This Week in WordPress #350

It is time for this week in WordPress, episode number 350 entitled, Who do we market to? It was recorded on Monday the 29th of September, 2025. My name's Nathan Wrigley, and I'll be joined by three fabulous guests. The first one is my co-host Taco Verdonschot, but I'm also joined by Rahul Bansal and by Rob Cairns.

It is a WordPress podcast, and so we do spend quite a lot of time talking about WordPress.

First up, we get into rtCamp's, GoDAM product. They're on version 1.4, and Rahul, tell us about how we can upload our digital assets with a whole range of different plugins. That's what's in the 1.4 release.

And Tacho talks to us about Site Spotlight, which is a part of their YouTube channel, enabling people to get advice about how to build their WordPress websites.

Then we're onto the main body of the content, and we talk about WordPress 6.9. Anne McCarthy's got a piece which tells us a lot about some lovely new features coming to a WordPress near you.

Dave Winer was on a podcast episode I did recently, and we talk about decentralization and the idea of RSS forming the bedrock of possible social networks bound heavily to WordPress in the future.

We spend a very large amount of time talking about the mess that the WordCamp ecosystem is in, in terms of the conflict on the calendar next year. Taco has a lot to say about that.

And then we mention a bunch of WordPress events.

And again, a very large amount of time is spent on talking about why WordPress lost the cool kids. Nick Hamze produced an article this week, which really, I think probably dominates our conversation this week.

There's been some layoffs. We talk about rtCamp and how it doesn't ever lay people off.

There's a little bit about AI, MCP servers, and then some lovely plugins, which are mentioned, and a few in the accessibility space really have piqued my interest.

That, and so much more, is coming up next, on This Week in WordPress.

[00:02:11] Nathan Wrigley: This episode of the WP Builds podcast is brought to you by GoDaddy Pro, the home of manage WordPress hosting that includes free domain, SSL, and 24 7 support. Bundle that with the hub by GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients and get 30% of new purchases. Find out more at go.me/wpuilds.

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Hello there. hello, I'm gonna say hello for about five more seconds. Hello. Hello, The reason for that is that the audio for the first five or 10 seconds is rubbish, and, it figures it out slowly over the first 10 seconds. So there we go. Now I'll begin. Hello, welcome to this week in WordPress, episode number 350.

Thank you for those people who've already made a comment. That's really nice. Appreciate it. We'll get to you guys in a moment. before we do that, I would just like to, introduce our panel. We're obviously here to nat about WordPress and what, better than to have a bunch of enthusiastic WordPresses joining us.

And, let's go first, let's go this way. Firstly, we'll go. Yeah, he's hiding. It's, it's Tacho Von Shot. How you doing, Tako? I'm all good. Yes, he's all good. Every bit of you is good. I'm pleased every single bit. Yeah, I was very lucky to, spend a bit of time with Tacho over the last few days.

We, we hung out, went for a late night walk around London because it was, there was a couple of events happening in London, which we were both attending. There was, loop Conf and then there was also, the W-P-L-D-N Meetup. And it was a pleasure having some time with you. It was really nice.

Thank you. Likewise. Absolutely. Thank you for hanging out and, spending time with me. who is Tacho? Let's find out. tacho is the CCO at Progress Planner, which is a plugin that helps you maintain your website by rewarding you for completing important five minute tasks on your site. He is also active in the WordPress community team, WordPress Accessibility Day organizer, WP Meetup organizer, and regular volunteer at his kids' school.

He and his family live in unpronounceable. Let me try, v No, you've told me the other day. I did. That's why I put it in Vian. No Rose Vegan. Vegan. Yeah. Vegan. Vegan in the, of course, it's a bit, oh, I knew that. in the Netherlands. And his wife says he's, his wife says he's happily married. Oh, lovely.

Thank you for joining us. Really appreciate it. Okay, let's go round the houses. So that was First, let's go in a sort of clockwise direction. That means we're over with. Rob, how you doing? Rob Cans. Doing good. How are you? Yeah, good. Rob joins us from Canada. He's been on the show many times before, and he is the founder and CEO at Stunning Digital Marketing, which is an agency that specializes in WordPress security.

He's also the creator and host of the SDM podcast. And in his spare time, he loves sports, music, reading, and time with his partner. Tiz, thank you for joining us. Really appreciate it. those two. Panelists have been on this show many, times before, but we've been joined by somebody for the very first time, and that is Rahul, Bansal down there.

How you doing? Rahul is, let get the, bio. There it is. Rahul is the founder and CEO at rtCamp, which is an enterprise grade WordPress agency consult, sorry, consulting agency that recently launched a video first digital asset management or DAM solution. And, you're gonna find out a little bit more about that, is made specifically for WordPress.

We'll find out about that in just a moment. But that is our panel. Now, it would be lovely if we just spoke to the panel. I'd enjoy that tremendously. It would be the highlight of my Monday, but what would be better than that would be if you guys felt that you had it in you to comment. Anybody watching this, if you want to comment, that would really help bring the show along.

Certainly keeps the conversation going. The, best place to go for that is this URL and. Sorry, Rahul. It does tend to cover somebody's face up unless I get this setting right. hold on, Let me see if I can do that. It's supposed to be there. No, it's not working today. There we go. That apparently is it.

Yay. go to wp builds.com/live. Bring your, your friends and your colleagues there, and there's a YouTube set of comments over on the right of the, the, video. If you're on a desktop, it'll be on the right if you're on mobile. Yeah, that the other, right that one. and, and if you're logged into Google, you can comment there.

However, if you don't have a Google account fee. There's a little black box at the top right hand side of the video itself. If you look top right of the video, it says live chat. You can just click that button and you don't need to be logged into anything. So yeah. perfect. It looks like there's a few people who've already joined us and given us comment.

That's really nice. The first one is Lawrence joining us from, typically Australia. Hello, he says, or hello, he says, Tammy, who was there in London joining us and saying Good afternoon. oh, it's the evening. it's probably late. It's probably like brutal o'clock where he lives like, I don't know, 11 at night or something.

You're going above and beyond. Lawrence Courtney, who was with us in London also, is joining us, and she says, clearly it's still the morning. Okay. Marcus Burnett, we're talking about you in a minute. Marcus. Stay tuned. says my, this weekend WordPress show starts at 9:00 AM That's in the morning.

Yeah. Yeah. We're at 2:00 AM where I live. I dunno what time it's there. Rah. What time is it for you, Rahul?

[00:08:50] Rahul Bansal: it's 6:30 PM six 30 in the evening.

[00:08:54] Nathan Wrigley: You up Dave Dunn, who joins us from London. He was there, over the last week. Good afternoon. From this side of the planet. Marcus says, I've already had a call this morning with someone in Australia where it was nighttime there, so my day is very confusing.

indeed. And the comments just go on. Patricia says, hello, Paul Bedford. Hello Paul. Joining us from Pretoria in South Africa and Amber Hines talking about you as well, or at least something that you are involved in. Yeah, a little bit later as well. So there we go. Isn't that lovely? Now look the comment now look, we're not back to normal now.

Auto shift. Let's try that.

[00:09:27] Rob Cairn: so that

[00:09:28] Nathan Wrigley: is our panel. There are some of the audience members keep the comments coming in. I really, appreciate that. It is WordPress, isn't it? We're here to talk about WordPress, so let us do, exactly that. I will share my screen. Firstly, apologies, a little bit of self-promotion.

This is us wp builds.com. If you head over there, there is a single text field form just here, and if you put your email address into that, we'll send you a couple of emails. the purpose of this show really is to liven up your WordPress week, but also to repackage it and send it out on a Tuesday morning.

So I will strip out the audio and the video and send it out as a video, but also send it out as a podcast episode, and if you subscribe, you'll be notified when that happens. But also every week we release a podcast, a audio podcast where I interview somebody. And I dunno if you met this chap over the last week, taco.

This is a lovely guy called Sebastian Webb. Yeah. And he was in London. And, we talked, last week about his brand new plugin called Amenda. Very cool, by the way, his brand new plugin called Amen, which I just said allows you to edit your content. Despite whatever tool you use to create it. So if you made it with Elementor or Beaver Builder or Gutenberg, he steps in at the last moment and allows you to edit it with his tool, click save, and a really neat tool.

I don't know, let's say that you are in, you've got a, somebody that's in experience with those page builders or something like that. You can, you can play with that. Rob, I dunno if it's you. I think it might be, but there's quite a lot of keyboard clickety, clackity. if it is you, would you mind muting your mic?

if you are doing the keyboard, clickety, clackity, carry on.

[00:11:16] Rob Cairn: I was muted. Yeah,

[00:11:17] Nathan Wrigley: don't let me stop you doing the keyboard. That'd be lovely. But if it's, if it's possible to mute when you're not speaking. maybe that's Rahul. I'm sorry. it could be anybody, but, yeah. Thank you. Okay.

There's our self-promotional bit. However, I always give an opportunity to our guests to have a little bit of a promotion that's, a nice quid pro quo, a nice backslapping opportunity for those people who come on the show. And here is something that Rahul and his team over at rtCamp have been building.

It's called GO Dam. we mentioned it a moment ago. It's on version 1.4. Rahul, briefly tell us what this is and what version 1.4 brings to the table.

[00:11:56] Rahul Bansal: Godem is a, like the name, it basically is a ndi Bengali world, which means warehouse. And our idea is to create a media warehouse that can act as a central, digital asset management platform for all your work per site.

