This Week in WordPress #342

[00:00:03] Nathan Wrigley: It is time for this week in WordPress, episode number 342 entitled AI Is lit. It was recorded on Monday, the 28th of July, 2025.

My name's Nathan Wrigley, and today I am joined by co-host Michelle Frechette and by guests Andrew Palmer, and also I am joined by Rob Cairns.

we spend quite a bit of the time at the beginning talking about some bits and pieces that the guests have brought. Michelle has brought along, wpincludes.me and also WP Trail Buddies. They are projects in the WordPress space to promote you inside the WordPress project.

Andrew brings along something called Early Access. It's the Agentic AI, which is coming to Atarim, and also talks about some updates to his personal website. And also all of the bits and pieces that are happening across the WordPress project. And we sum all of that up in a calendar of meetings. There really is an awful lot going on.

And then we get into the WordPress stuff and we say a thank you to Equalize Digital for all of the bits and pieces that they have done, especially in the recent release of WooCommerce.

We also talk about some events, but the vast majority of this episode is all of us trying to grapple with AI in WordPress. And the dramatic changes that have been happening just over the last few weeks with the AI team.

So we unpack three articles on Make WordPress, but then we also get into a whole slew of other products coming out of places like Hostinger and Elementor. So there's absolutely loads of AI bits and pieces, and right at the end we also draw a fish.

It's all coming up next on this week in WordPress.

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Hello, hello. Oh, yeah, there he is. Just trying get, rid of the evidence quick. it's episode, number 342 of this week in WordPress. We drone on about WordPress. Actually, today it's gonna be a little bit of WordPress and quite a lot of ai, most of it related. To WordPress. Seemingly I can't get away from the WordPress news.

They seem to be absolutely combined together at the moment. we normally do this at 2:00 PM UK time. That's indeed the time that we're doing it now. Stick it in your calendar if you like. and we'll be back each and every week pretty much. There is a, slight hiatus coming up because, I'm sure many other panel today we'll be heading to work.

Camp us in a few weeks time, and so we'll take a week or two off for that, but usually, it's 2:00 PM UK time on a Monday. And, yeah, really appreciate having you here. If you wanna participate in the comments that really keeps the show rolling. It's a really nice way of getting a, litmus test on what people are thinking.

And, it enables us to chat around what your comments are and things like that. The best way to do that is to head to our website. You go to wp builds.com/live, and over there the video is embedded and the, there's a little box on the right hand side if you're on a desktop and it's below the screen, the video screen if you're on, mobile, and that is YouTube comments.

So you need to be logged into Google. That's wp builds.com/live. However. If you don't like Google, you don't have a Google account, you can click the little live chat button at the top right of the video player. And if you click that, you don't have to be logged into anything. You just pop your name in and, the video platform that we use to do this is called Wave.

It will consume the comments and and we'll, know all about you. So yeah, head there, wp builds.com/live. Tweet it to your friends relations cousins, Guinea pigs, aunts, STOs, weasels, and badgers, but only those animals, any others. No chance. Don't bother. thanks Michelle, appreciate that. The, the panel today, as you can see, we've got three other people joining us as always.

you've been on an awful lot lately, Michelle, and I'm extremely grateful for that fact. I really, last, week was interesting because I woke up to the announcement that I was on the show and I hadn't even registered for it. Yeah, And yet somehow the calendar said I was, no, you're on the show.

I think the a AI got involved and it was like, it's. It's, Michelle's on the show. let's put her me's I'm just gonna include her and see if she shows up. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Anyway, I appreciate you being here. Once again, my, there obviously me in the drawer, in the image there, there's Michelle Ette.

She is the executive director of Post Status. In addition to the work over there, Michelle is also the podcast barista at WP Coffee Talk. Co-founded underrepresented in Tech, WP Speakers, and also the creator of WP Career Pages. co-founder of Sponsor me, WP and Speed Network online, and we'll find out about something more in a moment.

But in addition to all that, she likes to write, so is an author influencer and a frequent organizer and speaker at WordPress and tech events living outside of Rochester, New York. She likes to take nature photographs and the one URL, which combines them all is Meet Michelle Dot. Online meet Michelle online, and from here we can see the weather where you are currently.

'cause Michelle put in a comment, it is a balmy 78 degrees Fahrenheit or 26 degrees centigrade. you stay, yeah, that's pretty warm. Yeah, I mean it's 9:00 AM it's only gonna get hotter. Yeah. Yeah. That's where I live. If it gets to 26, it's been a profoundly hot day. We don't often get that hot in all honesty.

[00:06:56] Michelle Frechette: Oh. It'll be 32 today for those of you who pay attention to, so no, We don't. We don't want that. okay. The next one is, the next comment is Andrew Palmer and I might as well put his comment up and read out his bio at the same time. There is Andrew. Hello Andrew. How are you doing?

[00:07:11] Andrew Palmer: Hello. Hello. Andrew is heading up the sales to the DIFM market. What does that mean? I never know what. Do it for me. Do it for me. I thought it do it for me. Yeah. That's what it do it for. Hosts basically don't have a do it for me opportunity. We allow them to have that opportunity. Got it. Got it. Okay.

[00:07:29] Nathan Wrigley: Let me start that again. Andrew is heading up the sale, up sales to the Do it for me market for WordPress website host, and is an avid follower of all things WordPress. He talks about ai, web and cooking as he used to be a chef amongst other things. Missed from that bio though, is what you can see underneath his name on the screen.

Andrew currently works with Terri. I'm sure you know what Terim is. If, not, then go and check it out. terim.io is the url. Yes. My job to let people know what Terim io is. Yeah. We've got a piece coming up. You can explain a little bit about that as well as some new feature it looks or new. I don't know what to say about that.

You can explain it all to us in a moment. Moment. Thank you very much. And last but by no means least over there, Rob CAIRs coming from, a cruise ship or not? No. Yeah, Rob is the co-founder, sorry, is the founder and CEO of stunning digital marketing. He also hosts the SDM Show podcast. In his spare time, he likes sports and touring around with his partner Tiz, and he is just come back from a nice, long holiday by the sounds of it, quite jealous.

[00:08:34] Rob Cairns: We were in Italy for 10 days and I don't wanna be home. So there you go. Yeah. The same. Yeah, that's the backdrop is like continuing on. Yeah. Lot, lots of wine and lots of good food and lots of wonderful just family and it was great holidays. I think the Italians do culture pretty well. That's my take on it anyway.

[00:08:56] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, Andrew's nodding, he says he, Andrew says he doesn't know what the temperature is, but it's not hot. However, it's sunny in Charlotte, says Ryan. Hello Ryan. Nice to have you with us. Influence WP. There. Marcus spin joining us as well. Happiest of Mondays from the middle of the Sunshine State, Florida.

Always a joy to see these wonderful people to start. Hey Marcus, your card game. Got, for some reason, I've closed the link and I can't now find it. Do you have, can you post the link into your card game? 'cause I wanted to feature it and then somehow in I don't know, about 10 minutes before the show started, I, lost it.

I'd put it up. I've lost it and I can't now retrieve it and my history is not working properly. So if you wouldn't mind, I'd be really grateful about that. and Jackson is joining us. C Chao. There you go. He's right where you were chow from a baking southern Italian. It was hot. Yeah, I get it. It does like a bit of Italian.

[00:09:52] Andrew Palmer: Does that Jackson? Yeah. It was shockingly Italian in fact. Yeah. Okay. There's our panel. thank you very much for joining us. Really appreciate it. As I said, keep the comments coming in. Yeah. Really love it. Very, much indeed. Oh, and Michelle has got us the logo, the, what you, we call it the link.

[00:10:10] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. The URL for that. In fact, I'm gonna do that. Why not? Let's just do that. Let's do it first, as Marcus is in the comments, Marcus has come up with a card game, a WaPo card game that, it, it's called a very, Pokemon ish, I think, Yeah. Very Pokemon ish. Here it is on the screen. I love it. So the, URL is, the WP.

World, slash product. And then the card game is all, hyphenate. So the words is unleash the WaPo card game. You have to go to that URL, I'm sure you can probably Google it at this point. It's in the, if you just click the shop, you'll find that it's right there, just here. Perfect. Okay. And, it sounds like from Marcus's point of view, it sounds like it's, there's a bit of presale going on because I've read a tweet, I think that you put out Marcus, basically saying that you're at that point where you wanna, get the first pack from the, manufacturer and check out the quality and what have you. But the idea has been. Figured, I guess you just now want to know whether or not the quality of the, actual merchandise that you're gonna get is worth it.

But look, here it is. The first I didn't know, I can't tell you that there's any other game in the WordPress space like this. So it's called Unleash the WaPo. It's on sale at the moment if you wanna do a pre-sale, 34 point 99. And it said build your dashboard with lovable wapos and powerful plugins. Then sabotage your friends with malware and functions in this chaotic 108 card community field strategy game.

I can't say more than that 'cause I haven't caught sight of it yet. But, gotta say he's supposed to. He is supposed to receive the prototype today. Yeah. we'll, I'm sure he'll be sharing more information with us once he is able to. he, hopefully he'll bring it to WordCamp, us. There was a card game done by Angry Creative.

Oh, wasn't it? In this company, did the WordPress card game, but it's not anything, doesn't look as anything as fun as this, for sure. There you go. That's the picture I want actually. So the, representation here, maybe this Marcus has put this together or this has come from in the company that I'm making.

