421 – “At The Core” with Birgit Pauli-Haack and Fabian Kaegy – Episode 3.

[00:00:20] Nathan Wrigley: Hello there and welcome once again to the WP Builds podcast. You've reached episode number 421 entitled At the Core with Birgit Pauli-Haack and Fabian Kaegy, episode three. It was published on Thursday, the 8th of May, 2025. My name's Nathan Wrigley, and before we join Bigot and Fabian, a few bits of housekeeping.

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Okay, what have we got for you today? Well, it is the third in a series of podcasts that I've been doing with Birgit Pauli-Haack. I've also been joined in this series by Anne McCarthy, and today we're welcoming Fabian Kaegy. And it's a conversation called At the Core. And the idea is that about once every three months we join up and have a chat about what has happened in WordPress Core during that time.

A lot has been happening, and so we get into all of that. So we talk about the Source of Truth document, which beer has put together over on the Gutenberg Times. But then we also talk about the cadence of WordPress, and the fact that it's shifting over to a one major release cycle per year. How does this impact, and what benefits can we spy in the future because of that?

We also get into a new AI product by 10up and a theme switcher plugin as well. It's all coming up next, and I hope that you enjoy it.

I am joined on the podcast by two fabulous guests. I've got Birgit Pauli-Haack and Fabian Kaegy. Hello both.

[00:04:46] Fabian Kaegy: Hello.

[00:04:47] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Well, hello. Thanks for having me.

[00:04:49] Fabian Kaegy: Good to be here.

[00:04:50] Nathan Wrigley: You are very welcome. I'm really pleased to have you both back. This is a show which we've been doing for several episodes now. It's called At the Core, and I think you can probably work really run show once every three months.

So every quarter gives us a little bit of time for things to change, things to happen. And actually quite a lot has changed in the last three months, more so about the nature of the project rather than the specific bits and pieces in the project. But that's what we're here to talk about. And in order to know that the people that I'm talking with have some authority in this space, let's have a little bit of an introduction from you both. I'll go to Birgit first, just your little potted bio. Tell us who you are.

[00:05:34] Birgit Pauli-Haack: All right. A little putted by, oh, that's a very, British expression. So my name is big Paul Hak. I'm the curator at the Gutenberg Times, and I host for the Gutenberg Change Log. I work for Automatic, and I'm a developer advocate for WebPress and other things. And, I live in Munich and married, for many decades.

[00:05:56] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you so much. And Fabian over to you.

[00:05:59] Fabian Kaegy: Yeah, I'm Fabian Kaegy. I'm, the director of editorial engineering over at the WordPress Focused Agency 10up. And, I'm a WordPress Core Committer, officially kind of got that title back in December. Very happy about it. and, yeah, I live over in Germany, have been part of the workforce community for quite some time, and excited to be on the show for the first time.

[00:06:24] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, thank you so much and it makes me realize immediately I said Fabian and it's Fabian, so I apologize for that.

[00:06:30] Fabian Kaegy: I, I, the funny thing is when I'm in my English brain, it's Fabian also. it, it is just the natural thing to say.

[00:06:41] Nathan Wrigley: if I switch between the two, forgive me, but there you go. Now you know. Now you know these two people have got real chops. real, interest in the project, consuming it, living it, breathing it. Over the last three months. Now what we've done is as always, we've created, a sort of Google Doc and we have blocked the subject into various bits and pieces.

Time permitting will get through all of it. We might not, but we'll endeavor to do the best that we can. Always, every single thing that we mention will be linked in the show notes. So if you head to wp builds.com and search for at the core and you'll find the latest episode, and, you'll see the show notes there.

don't try to figure out what the links are. Obviously you could Google it, that'll work. But we'll have all of the show notes listed. And so the first piece that we're gonna be talking about today is, Gutenberg Times, big it is, is bringing us something that's produced on something that she produces and it's the source of truth, WordPress 6.8 document.

And, I'll just summarize what this is. This is an endeavor to essentially put in one place all of the different bits and pieces that have happened. Lots of links, lots of description, the entire gamut of 6.8 basically on one page. But because of that, there's probably too much for us to describe or discuss.

And so we're gonna limit it to six things. And, let's start off then with the fact that 6.8 has got some, some details, enhancements, as you've said in our show notes. Birgit fabian, over to you, whatever you want to say about that.

[00:08:14] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Oh, it, I'm, I put the things I wanna talk about from the content creator's point of view. and so the detail enhancements are not the details of the enhancements. There is a detailed block in,

[00:08:31] Nathan Wrigley: I should have said that. I apologize. Yeah,

[00:08:33] Birgit Pauli-Haack: in, no, I like that. kind of, yeah. details block is, you have a summary and then it opens up to the details of that. It's pretty much kind of what an accordion block would

[00:08:45] Nathan Wrigley: It's like a single accordion, isn't it? It's just one little.

[00:08:49] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yes. And that is, why this enhancement is really good, because now you can group single blocks to an accordion kind, an FAQ page, and, The browser automatically will, close one when you open the next one from that group. And there's a name attribute in the sidebar, a little bit further down on the sidebar where you can give each detail block detail, block a, the same name like FAQ or what you ever wanted to know about things. and then it, grew the browser group some, with the behavior. So that is really good.

[00:09:32] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it's a nice little feature, isn't it? I use the details block in order to, I dunno if this is the right use of it, but I use it to show and hide transcripts for podcast episodes, because I think it's fair to say that the majority of people, probably are listening to it, but obviously there are people who would like to consume that content.

So it just says transcript. You click on the little arrow, op it opens. And, but now I could block that transcript into various different sections, I don't know, intro, main content, outro, something along those lines. How, however you want to do it. So little groups with inside of the main block. Okay. That's, a really, yeah.

[00:10:13] Birgit Pauli-Haack: and what even helps you is that the details block. summary, so That's, the top line will show up in the list view now, so you can orient you, where you are on, the whole page. That's, another, Great. enhancement there. yeah, I think, yeah.

