or non emotional. They are all logical. They are all what supports why you might want to invest your money in s yes. But yeah, that's it's value. You know, because we're so keen on value, value, value because it's the only way that we can kind of get paid what we're worth. That I think it's meant that we've missed out the stuff that's emotional triggers. But I could be wrong.
Nathan Wrigley: 10:35 Well No, I think I looked at my website, sit well when we were having this conversation with bill before recording it. And at some point I had been, absolutely I did. And to some extent still do completely buy into that whole thing as well. And so mine is all about getting an investment back off your website. But you're right, I'm not sure that, I'm not sure that's the most effective thing. I should probably run some sort of ab split test and completely changed the messaging. So instead of it being, you know, will essentially the idea is you need to get a return on your investment to go for something like, you know, we'll, we'll make your website look up to date, have something a bit more like that, which is a bit more, a bit more person, we'll make it look modern or whatever. The messaging might be and see if that works better. I wonder if it would, I do know, I mean I don't think you
David Waumsley: 11:24 need to change our websites. That's pointed out the value some way because I think if you've made an emotional decision, if that's correct and that's something's got you to lead you to think about it. You do need to have the rational to back up your decision that was emotional don't use. So in some ways a website clearly showing where that return on investment, if nothing else is something for the client to justify for themselves, their emotional decision
Nathan Wrigley: 11:51 Are you going to go down the route of do you think is the ultimately, do you think you are going to go down the route of the, the ugly website on your poster? You're going to mention ugly websites or rephrase it in some way.
David Waumsley: 12:03 I'm going to do, this is my theory. This is what we don't, I think we don't, I'm going to try it anyway. It could be wrong, but I think in the context of a poster that's fine cause we can try it and then swap it with another post of easy. But, um, I think the thing is we don't, what I've noticed is that we don't focus on the things that I think, um, make the job. Sometimes joyful, a couple of good builds quick builds with people. And what thinking about it, what made them go great was the fact that the client's got involved in the creativity side of it. I know this is all the stuff that requires a bit of tongue by team for us. We use the odds when we're trying to design and they're trying to design for us as well.
David Waumsley: 12:42 But they did enjoy being involved in that. The fun element of it because it's something different from what they're doing. They did, I think, you know, particularly when I was allowing people to do certain stuff on their page builders to a lesser or greater extent, they got really proud of what they could do for themselves. And even if you, you know, restricted people, I think nearly all of us are selling something where they can update the content. That's the whole point of being with WordPress, isn't it? So I think, you know, we don't focus on those things because they use it, the things that get in the way when we're trying to design something for someone. But I think they are all emotional. And I think, you know, I think somebody in the beaver bill, the Facebook group was confessing to loving Wix adverts. It's Nathan Simpson. And I went to to watch a few of those and I just thought they so nail that, those kinds of elements of, you know, the creativity, feeling good about yourself looking good, you know?
Nathan Wrigley: 13:40 Yeah. The, theWix adverts, if I'm not muddling up the Wix adverts with say Squarespace one's, it's, it's kind of like a shot of somebody who's obviously like quite, you know, moderate, moderately successful, very clean cotton or what have you, and they're there or by a computer and they're sort of saying, oh, I'm just going to change something. I'll web on my website. I just want a picture of me. I'm on the homepage. And Oh look, here's what I do. I click and then click and it's done. Look at that. And they're very proud of themselves. And actually in a way that's what the client wants out their website, isn't it? That that, that moment of satisfaction where they're doing things, um, successfully, it looks really great. Of course they have slightly forgotten that somebody needed to Photoshop that image so that you know, and the lighting needed to be perfect when they, all of that kind of stuff. But you're right, I agree they have, it makes it all look so seamless and easy and straightforward and it's a million miles away from the value proposition of this is going to give you a return on your investment. This is going to make you blah, blah, blah. It's more, look how easy this is to do. Look how much fun we're having changing this website.
David Waumsley: 14:39 And then I'd just be thinking about the work we've got. I mean it's hard for me to judge because it's come through someone else. I could, I'd love to be putting my place on this. But I do think that most of the work that we've got a bean, very sites that had been left to go and they'd been embarrassed by them, which has put them off and then they don't spend like me when I've got a site that I built that I like, I spend a lot of time looking at it. Oh My, you go do that.
David Waumsley: 15:05 And then when I, when it's one that is too old and I really know I should fix it, I try and pretend it doesn't exist on the Internet. And I think that, I think that's what clients are doing. So in some ways the internet, the website shame brings the work to us. And on the other hand I think it, they resist come into as a little bit cause they just don't want to deal with the ugliness there. So interesting. Sorry, sorry you carry on. I apologize. No, no, no it's fine. But you said something to me cause I seen, do you think they come in because of the looks rather than the return on investment in for you it was, well you say what it was that you said to me. Yeah.