It looks really, it looks like a totally legit. a game that you'd buy in a store. So first of all, Bravo Omar. 'cause I hope it sells well. the WP world. And then there's a link in the top right on the top menu near the far right of that menu. It's called Shop. And if you go there, the basically, one of those items.

There it is. Look, unleash the WaPo card game. You can get yourself early access. I already ordered mine. Absolutely. He'll be bringing it to Word Camp US for me. Yes. Oh, nice. I'm very excited. Okay. So if you're gonna be going to Word Camp us, you may be able to get it from the founder in person anyway. Bravo.

I can only imagine that. That kind of thing is an awful. A lot of work to put together. I wonder if he does cash. Marcus, do you do cash? Yeah. Yeah. Brings we like a bit of cash in the uk, the word camp us and, get you a copy. Yeah. He's gonna come with a trolley load of the card games and try and hawk them in the sponsor stall.

That'd be good. Okay, let's get onto what we're doing over here. this is us wp builds.com. If you like what we're doing, you just wanna be kept up to date. Just put your email address in there and we'll send you a couple of emails each week. mainly what we do is this show plus a, podcast, which comes out on a Thursday.

This is what that podcast looks like. The most recent one was with, Robert Abella from me press. That was four 30. It was all about his new user roles and management plugin, which enables you to granularly set what different users can do and allow them and disallow them to do various different bits and pieces.

So that's the most recent episode, however. we do some other stuff as well. And one of the things that I do fairly frequently is probably like every six to eight weeks, something like that, is I get on a video call with, a lovely chap from the US called Joe Dolson, and he's an accessibility. his area is accessibility, is a WordPress core, committer core contributor.

And, and we go through different bits of WordPress websites and he pull teases out the bits of accessibility that he thinks could do with a bit of improvement. It was a bit of dog food, eating my own dog food this time. 'cause I put up one of my sites, it's called the no Script Show. So if you fancy having a look at that, you can see, it, really isn't me that does that site.

It's my friend David Walmsley. I'm part of the podcast, but he's responsible for the site. And, because there were no, wave errors, there were no automated errors, Joe really had to dig into the weeds and find all of the different bits and pieces. So it was really interesting if you pass the tests.

There's still an absolute boatload of things that you can take a look at, so go check that out. You find that by going to the archives and then click accessibility show archive just there. And it was episode number seven. I'm nearly done with the self promotional bit. I'm sorry it's quite long.

I sat down with Adam Silverstein at WordCamp Europe. He is a Googler, honestly. Some podcast episodes are just from my point of view, they're just really interesting. It goes without saying that I have my proclivities for what I enjoy as much as anybody else. This one just hit me Ri, I just thought this was brilliant.

This, he works at Google, he's part of the team which kind of help build the browsers and things like that. So Chrome and he's talking about all the different things that are coming into the browsers so that you don't have to use JavaScript anymore. Things like carousels and all this other stuff, which is coming, honestly.

It is. It was really interesting. If you build websites and you relying on JavaScript libraries to do this, that and the other, there is a chance the browser soon will be doing it. And he talks about all of that and it's really interesting. and last one. Very last one. Dan, maybe, and I, Dan maybe mostly me really just hanging on his coattails.

We've got a, a plugin that we're beta testing at the moment. It's called Podcaster Plus, and it's a block solution for building podcast pages and players and things like that. And, and we're looking for people to be, to test it. and if you fancy that, if you've got like an audio based like podcast show, something like that, you're right in our target hairs.

podcaster plus.com/beta if you'd like to be a part of that. And the idea is that you chuck in a bunch of blocks. Each part of the podcast player is a separate block, so the play button is a block. The skip backwards is a block, the skip forwards is a block. all of those things. So you can build a player any which way you like.

it's really lovely. It's honestly, I've never come across anything. Like it, there isn't a thing like it as far as I know, and you really can tailor something to your needs. if you've got like a heavy metal grunge podcast or something, you can really lean in on that aesthetic. Or if you just want something straightforward and obvious, but we're very much beta.

It's there are things that are janky and go wrong, but we'd like some testing. So podcaster plus.com/beater, if you want help us out. I'd really appreciate it. Thank you. Okay. That is all my self-promotion. Should we go to the comments before we dig into the actual content? Very sure. Alrighty.

Alrightyy. So Jackson saying hello. Oh, Tammy List is joining us. Ah, no, she says thank you Tammy. Lawrence Laie is saying hello and he's saying chow. Marcus is here. He's talking about the, the game. I guess the link I posted is, yeah, it actually has its own, it has its own, website, which I.

[00:17:21] Michelle Frechette: Neglected to find. Oh, just unleash the wapo.com. Okay. That's a lot by Michelle. Keep up. Whatcha doing? What the heck? Honestly, it's going in the chat right now. There you go. Yeah. That's trying. Yeah, it does. Yeah. I like it. so we'll make sure that goes into the show notes as well. oh, and he says he is happy to take cash, bring the cash. Get your game. There we go. That's nice. One outta a few. Yeah, yeah, Tax free. apologies, correcting, but doesn't he no longer work at Google? he, when I spoke to him, he worked at Google. He may no longer work at Google, so that could be, yeah, you could be right.

[00:17:57] Nathan Wrigley: I think we're talking about Adam there. Perhaps he doesn't work at Google anymore. looking forward to WordCamp us over here. Tammy, have you, gone to America now? You said I think that you were going for a period of time or something. Have you got there already? Okie dokie. Let's dig into what our guests have bought.

Michelle came up with an idea recently that was why not do the guest content first, that way it doesn't get, like squashed towards the end. And so the first piece is something that Michelle has bought, over to you, Michelle WP includes. Yeah. So WP includes.me, was launched about a year and a half ago by Francesca Murano and, Sivan.

[00:18:35] Michelle Frechette: I'm sorry, Shahan, I just forgot your last name. anyway, Keith McCowen. McCowen. Thank you. Yes, McEwen. yeah. And then, yeah, I do. And then, also DT is part of the organizers and, we are getting ready to launch. Actually, we have launched for the next, cohort. And the beautiful thing about it is I am now the program director for WP Includes Do Me?

Yep. I work about one day a week on this project and help keep it moving forward. So there, if you scroll down, you'll see the founders are right there. Yeah. There we go. So yes, Jamen, Francesca Mardo, and DTL. And they have entrusted me with, keeping the project moving forward. They are absolutely my bosses and I go to them for information and approvals, but they, are just encouraging me to continue moving forward with it quickly.

And we've added some things to the website, like you can see some testimonials there. and then if you go to the news section, of course you'll find a way the announcement of, joining this is entirely for women and women identifying people. This is women mentoring women in WordPress. If you are somebody who has time to give and wants to help the next generation of women grow up in WordPress and find those C-Suite directorship level positions, this is a great way to be involved.

If you are somebody who wants to climb the ladder within your organization or within WordPress itself or other organizations looking for a job, this is a great place to, to join. I did my first mentorship last term and had a wonderful experience with, Tani Perez, who is in Brazil. And so she and I met frequently and helped, her understand and grow a little bit in the WordPress community.

It's a very exciting thing to be a part of. Nice. The URL is on the screen, but for those of you who are listening to this as audio, which is most of you, in all honesty, that'll be tomorrow. WP includes.me is the url, and you can find out more if, one thing I would say is that, Francesca got married recently.

[00:20:39] Andrew Palmer: I think we're talking about She did, and she's, she did, she's now at Patch Stack rather than x WP, I think, isn't she? She is. Yep. She's at Patch Stack and I believe so is Shavan. Oh, okay. It's like a whole patch stack thing. They're all moving. very open person, very willing to, share and be kind and everything.

And I think that's what it's all about, isn't it, Michelle? Really just sharing. It's and getting, I think she's part of, we'll, mention it in a minute properly, but I think she's part of Loop Comp as well. That is, Shavonne. not, Francesca. I think so. At least. Anyway, so the URLs on the screen, but once or more WP includes me is the page.

[00:21:17] Nathan Wrigley: you can go to that, but Michelle's also bought another one. somebody teach. So this is newest thing. Yes. So I remember back to being a first time word camp attendee. And even though it was a smaller local camp, I was a little overwhelmed, but then my next camp was, word Camp us the very first one.

[00:21:38] Michelle Frechette: And suddenly I was somebody in a group of over a thousand people, none of whom I knew outside of seeing them on Twitter and things like that. And it was very overwhelming. And I'm an outgoing person and I still was like, am I in the right place? Do I belong here? and so I know that there's other people who feel that same way.

And so I decided, wouldn't it be cool to set up like a big brother, big sister type program, for people who are attending their first flagship Word camp, keeping it to flagships right now because I'm running this all by myself and as we know, I'm a busy person, so I need to control it at least to begin, see how it works.

And then, So the idea is you can sign up to be a, a veteran attendee or a new slash newer attendee. So you don't, it doesn't have to be your first ever word camp, but it needs to at least be your first flagship word camp. And if you're a little bit like, gosh, wouldn't it be nice if I knew somebody before I even got there?

This is a great place to sign up. It's free for everybody. Nobody's getting paid. I'm not getting paid. It's just simply pairing people up a week before Word Camp so that you have somebody to talk to, somebody to touch base with while you're there, somebody to ask questions of. And we've got two newer attendees who are already signed up, and eight, I think eight, veterans.

So I need more new people to sign up if you're interested in, matching up with somebody. Otherwise, it's a little unbalanced, but I think it's gonna grow and I'm really excited about, matching people up and giving somebody an opportunity to know somebody before they get there. The only asks are that you be in touch with each other before the event that you meet at registration, to introduce yourselves and have at least one lunch together while you're there.