[00:10:32] Fabian Kaegy: sorry. Then the nice, one of the nice things about it is that. That was one thing that we wanted to ship from the very beginning of when that block was even introduced. There was a lot of debate back when that got merged into into Gutenberg, because there is still that conflict. Is this actually for accordions or is it just for the use case that you just mentioned?

For transcripts and those kinds of actual details things because of the semantics, and originally when that details block was shipped, the browser didn't have a native way of supporting all of that, so you had to build your custom JavaScript implementations for grouping them, and it just wasn't a clean thing that we felt comfortable shipping in core.

And then there was a new browser standard that actually is that name attribute, that just gets added to that HDML details element, which at the time when we merged it was at 20% global availability across browsers. And now, earlier this year, it finally kind of. Has reached that 90 plus percent, threshold.

So we actually now have sufficient browser support across all of the big browsers everywhere that we were. This feature is now fully built on top of just web standards and is using, using that, which is very

[00:11:47] Nathan Wrigley: That's an interesting thing, isn't it? Because we don't often talk about the dance between a CMS WordPress and what the browsers will allow, because many developers, you can imagine, oh, third party block suites that they may implement their own JavaScript version of that and figure out how to chunk things into different sections, if you like, with a bit of JavaScript.

But waiting for the standards based approach is obviously, there's just, there's all the time in the world now for that to be implemented and you don't have to unpick things and have the backwards compatibility problem and, working on open web standards, W three C bits and pieces. Yeah, that's great.

Anything to add to that or should we crack on? I think that means crack on. Okay. Style book, confess the style book is something that I don't often

But, style

[00:12:51] Birgit Pauli-Haack: the style was hidden and it's still hidden, but when you, the global styles moved from, they didn't move. They're on both sides now. But, the global styles, used to be on the right hand side and they're now on the left hand side just next to the dark navigation bar. so you can make changes to blocks and style variations and all that, but you have never, and the style book actually gives you a easy way to look at the, how the changes affect all the blocks in your. In your site and how they look. So if you change typography, for the text, you see how it changes for the heading, for the paragraph, for the quote, for the, yeah. All those, blocks where text is, available and the, it's a, very easy way to quality, to do quality assurance on your styling and also how it propagates around all those blocks that are on, patterns that are on your site. and you can easily.

[00:13:57] Nathan Wrigley: Back in the day always creating a page, sorry, big. I remember back in the day always creating a page for my clients where I would try to implement all of the different bits and pieces that a client could possibly see. So here's what a P tag will look like. Here's the H one through the H six, here's a button, here's another button.

And now all of that is just done for you. You could just ship it to the client, say, look, go here, click that. And that's what everything will look like. Does it bring in the third party blocks? Let's say I've got a block.

[00:14:25] Birgit Pauli-Haack: It does. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:30] Nathan Wrigley: Anything to add.

[00:14:32] Fabian Kaegy: For style I still think it's so great of that it still something that very, trying to even better, better often still have to resource to building all the patterns and many more variations of especially of. I am, I have to confess, that is one thing that I'm not hundred percent sure. Maybe bigger. You available or that okay then? That, that.

[00:15:22] Birgit Pauli-Haack: It's

[00:15:25] Fabian Kaegy: Is using theme json, but not a fully block-based You now also get to use that, that style book, in a read only mode. And that is much closer to the thing that we, for the highly customized client sites, want to actually have. Because most of the time, yes, we're using the site editor and we're using global styles as a development tool to kind of build the design system, do all those things, but then we want to leverage the Style book as a kind of QA tool and for the client to see what's available, but not.

fully exposing it to be all editable, all just customizable, but rather just having that one place where you can see all the things and that is where it is now. Super powerful. That, that's also available to classic themes though.

[00:16:19] Nathan Wrigley: Sorry. You carry on. I apologize.

[00:16:21] Fabian Kaegy: I was just also gonna say it, it kind of is funny that in the time between, I think I was also very active about the fact that, hi, hey, I want this style book to be available for classic themes.

Because most of the work that I was doing a year and a half ago were classic and hybrid themes, and now a hundred percent of the work I'm doing is block-based themes. So it's kind of, I no longer am using it, in, in classic theme context, but, it's funny how those things work out.

[00:16:50] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it'll certainly be useful for those people who are, still using a classic theme. And it's the thing that I think most honestly, I think most people won't have visited the style book. certainly not the kind of place that they're returning to that often, but if you are shipping client websites, definitely figure out where it is because it's going to save you a lot of time and it's just such an interest.

It's actually just quite interesting scrolling through and thinking, oh, I missed that one. okay. Really the p is gonna look like that. Okay. so brilliant, nice updates and it's all now moved over to the left and it will integrate nicely with the global styles. Okay, so number three on our list from the, the source of truth document is called browser through section Styles in zoom out view of Patterns. That's quite a lot to say.

[00:17:38] Birgit Pauli-Haack: It's a lot of, yeah.

[00:17:40] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. So pause this for us, Birgit.

[00:17:43] Birgit Pauli-Haack: So the section styles came

in with 6.6, and, WebPress 6.6 and, the zoom out view came in with 6.7. And now this is a combination that when you zoom out and you add a pattern that you also get a little button in the toolbar where you can change through the color settings. Yeah, the style variations for that particular pattern and how it changes.

So web, 2025 has. a few style variations for, the group and they have, different color, so different background, different foreground, different funds. And, it, livens up the page when you can change the color just for that particular section. And, that is nice to, go through and very easily, just see how the page changes when you go. Just hit the button multiple times and browse through those section styles.

[00:18:51] Nathan Wrigley: I think the context that you get from the zoom out view is something I didn't really anticipate when it first shipped. I thought, okay, that's a curious thing. Okay, there it is. But then the more that it present, and actually in most cases for me, it presents itself automatically. I drop a pattern in and there it is.

I'm just looking at it right away and I have to dismiss it, but it immediately tells me, okay, that's what the whole thing will look like. And then being able to say, okay, that bit in the middle, let's just click the button. And we'll just add a bit, I dunno. we'll just change the feel of it.

We'll go from dark to light to back to dark within the patterns, and you can just get a feel of what the whole document will look like. and it seems like a nothing, but it's actually a really powerful thing. And especially for the designers out there, it just gives you an intuition of, oh yeah, that's what I want.