It can, it has a. Like a provision to extend beyond WordPress, but we are focusing on workplace as a CMS because we are from the WordPress ecosystem. And since video is a popular format, most of the initial features are focused on videos. Even though a digital set can be anything, it can be PDF, it can be an image which are also on the roadmap.

our approach is to go with the integration into WordPress. for example, we are integrating with the forms LMS E-commerce platforms. And basically that is any, anything that can benefit from any form of videos. And when we say videos, it's not just, how do I put like a video? As we see in YouTube, for example, most of the forms integration that you see, like two of them are released in 1.4 total.

We have nine form integrations. Sure. Form, W form, gravity form, jet pack form. All forms are supported. usually we integrate with forms in two ways. One is that. On the form page, when you create a form, you have ability to allow people to add a video field through which they can do a screen recording.

Something like you might be helpful in job interview or any kind of video file, for any purpose, like a video, audio, camera, mic, whatever you want, it records, put it in the central warehouse and show seamlessly into your form into dashboard. Nice. Likewise, for LMS, we are doing how to put so we starting with lift LMS, but we plan to eventually extend to other LMS.

Also, the idea is that if you have a course where you expect people to watch a video lesson, so you. Course progress can be linked to the video players. So unless people finish watching video, the course won't be marked as complete. Sorry, the chapter won't be marked as complete and they won't be able to go to the next chapter.

So that is Oh, so yeah. Yeah. So this is our main motivation because there, there are like things like YouTube, Vimeo, so many players, exist. But we wanted to build something that's made for the WordPress ecosystem, which understand like the nitty gries of how gravity form work versus how if tele works, which are like, so these are the things that WordPress form knows better.

They're not just like dumb form or dumb contentment system. There, there is like a reason so many people are building with WordSpace and without, anytime there. Fitting the limit with amazing video features. Like we can allow them to do more than, rather than just embedding YouTube videos.

[00:14:50] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Video, is a really great place to start, isn't it?

You mentioned that you were gonna pick other formats, maybe audio and stuff that would obviously Yeah. somebody like me, that'd be great. 'cause I mainly produce audio. Yeah. But the idea being that you consume, if you don't wanna house your stuff all on YouTube, for obvious reasons, if you are like an LMS or something and you want your course to be hidden away, you can do it.

And the assets will be in this digital asset management system. Yeah. In this case built around the WordPress interface and then, you can stream it natively if you like. Yeah. yeah. That's absolutely fascinating. And now you've, on version 1.4, you've added the support for Ninja Forms, met Formm and Lifter, LMS, I'm guessing Ninja Forms and Met Formm.

That's a way of consuming data. So you can drop your video file, say in, and you know the description that goes with it. Yeah. And so on. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[00:15:37] Rahul Bansal: So it's like somebody's, say a word is in ninja form. They can add a field, like email name, text area. Yeah. They can add a recorder field through which people can record their screen.

yeah, so it can record screen also and camera also. So if some of you say you are, reporting a bug.

[00:15:59] Rob Cairn: Yeah. So you

[00:15:59] Rahul Bansal: can turn on Screencast.

[00:16:01] Rob Cairn: oh, I see.

[00:16:03] Rahul Bansal: Yeah, And it'll, it also records the audio, so it's like we are video first, but on the way we are taking care of other formats as we encounter, though we are not podcast ready yet, but that's one of the goals to not only give the podcast, but also monetization option.

[00:16:17] Nathan Wrigley: Can I make a feature request? Just, I had this idea years ago, right? And I never saw it through, but I thought it would be a great idea. What if the WordPress commenting system, oh, my, my camera is gonna do this today. For reasons I don't know, it just switches off every few minutes. I'm just, when it goes black, I'll just click the button and it'll come back.

can I suggest that something like Go Dam. Allows me to do video comments on a blog post. So instead of writing text and clicking enter and it goes into the moderation queue. What if I could do a video reply? Yeah. To the comment and then other people could reply with a video. Yeah. just like me just saying, yeah, that was a really nice piece.

I really enjoyed that. I love the part where you talked about this, that, and the other thing. Yeah. I've often thought in the, in the year 2025, vid a video, comments read. It'd be fun. Yeah. But, I'm gonna plant that seed and leave it over to you. I

[00:17:14] Rahul Bansal: think we already have it because, oh, okay.

We, so Godem is a successor to one of our old platform called it Media Transcoder. And it Media Transcoder. I think you put that feature some 10 years ago.

[00:17:24] Nathan Wrigley: Oh darn. Okay. I know,

[00:17:27] Rahul Bansal: I still verify because like it happens sometimes during refactoring, the features that were less talked about or not used often go missing.

Yeah. But if it's, missing, then we'll, we can bring it back in like in two days. the

[00:17:38] Nathan Wrigley: cost of video hosting 10 years ago was quite high. Now it's. Basically free. Yeah. If you use something like CloudFlare, you don't really, you pay to ingest it, but you don't pay to see it over and over again.

So you can distribute it infinitely for the same cost as it was to upload it. Yeah. So maybe that's worth another one. Anyway, there it is. Go dam. version 1.4. I noticed a couple of comments in here. They've done. For example, saying looks, sounds quite nice. You go check it out. It's Go Dam spelt like you see GODA m.io.

You can check it out and they've got a blog as you can see, so you can go and check that out. Okie dokey. Let's move on to the next piece. this is here. So we're over to Taco. Very much over to Taco here 'cause it's a piece given to me by Taco Site Spotlight. Tell us about this. Yeah, so

[00:18:28] Taco Verdonschot: with Progress Planner, we want to help people.

Move their side forward. And one of the important things is knowing what needs work. And we've done site reviews in the past. we were actually on the WorldCom Europe stage with a couple people doing live website reviews, and we figured, hey, this might actually be a nice YouTube format as well. so we have a couple episodes out.

Now we're not keeping track because I don't like to count. but, there's, quite a few sites that we've reviewed, and we're only looking at, so you'll see that, the format has shifted already over the course of the episodes. but right now what we're doing is we look at four different areas for a site.

just a homepage, just the content, technical and accessibility. and we'll give you some feedback on each of those, in each of those areas, and turn that into a video so that everyone can learn from it. Nice. And do you, take submissions from the general public or is it Absolutely, yes.

Okay. Yeah. I love to have the submissions because typically what we see is those are the people who are actually also doing something with the recommendations that we give. whereas if we take a public site, it might be. Gone unnoticed by the site owner.

[00:20:03] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. So where do we, where would we submit that if we want it to be part of Site Spotlight and have our site reviewed by you guys?

Yeah. So where do we go?

[00:20:09] Taco Verdonschot: You go to progress planner.com/spot Site Spotlight. Okay. site Spotlight. and there's a super short contact form. It basically, asks for your website and if there's a specific. Portion of the site, especially for the really large ones, that you would

[00:20:30] Nathan Wrigley: reviewed if only there was a solution out there, which would enable you to capture a video, for example, where somebody could show what it was about their site that they wanted you to look at.

That would be great if, oh wait, it's called Goda. Yes, there is such a thing. okay, so there we go. Site Spotlight. What I'm linking to here, what you can see obviously is YouTube and you can see the backlog of, the site Spotlight endeavors. But also, you can find out more generally about Progress Planner as well.

the URL is on readable. It's just loads of junk after the, the initial bit. But I'll link in the show notes to that so that you

[00:21:08] Taco Verdonschot: can, yeah, or just go to, progress planner.com/sites. Spotlight and lovely. You'll find the link as well.

[00:21:16] Nathan Wrigley: good, Okay. Thank you so much. Okay, let's move on.

Actually, before we move on, let's just address some of these comments 'cause we've got a few going in. It seems to be a while. so for example, hilay is joining us, says hello from India. Let's make the screen go away. hello. Nice to have you with us. I'm probably gonna miss a load out. ba recess.

Hi. okay, recess. Hi. Yeah, we've got somebody called on your mark design. Good morning from Jersey. That's really nice. da And then somebody mentioned about. Where was it? video commenting. I was talking about that video comment says on your mark designs, I wonder if this is somebody called Mark.

let us know in the comments. video comments would need to be transcribed to help with mo moderation, I guess unless they're doing something visually. definitely more involved than moderating text, but at least by offloading, you don't need to consider how much space bandwidth the vids are eating up and then Amber joins in.

Yes, but moderating text is faster than moderating a video unless you have automated transcription. I feel like we've just. Started a whole product Cho conversation here. If we could just take this over to get in touch with Rahul.

[00:22:30] Rahul Bansal: Yeah, we have AI transcription by the way. Oh,

[00:22:33] Nathan Wrigley: okay. nice, Amber, who is one of the founders, I'm not sure if that's true, Amber, apologies if I've misspoken of WP Access Accessibility Day, but certainly one of the founders of Equalized Digital. the other concern is accessibility. Could you force people to only include videos if they provide correct caption cards?

So I guess we're talking about the thing that I mentioned, the idea of having comments. Yes, good point. A transcription embedded underneath in a details block or something like, like an accordion or something might be quite nice. And then it just goes off in AI verse where they talk about how Gemini may be able to, I gonna let you guys thrash it out in the comments.

Very,

[00:23:13] Taco Verdonschot: there's a very important, comment, because on your mark designs is not Mark, but Lisa.

[00:23:20] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, sorry, Lisa. Apologies. I just, yeah. In incorrectly assumed that the, that there was something in the title there. Thank you for all of those comments though. Really appreciate it. that's great. Okay, let us move on.