Those are the expectations. Of course, it's in your hands. You can do what you want. But that's, what I ask of people. And then if there's any other possibility of sitting in on a session together and just shepherding somebody through, I think that's, that would be a really good thing.

[00:23:42] Nathan Wrigley: Well, a nice idea. So it's gonna, you're gonna trial it. From now until, WordCamp US is gonna be the first one, which is happening in just Yep. Really a few weeks now. three, four weeks, something like that. And, go and fill out the form. It's on the website. It is the URL is wp trail bodies.wordpress.com.

Wp trail bodies.wordpress.com. I'll put the link in the show notes. Yeah. I didn't really wanna register another URL and posting all of the things. So Yeah. Another why not use one of our resources. Yeah. Another single domain thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. So there it is. Have a little look at that, especially if you are gonna be attending that event and you have an intuition that is something that you could help out with or make use of.

I think we've got a few more comments coming in. Ah, just a few people talking amongst themselves and saying hi to each other. That's quite nice. But we have one here. Vladimir, I'm not gonna try your surname. Yeah, I am Melanie Chenko. I apologize for that. I've probably just butchered it. He's saying hello from Finland.

It's sunny in Helsinki. Very nice to have you with us. Okay. Let us move on. We will move on. In that case, Andrew Palmer's brought a couple of things to our attention. This is new, or at least I think it's new. terim io slash early dash access terim io slash early hyphen access. What's this? This is, a pivot.

[00:25:04] Andrew Palmer: This is basically bringing Atri into AI rather than the other way around AI into atri. We've got six team members that, will keep you company. We basically hit the review button when you are just about ready to launch. And you've got Lexi, who's your pedantic, secretarial type of person who will proofread everything and make sure that you are all, happy with the, brand voice and everything.

You've got Index, who's the SEO guy? You've got Glitch. Who's going to pick up all your mistakes? You've got nice naming, who's your ui UX designer? and, a couple of others. I can't remember. Yeah, so that's brand new. I'm so green with ai. Like I talk about it and we're gonna talk a lot about it later, but I really don't.

[00:25:49] Nathan Wrigley: Actually make much use of it personally. Can I just ask a, fairly dumb question about that? Yeah. Do, these teams have, do they basically stay on so that if I was to come back like a week later and try to pick up the conversation where I left off? Do you know whether it does that kind of, I think it's got, it certainly does.

[00:26:08] Andrew Palmer: So what happens is you do a review and the little stars are like comments. Atum is a commenting system. Yeah. Closes the communication loop between developers and their clients. The stars are on there. The developer does a review. it searches 2,500 queries, because Vito was involved in birth ai.

So from then he got the, yeah, he got the prompt writing bug. And, we've got a full on team that's working on AI at the moment. we've got, so they're all agents. They're age. So if you, accept their comments, you can then converse with them. So you can say index. I don't, like that CTA that you've just suggested.

You've, criticized my CTA, but so what's a better one? But I don't like your one. And then, and, Index will go out and look in the SERPs and go, okay, we'll try this one. pixel will tell you that your ui, ux is, a bit m up may, maybe a bit of CSS is gone. And Navi will help you with accessibility.

is your, ally, basically. And that will tell you about accessibility issues that you've got, that you've got no aria, it doesn't tab right or anything like that. So they all talk to each other when they're doing the review of each page. And then you can talk to them and have a conversation with them.

And you can actually ask at Lexi, if I did that CTA, would that still be within my brand voice? And Lexi would go. Yes or no? Yeah. So the fact that this has got a request, early access button, instead of saying, submit or whatever it might normally say over, you might see something. Say again, just mouse over, over the, so to just to put your name in there in, say first name or something.

There go. Yeah, it says here limited to the first 5,000 sign ops. So Yeah, but if you, click on the first name, there might be an animation that comes up. it's not coming up normally there's, a just a little, they've, we've got characters basically. Oh, I see. got it. I can't share, I can't share my screen.

I could show you the characters, but I have, I've got a browser which tries to I don't know, in insulate before stop little stop third party script. Yeah. Things. Yeah. But anyway, so we've got, they're all, there's six characters, six agents, six of, your fellow team workers. And they will either comment or not.

You can, invoke them. Once you've invoked them, you accept their, comment as a task. And then you can continue the conversation. Add infinit. Even when you close, the browser down on that collaboration link. Does this bind to do I need to have an utter interim? Paid up account to get this going?

[00:28:43] Nathan Wrigley: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, of course. Yeah. It's a premium, it's obviously, it's a premium because you've got lots of agents dealing with you. But yeah, it's a premium account. And, pricing will be announced in the next two or three weeks. okay. But we're looking to supply, we're looking to get 5,000 people on there.

[00:28:59] Andrew Palmer: It's nearly full actually. if, you wanna sign up for early access, get it, you get free agents, you get, this is, basically a sample, so you'll get free agents, but we need the feedback because ATRI has always been built with feedback. So atri.io/early hyphen access, if you wanna find out about the creative team over there, check it out.

[00:29:21] Nathan Wrigley: and if you wanna get part of the FI first 5,000, then go there quickly. And what else have we got? This, is just you've had a bit of a play with your personal website, because I've been. On a lot of podcasts and people ask my history, and I've got a very, like Michelle, I've been very, busy and, my bio could be five pages long and I just thought, no, I don't wanna do that.

[00:29:45] Andrew Palmer: Want it two, two lines long. So when somebody on a podcast, asks me what I've been up to or how I started, or what's my backstory or whatever, I just point them to this and it's, but basically I, I rewrote it only last week because I thought I could not have done any of this without the community supporting me to do it.

Nice. So now it's more thanks to the community. Thanks community. I really love you and you've really helped me buy a car and put my daughter through school and all this kind of stuff and, travel the world. I've traveled the world with WordPress and I'm very grateful for it, but I could not have done it without people buying my various products from elegant marketplace to layouts cloud, to page builder, cloud to whatever it may be.

So it's just a, basically it's a, post of gratitude up there that's say, this isn't all me. we can't make it on our own. There's always, whenever somebody says they're self-made. That's bs as far as I'm concerned. I've never met a self-made person that hasn't had a little hand up from someone.

And so I just thought I'd make it a bit more real. It's not all me. I, I know that Stephanie Hudson, but she says, hi, by the way. Morning friends. And then, she's, right in there. Look that only Andrew would bring his own site. what was the reason behind it? Yeah. Yeah, there was, it was lovely.

[00:31:09] Nathan Wrigley: I think that's quite a nice hap tip to the community. That's really lovely. Elliot is joining us from Briton. Hello. And then we've got somebody, ym Valerio. Hello as well. Nice to have you with us. Really nice. so that one is, this is andrew palmer.com. Oh, cool. This is andrew palmer.com and, there's a, another one here.

Which is, and Andrew Palmer brought this one, but it's not, one of his own sort of, terim or his own website. This is, the upcoming WordPress meetings. It ties into what you were talking about a minute ago, being a part of the community and what have you. Yeah, I recently rejoined make.wordpress.org, and I'm astounded by how much goes into my WordPress work.

[00:31:55] Andrew Palmer: Yeah, it's mad. it is absolutely mad. So I just wanted to bring people's attention to the fact that all of these meetings go on. All of the time, and without them we wouldn't have a WordPress. It's that simple. it's just an, incredible amount of people involved in an incredible amount, of diverse things that are happening in WordPress.

from AI to core, to the plugin team, to the diversity team, to the ALI team, to everybody. It's just incredible. what, a facility. That wordpress.org is, it's crazy. yeah, again, another gratitude post really. I don't really, that's very sounding very American of me, being British, we don't normally go, oh yeah, I'm full of gratitude, but I am, I'm genuinely full of gratitude to the fact that we have a wordpress.org.

It's crazy. This is, I, confess it, it is been many years since I went to any URL, which looked like this calendar. But if you go to make.wordpress.org/meetings, and basically it's a calendar interface for those of you that can't see it, it's like a weekly calendar with various different, rectangles on each representing a different meeting that's happening.

[00:33:10] Nathan Wrigley: And in some cases it may be as many as, I dunno, eight or nine things. Wednesdays seem to be there. busy day, in most weeks. But then Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, there's stuff going on. Everybody seems to take the weekend off, which is nice. But, it really does give you an impression of what's, what you could get involved with.

as an example, open verse, is gonna be happening later today. There's gonna be a weekly chat about that tomorrow. The training team, documentation, team performance, team accessibility, bug scrub, tied weekly chat, and then there's a core privacy one. And, on it goes, and, and I think you're right Andrew.

This stuff just goes under the radar, doesn't it? Yeah. There's not a lot of shouting from the rooftops, from any of these teams, because that's and I think there should be, I think we've gotta, we've gotta make sure that we know within the community. What actually it takes to be part of this community.

[00:34:03] Andrew Palmer: And it's just, we, I wanna steer away from negativity, steer to the positivity and make sure that people know what it act what.org actually offers you. It's crazy. Yeah, it is crazy. It's a crazy amount of information, crazy amount of learning. and also you can get involved in anything.

You don't have to be a coder. You just, have to care about WordPress. I'm looking at ways to free my time up, make sure that I'm, I can, contribute in some way I'm going to contribute as day at, WordCamp us, which is good. And we're a SaaS, I work for a SaaS company. Yes, we started off in WordPress, if there's any way that you can contribute to WordPress.