Or, oh, no. that's really not what we wanted. And it all just happens seamlessly. Fabian, over.

[00:19:48] Fabian Kaegy: I, I think it's a perfect example of the gradual improvement of those features that we're seeing in WordPress now, where. in, in 6.6, the section styles were added, and then in 6.7 it was changed so that in, in the zoom out mode or in in those various rendering modes, when, when a block is rendered in that content only presentation where you kind of, you don't see all of the wrappers, all of that complex structure, but you just see the content pieces that you would still be able to change the different section styles that are available for that group.

And that, that was not as discoverable through the block toolbar. It was only it showed in the right hand inspector area where it could switch between those. And that was already a massive improvement because you are now able to leverage that very powerful feature of those section stalls even when things are in the, in that more user friendly content only locked mode.

and now. The next step of that, actually exposing that to easily cycle through those variations is just, it's a nice, nice flow of how that feature is progressing.

[00:20:57] Nathan Wrigley: I totally agree, and it feels, for me at least anyway, the future of WordPress is patterns. I want to be in a world where I've pre-configured a bunch of patterns and I, go to start something fresh and just click, drop in the patterns. and, in some cases they can be quite big, it could be almost like a whole landing page worth of a pattern, so it's not just like a little row or something.

And having the context of, okay, what does that look like? A botted against that one. Okay, that doesn't work. Let's move those around and what have you. It's just a really neat little feature. So if you haven't seen those, go and check it out. And now we've got the option to, to, interfere with the colors of those

right

[00:21:37] Birgit Pauli-Haack: not only the colors you also can change the design. So if you, drag and drop a pattern in that has a category like, call to action or a, services kind of thing. You can, there's also button that says change design, and then you get a different pattern from the same category. so that's also came with 6.7.

It's not immediately visible, but, because you still have to make the choice the, These the, choices before you put it into the page. but it's also, streamlines the what you said. Yeah. The page creation process quite a bit. Yeah. The, you can just drag and drop all the patterns in there and then be done with it, and then make all the changes, like the header changes, the copy, changes, the images, you switch out, then for the next step. Yeah.

[00:22:31] Nathan Wrigley: These kind of things are really democratizing not just the creation of content on the web, but the creation of design on the web. it really does empower people who, like me, basically, I always liken myself to a potato, in terms of my capability to design nice things. I do not have it. but thankfully other people do and they create nice looking patterns for me.

And so in a heartbeat, click, oh, that's, basically what I want. And it's just wonderful, just absolutely wonderful that this stuff is freely available to us. I will move on then. So section four of Birgits source of expand.

[00:23:16] Birgit Pauli-Haack: that takes care of something that has been really bothering me for a while is, you can, for each image block, you can set the setting, expand on, click on the front end. so it you have a thumbnail and it get, get bigger. if you put that image in the gallery up until 6.7, yeah. 6.7, 6.8, you had to make that choice for every single image that in your gallery, if you have five, that's possible.

If you have 10, you are annoyed by number seven. Yeah, so now there is a, for a gallery setting that kind of with one click puts it to all images that are in the gallery.

[00:24:05] Nathan Wrigley: clickable having you're guaranteed to.

[00:24:15] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Oh, yeah.

[00:24:17] Nathan Wrigley: Guaranteed and it'll be the just basically.

[00:24:25] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yeah.

[00:24:25] Fabian Kaegy: So haven't actually can cycle the light or is by.

[00:24:36] Birgit Pauli-Haack: It, it's still only one by one, but I know that, some of the plugins, chat pack or So add that missing piece Yeah. Where you can then cycle free. Yeah.

[00:24:48] Nathan Wrigley: They layer that on the things. Obviously.

[00:25:03] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yeah. And that, is the discussion, on amongst the con, contributors Yeah. How to best, achieve that gallery kind of sliding back and forth, in points of accessibility and opinions are strong. So it didn't move further for now. Yeah.

[00:25:24] Nathan Wrigley: it.

favorite. The query query a great it at brought suddenly makes it do really but.

[00:26:23] Birgit Pauli-Haack: the pa you could, do a query block and go through all the pages. and you can also, identify a parent and say, Okay. bring me all the, child pages for that if you put them in, a hierarchical form. But what you couldn't do was sort the, sub pages, or any pages that are in the loop, with a sort order that you already put in there. And that is now available in two forms. You can do it ascending or descending. So you go from zero to, eight or from eight to zero. but it's, sort, the, thumbnails are sorted or the, list of page, page is sorted. the second one is the query total block, is a new block. And that gives you, the information that, with that page load on the query, we have 12 results found, for instance.

Yeah. Or saying and then showing in the pagination, one through 10 of 12 re results. That's that information that was missing from the query block. But it was, pretty much in, in a lot of, classic theme templates in there. now that is also coming to the block editor.

[00:27:49] Nathan Wrigley: To, do we have know exists or ur UX that, that will put that in when insert the query.

[00:27:58] Birgit Pauli-Haack: there, there, is no automation. It's only available when you're in the query loop block, When you click on the plus sign, then it? shows up in the list. Yeah. But, other than that, you need to know. Yeah. That you want that.

[00:28:12] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Okay. Fabian, anything on that one before we get to your.

[00:28:16] Fabian Kaegy: I was just gonna say for the sort order that is something that if you've ever worked on a client site and had to deal with a team page where leadership needs to come first and this person needs to be before that other person, that is the typical example. And I think even to this day, one of the oldest plugins that, was still hand coded by the founder of TE Up, that simple page reordering plugin is kind of, yeah, we have that menu order thing where you can input the, the number, but now being able to use that simple patriot ordering plugin to just reorder of the pages visually in, in the, list, kind of in the admin table and then being able to tie it to your quar loop to show to use it there is just so cool.

[00:29:01] Nathan Wrigley: Okey doke. And the last bit that we've got in terms of the, the source of truth document is, viewing the template as you edit content and then you've added persistent in brackets. I'm gonna hand this one to Fabian because he was the one that added this in.