Nathan Wrigley: 15:39 I can't remember. What did I say?
David Waumsley: 15:43 You said that actually most people are just solving a problem because the person who comes to you often, it's sort of handed the job of getting this post site. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Nathan Wrigley: 15:52 I think I was certainly quite a lot of the clients that I've had. I'm thinking more recently, actually, I don't know if this is a trend over time, but seems to me that they've been given the task of building a website from their boss and to some extent they just want it off their task list, you know, so they're happy to go with with me the pricing was right and so on and so forth. And we, we don't really get too much into all that stuff and I don't do a lot of this marketing anyway, so I'm not sure exactly what, what's effective, but I think there is a little bit of that, but obviously given all of that, people would far rather have a nice website than a an old one and I'm just just bringing it back to where we were a few minutes ago. Do you think, do you think the idea of the visual appeal then, the way it looks is going to be a better advert for you then than the, than the, the return that they're going to get on the investment and if that's the case, have you decided which elements of how it looks you're going to focus on?
David Waumsley: 16:51 I don't exactly know what I'm going to do with this, but I think you know, if I'm going to go with the emotional guessing, the type of clients that we've had in and that I think their main worry is the look of their site. That's what I'm going to try and concentrate what I say, whether I pinch entirely what someone else has done, but I think I'll tone down our message. It will be something. But I do think I'll just, maybe I will focus on the things that we do, which will be a little bit about being proud of their websites again and a little bit of hinting something. , the fact that what we encourage people to do is to take more control of their own websites, try and combine the, the visuals with the control in a Wix style way.
Nathan Wrigley: 17:36 Did, um, when you were sort of conceiving that you've got this advert, how, how many words do you kind of have available to you as a, on a poster? You know, this one that we're talking about is very, very brief. There's one, two, three, four, four words essentially with a couple of others at the bottom. Once you've, once that message is appeal to you and you're going to go for like a very small amount of verbiage because everything that you've just said, it could, you could go into like whole paragraphs, couldn't you? But for presumably can poster on a busy train station. You've got a whack him in the gut with a couple of words.
David Waumsley: 18:08 Yeah, exactly. That's why I think that probably, you know, we fixed ugly websites isn't really good top line and maybe you can just put a, you know, a sub header to that and that's about it. And then it needs to have some sort of call to actions isn't it? And that which would have to be a landing page for us but also would probably be my sister in law who they can contact to and a little arrow pointing to where she is.
Nathan Wrigley: 18:31 Go and talk, really go and talk to her in the real world.
David Waumsley: 18:34 No, we haven't fully check this all out. She knows that we're going to stick up a post to at some point there and that she will learn to query refers, but whether we'll go to that extreme because she left to take you down I guess when she's not there, if we do that. But ,
Nathan Wrigley: 18:48 and are you going to come up with a landing or unique landing page for this campaign? Is that something that you would go to the lengths of doing, you know, where you are stressing that you've have, you got an ugly website, you've come to the right place kind of thing?
David Waumsley: 19:02 I think so. I think it would probably, yeah, it was, it would have to move on. I think from the positives are so they get would be more about, you know, fix the look of the visuals of your site and then move into all of the benefits of that. Because then if they've, if they've emotionally reactive, this is what I think and trying to get at with this one, then I need to go onto the logical reasons for why they need to, um, , they need the justifications to go with their emotions if the theory is right. That is,
Nathan Wrigley: 19:32 well, there's a lot resting on that. Isn't that what I was just thinking as we were recording this, I was thinking about the reason that a lot of people change their clothes. I don't mean on a daily basis so that you've got new, fresh clothes on are clean. It's more, you know, why do people perpetually go into clothes shops and buy clothes that they already have? And the reason is because of fashion, isn't it the way that things change and the look, and I was wondering if that might be, you know, like a, a fun way of doing it. Here is a person from the 1970s, I can't think of a worse era to pick for clothing. I'm going for the 70s. Here's somebody from the 70s. Here's somebody now here's a website from five years ago. Here's a website for now because you and I, obviously we spend our day on the Internet. We know what a tired old website looks like, but it never ceases to amaze me when I give my clients a page builder what they think looks all right. So their idea of modern and acceptable and uptodate is totally different to mine.