Do it. Why not? Tammy makes the point. it actually hasn't come up yet inside the platform. Oh no. There we go. It's just coming, that each team posts these on their own blogs. Yeah, the, I guess the thing about that, Tammy, is you always end up like looking at one thing, don't you? Whereas this, screen that Andrew shared, I should probably take that little nag prompt thing off there.

[00:35:06] Nathan Wrigley: it really sums it up as how much is going on, which I haven't really thought about before until I saw it in that sort of weekly layout. It gives you a real impression of what's going on and there's absolutely loads. But Tammy's right. Each team posts these bits and pieces on their own blogs and, yeah, find out more.

Click on the links in there. Once more, make wordpress.org/meetings. Thank you, Andrew. That was nice. Very philanthropic. you have brought another one as well, which I was probably gonna bring anyway, so this kind of is both of us at the same time. I think really, contribute today, now. Contributor today is, something which is bolted on to a WordPress event.

Very often a Word camp will have a contributor day where you go and you sit at a table and see if you can help in some aspect of the project. it's on the 17th of September for word. This is actually the 20 24 1. I've clicked on the wrong one here. I dunno. Correct. How I've ended up on, I thought, oh my God, I've got the wrong ticket.

No, I dunno if it's you. I think I have, simply clicked on the wrong link, so ignore that. but basically there's gonna be a contributor day for this word camp us coming up as well. It's obviously gonna be in August, not September, 2020. Do you replace that five with four? With a five? You should get simple as that.

Yeah. I was thinking that would work, but I wasn't a hundred percent sure that it would. So let's see if that works. Give it a go. Look at that. yeah, it does. so there you go. 26th of August, and it's starting at 9:00 AM inside the conference center. But you, were saying from this, that you think it's a bit of a different ball game this time around?

No, it's, I heard. And I can't remember where I heard it from, but I read it. I didn't hear it. I read it. that, that it's gonna be more of a hackathon type feel. So almost like a, it actually there. Do you remember what there a cloud fest where they made it almost like a little competition. But I think it's gonna be more, more based on a hackathon.

[00:36:57] Andrew Palmer: So you've got some targets and you've got some incentives and all that kind of stuff, but I don't think it's gonna be exactly like the cloud factor. No, I guess, given the fact it's basically it gets people incentivized a bit more if it feels like a little bit of a yay, our table one or whatever it may be.

Yeah. So I went to the cloud first hackathon, in Germany a few months ago, and it was really quite interesting 'cause there's this whole kind of everybody sat down, they had their own little project with goals in mind. The goals were clearly stated before the thing started. So it wasn't just sit down, see what you can find, see what suits you.

[00:37:31] Nathan Wrigley: It was more, if you're at, if you nominate to sit at this table, this is what we're doing. We're gonna marshal all the resources to get to this goal. That's, and then at the end everybody sums up whether they got to that goal, whether they pivoted, and so on. And so it's a real, it's. There's this competition nature to it.

And, it is, it's very different. And I think it's, I think it, it's, dare I say it, I think it's more purposeful, not more purposeful, but it has a different purpose. it does, but if you remember at Cloud Fest, even though you are at another table doing something else, you, wandered to other tables and helped them out with that as well.

[00:38:08] Andrew Palmer: If you had the solution, there was an MCP table, there was an a IT table for accessibility, and they just all wandered about and saying, we've done this over there, maybe that would help, or We've done this over here that maybe this would help. And they went, went, you wandered around the tables.

But it was a, like Stephanie says, it's a vibe, you know it, yeah. It's just a vi It gives a great vibe off. But yeah, I think they're asking for tables to, or people, people to join tables for particular things to do for make, if you. If you go to the url, so it's, it's a lot for me to say, but I'll say it.

[00:38:42] Nathan Wrigley: So it's us do wordcamp.org/ 2025, the number, the numerals slash contributor dash day. I'll put the link in the show notes, which will come out tomorrow. if you just, you read more about it there. If you put in WC US 2025 Yeah. And follow the links. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, go with that. But I'll make sure that it's in the show notes in some way.

And it definitely says it. It says, this is an all day hackathon, a networking event. Various, then since I lost it, various existing contributors work on specific projects for folks new to contributing. It's a wonderful opportunity to visit different teams of Zerb and potentially big begin contributing.

Let's see. I shall be there and that's why I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna be there as well. Let's find out what it's like. We can just talk. Okay. Rob, did you have anything, on your little roster or shall we press into our word pressy stuff? No, I am pretty good these days. the only thing I wanna announce if I don't, if I can, is my podcast is coming up on episode 600 days.

Oh, it's a big one. Wow. Congratulations. That's if you did it every day, that's like nearly two years. Yeah, it's actually, it's been, I started it at the start of COVID, so it's been like five and a half years. But you're busting them out. It's, that is, that's incredible. SDM podcast, we mentioned the links at the beginning in the bio, but if you go and Google SDM, the, letters SDM podcast, then no doubt you can find it.

So when does 600 drop roughly? If you don't know exactly. Sometime in August. Nice. It looks like, six hundred's going to be a montage of videos. Oh, nice. With the last video from somebody pretty special not knowing in the workplace. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Alright. yeah. I wonder, can I just say, if you're fancy testing out a podcast plugin, you can, podcast the plus com pizza.

[00:40:46] Rob Cairns: I'm already, I'm, already, on the list just with vacation. I haven't had Chance Implement, but it's honestly holidays in Italy. It's fine. I think you got, past totally fine. that would be great. That would be lovely. Anyway, there we go. there we go. Check that out. 600. Boy, that's impressive.

[00:41:05] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you very much. Thank you. All right, let's get into the normal run of events. So we were talking about Shavonne earlier and the things that she's doing, but this is another thing which I think Shavonne is involved in, if I've got that wrong. I apologize, Shavonne. But, this is Luko. It is an in-person event happening in, UK in September.

It's a one day event. It is the 25th of September. It's happening, in, right in the heart of London. The, venue's all been organized and what have you, and they are selling tickets. The early bird ones, according to what I can see here, have sold out. So they were marked at 2 9 9. but if you're in the UK or Indeed are flying in, you can still pick up ones for 3, 4, 9.

Again, 25th of September. Just as a corollary to that, because the date overlapped with what we do at W-P-L-D-N, what we've done is we've moved, I think I mentioned this last week, we've moved W-P-L-D-N, so the night before. So if you so wished you could go to W-P-L-D-N on what is a Wednesday, and then the following day you could attend this event.

Obviously you may have other plans, but that's now the two don't conflict, which is quite nice now. So we sh we shoved it along, one day early, so hopefully you can come along to that as well. Okay? Okay. Okay. Okay. Stephanie, it is a, podcast plugin that I'm building. I'm not really, I'm, I just hang out and help, but, in, in theory it's me and Dan, maybe, if you want to DM me, I'll, let you know how to get signed up for the beta test.

It's pretty cool. At least I think it is. But, yeah, there you. Okay. Loop column. Just a little note on Stephanie. That, little last sentence she used, that's her non de plume. I'm just a little bit late. What's, what do you mean? It's what she, that's her common. Oh, okay. Non D plume. I'm just a bit late.

[00:42:59] Andrew Palmer: Okay. Okay. luko.com. There you go. You can check by Michelle. Got it. Right now it's your pet name. Yes. This one. equalized Digital. I dunno if Amber Hines. Hines and various other people make up Equalized Digital and they put this article out a few days ago, which, is I just thought was nice to give a bit of recognition.

[00:43:18] Nathan Wrigley: I think a lot of accessibility work goes on in the background. A lot of people, keeping WordPress itself core update and what have you, and and they don't often shout about it. You don't really read too many articles where they say, I did this for WordPress's accessibility. But, given the size of what's been going on, I think Equalized Digital are doing the right thing.

They're making their, I don't know, they're making their contributions known. So this piece is called Making 7 million E-Commerce websites more accessible. Equalized Digital's role in enhancing WooCommerce core and extensions and. it does basically, exactly that. I'll just read you the first paragraph, which gives you some influence, some idea of what's going on.

Over the past year, our team partnered closely with WooCommerce core developers, alongside other agencies like Fueled and 10 Op, to deliver more than 140 accessibility, improvements to the word WooCommerce, core plugin. These upstate represent a significant step forward for merchant developers and shoppers alike, and if you're looking at the screen, you can see a breakdown of the various different bits and pieces.

It's a, reasonably long article, and I didn't really go into the weeds. I don't want to go into the weeds. It was me just saying, I think, it's great that you are. Blowing your own trumpet, if In this case, that sounds like I was being a bit churlish, but I didn't mean it that way.

I, just think it's really nice that a company like this, we've done a lot of work to promote, in this case, WooCommerce get to, get to shout about it. So I'm just gonna say a thank you, basically. I dunno if anybody else wants to comment on that, but, thank, we have the accessibility law in the eu, which doesn't affect people if they're five and below in agencies because for whatever reason it, again, going for the big boys, just like GDPR was aimed at the, people, Amazon and Facebook on all that kind of people.

[00:45:06] Andrew Palmer: 'cause you're big. but you can get fined an immense amount of money for not having the, your website accessible or trying to make it accessible, in EU since April, I think it came in. So it's very important that if you're building a WooCommerce website and it all suddenly blows up and you have 10 to 20 staff.

You have to be accessible there. There's no, you won't get away with it. it's a good thing that WooCommerce has done this, along with all the other agencies because it's, important for enter, if you notice the other agencies involved, Nathan, they're the enterprise 10 Up, yeah.