[00:29:15] Fabian Kaegy: Yes, that, that has been my, my pet's, feature that I, I've just, for me, that feature made block-based themes so much more powerful than, than traditional and classic themes. The actual options to view the template as you added content actually isn't a new thing. It has been, I think, since WordPress, 6.5 or even earlier.

But it was something that was very undiscoverable. previously it was only kind of in the document sidebar where you were able to switch between different templates. There was one option between that change template or create a new template that was few template, which allowed you to toggle that. And in a block-based theme, when your entire template is made out of blocks, that shows you all of those template pieces in the editor as you're editing your content.

So imagine you have a single post that has the title at the very top, then the featured image, then some tags, some author information, and then the actual content in. Without that option, you just see your title and the content. And when you check that option, you now see the title, the featured image, the tags, everything as you're actually editing the content And.

[00:30:36] Nathan Wrigley: Do you? You carry on.

[00:30:37] Fabian Kaegy: Sorry. those in that mode, all of the template blocks by default are disabled. You can't actually select them, but there is a special way that we can mark specific blocks as blocks. So, for example, the featured image, if it is placed in the template, that block still is editable. You can, you cannot delete the block, you cannot move it, but you can set the feature image right in line right then or there.

And that, that is something that it has been around for a little bit. But it, now, first of all, if you check that option, it persists to your settings. So if you reload the page the next time, still know what preference you had. Also, the setting has been raised to also appear in that little, device dropdown where you can also preview your, post in a new tab.

And there is a new post type support that we can add in code to actually change the default on a per post type basis. So a theme developer can say, Hey, I actually want this to be the default for pages or for this custom post type. And then that is just the experience that the user gets from the first time they visit the page.

[00:31:54] Nathan Wrigley: It's a real, it's a real, what is what you get moment, isn't it? It really is. It encapsulating the entire look feel of your site, whereas the block editor in the past, I love it personally. I actually prefer to divorce the content from the template that surrounds it. get that in shape, then click publish.

But, I realize that's probably for clients, weird, you've got this basically white interface and you click publish and then it becomes something entirely different over at 10 op do you use, or are you intending to use that feature, switch it on for content creators that you ship sites for, or will you stick with the, maybe it's a bit of.

[00:32:35] Fabian Kaegy: Yeah, so we had a very interesting journey that when we started rolling out just the block editor and classic theme, there was immediately demand, Hey, I want to have that rich editing experience for the hero of the page. I want to be able to place something kind of below a call to action. At the very bottom, I want to use this media and text block that I use here in content, also at the very bottom of the article, below my author byline or below the comments.

But in that, that wasn't really possible because that was outside of the content area. And so something that we started doing at some point was in those classic themes, we actually made set up the theme so that. Only the actual site header and the site footer are on the template and everything in between that is just the content area, which means that now our article header is a block, the common stuff or stuff below that.

Those are all just blocks or template parts that are used in the actual post content of every single page, which works great, but has that downside that it makes future redesigns and bigger changes to the structure of the site much harder because you're now putting design decisions into your content.

And that kind works if you're building custom dynamic blocks because that markup still is malleable. You can just update that. But if you use a cover block with a title block within it as your hero, that now is baked into all of your thousands of pages and you can't easily update that and.

[00:34:16] Nathan Wrigley: Right.

[00:34:29] Fabian Kaegy: That beautiful all of those template are visually editable, having a rich editable still retaining that templates and.

[00:34:56] Nathan Wrigley: Going off a then you content. So do to those if an edit really, this.

[00:35:17] Fabian Kaegy: When, when that option turned on to those that are in like that article can't go all of a sudden go in and but we can pieces, content in retain some of that flexibility still editable visually in the same way that you edit everything not as if you had a cover block in there you want you can the sidebar.

[00:36:13] Nathan Wrigley: oh fascinating. I whole just but we gotta move on.

Um, want to, I just want to bring it back to the beginning of the site editor where, site owners Yeah. That are bloggers or, so we are totally confused between, because the new concept, the template concept was introduced new to WordPress for content creators. They didn't have access to that before. And that this distinction between template and content always confuse people at the beginning of things. They were editing a template, but they were thinking they were editing, just a page, and then

[00:36:57] Birgit Pauli-Haack: was totally surprised that it was propagated the world. That's old site. Yeah. So with that, show content, show template, it, it takes away that confusion.

Yeah. So people can switch it on and be that way because it shows all the headers, all the footers. All the sidebars. And it's not only for the agencies or for bespoke, themes that it's really good. It's also for the, normal WebPress users, I call them, that are bloggers and use it out of the, box and just wanna change some of their things on their own website and get confused.

[00:37:35] Nathan Wrigley: There's a lot in this release, which is, fits that perfectly. just helping. I'm gonna use air quotes, ordinary people to, to publish more and more complicated things so long as they can, spend the time learning the interface. But, we pick six, go and check out that, article. It's called, source of Truth, and then in brackets WordPress 6.8. It's on gutenberg times.com.

[00:38:08] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I just wanted to, that's, there's a bug that came out very, late in the, release cycle that when you, switch on the, what was it? the, if you switch off that show template, you are not able to see the Zoom view. Yeah, that's it is connected, but in my brain it wasn't.

And it took me a while to figure out why that wasn't working. And then somebody gave me the tip. You need to show, show the template and then you can also do the zoom view. So that might trip some, people up. And that's the solution. Right now, it's a bug.

[00:38:48] Nathan Wrigley: Do you be.

[00:38:54] Birgit Pauli-Haack: no, there was, there was actually a, discussion about if it's, really a bug, but the kind of, yeah, from the developer point of view,

[00:39:05] Nathan Wrigley: That's.

[00:39:06] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I don't like those.

[00:39:07] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I like that. Is it a or is it a.

[00:39:11] Birgit Pauli-Haack: it's not a feature, but it's We done a whole episode.

Oh, yeah.

[00:39:20] Nathan Wrigley: Gonna, talk of I don't know, three, times call it something go I don't want to get all out the but there are but it's been will the. So way are at the moment, if they, if that continues 2026, we'll see 6.9 and maybe WordPress seven will come 2027, something like that. However, there's been quite a flurry of people around on the internet, writing posts where they flip the argument, really, and rather than spelling out, heck, that means things are slowing down.