Let me change here. So this is a post that comes from the quite stunningly amazing Ann McCarthy. She has a blog called Nomad Blog and writes a load of stuff about WordPress if you haven't heard about, and then it's definitely time that you did. And, this is V two of a. Post that she published all about WordPress 6.9.

And, if you haven't been keeping track of what's coming up, this is just a bit of a refresher about some of the things that are heading your way in WordPress 6.9. Some of these I'd actually not seen. So there's video which accompanies it. So if you're listening to this, pause it. Go to wp builds.com, search for episode three 50, and the links for everything are in there, including this one.

the piece is called, like I said, exploring work in progress for WordPress 6.9 V two. And the first thing she wants to mention is what I think is actually a really nice new thing, the ability to hide blocks. And there's a little video where you've got a simple show, high toggle in the, little menu which pops up when you interact with the block.

And, I just thought that was quite nice. The ability to show and hide things in the backend is a neat idea. I'll go through this and then you guys can jump in and let us know if any of this stood out. Then the command palette thinks Spotlight on the Mac or what's it called? Oh, there's like a.

Alfred's name. Yeah. Alfred or something like that. Yeah. now there was talk about whether this or not, this might be available on the front end at some point. And I think the dusts has settled on that and it's not, by the looks of it, it's just gonna be backend, which kind of feels like the right decision to me, at least anywhere.

I can't see why you might wanna use the that on the front end, but, that's now gonna be more or less everywhere. The intention is that it really will surface. Almost anything that your page builder can do and your Gutenberg editor can do on all of the settings and myriad different things that are in your WordPress backend, that's quite nice.

This is possibly the most talked about thing I would imagine is the idea of interacting with multiple people inside the same post. And the first step towards that Google Docs like experience is to en enable. Block commenting. So the idea that a specific block you can add comments to. If you can see the screenshot here, you can see it's got like that Google Docs feel.

You click into a block, let's say a paragraph, and then you write a comment, but it's bound to that block. You can't highlight a bit of the paragraph and say, I don't know, change these words. You'd have to be a little bit more granular. Once it was closed, it couldn't be opened. And so that's what's being addressed here, is the ability to reopen close things, which kind of, makes a lot of sense.

And and a load of new blocks, which are gonna be coming down the pike. maybe not. for example, the accordion block terms query block post, breadcrumb block, icon block. Stretchy text has two. I never know what the heck that is, but I like the sound of it. stretchy text tabs, block stabilizing.

Oh, the time to read block. And, something about stabilizing the time of contents block as well. There is a load more in this post about simplified site editing, but I'll leave it there. I'll just throw it open. Please feel free to interrupt each other or me. anything in there that catches your attention.

If not, I'll move on.

[00:26:52] Taco Verdonschot: The show and Hide is definitely something that I think is very interesting as a first iteration. but hopefully eventually we'll turn into a more of a dynamic show and hide version on the front end.

[00:27:12] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it's, a real kind of like nothing but all at the same, time.

It's quite a lot. yeah, you might, I don't know, you might be in the middle of iterating through a block, a portion of the text that you, I don't know, you just wanna hide for now, or something like that. It's pretty cool and you can see it on the screen if you're able to watch it.

Thanks, tacho. Anything else from anybody else? Okay. In which case I will draw a line under that piece of content. You can find it on Nomad blog. Okay. This week was a bit of a strange week for me. Very occasionally I get to interview somebody on the podcast who, who has been in my life for more years than I care to mention.

And Dave Winer is one of those people. He, I don't know. I've been using the internet since it was, very soon after it was available, in the UK and a real consumer of it. And one of the first things that made the internet interesting, I think was links obviously. And then soon after that, people trying to find ways to discover and make your content discoverable.

Dave Wener. who I managed to interview was the, person that basically invented RSS. I think there's a little bit more of a story to it than that, but he's been iterating on all sorts of cool ideas for many, years, and very recently, although Dave would probably say he's been into WordPress for a little while, he is now full on.

Behind the WordPress project in a way that I rarely see, he is all guns blazing about how profoundly great WordPress is. I was taken aback actually by how much he lauded its amazing capabilities. He loves the open web and he's got this idea called text casting. and also a project called Word Land and Feed Land.

And he basically wants to turn the social web, so I think Facebook, Twitter, and so on. He wants you to, he wants you to basically surrender using those and start using this idea called text casting. And it will all be RSS based and it will be based largely on your WordPress website, but it could be any platform.

And he explains it to me. I am butchering what it is, but you know what, if somebody else had said it, you'd be kinda like, yeah, that sounds interesting. when you get somebody of his caliber and they say it. You're okay, I'm gonna sit up and pay attention. It is well worth listening to.

So it's all about, making WordPress so think something like Mastodon, but much more closely integrated with technologies like RSS and what have you. absolutely fascinating. I have no idea that if anybody wants to comment on that, 'cause you probably didn't listen to it, but if, if you do wanna comment, let me just pause and go for it.

[00:30:05] Taco Verdonschot: I'm just curious to see if. He still has it to launch something that is going to be so widely adopted that no one

[00:30:16] Nathan Wrigley: remembers life without it. he's, he's older than I am. That's as much as I know. and if you're older than I am, it's, probably time to sit in a chair. But not Dave. No. I've got the feeling that Dave has masses of energy.

I dunno if you noticed on one of the, one of the things that we mentioned earlier, I think it was this, what, where's it gone? There was a, was it this one? no. Anyway, we posted them. We'll get there. Yeah. anyway, I saw a comment from him a moment ago, right at the top of one of the, oh, yeah. It's one of the ones that we're gonna get to in a minute.

Yeah, that's true. yeah, he's full guns blazing and if you like the idea of an open social web and you don't wanna have your stuff corralled behind Facebook or the Twitter platform and you don't want a limit on text and you want to be able to add images and you want to add hyperlinks and all that kind of stuff, stay tuned.

go and Google Dave Wener. Absolutely fascinating. Anybody else? The. Mark says RSS is awesome. It is. And we have Dave Weiner to be thankful for,

[00:31:22] Rob Cairn: makes podcasting easier. Nathan.

[00:31:25] Nathan Wrigley: It makes podcasting possible, doesn't it? If you think about it, there is. It sure does. There no such thing as a podcast without the RSS technology and so he is that, that I think is largely why I'm a bit I, don't know. I'm a bit of a fan boy, put it that way. I was actually really tongue tied when I started interviewing him, which doesn't often happen. I have to explain. I'm sorry, Dave. I'm a bit of a fan. If I, if my words don't come out straight, I think we're all, I think we're all fans. Yeah.

okay. There's a few comments come in all about the different bits and pieces that Anne shared. I'll just leave you to thrash those comments around between each other. I won't rose those on the screen, but, yeah. Okie doke. Let us move on. We're back to Tacho. Although, to be fair to Tacho, he didn't ask me to put this in.

I put this in the show notes of my own accord. I thought it was a really interesting observation though. It's entitled WordPress Flagship Word Camp. Sorry. WordPress' Flagship Word Camp strategy is a mess. You're not holding back Tacho. And 2026 will be hell. He says, go on, lay it for it. Yeah, lay it out for us.

'cause. I, there's not many of us that go to all the events, but for those of us that do try to get to all the events, this is very important. Tell us what's the problem. Yeah,

[00:32:40] Taco Verdonschot: so first of all, I think it's a good thing that we're not all trying to go to all of these events, because we don't want the flagship work camps to be the same thousand people just meeting three times a year in different places in the world.

Because from a sustainability perspective, that's not what we should be aiming for. however, there are quite a few companies, for example, and, let's take a smaller plugin shop like, WS form. If Mark doesn't go, none of his other employee Wait, he's alone. Yeah. So he'll have to go to all three if he wants to represent his company.

but even a company like Yost that I happen to know a bit about only has so many people they can send to, events. So you will see the same people traveling over and over again. but also on a, from an organizing per perspective, those resources even within larger companies are fairly limited.

So there is a significant portion of work camp attendees that goes to a lot of work camps. The three flagships. before we only had one, only work Camp Europe. Then in, that was in 2013. Then in 2015 we got work camp US as the second flagship. And, we were supposed to have the first work Camp Asia in 2020, but then we had COVID, so that was postponed a couple years, but now we have three flagship board camps.

And historically, those have been separated in over the year pretty well. However, next year, the three of them, WordCamp, Asia World, camp Europe and World Camp US are happening within four and a half months from each other. So World Camp Asia is happening in April and, world Camp US is happening in August.

And that's creating a very condensed schedule for those flagships. And that makes it really hard for those who have to attend two or three of them to properly organize their presence. And, also financially it makes it a bit harder if it's not spread over the year, but all, so condensed.

So I think that we shouldn't have competing flagship events. and right now those events are, competing for time and money. And that's not

[00:35:38] Nathan Wrigley: helping anyone. So the, I, I guess maybe some people will say, if you're in the privileged position to go to these Word camp events over multiple, three let's say, or four or whatever it may be, you might go to all the smaller ones that you're in a very good position.

However, I think you make the point really well that it's not really about that. A lot of these people will be employees and they will be, expected to go, it's part of their job description and what have you. Yep. so it'll be a lot of travel and if they've got a family or, dependents or whatever it may be, there's a lot of things that are coalescing at the same time.