10 upfield Enterprise website. So it's important for them to invest in WooCommerce to make it more, accessible for sure. Because they, they're dealing with multimillion dollar companies. So I also that even though it's a core thing, the community's chipping into that and making it clear that's what they're doing as well.

[00:46:03] Nathan Wrigley: And it's not just one voice, it's not the Ians doing it all or whatever it may be. yeah. Really nice. Michelle or Rob, anything to add? Yeah, so you've already mentioned Joe Dolson as well in this podcast, and I will say that, between Joe and Amber and the companies that they represent.

[00:46:21] Michelle Frechette: They have, they are giving so much time, unsponsored unpaid time, not only to core, but also they are the driving force behi, along with Bet Hannon, who has shortcut, access-a cart. They're the driving force behind WP Accessibility Day as well, also, which they're not getting paid for. And so I just wanna, yes, it's wonderful that they can, raise their own flag here and talk about things that they're doing.

We all need to be talking about the things that they're doing as well, because they are putting so much time and effort and energy into helping make not only the web, but WordPress specifically more accessible for everyone. yeah, just wanted to throw that 2 cents in. Thank you, Rob, anything or should we move on?

[00:47:08] Rob Cairns: I, just agree with Michelle. Amber and Joe and company are so unselfish in this community and, generally really great people too. I think Michelle and I both know, and Andrew know them well, and, we're grateful to have 'em in our community. So it's, kudos. Yeah. I think being able to write a blog post where you trumpet what you've done, but without kind of trumpeting what you've done.

[00:47:32] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. It was quite a difficult skill. It's difficult to I don't know, mention what you've done without sounding boastful. And I think this pulls it off really well, and I just wanted to applaud them really for, Yeah. Let's, they also sponsor word camps, they're really invested in, in the community as a whole, and actually they're equalized Digital as a plugin is free, to a certain extent.

[00:47:55] Andrew Palmer: you, it's, a massive, it's in the repo. and, most w sites are actually not that accessible even with all the accessibility laws. so I'm glad to see them on this, this tangent too. A lot of woo sites are pretty, pretty bad actually. thanks. Thank you indeed.

[00:48:15] Nathan Wrigley: I'll put the link into the show notes. It's on Equalized Digital. The URL is too long to mention, but I'll, pop it into the show notes. But it's, it starts off making 7 million e-commerce websites more accessible. You can probably Google that and, discover it for yourself, but it goes into all of the different bits and pieces, how they did it, what the criteria are, and, what have you.

Go check it out. Okay. As, we're talking about accessibility. I'm gonna interrupt for just a second too. No, please do. I'm, putting it in, I'm putting another link in the chat. You don't have to pull it up if you don't want to, but I will say this year's T-shirt for WP Accessibility Day is lit. I am so excited about it.

[00:48:49] Michelle Frechette: Oh yeah. okay. The front of it features WPAD in American Sign Language, so you can actually see, what the letters look like. And then on the back is the alt text. Nice. Nicely done. So I had to share that. Oh, that is good. So that's, hang on, that's the front. Is it the story? Yes, the, you could maybe see the back.

[00:49:11] Nathan Wrigley: I don't know. Oh, there it is there. Yeah. Just hold on. I think you can see it. Great. You can see it, but that's great. Yeah. It does. Say what the, it says, alt WPAD, an American Sign Luggage on the front of a light blue T-shirt, which I thought, and can I just say, bravo to you for managing to squeeze the word lit into, in, I think, the first time in the show as, a 56-year-old, even, I was gonna say it's the first time any vocabulary in use under the age of a 40-year-old has been adopted.

well done. You age is the opposite of mine. How funny is that? And I, when she said lit, I just went, oh, dear God, I thought it was my, I have a 22, I have a 22-year-old daughter, so I'm very up on, I knew what she meant. I, I, language sitting down. at my dinner table the other day and one of my kids said that.

And so it got, we got into this whole conversation about the vocabulary that they use and they, rattled off. 'cause they, obviously probably don't tend to use words like that when they're in our environment. 'cause they know that it's gonna be like, what does that mean? They know that they're gonna get a pushback from us.

But the, they then started to reel all these words up and some of them are just so interesting. Yeah. And some of them carry such, there's so much, we dunno such power, and it's like a three letter word and it's like being punched in the gut metaphorically and honestly. Yes. You just go straight over my head.

It's really interesting. Anyway, there we go. There is the access lesson. I just thought it was cool. Thank you for accessibility teacher. Okay. Now we're gonna launch into what I imagine is probably gonna be the rest of the show. It's ai. Ai, yeah. we're not gonna be able to escape this very often.

I will go so. When I make this, IT trawl around all the RSS fees of all the things. And I find what's interesting, and usually there's one or two bits about AI in the more recent past that has been growing steadily to the point where now if you do what I do and you habituate and you really do look at the WordPress news, this now represents, I would say more than half of the content over the last two weeks has been about ai.

So I don't think this is going away. I, struggle to understand it because I don't make much use of it. But we're gonna spend quite a lot of time talking about ai. So if, that's your bag, strap in, please school me in the comments. If I say something dumb. I, I want to know because I, don't make much use of this, and so it's me really just trying to get a, an understanding of it and, what have you.

So first of all, I'm gonna link to three different articles, which are coming out of, make.wordpress.org. The first one is called Abilities API, oh, it's just occurred to me. Tammy's in the comment so she'll be able to help me out 'cause she's really good with this kind of stuff. so the first one is, abilities API by James LaPage.

Now these three things, I think work in concert with each other. Then Pascal Bula talking about the MCP adapter, and finally over on Make the AI Experiments plugin. Now, if I go back to the first one, the Abilities API, I think it's quite possible that this is the most important piece of news that I've read out on this show ever.

And I've been doing this for years. Because this suddenly turns WordPress into something that anything that's got to do with AI can get a hold of and start to understand what a WordPress website is capable of. Now, Andrew, in the past has been responsible for building er ai right at the forefront when frankly, I didn't even know that AI was even possible.

[00:53:10] Andrew Palmer: September, 2021, what was that, 2021, right? Yeah. I'm guessing May, 2021. Yeah, but I'm, guessing that a ton of custom code had to be written so that it could figure out what the heck a WordPress website was and now. Yeah, And yeah, exactly. But now we're on the cusp of, we've got an AI team, and it would appear that the endeavor in the short term is let us figure out a framework, for want of a better word, with the abilities API.

[00:53:41] Nathan Wrigley: Let's understand what a WordPress website can do. Let's, try to figure out everything that a WordPress website can do. But not only that, if you are a plugin developer, let's try to figure out a way that you can tell any AI system, be it clawed or anthropic or chat GPT or whatever comes along in the future, a method to tell it what your plugin is capable of.

So this unified way of doing it and the in the intention then, and I don't know how quickly this will come. Intention is to basically, as far as I can pause it, is to talk to your website in just normal language type sentences. Get things back like I wanna post, I want it to be scheduled, I wanna know about the SEO, I wanna featured image for it.

Do all these checks, make sure it's gonna work. And hopefully all of the this abilities API will, provide the framework for these ais to understand what different bits and pieces the AI can do. And although it sounded a bit glib at the beginning, like that seems to me a profound change in what WordPress is endeavoring to be.

It moving away from log into the WP admin, do your stuff, understand the plugin, learn what the plugin does, figure out the ins and outs of it, get frustrated, get bored, get ticked off. We are moving to a point where you just say. The AI now knows everything that plugin can do. Just talk to the ai, it'll figure it all out for you.

So that's my first bit on that. Does anybody wanna comment on that? I hope I didn't get that too wrong. no. I think, what you are, saying is right, but what, let's just, just say how crucial it was or how, what a baller move it was for automatic to buy James LaPage in this stuff.

[00:55:45] Andrew Palmer: Yeah. What a baller move. A baller move also to, to move away from, remote working and, whatever, the phrase is, to actually move the, this is why I came up with that phrase I was telling you about earlier, is because AI's moving at speed of light. Asynchronous working isn't good enough for AI these days.

And what they've realized automatically they've said, you are, you're all coming to New York and we're all gonna be there. And you can look over each other's shoulder. You can tap each other on the, shoulder. You can have the water cooler moments. You can have the physicality of being together to develop this ai.

That's how important I think automatic, have made, AI within their infrastructure of automatic by bringing James the page, Felix, our aunt, isn't it? He's onboarding that team. Those PAs together Yeah. Will, not necessarily put it into core. And that's why I think they're talking about, canonical plugins and stuff like that.

Yeah. But I think we will have, we'll have, AI in core in, in a not too distant couple of years minimum, because it's just so important to be able to, for Word Press, to compete against the bolts and, and the, lovable and all of the other platforms around there that actually can build apps and build websites on the fly.

I think it's very, it's important that WordPress, concentrates on that for, us mere mortals to be able to join, think, join up the dots, which is what, the abilities API does. And I think it's a phenomenal future we're looking forward to. Yeah. So I've been very, how I, think, skeptical is the, right word.

[00:57:35] Nathan Wrigley: May maybe even a little bit stronger than that. fairly skeptical. And I have variety of reasons for that. So obviously I'm getting called out a bit in the comments, which is fine. And it's fine. Nathan realizing right now that AI isn't going away. Tammy's calling us out all the time. So they're, so evidently the, AI team is in Google, not a automatically report.