They're thinking, actually, there's an opportunity here. there's a moment where the, slowing down for one of a better word, but notice WordPress 6.8 0.1. Is dropping that didn't slow down. but there's a, there's opportunities here. Maybe that WordPress 6.9 won't be coming in the very, very near future will give us an opportunity to finesse, for want of a better word, what we have already.

And there's a couple of different pieces that I want to draw your attention to. thankfully put the show notes by, Fabian and by Birgit one's, by Jeff Paul. And it's called Minor but mighty. I love that. Elevating WordPress, one minor release at a time. And then there's also another one by Aaron Bin, called Defining Minor releases for WordPress, 6.8 point X.

And essentially they both deal with the same subject that I've just described. But did you, did the pair of, you wanna draw out what your conclusions were from that? what are the, benefits? There may be some cons, but there's definitely some pros to the way things are going.

So over to you, either of you, whoever wants to speak first, really?

[00:41:28] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Fabian, you wanna take that? Or as a core contributor and being very involved in releases.

[00:41:34] Fabian Kaegy: Happy to. yeah, for me, I, I see kind of, I think before we even started recording, we briefly talked about that, that I, I agree with the fact that I almost felt like releases before this shift happened either too frequently or to seldom were it. I kind of like the Gutenberg plugin itself has a release cadence of every two weeks, which I think is, is great because it just, if there's something that is not great in this release, you'll know, hey, in two weeks there will be another one that there is a chance to get it fixed and to update something.

And there just is a really continuous improvement and we're slowly changing things. Whereas with the way that things happened over the last 2, 3, 4 years, it was every quarter of a year, every third of a year, you're kind of in this mode of, hey, there are all these changes that are happening now that maybe are a little bit disruptful sometimes, sometimes, but then there's nothing really for a whole nother third of a year or fourth of a year.

And you kind of, if something is broken in this release, it's very hard to still, or it's, there's a long timeframe to actually get something, something updated and. Also still somehow it feels like you're in maintenance mode of, Hey, I need to just scramble to get that update and then test all the things.

So soft often and most of the years just taken up by that. And I feel like with, with only having one big release, that means that we have to do more minor releases and that means that we have to change our definition of what a minor release is a little bit. Because in the past, the threshold for actually getting a bug fix that was fixed in the Gutenberg plugin back into a WordPress minor release was so high that it barely ever happened.

We, we almost never shipped small gradual improvement or fixes from the Gutenberg plugin into a WordPress minor release. Yeah. If it is a critical thing that is really breaking your site, we it, but we, we very seldom did it. And this is something that already, with this first release, we're starting to see the definition of what.

Makes it into those minor releases changes a bit. And we're much more considerate of minor releases in the Gutenberg, repository where if there is a small quality of life fix for something that isn't necessarily a broken feature, but a broken user experience or a user experience, that could be refined a little bit, not by adding a ton of new code, but just making it a tiny bit better.

Those are things that we can consider for minor releases, and that is what kind of excites me about it, that the, the time it takes to get a small fix actually released to end users. Now it doesn't have to be half a year or, or something. It can also be a much shorter timeframe. I, I know for myself, kind of what I've mainly focused on before this change was.

Doing advocacy for big, big upcoming features to make sure that the agency perspective was considered As we're building those and providing feedback for the big features. And while that still is something that I keep an eye on for, my focus right now been long that kind of never got the those are year without And so it definitely has its pros and but I there is lot of opportunity.

[00:45:34] Nathan Wrigley: I'm it that the importance of the minor releases will go up a bit. but also, don't know about you, but have you ever got fatigue with, so not WordPress, like you've, let's say that you've bought into a SaaS app and they are constantly changing it.

You just get this new feature and this other new feature and you log in and it's what the heck? Where is it? Anything? and I think maybe we were in danger of doing that a little bit with WordPress and so this sort of slowing down, yes, it does mean that when seven comes around, fairly of and no that make sure say months, 12 months, that are with then, there's bit of a gonna That's so.

[00:46:47] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Oh Birgit.

Yeah. And I, think that's right, Iman. Jeff w calls it, clearing out the backlogs of the good first bugs addressing paper cuts in the small, or yeah, small UX annoyances. That's what, Fabian was, expressing and also prioritizing accessibility improvements that can, yeah, so it's, it's more. Or it's inclusive to everyone. And usable to anyone. Everyone. it also has, a great opportunity for people who just use WordPress because as you see, they can now dive into this, to the features that are already there. They're not having to catch up with all the new stuff. Now it's, you can, dive into what is, can I do a pattern?

Can I do, yeah. What, is it that a pattern is? constructed of, and yeah, to dive into this feature that have been around for maybe three or four versions, you just couldn't dive in because there's all the new things that are coming out that you needed to handle too. so it's the moment to level up the skillsets pretty much with, instead of, dealing with the new updates go deeper on the features.

And that's particularly important for those who build sites for others to. Maybe build up a library of patterns and, templates and startup content that have, and, have the assurance that it won't be obsolete, in the next three months because WebPress comes out with a new version and does a few things slightly different, but you need to check it all. and this, is definitely a, an opportunity to help with that, to also refine processes of migrating customers from the block based, to the block based WordPress. Yeah, from classic to, because it's now a little bit of, it's a moment where you can say, okay, this doesn't change for the next few

months, or. The next nine months and you can build, up on top of that. I can also see that plugin developers are going to be a little bit more of risk, takers because, a lot of public plugin

developers have, hold back because Gutenberg was changing so often and they didn't have the, time and the resources to dive in and say, okay, I need to build a plugin for that.

But I'm shy away because every two weeks or every three months, I have to do the whole process again and look through my code base.

That has not been, that's now the, opportunity now to build what's missing in core and to get it to the, to customers and, and refine it With a WordPress, that doesn't change for the next eight months, 10 months, 12 months, as you said.

So I, I see a lot of opportunities there that are not there before. And also the time shift. Yeah. I'm, myself, I, did a lot of content creation. Yeah. But now I'm looking the source of truth. is one thing. Also, writing about the new features in, in release post and all that, takes a major effort.