Yep. But also, just the organizational side of it, it takes, a lot to get your stuff ready and if it's a part of your job description. Then it may be that, you're gonna struggle with your regular job. a lot of money is involved, and so on. and obviously these events cannot happen without the kind sponsorship of many of these companies.

And I guess in some respects, if it may feel a little bit less attractive, if you are gonna be seriously worn out, you may be step away from one of them or something like that. yeah.

[00:36:46] Rob Cairn: And, but even more so Nathan, and I just wanna jump in. Sorry, tko Yeah, go ahead. if you're talking sponsors, are the sponsors getting best bang for the buck?

If all this is happening condensed instead of spread out from a, from an issue of visibility. And I'm not so sure being a marketer that they're getting the best bang for the buck if it's all condensed, long-term visibility is better. So I think condensing the schedule doesn't really help the sponsors either from that perspective.

[00:37:19] Nathan Wrigley: Just raise a couple of comments that have come in and then I'll come back to you, tacho. So the first one is Patricia. let's just make sure that. Rob's face doesn't get erased. I remember Word Camp Europe says Patricia had to be in June because in the past Word camp US was in December. Okay, so that's separating them by a full, was that six months or so?

Half of the year. So that was obviously a decision which was made. somebody sat there and decided to move things around, shuffle the chess pieces around, so they were all evenly spread. Amber back again. Hello? word Camp Us. being in August is very difficult for parents with the start of school.

It's the first week of school for us and will not be will not be there again this year. Okay. So there's a direct consequence right there. Amber will not be attending because of school. I think we can all agree getting the priorities right, but it would've been nice if you didn't have to have that conflict of interest.

[00:38:10] Taco Verdonschot: and I think that is specifically for work camp s being in, almost mid August. if you look at typical attendance for World Camp s it's obviously a lot of people from the US but also a lot of Europeans, typically travel to World Camp s

[00:38:31] Nathan Wrigley: yeah.

[00:38:32] Taco Verdonschot: And in Europe we have July and August as the main, summer, holiday months.

And so it is going to be challenging if for, parents, absolutely. But even if you're not a parent and you take time off over the summer and the first thing happening. When you come back from your vacation is worth Camp s usually those last six to four weeks before the event are hard work, especially if you have a larger presence.

If you build a booth, if you have to, come up and bring goodies. All of that, that a lot of that happens in the last couple of weeks before the event.

[00:39:23] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. And

[00:39:24] Taco Verdonschot: now this time, that is smack in the middle of the summer. So if you are dealing with staff being on leave, on vacation, that will add to the complexity of having an event in August, and especially because it's very hard to organize beforehand because that's when what computer up is.

[00:39:48] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, really interesting. Everything colliding over this small amount of time. obviously given the nature of how word camp word camps are set up and structured and run, then everybody is free to do what they want. But I suppose what you are saying, and I'll just pop the piece back up on the screen.

Let me take Amber's comment away. You have some, thoughts on potentially how we might do this better in the year 2027 and, yeah. Okay. Yeah. as,

[00:40:16] Taco Verdonschot: as much as I hate to say it, because I love going to work camps and I would love if I could make that a full-time job just traveling around the world, meeting WordPress people all over.

Nice, nice. I know it's not a job, so I'm, that's not possible, but we might be better off. Slimming down to having only two flagship work camps a year, and then have them travel across the globe. because over time we'll add a flagship event in Africa, probably. Oh yeah. We'll add a flagship event in South America at some point.

We might have a flagship event in Australia. and we can't do no five to six a year, can we? You have to make

[00:41:07] Nathan Wrigley: some hard decisions at that point. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:41:09] Taco Verdonschot: So if we, have only two, that makes it a lot easier for sponsors. And you can still travel the world because. I see in one of the comments or we have to accept you can't go to everything and that's absolutely true.

However, we have a lot of big companies in our ecosystem, where the people in Asia would absolutely love, to meet those companies who are from Europe or from the us. And if those companies decide to prioritize, always prioritize WordCamp US and Word Camp Europe over Asia, then our Asian community will not meet, those European or American companies and vice versa.

rtCamp might not be able to attend all three, prioritize Asia and then miss out on the US market. So it's not as easy as maybe just don't go to everything.

[00:42:21] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. okay. So I will obviously link to this in the show notes that I put out tomorrow, but, you can find it [email protected].

and then search for, maybe just Google it, WordPress' flagship WordCamp strategy is a mess, and 2026 will be hell with some options for how 2027 might be wrong. Okay. Speaking of that, let me just, I'm gonna miss that one out for a second and I'm just gonna skip to this. We'll come back to that other one in a moment.

this. May be a solution. I don't know what Marcus feels about this, but, Marcus over at the WP world. So the WP world has been curating, the WordPress community over the last couple of years in all sorts of ways. you've, you can set up a profile and, tell people about yourself and you can bind it to your, where you are going to these events and so on.

But what you're seeing here. Is the 2025 upcoming events, page. Now, whether or not we would want to rely on Marcus for this, I don't know, but it seems like a certainly a credible way of going about it. Having some central repository for this kind of information might be interesting, and then everybody could.

Go in, see not just the WordPress events that are run under wordpress.org or the chapter program, but also all the other meetups and other things that go on in the WordPress space. Like we had an event in London last week that, that many people attended, but it was not done under the, wordpress.org or spaces.

So it, if you didn't know that was going on, you may have missed that. So having one place. So maybe, the WP world would be a good spot for that or something similar. So Marcus, if you're still in the comments, I'd be interested to know what your thoughts are on that. Tammy's got another comment.

Sorry, Rob, or Yeah, sorry. Your Rob, your, head keeps disobeying. Just, get the top of your head. the cause impact needs to be balanced different, spon, different for sponsors and also attendees. that's a point, but it's also not a solid approach to say, and it's truncated to reduce them.

Some can't travel. Oh, David, oh, sorry David. Apologies. Gather Press, does Gather Press offer a central repository, David? My understanding is Gather press is more of a, I'm running an event, so I'll use Gather press. In order. I didn't,

[00:44:49] Taco Verdonschot: yeah, it's a meetup.com alternative.

[00:44:52] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, but does it have version of meetup.com?

Does it have a platform in the background? So like we were looking at on the screen there with, I don't think it does. I think it's just for, so it's not a central repository showing all the different bits and pieces, but, anyway, a bit of thinking in advance and checking out what all the other people do.

I know it's a lot of extra legwork, making sure that the calendar is clear and, then obviously, hard decisions would need to be made anyway, because there may be inevitable clashes that can't be overcome. But, yeah,

[00:45:23] Taco Verdonschot: and that's the thing. There's more events happening than we. days in the year.

So there will always be a clash. but for our three main events to clash, that's just bad planning.

[00:45:39] Nathan Wrigley: I'm so sorry, Rob. every time I put up a comment, your entire face is erased. that's not my intention. So here's Marcus. Back to us, right? So here we go. I'd love to add meet ups as well, but I need something I can automate.

I add all events manually right now. Okay. Okay. So that's quite a lot of work, for you to do, but having something, over there would be quite amazing. ba, okay. Now we're talking. Okay. David, it's a wp I don't know what's wp? Work in Progress. Oh, thank you. Okay, thank you. Yes, it is very much a work in progress.

Sorry, A it is because it's surrounded by w and p. I'm thinking it must be a word pressy thing. No, it's not. yes, it's a plugin that you can, Amber is adding a cautionary note saying it's not good on the accessibility. So there we go. Mayor's my camera. That's gone again, I should lean over and press the button.

What fun? Marcus says he's been talking, oh, he's been talking to the gather press folks. And that may be the answer long term. Okay, there we go. Ah, isn't it fun when we get involved in these conversations? That's great. Okay. Should we move on? Do you think we've done that one? So that was all about, tacho and his bits and pieces.

I'm gonna stay on the events space and then we'll come back to your other piece there. Tacho, this piece is not new, but I just thought it was worth resurfacing. So we are talking about flagship events. The next one coming up is gonna be Word Camp Asia. And, the dates have been announced and the venue has been announced.

It's gonna be the ninth to the 11th of April, 2026. And obviously that then puts it right at the beginning of the four and a half month schedule that Tacho was talking about. And it's gonna be in the, forgive my pronunciation here, the Geo World Convention Center, which is in Mumbai, in India. and that was announced about a month ago.

So it's no big news, but nevertheless, if you want to attend, that's something that you're gonna have to think about. This has now got ticketing available for it. This is press Conf. I think you can now get early bird tickets, which wasn't the case just a week ago. So I dunno what the cost is, but you can now join the list and get yourself on the early bird.

this is one of the colliding things though. if memory serves, press conf, which is independently Ron outside of the chapter program by, oh my goodness. I am so sorry. who runs Raquel? Oh my goodness. Running, I'm sorry, Raquel. I feel terrible. Raquel. Didn't know that there was gonna be this collision and found out about it live in her seat when the, when it was all announced, it's gonna be colliding with Word Camp us.

So you have to make a choice. press

[00:48:17] Taco Verdonschot: conference colliding with Word

[00:48:18] Nathan Wrigley: Camp Asia. I apologize. Word Camp Asia written on the screen right in front of me. Yeah, you're quite right. thank you. and the last few that I want to mention, here's another event happening in the WordPress space. This is the much talked about WordPress Accessibility Day.

This is a 24 hour, live event, so you can, depending on where you are in the world, you might be able to consume bits. My understanding is all the, all of the bits and pieces have been recorded. So rather than it being live, it's being recorded so that the presenter gets the best version.