[00:57:56] Andrew Palmer: so the AI team has a bunch of people and they are employed. They're gonna be in an office together in New York. James LaPage is one of them, but Felix is not an he's. Yeah. Yeah. I'm generally talking about the people involved, but certainly That's right, yeah. For people to come in, which is good.

And then, yeah, Stephanie here saying, Nathan says AI is a lit. Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. Okay. So here's the piece. Here's my sort of, here's the bit that I didn't get until just now. I didn't get what Automatic's position was. I just thought it was, I don't know, add a button to the editor somewhere that would make you be able to write text.

[00:58:35] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. This is all starting to make sense to me now. am I super excited about ai? Not really. Would I prefer a world without it? Honestly, if we could all just ignore it and move on, that would be my prefer. I'm a bit of a Luddite in that sense. I would love a world where we didn't have to be productive all the time.

That would be quite nice. I think in some ways we all hate the grind, right? Be quite nice if everybody was as lazy as I was. So I'm not entirely convinced that AI is in the best interest of everybody all the time. But the bit that I didn't get was this bit, I didn't get how it was gonna fit into ai.

I just imagined that you'd have to employ some third party service, pay for it, get it to communicate. They'd write custom code, you'd install a plugin, blah, blah, blah. More stuff. But this is making more sense to me now. It's all gonna be part of this kind of core. Abilities API and I hadn't got it. And I can only apologize.

[00:59:34] Rob Cairns: Na Nathan, can I jump in for a second? Yeah, please. He, mentioned a, comment about a world would be better with AI and you don't need to be product. Productivity all the time. And I think what you need to do in this world is, as entrepreneurs, we all need to take care of ourselves and our mental health.

And I'm gonna go there because even in a world of ai, it's moving so quick. We need to do things like I did last week and go on vacation. We need to do things where we step away from the screens. We need to do things where we read paper book and say, forget the ai, forget the life. We need to go sit in the backyard.

The, thing we gotta remember, and I know it's kind, it's worth mentioning, is in this high-paced world, we gotta make sure we take care of ourselves more than ever. And that's really, important. And I'm speaking from a guy who's been. In and out of counseling and therapy for years. It's just so part of my health regime.

So you folks like, don't let the AI get you down. Learn how to manage the tool and make your life better. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Thank you. No, that's, helpful. I appreciate that. Valid points. But I think that you said you were lazy. I You've never met a lazier person. He is not lazy.

[01:00:50] Andrew Palmer: no. Nathan. Nathan did. I'm inherently lazy. I would rather do nothing than something. I think what I was trying to, what I was trying to encapsulate there was more, wouldn't it be great if everybody was equally lazy? Yeah. But then we get nothing done. They, yeah. But, then if, if, nobody was getting anything done, we don't start, nobody would feel like, oh, that's weird.

[01:01:12] Nathan Wrigley: I wish I was doing more, it'd be kinda of nice if everybody bought into this philosophy. Yeah. That's not the case. Anyway. So that, that one written by James, the, sorry, Michelle, do you want add anything to that before I go on to the next one? I'm good. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Don't want this.

So, that was the first one. I think it's all been said. There's nothing that's, nothing this, oh, you've got something to add, Michelle. I'm sure I can get really, I can get really heated about it in all the wrong ways. And, so for, to be, for me to be excited about it is it's novel and I'm enjoying it.

and Tammy says something about that. She says, look, we can see the move away from begrudging to excitement. I dunno how long it's gonna last. Tammy, quarter past four. Oh, that's about, give it another hour and you'll probably all be over. But there's the first bit, the abilities API. Then we move on to this one.

Again, dropping on. So notice the date, 17th of July, 2025. This next piece, 17th of July, 2025. This third piece, 17th of July, 2025. Moving quickly. Speed. A light. Yeah. So this is the MCP adapt adapter. So the model context protocol is an open protocol that standardize how applications provide context to LLM.

So, imagine we've now done the ability bit, you can, the AI can now talk to, it can say what it can do and what it can't do and how things can be done. Then we go to the MCP adapter, which is almost like this kind of bridge between the two things. I, won't go into the detail there. And then now the kind of the real world experimentation piece, the bit where all of that rubber hits the road and now this stuff can happen.

And whilst AI for me has been very exciting, I've seen it going on elsewhere and it's been breathtaking, but I haven't. I haven't noticed it happening in core like this, and the fact that this team got employed and has very quickly turned around articles, which I can understand is really helpful. But honestly, I am so impressed with what that team has done, and I think that WordPress definitely there is a chance that it would get left behind with the AI revolution and all that's happening, but this makes me feel much more sanguine that future is not one that we need to worry too much about.

This AI team does seem to have shored that up a lot. I think I'll stop talking. you've got, the rest API. That was a, proper game changer, right? Rest, API. You got W-P-L-W-P-C-L-I. That was a game changer. When you join all of those dots together with what's happening with the MCP, what's happening with the experience plugin and what's, what this team is doing.

[01:03:55] Andrew Palmer: WordPress is going to be unstoppable. It's crazy how good it is. Now, I may seem over enthusiastic about this, but I love ai like in, in this context. I love ai. I love AI in other contexts, helping blind people to see, helping deaf people to hear, helping. Physically challenge people to, walk and talk and everything like that.

That's a part of AI that I love as well. But this, because it's in our world, is astounding. And also the stuff that we're doing with the, company that I currently work for is amazing. And it's, do you know what it is really though, Nathan? It's good fun. Oh, interesting. We haven't had fun in the WordPress community Yeah.

[01:04:41] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. For a couple of years, right? Yeah. So now we're gonna have fun. Let's have fun. Let's play with it. Let's experiment and let's just have a smile on our face while we're using WordPress. I think it's, I think it's awesome. And the nice bit is we now have clever pe clever, very clever, have thoughtful people dealing with it, so we don't have to Exactly.

We can just use it. You've ever, if you've ever spoken to James LaPage, I have involved. Nice guy. Yeah. Yeah, he's mindblowingly clever, but also has this ability of talking in lay speak. Yeah. Which is exactly what we need. Yeah. and he's, like, younger than my children. It's age. Age in the age of, I think he's, I think he's adding neur links since the age of three.

[01:05:30] Andrew Palmer: Anyway. So it's just the way it is. But it's also how humble these people are as well about their talent, about their intelligent, about their thought processes, about how they're getting there. And I think if you are too, if you are not humble with this, because with your humility, you realize the power of AI that's going to give.

Everybody within the community and the customers that we have as well. You realize that, that, but if you, don't keep, humble about it, you are going to expand too quickly, too fast, and you're gonna break things badly. So you have to have a little bit of humility about it. This is what we want to do, but we also need to do it in at a pace that we can keep up with and that other people on our users can keep up with as well.

And I think that's where it's valuable that these type of people have been involved. So I'm gonna link to those three articles in the show notes. Thank you. And a, couple of things came through these, are, I think, pretty much related to what Rob was saying, about taking care of yourself and all of that.

[01:06:35] Nathan Wrigley: sayi, I apologize, I'm not Shay, he's part, he's my team. He's on the, he's, he makes our videos. Oh, thank you. Okay. So I'm guessing it was in the context of that. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yep. And, Kami as well, Rob. Yes. We have to take care of ourselves as well, so that's, yeah, that's really nice.

and I dunno if Tammy's comment there, plus 100 was to, to reiterate as that came a little bit later. So there might be, about something else, but Okay. Let's keep on moving. 'cause the, AI train, as I said, is, is, definitely chugging. Yeah, it's definitely chugging. Go on. however, we're gonna move away from the core sort of stuff.

This. just drop with from Elementor. it's, it's called Angie. and honestly, I dunno anything about it other than this splash ring. I saw a tweet and I thought, Elementor really credible company. Let's mention it. So the headline goes like this, and this is pretty much all I know, Angie.

And they're making the claim that it's the first Agen AI plugin for WordPress. it says you lead Angie builds, publishes, updates, give it a task, and it goes to a, it sounds almost like some of the stuff we were talking with the Abilities API, but I'm guessing it's bound inside of Elemental. So obviously in Elemental, they know all the things already that they can do with their own code base.

So there's a few examples. Add a hero section to my website. You type that in, press go. It does it, launch your 15% sale across all products. You type it in, it does it. and then a whole variety of other stuff. All that we can know is that you can apply for early access at the moment. So there's a form on the page.

if you're Elementor user, I'm gonna say it's Elementor. Maybe it's not. this is what James LaPage was working on before, the sale tool. So it was WPA a i Uhhuh, and it was Nagen where you could basically go on the page and you could ask it to generate a, a featured image, post a blog, schedule, a blog.

[01:08:36] Andrew Palmer: Updated prices, all that kind of stuff. so now what's happened is a couple of months ago you couldn't have done this kind of stuff because I, AI wasn't capable of it, didn't recognize things, far back. So you could, now you've got the video. If you remember, the vid videos were really junky a couple of months ago now because it can, ha it has visual awareness.

You can now see the videos are getting really quite good. and it's the same thing with the, agents and the agent ais that come out just like the ais that we are coming out with as well. They can recognize things so they can look at an image and say, that's not great. Or that's not accessible or that doesn't, the colors aren't great or whatever it may be.

And this is just how fast we are moving with ai, giving us this ability to have these agents to do things for us within whatever. Platform we're using, that's where, we're gonna get faster at development, quicker at launching. Imagine you've got a black, say you've got a Black Friday sale going on and it ain't working, and it, and you've look, you've suddenly realized that your, competitors have updated their prices.