And if you do them in the whole contributors, do that major effort only once a year. What else can we do? Yeah.

So there is a lot of, new Yeah. I know that in. 2019, quite a few training companies have, stopped building new tutorials 'cause they're new every time a new WebPress version comes out, they had to redo the whole

thing and it wasn't feasible anymore for them. But now it's the time to actually create those tutorials and or do some, deeper dives into the UI and how to, do, certain layouts, like what Jamie Moss is doing on his, Video channel kinda. So there are a lot of, opportunities that I see out there coming from this, and it reminds me a little bit back. before the good work, there was, a core standstill. It was only incremental changes, even with major releases, but the power of WordPress came through plugins and, because of that standstill, those plugins really flourished. at, yeah, it was, 20 10, 20 15, that kind of time. And I think that, the next two years will have, an influx of new features that come from third.

[00:51:36] Fabian Kaegy: Yeah.

[00:51:38] Nathan Wrigley: the truth is we are where we are. what we've got is what we've got. And so I guess it's the whole glass half full, half empty paradigm, isn't it? And I think looking at it in that way is really positive. Fabian, I can sense that you've got more to.

[00:51:53] Fabian Kaegy: There, there's one. One other thing from the actual committer contributor perspective that I think one of something that we've spent so much time on, and actually it kind of dead time that isn't really actively useful through the project, is that whole backporting process from features that are developed in the Gutenberg plugin into WordPress core, because they're two entirely separate code bases and it's not fully automated of getting something from one place to another.

So oftentimes it is a very manual process of, Hey, I first develop it in this code base, and then if it actually should merge into workforce core and a release, we now do this really big backport thing where we actually now take this code, move it over, adjust it, and that that is just a very error prone and a very, very human labor intensive process that takes a huge amount of resources, every single release and something that.

There is no official decision on this at this point, but something that there have been many, many conversations about even before this was, is there, is there some way that we can integrate that development and actually combine that? Because Gutenberg kind of is the alpha channel of WordPress in a way.

[00:53:11] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:53:11] Fabian Kaegy: we actually make that happen to have, this is just a imagination, but could we have one singular repository that is both Gutenberg and WordPress core?

In one word, if you make an update that just is, is the alpha version of WordPress. Maybe we have the Gutenberg plugin as the Alpha channel that allows you to use that version or something. But those are all structural changes that require a bunch of kind of a bunch of work from the core committers, from the system admins, from all of those people that are usually so tied up into.

Release work that this, all of this release stuff just constantly needs to happen. So there isn't really any time to put into all of the systems, behind the scenes that are running the ship, how we are maintaining that, how we're building code. And I see a great potential of actually revisiting some of those things and using that time to maybe dive into those things to improve that experience because there's so much time that we waste on those things that really we shouldn't have to that.

I'm, I'm quite hopeful that there's, whether it is one repo, whether there's just more automated systems of talking between those two repos or whatever the solution might be. There are much smarter folks thinking about that than I am, but the, I am excited to maybe see some, some movement on that area because there now is more time to actually work on stuff like that.

[00:54:37] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it's, it the thing which comes into my mind is being caught on a bit of a treadmill and because that's the way we've done it, that's the way we'll always do it. And then we have this moment where, that's. That's not the case now. And so you've stepped off the treadmill and you now have a moment to, let's just look around the environment a little bit.

Is there an opportunity here to, tweak this thing or that thing? Or people have been complaining about this way of doing things for a little while and Okay, that's really interesting. So the, we take a breath, everybody, and, and let's see where the project goes. But certainly two worthwhile articles.

If you, if you head again into the show notes for this Jeff Paul's article and, Aaron Ban's article, they will both be linked and you'll be able to draw your own conclusions from that. Now, the next thing in our show notes, I dunno if we want to cover, because it may be that this moment has been and gone by the time this podcast theirs, but it was the fact that WordPress 6.8 0.1, the release candidate is now available.

Sh should we just pass that one by and crack on with the next one? Yeah, I'm getting a couple of nods. Okay. And we, anyway, if you're listening to this, hopefully by now you're on WordPress 6.8 0.1. share your feedback. So the next one then, this is definitely gonna be, over to Fabian 10 Ops.

I'm going to try and say this, but for some reason I cannot get this word out of my mouth. class, classif, it's so obvious it's classified right, but I just can't say it for some reason 'cause of the way it's spelled. So it's C-L-A-S-S-I-F and then AI capitalized. it's a 10 op thing.

It's using La Lama or O Lama. And, I don't know very much about ai, so you're gonna have to just school me. What are you doing over there?

[00:56:23] Fabian Kaegy: Yeah, I, for this one actually, I'm interested to hear what BI has to say because she was the one that actually added to, to the document. But I'll give everybody the brief, brief intro. So, classify is a plugin that is an open source plugin available for anyone, that has been developed by tap. And it is a plugin that has a bunch of various features that integrates AI into your WordPress workflow with giving you all of the power for choosing what models you want to use for various features, which features you want to use in the first place, and then also kind of granular control to.

Change the prompts that are being used for all the various things. So for I'll, I always think of all of these AI features in two, two buckets. There's content generation features and there's kind of other features that are helping you organize your content and structure your content and that stuff. And classify kind of has a bit of both worlds.

Yes, there are features that allows you to generate new content, generate alternate versions of titles, generate alt text for images as you upload them, those kinds of things that are actually generating new content. But then there are also that, those are the bits that I'm much more excited about.

Features that allow you to automatically tag your content kind based on just reading the content. Based on knowing the tags and the site structure that you have, it automatically suggests additional tags in grouping, which kind of then make it easier to recommend content if there are. kind of ways to, to leverage it to get content recommendations, things to get better.

4 0 4 pages that drive up, kind of user engagement where you have a URL that doesn't actually exist and just instead of just showing you an empty 4 0 4 page, oops, nothing found, can actually detect via the text that is in the URL what you are trying to get to, and then recommend you some other content and stuff like that.

[00:58:30] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, that's.