However, yeah. Except for

[00:48:54] Taco Verdonschot: q and a. Yeah, q and a

[00:48:56] Nathan Wrigley: and the chat is all gonna be live. So the person who is speaking will be, available for you live. And I did a podcast episode with Dave, who's on in the comments, Dave and June, Dave. and June joined me. I'm gonna be putting that out on the tavern this Wednesday.

So hopefully you can learn about all the bits and pieces in the background. But yeah, that's coming up. You can obviously register now. When I last looked, there was still some sponsor slots available, I think for bronze and micro, some of the smaller sponsor packages. So if you are into that, go and check it out.

You can see the link up here. become a sponsor you can check out. No doubt Amber will have any something to say about that. Marcus says, what does he say? Apologies. Oh, I'm so sorry Rob. This is getting ridiculous. It's okay. press con. The tickets have been available. Oh, apologies. Maybe it's because they're only available until tomorrow.

I caught that sentence the wrong way round. So they're available until tomorrow. Okay. Yeah, which

[00:49:53] Taco Verdonschot: is the 30th of September. For those not listening live.

[00:49:58] Nathan Wrigley: So you've got a rush on. If it's past the 30th of September, you've missed out on that. But, if you haven't and you're listening to it by tomorrow, you might still get in onto the wire.

That's nice. Okay. Thank you. He says, Amber, show of hands. Woo-hoo. That's great. okay. Was that the last event he thing? Yes, I think it was. So let's quickly return to this one. You sent me this in the link and in a private chat minute ago. Yes. It's in

[00:50:21] Taco Verdonschot: response to, Nick's article that we'll talk about, in which

[00:50:24] Nathan Wrigley: case we will go to Nick's article in that case, and we'll come back to this one in just a second.

Okay. We are in fact, in that case, gonna move on. This made the, this made a bit of a wave this week. I don't know if, you were on social media, but each week there's one post from somebody somewhere that seems to get all the hotness and all the buzz. And this week it was this one. iconic.

Very nice. very clever. This is Nick Hansey. I'm gonna pronounce it that way. Apologies, Nick, if I, butchered your name. Nick has a blog post. I love this site, by the way. I think it's really retro. Cool. And this is now the second time I've seen this font. And I wanna know, what it is.

I think it's very cool. I like all the bits, like the little kink in the D there. Anyway, Nick has penned a post called Why WordPress Lost The Cool Kids. And how to win them back. Now, first of all, are we all in agreement? Did WordPress lose the cool kids? Show of hands on the panel. Let's go back to the, do you think we lost the cool kids?

Yes. No. Ages ago. Ages ago. Ages ago. Okay. Have we admitted to ourselves that 21 year olds are not that bothered about WordPress? I could be wrong. initiatives like WP Campus Connect. Doing great work, making sure that, that the, young people of this world are getting a chance, WP Campus as well.

But if I put my children who are I think really in, in the targets of Nick Kasey here. They take one look at WordPress and they're like, who wants, a blog? Who needs a website? I'll just go and use, I'll use Twitter, I'll use Facebook, I'll use whatever. The cool thing of the moment is the idea of owning your own content is so oh, you're a 1990s dad.

We don't care. It's all disposable. Until, of course, they suddenly realize one day, oh. I got locked out of the platform. Anyway, the point that Nick is trying to make is that WordPress is no longer cool with the kids and he really is talking about kids. He says the following WordPress runs 43% of the internet.

But try mentioning it at in a dis it in a design discord and watch the cringe reactions. While WordPress quietly powers the New York Times and Microsoft Design, Twitter celebrates every exodus to Webflow like it's a prison break. And he says that WordPress is no longer cool because of a thousand paper cutts.

But here's some of them. The PHP stigma, okay, that hurts. interface chaos. Okay, that's probably true. The accessibility curse. I wasn't sure what he meant here 'cause I'm gonna read it. WordPress made web design democratic, which is incredible, but in creative communities accessible gets read as amateur.

Rather than powerful. I didn't know what he meant there. Amber, can you shed that some light on that and the security perception? Go on Tcho.

[00:53:30] Taco Verdonschot: I'd say that the accessibility curves is the right heading, but with the wrong explanation in this case. because, whereas he says accessibility isn't perceived as cool, I think that it would be much cooler if.

We actually did accessibility better. Okay. Okay. Because then we wouldn't have to talk about it so much.

[00:53:56] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. it, from what he said, it felt like when people talked about accessibility, they thought that wasn't cool. So maybe I've just paused it incorrectly. Yeah. Okay. And then the security problem, if you've been in the WordPress space, all of those have been a part of your life for the last 10 years.

is, PHP, eh, the interface is a, hot mess and it's getting more messy perhaps. we've got this accessibility thing and then security perception as well. and then people like webflow and framer come along, shock. The billion dollars that they have at their dis, that's an exaggeration.

I have no idea how much money they have, but they certainly do a cool job of marketing themselves out there online. they've got the slick videos, they do the TikTok and all of those things, and they just do a really good job. They've got, they professionally market themselves, their assets look amazing.

They've built communities and they are bragging about their tech stack. And so basically saying, we're in trouble. But then he offers us a, a. A way to fix it. He says we can fix the interface. We can integrate with design tools, which are cool already, like Figma and Sketch and things like that. We can write about success stories.

We can embrace the new technical narrative about things like the rest, APIs and all the cool things that graduates out of university are probably gonna wanna play with modern PHP and and we can keep building our community. this actually resonated with me. I dunno if you got offended by it or thought that he was wider than Mark.

But yeah, over to you guys.

[00:55:31] Rob Cairn: Two, things I'd like to jump in. first of all, the security perception. I think, and I've said this and I'll say this again, is security all comes down on trust. So if you're having problems in a WordPress ecosystem with, sketchy plugins, then I think you have to, as a designer and developer, weed out what you are using.

It's a trust factor. That's number one. number two. The marketing of WordPress, I think is why we've lost the cool kids. And it was a big discussion on X and I think you saw Taco where we were talking about marketing and marketing in the community. Guess what folks, we don't need to market to the WordPress community.

We need to market to the people outside the community. Marketing to ourselves is not good for the project. Bringing other people in is, and I attribute this to where, I, before I got into tech and marketing, I was very much a programmer and I programmed in an old school language called cobal, which is again, not to cool language, but powers 75% of the financial systems in the world too.

So I think that's where we're at,

[00:56:45] Nathan Wrigley: Is it a case though that you can never be cool for a long period of time? So let's take the music industry, right?

[00:56:50] Rob Cairn: Yes. Yes.

[00:56:53] Nathan Wrigley: If you, are born in the 1960s and you were into the Beatles and the Stones like, fabulous, everybody loved it all. Then you go forward 10 years.

The, generation growing up, they're not interested in the Beatles and the Stones, and it doesn't matter how hard the Beatles and the Stones try to make themselves cool. They're now not cool. maybe there is something in that, there's just this cyclical nature to the way these things work.

Technologies have a legacy. It's gonna be difficult for WordPress to step out of that. Maybe this is, I don't know. I don't, I dunno if there's anything in what I've just said, but Tammy, it is, I take it, on the chin. She says, maybe if we want to be cool, we should stop saying the TikTok. I do it deliberately, Tammy.

I do it so that I am not cool. The TikTok, you notice I put my hands up as well. okay. Any thoughts on that? Apart from Rob who's obviously chimed in, what do you think? Tucker, what do you think Rahul?

[00:57:51] Taco Verdonschot: I like the discussion on X as well. And I think that Mark Wilkinson asked a good question in the comments.

he says, who is we? And we need to market? And I think that is where the biggest problem is that we need to define who we is. Because right now what we see in WordPress is that the company's marketing, WordPress are marketing their own solutions. every hosting company has their own WordPress solutions.

And implicitly we all market WordPress, but we're also heavily competing. And there's no, as much as I love the people on the WordPress marketing team, I think it's the team that's been dissolved most often in WordPress's history.

[00:58:46] Rob Cairn: Yeah.

[00:58:48] Taco Verdonschot: and. That is problematic. we need to have a strong foundation that has funds and has a marketing budget, and we probably spend the money that the WordPress Foundation gifted to the internet archive a lot better on doing proper marketing for WordPress.

[00:59:11] Nathan Wrigley: So the marketing, I remember a quote, sorry, I'm muddling my sentences up a bit here. I remember a quote and it was from Bill Gates. Now you may or may not like Bill Gates, but he was actually quite good at what he did. and he was asked once, what would he do if he only had a dollar left in his pocket?

He said, what would, you spend it on? And he said. Marketing that was to him. it doesn't matter how cool your product is unless people know about it.

[00:59:39] Rob Cairn: Yeah.

[00:59:39] Nathan Wrigley: You, you have no product essentially, if there's nobody to purchase it and buy it. And, we are in such a curious position in the WordPress space at the moment in that, we've got, we've got hurdles that we have to jump over if we wish to use the word WordPress.

I guess that's part of the puzzle, the people trying to be very cautious about that. But also there's no if you are in a, marketplace, let's say hosting, you work for a hosting company, you, it's hard for you to give over loads of your column inches to WordPress. You're just gonna be talking about the features and the benefits of your hosting platform.

WordPress is not really the bit that you wanna talk about. you might add it, Oh yeah. And it bolts onto WordPress, but it feels like some percentage of all of the marketing that goes on in the WordPress space. If we could crowbar a bit of WordPress into that would be a. Cheap way of doing it.