So there are, dollar less, you just. Pop into Angie and go change all our price. Take a dollar off all of our prices and do your one price to, to tell everybody, and also while you are at it, connect to my email marketing system and send out an email to everybody to say that we've reduced our prices by a dollar on this Black Friday thing.

And that's basically what's gonna start happening. So yeah, so this is the Elementor offering. As I say, I don't know if it steps outside of the bounds of Elementor. They're saying it's a plugin for WordPress. I feel that they would use different language. I don't know maybe where they would say work for Elementor if it was bound to Elementor.

[01:10:31] Nathan Wrigley: So we'll. But, anyway, it's there. and they're making the claim that it's the first one. However, I think it was, was it you, Michelle spotted that there was something similar? Was it you? Yes. The hosting. Hosting? again, I've not seen this one. I've just caught sight of it. Michelle sent me this link.

so this is hosting who, a host, in the WordPress space and elsewhere, I think. Which is also saying that it's your first agenda, chaos. I dunno if there needs to be a, fight between these two. Cody has a scrap with Angie. See who wins. but this, they may end up dating. You never know how Cody and Angie can be.

[01:11:09] Michelle Frechette: Great prize. No, that's too weird. no, We don't need that in our lives. What the heck? Oh, dear. but I, I feel just from looking at this page. This, is trying to be more, maybe more backend, I dunno, than the, other one, the Angie one looked a little bit more front end, like you would do everything in concert with being in the front end.

[01:11:32] Nathan Wrigley: This looks a bit more I dunno, you're in the dashboard. It's definitely dashboard side. Yeah. Trying to do things. Yeah. So we'll see. But, so there's another option, and you can guess that these gonna come thick and fast when these, when the stuff from James LaPage has been really solidified, I'm guessing that we will be in on that and everybody's used the wpa AI open source stuff that's out there, basically.

Yeah, So anyway, there was that. and then, okay, so that was all very positive and then we get to some of the more kind of like thoughtful pieces off the back of it and and a few kind of cautionary tales. This is Eric Kovic. Kaka, I'm sorry, Eric, apologies. And, this piece on the Specky Boy website, which I believe is his, at least I've only ever seen him writing over there.

how will AI impact the next generation of designers? read the word designers there carefully. So he is not talking about developers here, he's talking about designers. And and this is an area where I think that, that, kind of work is gonna be hoovered up by the ai. So this is where my problem lies.

so although I've been very bullish so far, I think we do need to exercise caution. 'cause it would seem, it would seem not to be in the interest of. All of humanity if we just unleash something, which in a heartbeat, and by heartbeat a few months, really just obliterates an entire industry because, we've gotta deal with the consequences of that as a society.

And, and he's talking about how designers, these generative AI tools are now so good. That for basic design work, there's really no question anymore. why would you employ a designer? Why would you even waste time going to something like Shutterstock and looking around where, whereas you confer pennies, just get an AI to do it and it will probably be fine.

And although he's not saying that there isn't a design process, which obviously a human will for now at least anyway, be superior at then, But he's slightly, I think he's basically saying we just need to watch out. yeah. So there was that piece. I dunno if anybody wants to contribute.

Can I? I do actually. Please. one of the, a couple things here. First of all, we've seen evolution in business over the years, the printing press page builders and WordPress, et cetera, et cetera. So careers are always evolving. That's the first thing we've gotta realize. I don't think in the long run this is gonna.

[01:14:11] Rob Cairns: Cost jobs. I just think it's gonna change the way we do things. That's the first thing. The second thing is AI and security, and you all on this panel know how much of a security guy I am have a big problem right now. I don't think AI at this point in time is generating necessarily secure code or secure design.

So I think that's an issue too. So the, I think there's a couple things go moving, parts going on here, and it's gonna take some time to see where it shakes out personally, but thank you. anybody else? I also think, a little aside, but we need to keep an eye on how all of our AI uses impacting our environment because it's really driving a lot, environmentally, entire towns are being impacted by the environment and the use of, what it takes to generate AI in, in that kind of thing.

[01:15:07] Michelle Frechette: So especially grok. right now. So yeah, the, I've heard sort of rumors about the, the new power stations, power plants, if you like, for like making sure that these newer AI facilities can come online. Yeah. And it is eye watering. The amount of data that is, is Perce, the size of these installations, what they're predicting they will need to build and are in fact building in order to satisfy the, the need.

[01:15:37] Nathan Wrigley: And, at least doesn't, at least here in the United States, things like that tend to get built in lower economic areas, which also not only impact that region, but also impacts, underrepresentation because the lower economic regions tend to be, have a higher concentration of underrepresented folks.

[01:15:57] Michelle Frechette: And so what are we doing in that respect as well? So gonna build, so keep in mind, so. space? No. We'll, because space is cold, right? You won't need refrigeration. Yeah. It's pretty chilly. we, we, had all this, and I'm not dissing this at all, but we will always have the ante of why not to do something.

[01:16:19] Andrew Palmer: Yep. And I, agree with it. It's effectively, it's gonna affect the planet. What we don't have is the positivity around what, can we do about it? So we could actually put it in space, when Microsoft put their servers underwater. Oh, under the water. Yeah, Cool. and all this nonsense about, fans and, windmills and everything being whatever they are.

We have to, as humans, we have to look at our own progress technologically and how that is going to affect our environment for our children, their children, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Yep. There is no doubt about it, but we have a universe. So we'll just then need to launch it into space.

We've got lasers, we'll, just broadband laser. You can, you, transport broadband by laser now. it's only, one step forward. We didn't think a few years ago that we could generate an image with AI that, the possibilities are endless. I think this is the, this. Sorry, apologies.

[01:17:22] Nathan Wrigley: I thought you finished. Sorry. Is stop worrying about it and just think, how do we fix it? That's all we got. The, yeah, the, this is, an argument which is constantly being argued, I think, between environmental minded people and the ai. and over here they're often labeled as tech bros. the, the usual suspects, the Sam Altman's and the, Elon Musks who are pushing this agenda.

And the idea, I think, being, Touted from the tech bros. Again, I'm doing air quotes, is that if we'll let AI figure out the environmental stuff, why not? It yeah, if it works, it's great. If it doesn't work, it's a bit, late, isn't it? We've only say get rid of humans and then we haven't got any other issues.

[01:18:04] Andrew Palmer: Yeah, that's right. I got a lot of hot air anyway. Screw the environment up in, in an attempt to not screw the environment up. But anyway, yes. and here's another piece. So that was Eric Kovac. This is now, Chris Coyer, who used to be the custodian of CSS tricks. a similar piece, really only this is more about content creators.

[01:18:25] Nathan Wrigley: So he is making the point that if you are a content creator, how AI is. I don't think it's happened yet, but his concern is that maybe it will happen, it will hollow out that, because the, promise of the, you'd write something, Google would find it, stick it on a search engine page and send traffic to you.

That's dying, Now the AI is consuming it all. You didn't agree to the AI consuming all, but it did it anyway. And that's now the model it, that Pandora's box cannot be closed anymore. And, and whether or not it's gonna be possible as content creators, if, the, justification for you creating content is 'cause you love to create content, that's not gonna change.

If your justification create for creating content was 'cause your employer told you to do it, again, that's not really gonna change. But if your justification for creating content is to make some money, that might change. and it would be a shame to see that kind of content kind of disappearing off the web.

And, he makes the point that CSS tricks, if you were starting it now. It's a real dilemma as to whether you would even bother because you just know that the, promise between you and search, or in this case AI is very, different indeed. And yeah, so you can go and check that out. Yeah. And Nathan, two spots.

[01:19:45] Rob Cairns: We were talking earlier before we went to air about podcasters, and I think, you Michelle and I are, I'll do podcasting. Andrew's appeared on enough podcasts to sink a battleship, that's another story. yeah, love you. But that's okay. But, and, honestly, AI makes our job easier, from doing editing to doing, show notes, to doing all kinds of stuff, right?

And choose your AI flavor. in my case it's Gemini and Notebook, LM these days. Other people use other things. that's the first thing. the other thing is AI's changed the way we do search. So I did an experiment the, couple months ago where I took my partner's name. She is not active on the internet except on Instagram through her name, and I've mentioned her in a couple podcasts 'cause those of listened to my podcast knows she's one of the people I dedicate my show to.

And her name showed up all over ai. So AI's changing the way we do search in a big way. And I think we're gonna get to the point where you're gonna go to AI for search instead of going to Google for search and choose your AI flavor. I'm, already there Yeah. interesting. So I'll just, the bit that resonated me, which kind of is very much a part of what you were just saying, Rob.

[01:21:08] Nathan Wrigley: I'm back on the CSS Tricks website here. He says, I certainly wrote a lot of content for that site, so CSS tricks, and still do, and there are people who still do to this day and AI have slurp up and increasingly re slurp it up. My main concerns with AI splurge are, yep, it's rude. Nobody asked me or the authors if that's okay.

now that's the bar and it never will. that's not about to change. The business model is akin to stealing pennies, and I'll just read the last one, sorry, Rob. AI interfaces are incentivized not to credit the sources. This is the big one when it comes to content. AI interfaces are not incentivized to credit sources or link out.

They want you to think that they are the brain and you do not need to go anywhere else. So I think that kind of sums it up quite nicely for me that, now, what I'll tell you is using Gemini as much as I do. It will credit sources. So I've had cases when I did that experiment, it would actually say where it came from.

[01:22:05] Rob Cairns: That's, does it surface that in the context as you are reading it? Or is that like footnotes? It's usually at the bottom. Yeah. You see that. To me that's a, that's very different. That's all my, like who reads the footnotes chat gives you links, gives you, links to, go to, to once it, say you've got a paragraph like this.

[01:22:28] Andrew Palmer: I don't understand this. It's rude. Nobody asked me all the other authors. nobody being found. You're being found. Yeah, I get it. I can see it from the other side in that it was fine when the promise was you are being found, we'll send you traffic. Whereas the promise now is more Right.

[01:22:46] Nathan Wrigley: We've, we, you'll be found. We've stolen your content without giving you any, credit for what you said already. And yeah. And we're gonna recycle it and pretend like the answer came out of. That I think is his point. we're gonna dress it up in language of, okay, here's the answer, this is what you need to know.

Yeah. I can see that on content generation, but on certainly on search it, it does give links to what the citations citation, but it ha it hasn't always, that's actually recent and G pt. Yeah. Which is a good thing. Thing. Don't forget we're learning and the, and they're also being, this is why we have to have legislation.

[01:23:21] Andrew Palmer: I hate big government, I hate it, it does protect us. You, the monopolies commission, the trust antitrust rules and all that kind of stuff. and the European GDPR, it protect, at the end of the day, it is protecting us. And the thing is, that's what it's protecting us from is inconsiderate.

Opportunistic entrepreneurship where they're saying, I can take attribution for this. Look at photographers, you have to give them an attribution. The whole point of Getty is they have 500 people ambulance chasing. Yeah. They really, and that, that's how I've been caught on that 600 quid for a hundred picked by, I had a coin get cut, crazy.

But it's just so I agree that they should be forced to give citations because why not? Yeah. I, and I think that's his point, right? Maybe if you can spin that, if you can turn that car around and point it in the other direction so that, like for example, citations might be the, remedy that he's after.

[01:24:24] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. And if that could be done reliably so that the content creator really did get the traffic. If, again, if traffic is their incentive and they wanna make money 'cause they got ads on the site, or they're trying to shift a product or whatever it may be, that then you we're trying to, we're trying to get to a point where content creators don't feel, what's the point?

We're not gonna create any more content because I'm not getting any traffic. that, that citation bit might very well be the answer, but it feels like maybe that hasn't been handled quite so well. So certainly from a legislative leg, easy for me to say legislative. There we go. Point of view. nobody's compelled to do it, so maybe if they were compelled to do it, that'd be interesting.

But the, yeah. Again, just interesting. Obviously Chris Coyer, I think he said he's written something, I don't know, something like, I can't remember a huge amount of words over his time. And he is obviously got legitimate concerns 'cause that's what he does. So we'll see how that lands. I'm very conscious of the time and I just wanna quickly nip through a few more things, if that's okay.

First one is this, again, we're staying with the theme of ai. This is AI and website security. So really in, Rob's wheelhouse, they have, an AI on your website security, how threats are evolving. It is a, an event, a live event, and it's taking place in just a couple of days. It's, 30th of July.

2:00 PM EDT. So I haven't got time to read all of the blurb, but this, who's presenting it. Oh, great. Yeah, this guy, he knows his stuff, Thomas. He does. He does. Yeah, he really does. He has a website called, we Watch your website, and they monitor, I don't know, seven and a half trillion things. It really is a lot.

It's a totally credible number. And and so that'll be an interesting thing if you wanna find out where we're at with AI and tools and things to make your website secure. obviously Rob said a minute ago, he is got his concerns, so that might be of interest to you. I'll very quickly move on if that's all right.

This one I thought, no, not that. This one I thought was really cool just 'cause it's cool and it's terrifying in equal measure. So this is a company who they are called now, let me get this right. What is the company called? Can't remember. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. You can read the article yourself talking of attribution.

Yeah, exactly. It's on the page, but I can't find Decart. There you go. Decart is the name of this company. They're building, a set of AI tools which will be able to modify your video in real time. I remember watching a BBC drama. It was like a 10 part drama and it was like six or seven years ago, and it was exactly this plot that somehow you could interrupt live tv.

Make live TV different from what was actually happening. And it, so you could, tell the news reader what to say in effect. On the one hand they're saying something over here, but what the public see in real time is something different. That's what this is. And so you have this person here, making a video.

And so in the corner here is what they're actually, putting out onto the live stream. And then over here you've got what they're, what is coming out and it's completely in real time and it gets all crazy, he ends up looking like Spider-Man and he ends up looking like something out of manga.

And, I, I just thought it was fun. Fun and terrifying and equal measure because, it's definitely black mirror stuff, isn't it? Next time I'll be made to look 20. And who wants that? You don't need it. You're a handsome fellow. You know what I mean though? I just think it's so interesting and so profoundly fraught with problems.

Like the idea that you can't trust video. Video until recently was the last bastion, wasn't it? Of if it's in a video, it happened. Whereas photography, since Photoshop came along, there's been that nagging doubt, like unreal. show pictures or it didn't happen is not gonna be a phrase that we can use anyway.

No. No, not with this. And it's, and even live stuff. Yeah. You won't really even know. But the, technology is very exciting. So I thought I'd raise that one. Imagine that you've got a news broadcast and you are broadcasting to different countries and you're giving different messages, To different countries.

[01:28:38] Andrew Palmer: Yeah, different language. Just like propaganda heaven, isn't it? Oh god, yeah. you just dropped the propaganda word. We're gonna have to end the episode now. Sorry. let me just see if there was anything else that I wanted to mention. There was draw a fish, but there's no time. Oh, go on. I'll quickly draw a fish this time.

[01:28:55] Nathan Wrigley: It's fine. This is draw a fish com. Draw a fish.com. So look, this is how good I am. I was always bad at art. You, you get a score, the probability of it being a fish at this point, as soon as you start to put like fins on it. I immediately went all green. It's okay, that's a fish. So you draw a fish, you have, I'm gonna do a really big happy fish.

How that's the level now, but it's smiling. It really? Yeah. My smiley fish. And then as if that wasn't fun enough. This is funny. It that was map fault. This is my favorite part. Fun off. You can click the make it swim button, type in a name and then, and then you submit it. Can you make it swim against the tide?

If you are lucky enough, it will become,

and you can see that I'm not the only one on the internet. It is terrible. I can't find yours in there. You know when you come across those, you find these things. That's what I wanna know. Oh, you come across a website and it needlessly captures your attention. We'll draw a fish.com. Must have been a soy was that for me?

So there we go. a few comments just before we end it. Let's, I'm gonna leave the draw a fish up there. 'cause it's pleasing. Oh yes. It's good on the eyes. Leave it there. nomad Skateboarding. Hello. Says if I read 10 philosophy papers, then write one with footnotes. do I contact the other 10 authors for permission to digest their original comments?

That is, and then it carries on not my argument. One I have seen Interesting point, but the Yeah, but the footnotes are giving credit. So we were talking about when it's not giving credit, that's the difference. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Interest. Okay. Yeah. This, we can't possibly solve it, can we and, James Lau is joining us just as we end.

Good morning. Good morning, James. James. We've done a entire 90 minutes about Phish. You should, yes. press rewind. It's great, enjoy. Missed out. James, you missed out And Nathan's issues with AI James. Yeah. Oh, good job though. Like you said, my son will draw a fish today. That's great. Nice. yeah.

What was that old phrase? Draw a fish. Teach em. How does, how do these sites make money? That's what I wanna know. They don't make money. It's just there. Because just do it, don't it? It's crazy. For giggles. For giggles give. Give a man fish. She'll eat for a day. Take him to draw a fish. She'll be entertained for hours.

Trying to sum that. You did it. Philosophy is the fish, I think. I think that's gonna be the show notes title today. Some Give a Man a Fish or something like that. I thought. There we go. AI is lit, There you go. AI is lit. Lemme I like that one. No, I told you that AI is lit. Does lit require a full stop at the end?

Is it an abbreviation or is it a word? No, it's lit as an on fire. Amazing. Oh, I lit, not lit up. Oh, I thought it came from legitimate for some reason. no. It's lit as in lit. My kids. Explain that to me. I still,

you. I'm older than you Nathan, but you can always ask me. I need to go. I need to go, Michelle.

[01:32:15] Michelle Frechette: Everybody should come back next week when we teach Nathan how he has Riz. That's, yes, Nathan. Nathan definitely has Riz. I don't even, that sounds rude. Are you being rude or is that No, that's Conent serious. Have no, you definitely have got all. Okay, that's it. Okay. I dunno what I just said. I, all I can say is my mother's very disappointed in me.

[01:32:40] Nathan Wrigley: And, and on that bone shelf, we'll, we'll knock it on the head. It's an absolute pleasure to have all the guests on. Obviously that goes without saying. So thank you so much to Michelle Ette, thank you to Rob Cairns, thank you for, to Andrew Palmer, but also very nice to have you come in into the comments and pushing us in different directions and what have you.

And I really appreciate that. We will be back this time next week, dunno who's on yet, but we will be back this time next week. And, just before we go, the slightly humiliating hand wave mind, is that how you do it? Mind? Oh yeah. I've got a whole new thing. It started last week. I go like that and then I go like that.

It's all the wave. I love it, Michelle. There we go. And, I will click stop and, if you three wanna hang around for a little bit, we can certainly do that. But for the rest of you, thank you so much. We will see you next time. For this week in WordPress. Take it easy. Bye-bye. Bye-Bye bye.