[00:58:31] Fabian Kaegy: Those are kind of, we're not generating content, but rather just augmenting using the content that you already have to, to then make this whole system a little bit more smart. And then there are a bunch, bunch of different features that, that are all, all in that plugin. But the cool thing about it really is for every single feature, you can pretty much choose which model do you want?

Do you want to go with OpenAI? Do you want to go with something on Azure? Or, and I think this is the bit that, Birgit was excited about here. There was a recent release we did that now allows you to use Facebook's open source alama model that you can self-host and use that for your site. And so you can power of those various features by that ALAMA model, which actually then doesn't mean you're sending it to an arbitrary cloud somewhere, but you are in control.

You are hosting that and you are kind of only talking to your own server and to your own service and.

[00:59:26] Nathan Wrigley: That is interesting. Okay. Big over to you. Yeah, I think that was the part, the, I, I was experimenting with AI quite a bit and I realized that There are certain things that I. LMS to do, but it's the wrong application. And I, needed to do a, I actually need something what's called an AI agent. that's some, does something for me. And I knew that wasn't possible. and Alama is the first thing was alama is the piece where you can download any LMM system to your local system or self-host it. It can, it's, it, says LAA with a name from the Facebook, LMM, but you can download Misra or, other things, jet g Pity or, cloud kind of some of that. But it's, you, yeah.

[01:00:21] Birgit Pauli-Haack: The, part that really excited me was the, it's on the local system. You can actually then also, use some agents that do. Do things with your own data, and that's actually the next place. Yeah. You, if you have a big WooCommerce store, you can actually, use that data with the LMM and feed it in there and let it analyze your own data without sending all the data to the source, to the s the service, any server.

Yeah. And, expose all your e-commerce data, to the world. Yeah. You can just do it on your own, hosting. and that is actually the most important thing for me. if you wanna use AI for business reasons, that you need to actually add it to your own data that has been around for 10 or 15 years.

You have e-commerce data and now you have, tools in place that you can, analyze it with and look through it and then write. Silly little agents that do something with it, with your own data.

[01:01:32] Nathan Wrigley: There is something viewed, view viewed through a certain prism. There is something a bit big brother about a lot of these, these ais and I do sometimes question just how much data do they have? and how much are we willingly giving over? And will there be a moment where we suddenly think, oh, that was a mistake.

They've got all the things now. and so that's neat. Yeah. So the Alama model, you can self-host that and obviously if you're into the WordPress space, you probably have some alignment with self-hosting things. One would have thought so. Okay. That's really interesting. So again, links will be in the show notes all about, 10 ops new project class.

If I say it, Nathan, it's not that difficult. okay, so we've got two pieces to go. and the first one is a new product from, I'm gonna say web dev studios. I think I'm right. and it is called Theme Switcher, and I think it's actually called Theme Switcher Pro. I don't know that the word pro can be taken out of that.

And this is a, new product, I think, and it enables you to, who, would've thought that we wouldn't have this? It seems so obvious when you say it out loud. Two themes at the same time. maybe more than two, I dunno. But at least two themes at the same time, on the same website. I'll let that sink in.

because at the moment you can't do that. You, you just can't. And so now you'll be able to say, okay, this page, use that theme, this page, use that theme, these set of archives, we're gonna use that theme, and so on and so forth. And, it's just such a neat idea. so who put this one in?

[01:03:13] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I did as well because I was listening to, Brad Williams, and I had a, on my show, Gutenberg Change log, I had JC Palms who from web dev studios who, created one of the starter block themes for the agency, and we got talking and, I'm, since the beginning of Gutenberg, I'm thinking about migration. Yeah. How, can you move from a classic brain to a block theme? Block based theme brain, and it gets it. You are not gonna do it in one swoosh. It's just too

different of a paradigm. So if you can see one page at a time or one landing page at a time, so landing pages are probably the best way to do this because normally you switch off the header, you switch off the footer and just about that landing.

And if you have a theme, that allows that, on your site, then you can, use all the patterns, you can start variations, all that comes with the theme for your landing page and learn, pretty much how to create content with that. And, everything else on the site stays the same.

Yeah, and you can also say, okay, the most important page is actually a single post page. so if that's coming from another theme, you, can do a lot more than with, The classic theme because you can yeah, modify where the featured images on the template, you can modify where the post matter is. You can remove the author right away without having a developer.

So it's, you can do it one task at a time and leave the rest be and and move there from, every other month you maybe have a new feature on your site. So I like that is enabled through this plugin.

[01:05:12] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. At the moment everything's kind of binary. So it's this theme or this theme and okay, you could have a staging site, but it's still binary. You've still gotta complete the work before you go from staging back to live. So let's say you're going from classic theme to block-based theme. I wonder this, I, have no idea about the data on this, but I wonder how many people have given up on.

F, SE and, block-based themes because they couldn't go the full marathon. they maybe got halfway or they got a quarter of what they needed to do, done, but it was just like, ah, I'm done. I, just haven't got the time to put into that where, because, and that's sunk time. It's just lost time.

Whereas with this approach, all of that time is just adding more bricks into the wall because it's not like you've thrown anything away. All that time is useful because you can just say, okay, we'll switch those bits on and then in next week I'll do another little bit of the brick wall until I finally finished it.

And so I think that's an interesting, although the plugin isn't marketed like that, it feels like it's marketed more as two themes. It feels like it's this perfect migration opportunity, which maybe a lot of people have stepped away from. 'cause it just was, I don't know, too much work. get it finished.

[01:06:26] Fabian Kaegy: I will say I've always been impressed with the way that core actually handles just core itself. The gradual a, adoption of block themes under the hood. I don't think it's actually utilized much out there, but technically speaking, if you've ever developed a WordPress theme, you're familiar with the, theme hierarchy of, Hey, we have that index PHP template, that then if there is a single template it uses that instead, if there's a single blah, blah, blah, it uses that and so forth.

That there's that whole big diagram that we've all looked at way too many times of all of the various template names. And what I found fascinating when block page themes first were rolled out was instead of just. Replacing that entire, entire hierarchy with the new HTML based templates. It actually layered that on top of those so that instead of now looking for the single PHP and then index PHP, it looks first, has there single HTM l. If not it looks, is there a single PHP?