David Waumsley: 20:37 Yes. Well, we've, we've often referred to , , a comic that comes up all the time for that design process, isn't it? Where we're all on the same page about what's ugly. And then the, as the design goes and the client gets more involved, it turns into exactly something very similar to what he started with. And we know that and I think that's the problem. But I just think from the selling point of view, they were on the same page in the sense that they knew. I think you've kind of nailed out shy, and I might just nick what you've just said rarely for the idea of putting in fashion terms, but I think for that initial, we're all, we're trying to get us to the first inquiry is really, so I think that is an emotional trigger for them. The fact that they're a little bit ashamed.
Nathan Wrigley: 21:16 Yeah. Because on the one hand, if the functionality of the site is wrong, you know, men to say for example, that they, they need a, an ecommerce solution. Now they need some new functionality or their website is broken, they need some new functionality. But my guess is that most websites, certainly a lot of the work that I'm, that I've been doing recently has been nothing to do with the function. I think everything works perfectly fine. You know, the messaging is broadly the same. They've got a contact for them, they've got an about us page. All of that stuff is, is, is existing ready. It's just about making it look up to date with the, presumably the critical eye that they've got as a, as a regular web user, they, they've come to that decision themselves and thought, well this isn't quite up to date now the trends that we're seeing online from our competitors, we seem to be playing a bit of catch up. So that's why we need it. And so from that point of view, it's perfect because it's exactly the message that you want to deliver. You know, it's got out of date. It's not that, it's not your fault. You didn't, you didn't change the way that the industry's moved. You didn't decide what is now in on vogue and what color palettes and what fonts and what layout slow look good. But they have been foisted upon you and it's time to move on.
David Waumsley: 22:37 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think, you know, this one danger with the trying to upfront sell the value as well. It can go two ways, can't it? I mean I'm saying, but , sociology and I'm looking at when in the UK when the national lottery came in, it was considered a tax on the poor because the people who had the biggest money problems tend to be the poor. So they would look to that to, to solve their problems. That would be their dream. And you know, and similarly with sociology about the cosmetics industry, particularly how it affects women, you know, so you can, they can charge a fortune on them, basically a tub of fat as long as it's got a few active ingredients in it. that's associated with promoting younger skin. And these are kind of emotional triggers that get people to invest. And I think sometimes if you put the money in as your return on investment, doesn't that have a slight danger that it will only appeal to people who have got money troubles?
Nathan Wrigley: 23:32 Yeah. And also who've got that thought process in their head. Yes. You know, if, if I'm driven, well I, I don't really know how to frame the next sentence, but I think some people are driven towards a certain type of logical message and I think other people are drawn towards a different message. One where, you know, fashion and uptodate-ness and modernity and all of those things apply. I think you're absolutely right. It, it's, it's interesting because I have always done marketing for my website, which is awful. , that is to say I basically don't do any, I've always focused upon the logical stuff, which you've listed out, you know, um, return on investment, the amount of traffic you getting, the conversions. You've done a wonderful list. I'm just reading off it, lead generation branding and all of that. And then finally getting onto things like peace of mind with care plans and what have you, and we'll do it all for you. I've always focused on those kinds of things that actually, I think you're right. I think hitting them in with the emotional stuff, it looks great. Well, it's, it's, it's every bit as good. I would have thought as I was getting people onto your landing page as the logical stuff probably better.
David Waumsley: 24:43 Yeah. I think, I mean, no, I don't want to say this is the right, never take guesses. No, definitely not. I just think we, I think we missed in the tool and that, that headline, they're so easy to criticize it and just say, oh, that's not going to work though because you're just, you know, you're putting down people's websites and that's not a good way to go forward. But I just think maybe there's a little bit of genius because we do forget the psychology behind, you know, sales
Nathan Wrigley: 25:08 well, you only have to look at the adverts on television. Um, or if you indeed look at the adverts on the billboards around town, they do, they do very often focus on the way things look. And that's something that you've got, you know, luckily you're in an industry where the way things look is an absolute, um, it's a cast iron thing that you can bring to bear. You know, there's a lot of people who are working in industries where it doesn't look like anything. It's hidden from view. It's apart inside and other parts that you'll never see. But you've got that in your arsenal. You can draw attention to the fact that old is old, old not working old is ridiculous. Oldest is not going to make people happy and you can go from you. I guess the problem might arise is how many times can you do it? How often can you go back to old customers and say, look, your sites look looking a bit out, a bit ugly. I think we should update it. My feeling is it's like three year cycle or something like that.