But I guess, Nick, what Nick is saying is that really, we need to actually put our money where our mouth is. There's a whole other marketing in WordPress conversation that went on this week that I didn't really get into. But, thank you Tako, Rahul, anything for you?

[01:00:48] Rahul Bansal: Yeah, we faced the PHP part quite strongly because we hired a lot of college student and the, so the WordPress is something they haven't heard much, at their age or their exposure level.

But the PhD p is something that they upon and, so how to put like. When you say PHP, it's not like they're always looking or competing with React or something like the modern tech. There's always something changes like, from last two years. This is AI and machine language web, so it's not about WordPress or web anymore.

They want to build, machine learning platform. Something like they want to work for companies who are building expertly for ai. So, WordPress gets hammered across different way, not just the PHP as a language, but also take train. So whenever a nutrient rises, it actually makes the distance bigger.

[01:01:46] Nathan Wrigley: It's interesting so you can judge by the amount of comments that are coming in. I dunno if you three can see the comments coming in, some pieces that we talk about don't, get much commentary. This one's had quite a few, so it's obviously pushing some buttons. so let's just go to a few of them 'cause it's interesting.

so here we go. I'll just make that so sorry, Rob. it did lose the cool kids, but some are coming back and new ones are arriving. I hope that's true. I would love that to be the case. obviously Nick is somewhat skeptical that we're at that crossroads quite yet. Tammy says Sketch is not cool.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is all. I'll say some people love it, I'm sure. and then so hardcore devs and amateurs can use WordPress, right? You, we've done the one about Mark, which says, who is the we that we need to market to? Yes. No idea. When you've got 43% of the web. Trying to distill who your target market isn't it just everybody?

It's really, it's really hard to zone in on who they are, but I suppose in this case it's everybody under the age of 30, which is only about what, probably 3 billion at this point. Something like that. It's quite a big audience. Paul. Hello Paul. I dunno that we've met, but Paul Bunum joining us. I thought this was a great post.

He says, but the examples given of technology that have changed their perception didn't include any that have fallen out of favor and risen again. Okay. Interesting. Yeah, good point. and maybe Tommy's making the same point that the post uses dated terms, and I think that's probably it. No, I keep hearing that we need to market.

WordPress says Mark and lots of talk about amazing videos from the likes of Framer, et cetera, but who. does that for WordPress, who pays for it? Yeah. This is the point, right? Who would pay for that? It would need to be, I can you imagine the cost of those Framer Webflow videos? Squarespace. Wix, my understanding is the Squarespace team, isn't it somewhere in the region of, no, maybe it's Wix.

Anyway, one of those platforms has got something in the region of 400 full-time employees just on the marketing side of things. And their budget is, many, millions. Yes. I dunno how you compete against that juggernaut. That is truly a difficult thing.

[01:04:15] Taco Verdonschot: by not giving away a hundred grand to another organization instead of spending it on marketing

[01:04:21] Nathan Wrigley: Okay.

To expand that. 'cause I've, I didn't follow What did you mean? Sorry.

[01:04:27] Taco Verdonschot: I think it was late last year. The WordPress Foundation posted that they had done a hundred grand donation to the internet archive. I see. Okay. And what if. We had used that money to market WordPress or even to pay developers to work on WordPress full time.

[01:04:52] Nathan Wrigley: did we just get lucky with WordPress? What I mean by that is did it market itself? Because there was a bunch of people who were just willing to jump on board that ship. They could see the utility in volunteering their time for something that they would put in a bit of time, but out of it with all the combined time would come out something way better than the amount of time that they put in.

I contribute, I don't know, let's say that I did three hours a week, but if lots of people are doing three hours a week out comes this brilliant piece of software, which then I can use my three hour a week investment is time, money well spent. and it had that kind of open source vibe that the early internet did.

And now we've moved into a, a really different time where the internet is definitely a bunch of walled gardens and stuff. yeah, I don't have the answer to it, but it would, it, what would be nice is if somebody. Who is, I don't know, let's say a trillionaire just comes over to us all and says, look, there's a couple of billion.

Use that to market WordPress. That'd be nice.

[01:05:51] Taco Verdonschot: Yes and no. I'd rather have a sustainable system where, we get a lot less money every year, but it is recurring and we can keep it up forever than a one time, huge donation. let's build an ecosystem where talking about making money doesn't scare half the community away.

Oh, okay. This is, yeah. 'cause I think that is still one of the challenges that we have in workplace is that making money is a little bit. dirty. you can't really talk about it and we should because if people don't make money, how are they going to invest into the system? How are they gonna

[01:06:37] Nathan Wrigley: invest their time?

So this is an interesting comment from Corey. I'm not sure which Corey, but, hello. Thank you. does it matter though if Framer is cooler, if no one is getting six to seven figure projects for a framer website? yeah, interesting point. I dunno if that's the case. I feel like Webflow has only recently started to take on six figure, high six figure projects.

This is more in Raul's wheelhouse than mine being that he's, leading up a WordPress agency, which is at the enterprise level. Corey carries on. this just feels like the evolution of a maturing platform. Not to say we don't have problems, Interesting. Anything to say Rahul, or should we, knock it on my, yeah,

[01:07:23] Rahul Bansal: every time any of something like web floors, some of these kind of companies starts their marketing or outreach partnership team usually approach all the large workplace agencies like the, especially in enterprise space.

so I really never took it on any workflow lead, so I don't have the idea what their mathematics, but we are happy with our side of math. in fact, we are growing with workplace and it might sound more philosophical, but I believe in finite game we don't have to do anything. the closed source will die eventually.

eventually they will, have to pay the investor back. Then they will start squeezing their customers. yeah, keep price, the price, and then we'll get more webflow to WordPress migration projects. So in a way, I thank them because now I have. That consolidating my future user base. So five years later, probably I'll have 50 Webflow WordPress migration project in six figures.

[01:08:23] Nathan Wrigley: Nice. At least. Yeah. Yeah. it's a, it, I think essentially Nick has just encapsulated a hot bottom topic and he's managed to do it, and everybody stuck in it. It's an age old thing. I think maybe there's lessons to be learned from things like the Drupal project. Drupal have this system, which is a little bit like five for the future, but it's much more, you do a and you get B as a result.

So in other words, if you do this checklist of things, then you can, I don't know, for example, appear at events and what have you. Obviously as a sponsor, as the person putting in that money, that may not be something that you want, but at least there's a flow of money going directly in. And then, the marketing team might be something that is prioritized.

But, the consensus that I was seeing on Twitter. For those people who decided that we needed to work more hard on marketing, it all came down to where's the money coming from. and if that money's not earmarked at some point, then marketing is going to be difficult, not impossible. WordPress itself, I think stands on its own two feet.

if you can throw a lot of money at marketing, you'd probably have a greater reach. Whether or not, that's ideal. I don't know. tacho, it looks like you were about to,

[01:09:38] Taco Verdonschot: I was considering if I should bring it up, but, I think. having spent some time with, Linux Foundation projects, I think they have a model that works quite well to have open source projects that actually have financial stability.

[01:10:00] Nathan Wrigley: Do they have like more specific rules around the way that money is gathered in and spent? And I confess, I dunno. Anything about the Linux Foundation really?

[01:10:08] Taco Verdonschot: yeah. So the way it works for a lot of Linx Foundation projects is that you have a, board of companies, that will advise the technical leadership of the open source project.

And in order to be on that board, you have to be a member of both the Linux Foundation and that specific project. And there's a cost involved.

[01:10:35] Nathan Wrigley: It's interesting because in the WordPress community, I imagine there'd be a lot of pushback of that, wouldn't there? Because you'd have the, people representing the companies on the one hand who would probably love that, and then you'd have a, whole load of individual contributors and what have you.

You'd probably think, wait, hang on. How is that all gonna work out and how am my hands gonna be tied and rah. Not

[01:10:54] Taco Verdonschot: at all. no. Okay. this is, for example, what we're doing with Fair. it's also a Linux Foundation project, and it's also set up in a way that the technical steering committee, directs the direction of the project.

But, there's an advisory committee that will, that's formed as soon as it has members, et cetera. and that will advise the technical steering committee on, Hey, if you want to make this, decision, this is the impact on the business side of the project. so it's really going hand in hand, and it's not that you're surrendering, any autonomy or any authority to.

Whatever company. In fact, this system makes sure that there will never be a single person or company, in charge of your entire project.

[01:11:51] Nathan Wrigley: Interesting. Okay. Thank you for those insights. Now, because time is moving on, I think we should probably press on. But just to let you know that Nick Sey on his website, he does offer what he feels are some solutions and they are basically fix the interface, integrate with design tools.

I did mention some of these, but I'm gonna do it again. Create new success stories, embrace the technical narrative, and build community around creation. It was the hot topic of this week, so just head over to Twitter and, no doubt if you use the hashtag WordPress, this will crop up for you and you too can get stuck into it in the way that I did.

Now this then presumably was the piece. That you were trying to bind to that one. Do you wanna just quickly dig into this or is that what you just said? I,

[01:12:32] Taco Verdonschot: yeah. Some of it. Okay. Okay. so Yost makes a slightly larger, argument that we need both a product and a marketing team and not just a, marketing team.

Okay. Like we just talked about.

[01:12:46] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Can I just say that on this, I've, often seen, Yost, face highlighted, and then your face is highlighted when you do your post and Marika as well. I've yet to see a post by the bird. I'm waiting for the bird to, to write about. I'm fascinated. I'm guessing it'll be something to do with Twitter, but, actually,

[01:13:05] Taco Verdonschot: so this is our, the outside of our office building.