[01:07:30] Nathan Wrigley: So framework was there.

[01:07:31] Fabian Kaegy: It already kind of work core outta the box allows you to only have your single leadership if you have a custom post type single leadership template as a block template, but the rest of your page still as PHP based templates. So you were always able to mix and match the classic theme approach with the block theme approach in one theme.

Where it gets difficult though, is. You now have your header and your footer that kind of need to exist in both worlds, which is kind of difficult. And also a lot of times sites just use the page or the post post type for a bunch of things at once. That is where there just is one singular template and that either is block based or it is not block based.

That is where I think this plugin is filling in that gap where you can now do this on a page by page basis rather than just on a whole post type by post type basis, which for for many sites still was too big of a jump. And also it was something that you really needed to be a developer for, to understand that whole template hierarchy and how to deal with all those things.

And so definitely think this is a really cool, cool way to kind of solve that problem.

[01:08:48] Nathan Wrigley: I did not know that. So that's really interesting. I learned so much on these podcast episodes, but that one, was great. So I didn't realize that infrastructure was there. That one, basically you could swap one out for the other at HDML versus PHP. Didn't realize that.

[01:09:04] Fabian Kaegy: Yeah, and even if you just have a default block theme, if you use any of the default themes or ALI or any of those block based themes, but then you have a custom post app or a custom template that you need to all of a sudden pull in some external data that is stored in Airtable or something that just is completely, yeah, completely not block based.

Yeah. I today would choose to just build a block that pulls in that data and use that in the block theme, but you could just go in and create that single PHP template file, and because of the template hierarchy, it would just use that if there isn't an HTML version of that template. And so you can very easily just use A-T-P-H-P template as you always were able to do in the past in these block-based themes.

[01:09:56] Nathan Wrigley: That's absolutely fascinating. That's really interesting. gosh, that's brilliant. I'm gonna be chatting to Brad, in the next week or so. And then, so if this portion of this podcast has intrigued you, keep, an eye out for that episode. it'll drop in the weeks to come.

[01:10:13] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yeah, I would think that plugin, it's, a premium plugin and it has a relatively high price tag for yearly subscriptions. So I think it's marketed to agencies that wanna help, bigger customers or clients sites to actually move gradually, over. I think it's not so much for, the, for people who have, wanna have different season pages or something like that.

[01:10:43] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Yeah.

[01:10:44] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Because you can do this always with a style variation and you're done with it. Yeah.

[01:10:48] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. That was interesting. So like I said, Brad will be joining us at some point in the near future. Keep an eye out for that. And the last one that we've got is the release create block theme plugin, 2.7 0.0. Not sure that there's too many minutes worth in here, but, the create block, let me get this right, the create block theme plugin, 2.7 0.0.

It's obviously migrated over from 2.6 or X at some point. what's happened?

[01:11:19] Birgit Pauli-Haack: it has did, a lot of code, quality fixes and some, polish on the sidebar buttons. but I think the major thing is that it now also escaped the image and the video block. Captions the, figured, fig caption. so it, you can have any, there were some bugs in there. And, when you export it, that it's now, giving you the right text in there, when, you, load it into a new site. or when you load it, downloaded as a theme. So that, I think that's the only thing, grade block theme is actually, something for non-developers to grade new themes, or modify themes because it copies everything that's in the database through custom styles from the site editor back into the theme files, be it the, JSO file or template file or pattern files.

that's why I, think the grade block theme is pretty much the, major improvements, for non coders to grade.

[01:12:28] Fabian Kaegy: And I will even add to that, I wouldn't develop a custom block-based theme without the create block plug, create block theme plugin as a developer because no one wants and can really hand author all of the block. Grammar in those HTML files of templates. Rather, what we are doing is we're building custom blocks, we're extending blocks, we're writing custom CSS, we're building that seven theme Jason, but the actual creation of templates that happens visually in the site editor and then reuse that tool to actually save those changes back to disk so that we can commit it to version control, that we can put it up to GitHub and use all of that stuff.

But that plugin really is the crucial thing that made adopting block-based themes as, as developers even possible. So I, I would very much say yes, it is super useful for, for users that don't consider themselves developers, but it's also an absolutely essential thing for developers.

[01:13:28] Nathan Wrigley: Democratizing publishing. Here we go. Yeah, that's and design. There you go. That's what it's all about. So we've reached the end of our list. I'm hoping, dear listener, there was an awful lot in there. We definitely covered an awful lot of ground. So at the moment this is released, it'll probably go out at the beginning of May, 2025.

Keep your eyes, ears, probably it's a podcast. Keep your ears open. And hopefully in a few months time, I will be joined by these fabulous people once more to sum up what's happened. It'll be a different landscape. We'll obviously not be, moving into the sort of six point nines and sevens and as we discussed, but let's see how WordPress develops over the next months.

But all I can say is thank you so much Fabian Kaegy, and Birgit Pauli-Haack, really appreciate you joining me today. Thank you so much.

[01:14:15] Fabian Kaegy: Thank you for having us.

[01:14:15] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Thank you.

[01:14:16] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, I hope that you enjoyed that. That's all I've got for you this week. It would be very interesting to know what you thought about that. Birgit and Fabian obviously bringing a wealth of expertise, talking all about the bits and pieces that have happened in WordPress over the last three months or so.

Hopefully I will be joined by them for the fourth At the Core episode at some point in the future. But head to wpbuilds.com, search for episode number 421. And leave us a comment there.

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And sincere thanks go to GoDaddy Pro, Bluehost and Omnisend, for their support of the WP Builds podcast.

Okay, just before I fade in the cheesy music, it only remains for me to say remember, we've got the Page Builder Summit happening between the 12th and the 16th of May. Come and join us, pagebuildersummit.com. We would love for you to join, share your expertise, join the community, and find out what's going on. You never know, you might even be able to win some prizes in our bingo as well.

All right, then here comes some cheesy music to round out this episode. It really is dreadfully cheesy.

I hope that you have a good week. Stay safe. Bye-bye for now.