David Waumsley: 26:03 Yeah, there is that. But you know, in some ways we already know we must have all had this situation where every bit of logical reasons being put forward for why they might not want to have certain type of animation or slider or something that looks in a certain way, , on a site. But you just can't get them to budge because they've just decided to, they're not thinking like we would like them to think, which is, you know, what's the, what's the visitor? What's your type of visitor? How they're going to respond with it. It really is personal to them, I think. And we know it don't we in our clients, so I don't know why we don't exploited maybe a little bit, you know, in our first advertising, this is going, going to
Nathan Wrigley: 26:42 be the world's ever ab tested poster campaign. I think what you should do is you should have two or three posters and get a, is it your sister? Yeah, sister in law. Get your sister in law. Sorry. Get your sister in law on a daily basis to change the poster on an ABC cycle. And then you can monitor the traffic coming in on a daily basis and see which is the, when do people do that in the real world to posters get ab tested. I wonder, Oh, we'd be lucky if we get five advertising for five months. So all of this, her heartache and thought put into your default poster, which, which will not be seen. I'm wondering though, if on the landing page you, you make this, the focus of it, you know, so somebody has obviously been hit by the message of, Oh goodness me, my site's really ugly. I really must do something about it. I saw a poster, right? I'm going to go to their page and they've, luckily they've scribbled down your URL or whatever and they've come to your page. Do you, do you just allude to the fact that they've got an ugly website and then go straight back to the old tried and tested logical stuff, um, to hammer the message home? Or do you, do you just go all in on the ugliness of it and keep banging away at that message?
David Waumsley: 28:00 I think this is yet to be seen. I've, no, I haven't gotten that far in my thought process, but I think, no, I think you're right. I will need to put in all the regulars, all the extra benefits. You know what, those are this thing because of me now, it's getting to be all about me now. But, um, because of the fact that I very much focus on the, they can take control, they can do more on the page builder side that allows those type of clients who desperately want that. I will try and build that in a lot into, I don't know how I will do it into the advertising. I think that's right. They can do it. I see. Sorry. Yeah, I think that's an emotional trigger though still. Do you see what I mean? I think that's what Wix are doing quite well. You know, it's, you know, the same reason why we're at odds with them when they're trying to design and we're trying to design the same thing. But I think you know, that is part of, for many clients I think not just the newness of their site and that's shame. I think also the feeling that they can be proud of having control over their website. Yes. Then
Nathan Wrigley: 28:56 yes, absolutely. It's like we said earlier, it's a double edge sword. Not only can they make it look wonderful, they can also really be pissed as hell. So it's a bit, yeah. Like I say a double edge sword with your poster. Then when are you hoping to get this up? I don't know. I've got a bit of work coming up so it probably won't be going out for a month or so, but , yeah. Can I ask which train station do we need to go to to see the poster? Palmers Green. Ah, there we go. It'll be a big ugly. Everybody rushed to Palmers Green. Yes. That would be great if you did a really ugly poster. Well there we are. Do you want your website to look less ugly than this poster that, do you know what? There's some part of me that would be drawn to that just because it's so self deprecating.
Nathan Wrigley: 29:43 I bet that it wouldn't suit most people though, right? I think we've done, yes. I think definitely has always almost no value whatsoever. Just me and David rabbiting on, I think I'm to call it is your marketing or is our marketing or wrong was highly, highly ridiculous because it really hasn't been about marketing. That's all. It's been about your poster, which is, which has been fun to talk about, but , let us know. Do you think this is a silly idea, the idea that you know, this, your website looks ugly. Is that a, is that a thing that we should do more advertise on the emotional level as opposed to the logical level that's no, put some comments in the Facebook group or indeed on the the website and , and we'll, we'll um, we'll get to the next podcast next week. Well, thank you for joining us on the WP Builds podcast today.
Nathan Wrigley: 30:36 I hope you enjoyed that. I certainly did. It was an interesting aside. We don't normally talk about marketing and things like that and it was fascinating talking to David about his quandary of his new advert that he's got to place in Palmers Green. If you're in London, go and see if you can find it.
Nathan Wrigley: 30:53 The WP Builds podcast was brought to you today by WP and up one in four of us will be directly affected by mental health related illness. WP and UP supports and promotes positive mental health within the WordPress community. This is achieved through mentorship, events, training, and counseling. Please help enable WP and UP by visiting WP and UP.org forward slash give together, we can hashtag press forward. Okay. That's it for this week. Join us on Monday for our news bulletin next Thursday for our podcast, but also go and check the Webinar's page out because we've got one of those with Chris Badgett from lifter LMS this week as well. I hope you have a lovely week. Thank you for listening once more, and I will say bye bye for now as I feed in the cheesy music!