[01:13:07] Nathan Wrigley: Ah, it's nice. It's lovely. It's very nice. Okay, let's move on. Okay. repository, we know Ray. Ray writes a lot about bits and pieces, and she's got her take on this as well. She goes into great, great depth, so you can read all about that. I'm gonna, what am I gonna do? I'm very quickly, I'm not gonna labor on this and I, I don't know the background, but we never like to talk about when people are laid off.

It's never a good thing in the WordPress space. But over at, fueled, there seems to be a discussion that I don't quite know how this story arose. It seems like this story is preempting, the possibility that people are going to be laid off, certainly some way through this post. It seems that the, author who wrote this was suggesting that they had advanced information.

I don't quite know how that would be, but, 10 op, amalgamated with Fueled, a digital agency a couple of years ago. I'm gonna say something like that, and it would appear from this piece at least, is that maybe that hasn't worked out for the best. the reasons are listed down below is speculation.

I would say this isn't coming from either Fueled or 10 op, but it would seem that there's maybe been a sort of clash of cultures, let's put it that way. The things that fueled did best weren't necessarily the way that 10 op did things best, and perhaps this is a consequence of that. obviously it goes without saying that If you are affected by this, I do wish you the best and I hope that you managed to find some work on that bombshell.

we'll go to this one. it's a pretty poor segue, but there you go. I hope that's all right. because you over rtCamp Rahul, I believe it's true to say that you are constantly looking for developers. Is that true? Did I read it somewhere that there's like basically never a period where you are not looking for people?

[01:14:54] Rahul Bansal: Yeah. Yeah. we're always hiding.

[01:14:59] Nathan Wrigley: and Go on. Sorry. You carry on.

[01:15:02] Rahul Bansal: So the thing is that, So first, our work culture and, like a lot of internal structuring is very different. So we always look out for people. we scan them. So I would say, we are always hiring, we're always accepting application.

The response time varies between one week to one month. that's the only, slide, factor that changes with the demand. But we're always adding, we're always like accepting application. In fact, this is our new site on old site. We used to have wait list feature. so wow, no job was ever closed.

people can always, how I put So if they say a job is closed, they can get on the wait list. As soon as we have a demand, we will shoot them email.

[01:15:50] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, I see. So you're okay, yeah, just keep me on file basically. I'll be okay. That's interesting. So this is, this is careers.rtcamp.com.

Yeah. And you can obviously filter by the different bits and pieces. I'm showing that there are two jobs available, for example, in the engineering, facility at the moment, but 12 in total, two in design for, I dunno, what is this word? Frap. I dunno what that is. Forgive me. but anyway, there we go.

You can see the different bits and pieces there. Okay. Let's move on. We really are running out of time. Oh, it's this. The, you mentioned this here over on Twitter, our recent frap hiring announcement as just the opening app. So what is frap? Rahul,

[01:16:33] Rahul Bansal: so it's a open source framework, something which was inspired by workplace, but it is more useful to create business applications or any kind of data-driven application.

Oh,

[01:16:43] Rob Cairn: okay. So

[01:16:44] Rahul Bansal: FRA is more like Lara on prep. They have something like ERP next. the goal of ERP next is to be the WordPress of ERP world, and we started with ERP next as our own internal business operating system. That is what I mentioned, that, in tcam layoffs are extremely layer because we are supported at Driven, the, like we, we do the math, very well.

so every time we make an offer, we literally keep two, two years payroll in mutual funds aside. Nice. Oh. For each of our employees, we have a two years, salaries deposited in banks.

[01:17:18] Nathan Wrigley: Nice. So if you get a job over there, you're you're in good, position. Yeah. Not a single

[01:17:23] Rahul Bansal: law in six, 16 years.

[01:17:25] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, wow. Wow, Good grief. That's quite a statistic. Okay. In that case, I'm gonna reintroduce you to this page, careers rtc camp.com. Go check it out. That's phenomenal.

[01:17:36] Taco Verdonschot: Thank you. Nathan, you were at Word Camp Asia, where R Camp was one of the sponsors, right? I was, yeah. have you, met anyone on their team who's not awesome?

No,

[01:17:47] Nathan Wrigley: not yet. Same. yeah. that's gonna be our quest to find somebody on the rtCamp team who is not awesome. Oh, that's lovely. What a lovely story that is. And if you get a job there, you've got two months of two years of salary, banked already. Okay. apropo, oh, let's move to this one quickly.

'cause we are running outta time. I didn't, I think this is new. I got some confirmation that this was new by some of the guests. When we just did the little preamble talk before the show started. Shopify have launched a plugin. obviously if you're selling things online, the traditional way of doing that would be some WordPress plugin.

Perhaps WooCommerce is the most pop. Common way of doing it. But we do know that a lot of clients like to go to Shopify. you can now integrate that with a couple of blocks. inside your WordPress sites there's a plugin which will enable you to build different bits and pieces in WordPress.

Honestly, I've got nothing more to say about it than that it exists. It may be that, you can bolster your WordPress solution without the, the need to stretch over to WooCommerce. But, yeah,

[01:18:53] Taco Verdonschot: I'm really, interested in seeing what this will mean for the future of WooCommerce.

[01:19:00] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it's a big play, right?

It's a small launch with just a couple of blocks, but they're building, a product, which is, I don't know. I was on the London Underground this week. I dunno if you saw any of them, taco. There were tons of Shopify adverts all over the place. Yep. Those ads, they are not cheap. And there were many of them.

So that here we come to marketing again. yeah, you stick an advert on the London Underground and suddenly you're finding tens of millions of people who probably 99.9% of them would've no interest. But look at the power of what they're doing. They get in front of people, and now apparently you can do your Shopify itinerary and checkout process and all of that, inside of your WordPress site with a plugin.

Beyond that, I don't know. I dunno if anybody else has had a play yet, but it's there. okay, let's move on. There it is. Next one, then

[01:19:57] Rahul Bansal: that. Cool. Kids are moving workplace in a way. Say that, say

[01:20:01] Nathan Wrigley: again,

[01:20:02] Rahul Bansal: sorry. So with Shopify taking WordPress seriously, finally we can say some cool kids are taking WordPress seriously.

[01:20:10] Nathan Wrigley: So, there's an interesting talking point, right? Would it, I wonder if it'll swell WordPress numbers. because you can do things obviously, if you want a blog or something like that. I imagine the Shopify constraints are pretty great around that kind of thing. And if you just wanna, a website with contact forms and all that kind of stuff, WordPress is guaranteed to be better than Shopify, I would imagine, in that scenario.

So I wonder if it will draw people in. I'd be also curious to see how much they, promote it outside of the, the WordPress space. Obviously they're doing it here, but whether or not they'll. talk about this on their tube adverts. I'm not quite so sure. Time will tell. Okay. Righty ho. Okay. how it, never stops though, does it?

So we've got one thing on the Shopify side, and now we've got this on the WooCommerce side. Again, I think this is new. WooCommerce now, offers you the availability to do POS point of sale. You can do card payments from what looks like a mobile phone app. as simple as, obviously we're looking at the example here.

You've seen this a million times earlier, haven't you? Somebody deploying a mobile device or a iPad or something like that to do the checkout process. You go up to the counter, something gets scanned. yeah, look, here they are, a couple of links to the, the Apple iOS, the App store, but also the Google Play Store.

And now you have the solution available to you. It does say it's currently only available in the uk. And the us but, yeah. what more can you say? So on the one hand, Shopify's eating WooCommerce's lunch, on the other hand, WooCommerce fighting back with, with Android and iOS apps to make it possible.

Through all of that, Nathan,

[01:21:57] Rob Cairn: 2 cents here. going back to the cool kids. Hold discussion. If you wanna be a cool kid, you gotta be first to market. And I'm sorry, WooCommerce is way behind in this space. Yes. PayPal's already been there Square by Jack Dorsey's already been there. There's a multiple other platforms and I think.

I hate to direct this conversation back there, but if we wanna keep being that cool product, we gotta be back on the front end of this stuff. That's, yeah. It,

[01:22:28] Nathan Wrigley: I think I, when I, dunno if you noticed in the show notes that I put, I wrote something to that effect. I put something like, I wonder if this is too late or, something like that.

I think so. Yeah. It's interesting. you, I really, I think I've been able to do this with, something like Stripe or what have you for the longest time, but obviously it wouldn't have bound to, to WooCommerce. Rahul has, disappeared. Let's hope his internet connection is staying around.

But, whilst he's not here, I think we should mention this because he probably would be embarrassed. Yeah. Look, Dave didn't, says I see a lot of awards behind Royal Hall in the camera back. Yeah. They are legit awards. Yeah. he is he is an a one enterprise agency and he runs that and I think, wow.

He's, he's quite, quite the person to have on the show. It's pretty amazing. Okay, so maybe we're late to the party there. Mark West Guard was in the comments earlier. I hope that, I hope that he forgives me for saying this. mark, way above my pay grade here, I haven't the faintest idea what you're wrong about.

I do he, he's written a tutorial and it is that, so I'm just mentioning it. He's written a tutorial about how you can create an MMCP server in the word in WordPress with the abilities API and the MCP adapter. So the idea being that you can combine AI with the abilities, API, which I don't know, for example, the ability might be create a blog post or create a user or something like that.

And, that sort of stuff is really difficult to do. And Mark has explained in this tutorial how to do it. I won't go into the knots and the bolts of how to do that. Welcome back, Rahul. I hope that, I hope all is well. Sometimes these things happen. okay. So there we go. That's that. Anything wanna say?

Anybody wanna say anything? But I can. So conscious that we've got almost no time left. Okay, great. I'm gonna quickly move on. this one Mark

[01:24:20] Taco Verdonschot: did a nice TLDR in the comments, by the way.

[01:24:22] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, Mark West Guard. There we go. Oh, now it's Raul's face that's getting wiped out. It's not Rob anymore. Oh, sorry. Rahul.

TLDR says Mark West Guard, the creator of the article we've just put up there, how to get our tools like chat, GPT or Claude to safely interact with WordPress. Thank you. You summarized it lots better than I did, which is great 'cause you wrote it. I've read it, I've read every word, but I was trying to figure out how to say it in 12 sentences and there wasn't an easy way.

So thank you. just flipping back just for a moment, Sinan, WP says, Shopify is an insanely expensive solution. The more you scale, the more okay. It gets too, unlike WooCommerce. I did not know that.

[01:25:05] Rob Cairn: So hang on a sec. I would humbly disagree with a bit of that comment. If your WooCommerce store is scaling, your hosting has to scale.

So let's, watch where we put our dollars. It's where you wanna put your money and how you wanna do it. I'm not, supporting Shopify. I am just Yeah. Saying the obvious. Okay. We've gotta, people don't think of stuff that way and we gotta start to think that

[01:25:30] Nathan Wrigley: way. Yeah. The graph curves upwards regardless of which platform you're using.

But yeah, I suppose you have to Exactly. Yeah. See, which way the graph curves for both of those things. Okay.

[01:25:40] Rob Cairn: Yep.

[01:25:41] Nathan Wrigley: and thank you Mark for, explaining that in a very thrifty way. Okay. The next one. This is so great. Let's hope this tape, oh, and it's. blanked itself out. I dunno if we, oh, there we go.

You can see it now. Yeah. So this is the, a demo of 2.1, version of the Blocks Accessibility Checks plugin. Maybe this is really old hat and I've never come across it, but I've never seen this before. So let me just click play. I'll just scrape back a little bit. So imagine you're in a post and you, I dunno, you're dropping in paragraphs and images.

It's very limited at the moment I think it only works with headings, paragraphs, and, images, something like that. But you drop in, let's say a oh and buttons, you drop in a button and it will immediately, in real time, give you feedback about the accessibility of where you are at right now. So, in this case, the message being read is buttons are required to have a link.

Yeah, that button will have a link, but it hasn't yet. And so the plugin is intercepting and saying, okay, get on with it. Make us a link. And then you can imagine what happens. You put in a link that nag goes away and a different one would come up. And so this video then shows you, for example, problems that you might have with tables, problems that you might have with, buttons, problems that you might have with text, with images.

And I just think this is such a clever way of surfacing the problems as you begin to type the problem. as you solve them, the problems go away. New ones are ingested and displayed in front of you. And I just think this is really cool. Amber, please tell me I'm wrong. If there's some problem here, let me know.

But it seems like the first steps into what I think is a very interesting workflow for solving accessibility problems. Yeah. And

[01:27:35] Taco Verdonschot: now. Let's imagine a future where we combine this with the, comments on the block so that you get, oh, get a suggestion. You can actually respond and have a chat on a possible solution, and then you combine it with Mark's MCP.

and you can have AI respond to your comments and solve these problems for you.

[01:28:00] Nathan Wrigley: And WordPress is cool again. Yes. Woo. It's, yeah, we just figured out how to make WordPress cool. It is cool. Oh, look, as if that happened at the same time. it is. Cool. Says, she must have written that about 15 seconds ago 'cause there's a bit of a lag, but that coincided beautifully.

we've talked about doing this too. Yeah. Amber, when I watch this workflow and I see that, you put a link in and that thing just disappears and you move on to the next thing and the things don't get listed before they're needed. It's just really, clever. a beautiful u UX basically.

So let's hope that project, gets some traction. It is called block Accessibility Checks, and it's only available for core blocks and only a few of them. Right now it's a little UI where you can. Toggle things on and off in the background. So that's one thing. Another plugin I wanted to mention was this.

I have wanted this in my life. It turns out forever, but never knew it until this week. It's the ability to simply, bookmark something inside a WordPress. Maybe this exists, maybe somebody's done this already, but I haven't seen it. for example, I don't know you want to say I keep coming back to this page and because I've got 900 pages on my website and I can't remember what the heck I called it, and everything's organized alphabetically, I can't ever find it.

now you can, you just star a bunch of things, post pages, whatever, and now it's bookmarked so you can come back to it and say. There it is. So I thought that was quite cool. It's just called admin bookmarks and it just, does that one thing. Very nice. Moving on, this is, I dunno if this is good or not, Amber.

Again, from the accessibility point of view, you can tell me, maybe this destroys accessibility, I'm not sure. it's a plugin called blah blah Blocks, formats. Great name by the way. Love it. And it enables you to do all these funky different ways of highlighting text, curly, underline, crossed out, strike, and so on.

That's what that does. Thought I'd mention that. And then lastly, just because he is awesome, Justin Tadlock has created a breadcrumbs block, which, does exactly that. It enables you to drop in a block and it will tell people where they are in the, the sort of the breadcrumb nature of your website.

So you can go and check that out as well. And we had absolutely loads more. We had telex to talk about. I was gonna show you this fun thing, which enabled you to get really annoyed with captures. That was fun. We were gonna talk about email being launched as a CloudFlare service in private beta. We were gonna, ah, we were gonna do, let, should we just quickly have you all got a minute?

Quickly, very quickly, John o Alderson has done what I consider to be some epic work. He's. He's, it's so good. And can you imagine how many hours he sunk into this? Just because he was able to put the word IPO in front of Lighthouse. So he is created impolite house and basically it's like a, it's like a full on legit lighthouse replacement.

Only. It's really mean. It's just really rude. It's deliberately rude. So there are various levels. You get the idea, you put in a URL, and you want some lighthouse feedback as you might. You can then choose a level of annoying. the first one is irritated, which is what I used. You can go for silly, which they call Monty Python.

And apparently Tachos tried this out. You can go for scathing, which is called nuclear. is it pretty brutal? Is it, yes. Okay. Yeah. I just went irritated. and and this is the kind of feedback that you get. So it's a bit normally you just get your metrics and it'd be making nice, polite suggestions.

This just leans in on meanness, which is just so funny. This site behaves apparently like an organization that's given up on its users critical basic decisions, avoiding pointless redirection chains and limiting third party JavaScript haven't been fixed, which means the team either can't or won't prioritize simple high impact improvements and it goes on.

and I would like to applaud anybody who makes anything on the internet, which is funny, and that. Presumably that's all this is, just So

[01:32:13] Taco Verdonschot: the thing is, if you've ever met Jono

[01:32:16] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[01:32:17] Taco Verdonschot: You can only read this with his voice in the back of your head. Yeah, There's only

[01:32:23] Nathan Wrigley: one way. Yeah. I've never, I don't think I've ever, I've met Jono in that.

I've watched his presentations. Jono, is it Jono? Jono talks at the speed of light? Is that, are we talking? Yes. Yeah. It's about the same Jono. So I'm imagining that if somebody else was to build this, it'd probably take a week. I reckon Jono probably did it in eight minutes or something. 'cause if he types at the speed that he talks, yep.

That's not unlikely. But I absolutely love it. It's really, good. and here we go. A little comment from reseller Reese. Jono yelling at you for being useless is pretty much part of the course. Okay. And Amber says, yes, I was definitely hearing his voice. So Bravo Jono, go and check it out.

There is at, the johno alderson.com website and I will link to it in the show notes, but it's basically johno alderson.com/impolite house. whether or not it actually has useful nuggets of information in there, I do not know. It does, yes, but it'll certainly make you laugh, which is the main point, Okay, we were gonna talk about Matt Mullenweg and listening to music as you play websites. We were gonna talk about this spam GPT tool, but time has run away with us, so we will not, we will save those for another week. Oh wow.

[01:33:39] Rob Cairn: Oh yeah. I know.

[01:33:40] Nathan Wrigley: That's how it goes. so that was this week in WordPress, episode 350.

It featured Tacho at Don Shop. It featured Rahul Sal and it featured Rob Cairns and myself, Nathan Wrigley. we'll be back. We're back all the time. There's never a Monday that goes by where we're not back. unless it's Christmas or something like that and or I'm on a plane, then we're not here. but every other week we'll be back.

So we'll be back next week. But before we go, we have to do the slightly humiliating hand wave, Raul's going, what the heck? we do this what we do. There we go. That's all that I require. We do it so that I can make the album up. any suggestion? Did anybody think of anything that we could call this title?

I've, I've got written down here, only one. And it was the need to slim down. Tachos said it at one point and I thought that would apply to me beautifully. I need to, slim down. Oh, I feel

[01:34:32] Taco Verdonschot: seen as well. So yeah.

[01:34:35] Nathan Wrigley: I'm gonna go on a diet when this episode finishes. That's it. We'll be back next week.

You have a lovely time. The guests, if you wanna stick around and have a chatter after this is done, that would be lovely. We like to do that as well. But, see you next week everybody. Take care.

[01:34:49] Rob Cairn: Bye-bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye.