This Week in WordPress #315

[00:00:04] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this week in WordPress, episode number 315, entitled a bigger bag and fewer cats. It was recorded on Monday the 18th of November, 2024.

My name's Nathan Wrigley, and I will be joined today by my co-host Michelle Frechette, but also by Tim Nash and Louise Towler.

It is a WordPress podcast, so we spent absolutely ages not talking about WordPress at the beginning.

We talk about social networks, Bluesky, and all of that kind of thing.

And then we get into the details of the WordPress 6.7 release. There is absolutely loads in here, and hopefully you've been experimenting with it, because it's now out in the wild.

We also talk about some new materials out to help you find all of the learn resources on a nice calendar.

We also talk about CommandUI and turbo admin, some new plugins, which do a very similar job in a very similar space.

And Black Friday gets mentioned as well, and the WP Builds Black Friday page.

And then Tim Nash gets very serious about a plugin vulnerability affecting over 4 million WordPress websites. And this really genuinely is a proper serious problem.

It's all coming up next on this week. In WordPress.

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Hello. Hello. Howdy. How you doing? how I never say howdy. What the heck? just looking inside WordPress. And there it was. So I said it, it's this week in WordPress number 315. I'm never sure if that number's right. I in a cavalier way. Remember what was last week and type it in. It could be bigger, it could be smaller, I don't know.

But it's about that episode number 315. thank you for joining us. We see as a few people in the chat, if you would like to join us today, you'd be most appreciative. I think the best way to do that is to drive people, in this direction. Let me get the link right. There we go. It's just nestling beautifully on the Tim Nash's chin at the moment.

wp builds.com/live. Once more, wp builds.com/live. Gone. Go and paste it in your platform of choice. We'll be talking about that in a bit and, and encourage people to come and say hi. It's lovely when they do over there though, we've got an embedded video and the video is embedded from the platform, but it's also going out on YouTube live.

And I think most people actually watch it over on YouTube. I'm not entirely sure, but if you do want to comment, wp builds.com/live, there's a YouTube box, but if you don't want to, there's a little live chat within the video itself. Top right little black button. It says live chat. You can go in there and then you don't need to be logged into a leviathan of a tech giant in California, the likes of Google and things like that.

so that's the way to do that. and I'm very grateful I. I am joined by three fabulous people today. Let me just get their bios out. Here we go. First one is down in the corner, I think, down there. It's, co-host today, Michelle Frechette. Hello, Michelle.

[00:05:06] Michelle Frechette: Hello. I almost said good morning, and then I remember it's only morning for me and not the three of you.

[00:05:11] Nathan Wrigley: It is definitely the afternoon. and Michelle Frechette is the Director of Community Engagement for Stella WP at Liquid Web. In addition to the work at Stella WP Michelle is the podcast [email protected]. Co-founder of underrepresented in tech.com, creator of wp speakers.com and also WP Career pages, the executive [email protected], she also hosts the co-hosts rather, the WP Motivate Podcast and the WP Constellations Podcast.

She is an author, a frequent organizer, and speaker at WordPress events, and she lives outside of Rochester, New York, where she's an avid, neat. Photographer and last URL. If you wanna learn more about Michelle, she has a dedicated website for that one called Meet Michelle Online. That's, you've trimmed that back a bit, I think.

I feel

[00:06:04] Michelle Frechette: I did. It felt a little ostentatious. in writing, it's one thing, but to hear you say it every other week is, oh,

[00:06:09] Nathan Wrigley: okay. Yeah, exactly. It's a bit much. Yeah. Okay. What we, need is like a Bitly short link for all of them. Go here and you can see all the people. We can probably just

[00:06:17] Michelle Frechette: take off the dot coms.

oh,

[00:06:19] Nathan Wrigley: that's a, yeah, that's a good idea. I'll check that. Anyway, there we go. Thank you for all of your hard work and thank you for joining us. Once more. We also have down. There, is Tim. Tim Nash. How you doing, Tim? Hello? It just started snowing. nice. Ooh, nice. I love it when it snows. I know. That's like childish, but it is.

Oh, it's so cool. I just love it. And we very rarely get it in, the UK these days. When I was a kid, I remember we used to get like whole loads of it and, not anymore global warming. It's a thing. Okay, that's, we're all nodding. Good. I think we can all agree. Tim Nash, though is joining us from snowy Yorkshire.

Not that far. I think we worked out is about 40 miles. that, that way you'd be out that, yeah. That way. Okay. I pointing at each other over the, now Tim has done something a little bit different. Tim has, Tim has penned a poem. For his biography today. And so I'm gonna, that I stood, I'm gonna read it out.

Here we go. there once was a nam named, oh, I've messed it up already. There was a nam, start again, Here we go. There once was a man named Tim Nash, whose warnings were known to be brash in WordPress. He gloom a doom, speaker of gloom, but his insights are security stash. It gets better, with hackers.

He'd deftly outplay and keep WordPress woes at bay, be it one or a crowd. He'd speak fierce and proud though. Sometimes he just gets in the way.

Yeah. Who says

[00:07:57] Michelle Frechette: developers aren't creative? Yeah.

[00:07:59] Nathan Wrigley: I said, was that the GPT or was that the Nash? And he said it was a bit of both. Yeah.

[00:08:05] Tim Nash: it's really difficult. I, do speaker of gloom and I was like. It's weird. I got that line and it's I was like, now what times with gloom? So it's this is a good case of Hey chat bbc.

Yeah. I have the following lines. Fill in the other bits.

[00:08:21] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, Anyway, I, think Brilliant. Thank you. You always turn up with something a bit good, with these kind of bios. That's really nice. Let's get to thee Louise Towner over there. Is this the first time you've been on the show? Louise?

[00:08:32] Louise Towler: I think it might be.

Yes. Yes. Louise, thank you very much for the invite.

[00:08:37] Nathan Wrigley: You're very welcome, Louise. And I've met absolutely loads of times in person, but never on a show such as this. so here we go. This is the intro that you've not had before. Louise is the MD of Ingo Tree. You can see that on the, on the little, what is that?

The little lower third or something? a WordPress design and development agency with expertise in website strategy, content creation and technical SEO for business, nonprofits, agencies, and schools across the uk. Ooh, that's an interesting pivot. With over 30 years of experience in software and website development, Louise has grown Indigo Tree over the last decade, driven by her passion for technology and business, and an enthusiasm to deliver the best results to clients.

Louise is also the founder of Canopy, also in the Lower Third, an innovative plugin for WordPress that helps organizations measure and reduce their website's carbon footprint. And I know that's been keeping you very busy in the more recent months. It has. Yeah. Yeah, it has

[00:09:30] Louise Towler: indeed.

[00:09:30] Nathan Wrigley: Yep. let's just, let's move on and, let's talk about the word pressy stuff from this week.

But there's our panel. Thank you very much for joining us. If you are dropping in the chat. Oh gosh. Wow. Okay. there's a few, let's just go through a few quickly. James is joining us and he says hello. Good morning. hello indeed. Courtney's joining us as well. Thank you very much, Tammy. Oh, good afternoon.

I have a fresh chai with vanilla and oat milk. What is everybody? Brilliant. And then it got into the drinks, didn't it? Michelle Colo. Yeah. Colombian Medium Brew with Italian Sweet Cream. That sounds nice. I replied with Lem Sip. I, Lem sips like this thing full of paracetamol to make you feel less rubbish.

I've got a bit of a man flu, so basically I'm dying. Tim, can identify, I'm sure. Yeah. Oh, it's terrible. okay. I have maple tea in hand, says Courtney and Cozy Cardi of the Day Award. Yeah, I wish I had an award for that, but it would definitely go to Tim Big. It's joining us. She says hello.

Gorgeous folks. Peppermint tea for me already had enough caffeine today. I do like this idea of doing drinks at the beginning. This is a great idea. and tell, recommend Tim gets himself a pipe.

[00:10:45] Michelle Frechette: You don't have smoke it, you just it Yeah, just.

[00:10:50] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I think it could

[00:10:50] Michelle Frechette: be a bubble pipe. You could have bubbles in it.

I like

[00:10:53] Nathan Wrigley: it. James, he says he's got a tea as well, and a leaf in my hand had to clean the back deck just now. Tea is the one, tea is winning out. I thought it a coffee on my way. Was, this is a good old

[00:11:05] Tim Nash: Yorkshire tea in here.

[00:11:07] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, did you hear Louise and Tim? This will mean something to you. I'm sorry, Michelle.

It won't Ty fu. Has gone bankrupt. Yes. Yes. Fu the Tea Manufacturing company for had brilliant ads when I was a kid with these cartoon characters all dressed in like caps and like science overalls and things. They've gone sadly, so you can't, what is it? Only get an Who with Ty Fu and not advertising that tea brand that doesn't exist anymore.

Good Morning says Kami and Reese and Patricia as well. What else have we got? Nippy here. It's definitely cold here and we haven't had Peter Ingersol who usually joins us, so I hope he's all right. Hi from Washington DC says, Ian and Tammy

[00:11:50] Michelle Frechette: agrees with me. Yeah, she's,

[00:11:52] Nathan Wrigley: oh my God. Please let it be a bubble pipe, like the Caterpillar and Alice in Wonderland.

Okay, Tim, you now have some homework.

[00:11:59] Michelle Frechette: DD DM me your address, Tim, I think I have something coming in the mail to you soon.

[00:12:06] Nathan Wrigley: That'd be great. And Kami. All right. Kamie doing it. Check it out. She's on a treadmill. Kami, I'm gonna, I'm, thinking about the same thing. I, at the minute I have this fixed desk, it's basically an old piece of a kitchen work surface that I repurposed as my desk.

It spans the width of the room. I'm thinking of getting one of those standing desks, where you push a button and it Oh, yeah. Goes up and down and then putting a treadmill underneath it. in all honesty, what will happen is I'll just put a chair on the treadmill and turn the treadmill off, but at least I'll have a treadmill that I can say that I'm on.

But I like it. I like the idea of doing that. Enough of that. Let's get onto the word pressy stuff. here we go. This is our website, wp builds.com. if you wanna keep in touch with what we do, put your email address in there, and click subscribe and we'll send you a couple of emails each week.

Number one will be when this podcast episode comes out. 'cause what we do is we do it live now, and then I repurpose it as a podcast episode and it comes out at. Stupid o'clock tomorrow morning. So that'd be the first email. And the second email will be on Thursday when we do our regular podcast episode.

If you scroll down on the right here is always this show. So that was last week's one. And then over on the left here is the podcast episode. You'll hear about that on, Thursday as well. And I'll just let you know what we did there. That was me and Ray, excuse me, Ray Moray from the, repository. And we, we are doing this show every three months.

I'm doing one with Tim as well, all about security, but it hasn't come around to its second episode yet. But the second one of this has come around and it's called What Just Happened. And the idea was that every three months we'd talk about what had happened in the WordPress space. And both Ray and I thought, yeah, a few things will happen every three months or so.

We did the first show and then the last three months, good grief, we could have talked for quite a long time, but we managed to distill it into about 45 minutes. So you can go and check that out. Episode number 300 and gosh, that's close to 400, isn't it? I should probably do something significant at 400, miss it out entirely and go straight for 4 0 1, just to confound things.

Anyway, there you go. That's that. And the last thing I want to mention about OS WP Builds is that white screen no. Is is this, is our Black Friday deals page. It's at wp builds.com/black, or you can click this, we're now on 303 deals. It makes the scroll bar really tiny. Look at that. and we've got all the Black Friday deals, basically in the WordPress space on here.

So if you have a product or service and you wanna stick it on this page, just click this, add a deal button. We'll stick it on. It doesn't cost anything. It's just totally free. and if you find a broken link, please click that. But also if you wanna just search and filter things, then you use that button instead.

Give us a plugin. Let's see if it's on. Offer one of you three. Give wp. Okay, let's go. Give, let's try give and then click return. Let's see. I'm hopeful. There we go. Look, let's give WP Yeah. Nice. 30% off. Give WP starts already started. 1st of November. That begin. It's

[00:15:13] Michelle Frechette: all month. Yeah.

[00:15:13] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. You've got until the 30th of November.

Any others you want to give a try to? Anybody Ula? let's try. Oh, do

[00:15:24] Michelle Frechette: Ws form for Mark. Okay.

[00:15:26] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Okay. Let's do Ws form. I dunno if the significance of the space there is important. Yeah. There you go. Look. There you go. that one begins on the 25th and runs for, looks like a couple of weeks or something.

6th of December. I. And you can go and get it by clicking this button. Also, we've got some sponsor slots at the top and Ws form is a sponsor, as is real cookie banner and gravity forms. And if you fancy taking one of these little sponsor slots at the bottom, then click this get started button and we'll get you on board.

This page gets a boat loader traffic during the run up to, join the run up to Black Friday. So once more, wp builds.com/black. if like me. You have decided that Twitter is an interesting place that you're not that bothered about being involved in, then this could be quite interesting. I had no intuition that this was gonna happen, but it looks like a lot of WordPresses have made the jump.

I'm guessing there's a connection with US politics. I've gotta imagine that's the only catalyst. But, this week the amount of people in the WordPress space over on Blue Sky has really gone through the roof. And I set my account up a long time ago and obviously set the notifications to on, I didn't realize I'd done that.

And then about Wednesday this week, just starting to get notified that people were beginning to follow me and it's gone berserk.

[00:16:49] Michelle Frechette: It really has.

[00:16:50] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Okay. So same thing for you, Michelle. yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And, my opinion is that just like everything in the world, it, will have a time where it's fruitful and enjoyable and, the grass is green and it won't last forever.

But right now it really is a, very different experience. There's no algorithm in there. One of the nice things that you can do is you can set your account handle to be a domain that you own. You just add a text record to your DNS. so you know, for I could be wp builds.com. I actually went with nathan wrigley.com in the end.

'cause I thought that's kind of divorce from any, thing. I could just be whatever I want it to be. But you can do that if you want as well. And the conversation is pretty broad and deep at the moment. Lots of WordPresses out there. And it's got this neat thing called a starter pack where you can sign up to Blue Sky and one of the onboarding questions is what are you interested in?

And rather than it being algorithmic, you pick something that somebody has curated and I've curated a list of what I'm calling WordPresses, so you can find that. And then I've, there's about a hundred and, I don't know, maybe there's a hundred people on there that are just on blue sky already that are using, WordPress and posting about WordPress.

and in that way you can then just follow those people if

[00:18:09] Louise Towler: you're, into it. I joined at the weekend, found you, and then basically followed everyone in your starter pack. Oh, nice. Okay. Yeah. And I've already had a few follows back despite the fact I haven't posted any yet. And one of them.

yeah, exactly. But it was just a nice way to get started. That was really nice.

[00:18:27] Nathan Wrigley: I think the. Go on, Michelle. I apologize.

[00:18:29] Michelle Frechette: I went from three followers last week because I hadn't posted anything to 483 followers today.

[00:18:36] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that's, it's insane. Yeah, it's insane, right? Yeah.

[00:18:39] Tim Nash: I'm quite happy with my three followers on my,

[00:18:41] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, come on Tim.

Doing it.

[00:18:44] Tim Nash: What you need is more social media account. My life.

[00:18:47] Nathan Wrigley: What you need is a pipe, a picture of you with a pipe. That'll boost. That'll boost things, I'm sure. but it's very nice at the moment. The UI is. Literally the same as Twitter. If you've been logging in without some sort of third party app and you've just been inside a Twitter, it is just basically the same.

and everything's exactly as you'd expect. There's a few, lots of missing stuff really from Twitter, but I think the less al algorithmic approach is quite nice. yeah, blue Sky I think you go to, yeah, it's BSKY, so B Sky app and yeah. There you go. anybody wanna add anything to that?

I thought that was interesting. No, I'm just

[00:19:31] Michelle Frechette: posting the same thing in seven different social channels. So

[00:19:35] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. I don't know what we do about that, to be honest. That is my concern with all of these things is that You basically just shatter your attention across all the things, don't you?

And that's one of the things I, that I like about the Fedi verse is that, everything can be somehow federated, so you don't need to worry about that. And my understanding is that I think they call it the, AT protocol, it's a capital A, capital T, but obviously, giving a nod to the at sign the at or at protocol that Blue Sky have as the backbone of their technology. I think that is intended. Maybe it does already, to federate with things like Mastodon. And Pixel Fed and other, activity, pub style protocols as well. So hopefully we're going into a space where we can, curate our own things a little bit more.

Just

[00:20:25] Michelle Frechette: remember that the thing about marketing is you meet your customers where they are. So if you still have customers across all the areas, you still wanna be advertising across all the areas.

[00:20:34] Nathan Wrigley: Across areas. Okay. Yeah, it's a good point. I, find that really hard just to keep the interest going. So I end up with, with apps which just send out the information to all the different platforms.

But a lot of them have had to pull because of the APIs restrictions from Facebook, they've had to pull Facebook groups. And then more recently, the one that I use is called er. It's been really good. But they got a bill for Twitter. Their bill for the Twitter API access is $45,000.

a week. A week. Oh, okay. Maybe it's a month. Okay, let's go with months. It's still an eye watering amount of money. Yeah. Yeah. So they've had to, withdraw their Twitter support u unless you pay a fee. And the fee is fairly significant compared to what you might, anyway. So the point being that all of those things just, I don't know, they don't sit great with me, to be honest.

to

[00:21:28] Michelle Frechette: answer your earlier question though, yes, it is very much tied to the US politics and Elon Musk's being named to the, the cabinet for the incoming. President.

[00:21:40] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Okay. So lots of people moving over there. and just to keep the conversation about treadmills going, 'cause that's what we were all thinking about.

Tammy has a standing desk best decision ever. Do you have a treadmill under it though, Tammy? that's the bit that I wanna know. what I should get is a chair with wheels on it. And then get the treadmill going and the, chair can just tro along on top and I'll feel really good about myself.

if Tim gets a bubble pipe, says Courtney. He must also recite the jabber walkie to

[00:22:15] Tim Nash: beware the jab can do it.

The catch? Oh no, I can't remember. Something about a Banda match.

[00:22:23] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's brilliant. okay. you need a good episode for 4 0 4 Oh no, that one I'm just not showing up. Just gonna, leave the room. also consider the fed averse. Yes. You can even own your own social media activity pod plugin for WordPress.

That is absolutely true. My, my opinion of that, Patricia has changed more recently and I've got to the point where I. I, I want somebody else to do the handling of the infrastructure of the social media for me. So that's why Blue Sky is seeming so appealing, whereas the activity pub thing, and I had a MAs on install for eight for three, four years or something like that, three years, something like that.

And I just, it, I don't know. I just don't want to, I own people's data in that way or have to deal with it and things. no treadmill. Oh darn. There we go. there we go. Oh, you're at the gym. Oh, I thought you're at home. Oh, that's less exciting. I'm so sorry. Of course, there's a treadmill at the gym. I get it right.

You're watching. Hang on. Wait. You're watching this at the gym. What the heck, Marcus, I'm guessing on her phone. Yeah. This is amazing. I'm very, surprised. Thank you so much. Kami Marcus Burnett once watched it on a plane, which was gobsmacking, frankly.

[00:23:43] Tim Nash: Are we on slow or too fast?

[00:23:45] Nathan Wrigley: What's that?

Say

[00:23:46] Tim Nash: that again. We need to have a tempo going and get, keeping a beat.

[00:23:51] Louise Towler: I find, the gym very boring. So actually watching podcasts I think is a great activity to do at the gym. And yeah, when,

[00:23:58] Nathan Wrigley: I first started this podcast, I asked for it. I was about 20 weeks in or something like that, and I asked for people's commentary and, dog bell chamber who, was a.

Com community member, but doesn't really occupy the WordPress space. He just said, he just sent me the slightly pithy comment. It's the perfect cure for insomnia. That's what he wrote, which I put on the website. okay. So she says, Hey, this isn't easy. I'm so sorry, Kami. I didn't mean to be facetious.

We're, we're very grateful for your participation. Okay. Let's get stuck into the actual WordPresses stuff for this. Oh, no. Quickly, apropos of that, actually, this is blue sky about Twitter. Really. And then I thought, this is an interesting pivot. the Guardian, which is a UK paper, you can see it here.

it's fairly left-leaning. So this isn't a great deal of surprise in all honesty. But, it's got a significant reach in the uk. It's very popular, has a really credible website and presence, and they've decided that they're no longer. gonna post, and I think it's quite a hit. If I remember rightly, they've got 80 accounts, across, x I'm guessing for, sport and politics or whatever else, with 27 million followers.

But they've made the, decision to step away from x and I presume it's to, to do with the, political angle. So it'd be interesting to see if X grows in popularity. I was chatting to somebody the other day who knows this kind of stuff inside out and apparently X has grown, in the more recent past.

So there's a

[00:25:33] Michelle Frechette: lot of bots too though. and last week it fact checked Elon Musk and told and said that he was posting things that were wrong. His own, his own, platform fact him. So that was funny.

[00:25:48] Louise Towler: I would imagine as well, the moderation that they have to do on the comments about some of their articles might be another reason.

[00:25:56] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, yeah. Interesting. Anyway, they've taken the principle decision not to, to go on X anymore. I think my intuition is that I will slowly but surely move away from X, but we'll see. Okay. Onto some WordPress stuff. Finally, we're only half an hour in. We haven't really talked about WordPress, but there you go.

How we roll. Sometimes here it is the shiny new. WordPress 6.7 named after Rolands. Who was, what was his, the actual name? It just says code name. Rolands. Sonny, Sonny Rollins. Sony Sonny or Sonny? roll Rollins. Not Rollins. Okay. I'm showing my Britishness. I don't care much for, for the jazz metaphors going down all the time, but here we go.

Here's what's new. we've got this fabulous new theme, 2025, and it's got it feels like the nichey theme. It's got like loads of different niches that you can click buttons to invoke. I won't go into that because we've done that a lot. the controversial, I think, zoom out mode, which, is invoked with this little button here.

If you're watching it, there's a little button fairly close to the published button and it's, a little black square with two, arrows pointing away from each other. zoom out. It's like a pinch to zoom kind of thing. And and I've noticed on my WordPress install, I dunno if I've done something wrong.

when I drop a pattern in the zoom is invoked and so I immediately go into the zoom out interface, which is not what I would want. So I haven't yet figured out how to switch that off. I'm still currently dropping patterns in and I'm zoomed in. Luckily, I knew to click the zoomed out button. But you were saying Louise, it's just another pain point for your clients to It's,

[00:27:40] Louise Towler: yeah, we, build all our sites with the block editor, real big fans of it.

Our clients love it. What in the backend is what in the front end and we do training with them. We do a minimum of a 45 minute to an hour online call showing them how to use the block editor and getting them familiar with it before the site's launched. Sometimes some of our clients are putting, content in as part of that as well.

And anything which changes the way the block editor works, I know for a fact we'll get clients very confused about why it's suddenly behaving differently. And then we'll also get some clients who will just end up calling our support help desk or, getting in touch and it, if it's on by default and I have to say I haven't tested it yet myself, then it is just one of those things where I'd prefer to curate it and send out an email and just say, if you want to have this feature, this is how you turn it on, rather than have to explain to people how to turn it off or even if it.

Can be turned off because it seems quite an opinionated thing to do.

[00:28:45] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. what I have is a fairly gigantic pattern. it really is. It's it's, yeah. Like really from top to bottom it's Yeah. if you imagine it in a four size, it'd be like two a four bits of paper shop next to each other.

So it's fairly big. So I don't dunno if it's opinion, if it's made a judgment that well, it would be nice to see all of that, because you can't see it as just, it's not just like a row or, I don't know. Yeah. Some little thing. I dunno if it's that, but certainly the first, I just assumed there was some mistake to begin with and because I knew what to do, I just clicked the button and it went away.

But hopefully for, maybe somebody can tell me in the comments, maybe that's just not a thing when you drop patterns in that happens. but the interface, I love it. It's just the fact that it invokes itself. But I think it's an absolutely brilliant UI strategy for getting people to see the bigger picture.

Yeah, because you can see a ton, right off the bat. And if, like me, you can be working on a teeny tiny little Mac with a tiny screen. You really are constrained by what you can do. And this just drops away, gives you a nice overall look, and you can reposition things, drag that whole row up and down.

I, that's the

[00:29:58] Louise Towler: nice thing. I think especially a lot of the designs nowadays that we are doing essentially a lot of patterns, a rows of content. And really it's very easy in the block editor, and one of the things we set it on is really easy to drag things up and down. You don't have to change any templates.

You can just pop things in, but sometimes you clients can get a bit lost about where they are. And I think seeing that overview within the editor rather than having to preview is a benefit. And also sometimes putting patterns in, if you've accidentally placed your. You cursor in the wrong place and then going to insert a pattern, sometimes it can go in the wrong place.

Yep. So being able to preview, it's, again, it's an easy way of, moving it to the right place. So I don't disagree with having it, it's just that change to what people are currently used to. That's always a little bit wearing.

[00:30:49] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Tim, Michelle, anything on just that one feature?

[00:30:53] Tim Nash: I was gonna say, I think that the way it's working is how it's intended to.

So it, nine times outta 10, it won't expand out and it only expands out if you are, if what you are looking at, if you drop a pattern that is greater than the screen size right. And it's done so that you realize that there's stuff below which If that, I'm pretty sure that's what it was intended to do.

And if it is, it's actually really useful. Yeah. If you are putting a new pattern, not necessarily a pattern that you like, I'm just dragging this on and then I'm going to do my next thing. I don't need to worry about it. But if you're dragging a pattern you might not have used before on, and you drop it on and you might not realize, and you go and publish your page and there's a bunch of law and lipsom just under the fold.

Yeah. Because you didn't realize that was a bit, you were meant to edit. So I can see why you'd have it zoom out and the idea that you can just go, woo. It. the fact that it ha it doesn't make a sound effect, I think is the biggest issue. Yeah. It go, no, they've missed

[00:31:54] Nathan Wrigley: a trick there that would Yeah.

And especially that sound as well. That's, I'd love that. Yeah. Chop something into water.

[00:32:02] Michelle Frechette: That's great. That'd be awesome. The,

[00:32:04] Nathan Wrigley: it reminds me of a, like an email builder, like MailChimp or something like that where you there's just plenty of space on the left and the right. Yeah.

And you just see the tiny thin column usually, 600 pixels for an email or something like that. But it feels like that. And, okay. So in my case where I've dropped in these patterns, it's. Behaving as one might expect. And it's honestly, it's not that hard. You just click the black button.

Which is then invoked in the top right hand corner. Maybe there's a way for me to switch that off, but like you say, Louise, I think it'll replace for me the viewing, as a preview. I think I'll just click in that button and, and that'll be that, okay. Anyway, sorry, this is a bigger article on that.

So that's the, zoomed out view. Nice feature. okay, so this, I, wish we'd had this for the longest time. custom blocks, sorry. Connect blocks and custom fields with no hassle or code. I'll just quickly read it 'cause it does a better job. this feature introduces a new UI for connecting blocks to custom fields, putting control of dynamic content directly in the editor, link blocks with fields in just a few clicks.

Enhancing flexibility and efficiency when building your clients will love you as if they already didn't. so you can imagine it, you've got a custom fields plugin, I don't know, something like a CF, something like that. And you wanna just map those fields onto your. Page or post or template or whatever it is.

Now, you can do it inside a WordPress without a custom fields plugin to do that. But Tim, there were, was it you Tim, or was it you Louise, before we hit record? There was some sort of constraints around this. I can't remember what you said something about. No, it wasn't me. no, it wasn't you. Apologies.

[00:33:42] Louise Towler: no. I think, this is a good thing that I think it would be nice if custom. Were by default in there. 'cause often we, the types of content we have on sites, which have a lot of custom fields tend to be content with a lot of structure to it. for example, a team member will have a custom post type and there'll be a job title and a LinkedIn link.

And, the fact that custom post types aren't natively in WordPress means that for us, this is helpful, but actually it doesn't solve that bigger problem of getting that custom data in the first place to be able to then use it in the block.

[00:34:23] Tim Nash: Okie dokie. So I just used a plugin to do just this.

Yeah.

[00:34:28] Louise Towler: exactly. Yeah.

[00:34:31] Tim Nash: I had a scenario where I wanted lots of dynamic data coming in to lots of posts, and in the end I used, generate blocks, which has its custom dynamic bits in it.

[00:34:44] Nathan Wrigley: Yep.

[00:34:45] Tim Nash: which I, this will take away that need for that we still don't have, what would I think is still like the killer feature, which is to do like in line, inside a block, be able to say, I just want to replace one word in a paragraph.

Oh, we did

[00:35:01] Nathan Wrigley: exactly that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:02] Tim Nash: and that's, there's been like previews of that and I think it's called, I think Bits was a name for it. bits. Excellent. Tammy comments? I'm pretty sure it was either Tammy wanted it named Bits or it was gonna be Bit, and I can't remember which.

[00:35:16] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. But

[00:35:16] Tim Nash: maybe she can tell us if, that's its official name or not.

But until we've got that. This is nice, but it's really clunky to work with.

[00:35:25] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. You get the, you get the option of, I, I think I'm sure I did play with it at some point. I think you get a prefix in a suffix or something like that, but then you don't get to expand it out and say hi.

And then, I don't know, in insert custom field name,

[00:35:39] Tim Nash: I ended up using an awful lot of rose.

[00:35:42] Nathan Wrigley: okay. Yeah. And then it's not

[00:35:43] Tim Nash: the right way to do it, but it was the way I could do it.

[00:35:47] Nathan Wrigley: Tammy says, it wasn't my naming, but I wanted it to be gold bits. yeah, that's, I as good as anything else.

Honestly. The, with the, I'm gonna use a complicated word, the nomenclature that we've been throwing around in WordPress recently. we've, we should settle on something and bits is easy to spell, so let's go with that, shall we? okay. So that's a nice, feature though. If you've got some fairly basic stuff at the moment that you wanna put into custom fields, you can do it in core.

Your WordPress website out of the box can do it. if you're into fonts, there's now a new style section and new possibilities. One nice feature that I spotted on a video from Jamie Marlin, I'll mention that in a minute, is, is the ability to now. play with the fonts and the website designs, colors, et cetera, separately in the ui.

So you can play with the fonts, but not the colors. but the colors can be separate. They've been separated out basically in the ui and it, allows you to do those two things separately. So that's really nice. performance, faster, faster pattern loading, optimize previews and the data views component, improve PHPH support.

Quite a bit of deprecated code removed or auto sizes for lazy loaded images, more efficient

[00:37:02] Louise Towler: things. That's really helpful. Yeah. Nice.

[00:37:04] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. What the lazy load images bit?

[00:37:06] Louise Towler: Yeah, just the general, there's a, there's some really interesting geeky technical performance improvements that will definitely help some of our clients.

That's a real big bonus.

[00:37:17] Nathan Wrigley: Nice. The final one mentioned here was efficient tag processing in the H-T-M-L-A-P-I and then 65 accessibility fixes and enhancements focusing, the arrest is just marketing speech basically. so there we go, Tim. Michelle Louise, anything to add on that first piece?

Really

[00:37:36] Michelle Frechette: just excited to explore it more.

[00:37:37] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, there's a lot to explore. Yeah. This will keep you going for weeks. speaking of which, if you wanted to get the skinny, let's do the short version first. Jamie Marsland did a video, called WordPress 6.7 in 250 seconds, and, no surprises. It takes 250 seconds to watch the video and he, he highlights the top features plus something, which has been in WordPress for a few more versions.

But that's really great if his, channel Jamie wp, so youtube.com/at Jamie wp, that's a really quick way of getting some intel. But then if you wanna watch the longer version, the official 6.7 release video is with Rich Table. and it's. Not that much longer. It's only two minutes.

[00:38:24] Michelle Frechette: It's half the time the way around.

[00:38:26] Nathan Wrigley: Oh

[00:38:26] Michelle Frechette: no, sorry. It's half the time. Yeah.

[00:38:28] Nathan Wrigley: Do you know what, do you know what's weird about that? I, for some reason, had in my head that this was a really long, anyway, forget that. I thought it was short the

[00:38:35] Michelle Frechette: seconds, but it's not the seconds. Got you. You're like two 50 seconds. That has be less than two minutes.

But I also

[00:38:39] Nathan Wrigley: watched another video and it wasn't by Rich, which was like a really long one. And I've obviously juxtaposed the two things. What I thought was interesting about this video is I think maybe we're seeing the, Maslin effect, I'm gonna call it, whereby, this looks like there's a bit of a, how to describe it, bit of a workflow, an SOP going on with the WordPress channel.

It looked really nice, basically, and I know that I mentioned that, and Louise, you had the same intuition.

[00:39:06] Louise Towler: I was quite impressed by it. It seemed really slick, but not. Not just marketing fluff. It had some really helpful, it was a great, helpful introduction. I stuck it in our company Slack channel.

The first thing this morning when I watched it. 'cause I just thought for the non-technical people in our organization, this is the sort of thing they can be talking to our clients about when they're, if we ever need to talk about updating or what the latest features of the latest version, it's just that headline.

But it was done in a really nice way.

[00:39:37] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. The whole thing is just really professionally done. And I think that is the difference that having somebody paid up in, in automatic IE Jamie is gonna do. It's just, those gonna, those videos are gonna go through him and he's gonna, he's gonna edit them as he sees fit.

And, yeah. So there's two videos. I'll link to them in the show notes, give you a quick primer of what's in WordPress 6.7. also on a slightly more technical note, we always mention these, but we can't get into the weeds of it. A because I'm not clever enough. And B, because, they're too long. And this is Nick Diego's, what's new for developers, November, 2024.

And you can just see like the table of contents fills the Fills, fills the page. And if you are a developer, there's things about, I don't know, experimental inline comments. block bindings, API updates stuff about WordPress playground, which I think is the most exciting thing in WordPress at the moment.

Stuff about themes, blah, blah, blah, interactivity API think I mentioned, just all the stuff and it's all mentioned in long form with code examples and dah, So go and check that out. the only person I would drag in there, I think would be Tim, maybe, I don't know anything.

Developer on that side that you thought was curious or should we just move on?

[00:40:50] Tim Nash: No, just, I, it's really is, I know it looks like it's a, chunky resource, but it is also a really useful resource. between that and the one that gets published just before there's a new release, it's really nice to see these developer docs turning up now regularly.

Yeah. And they are really, useful.

[00:41:11] Nathan Wrigley: You've gotta I reading them, you've gotta imagine that this is now part of their job description, Because it feels like this stuff isn't not being, it's not like an afterthought. the likes of Nick Ryan Welcher, sorry, Nick Diego, Ryan Welcher, Justin Tadlock.

They're producing this content on a really regular cadence, and I feel like if we rewound the clock a couple of years, none of that stuff was, you really had to go and look in Slack and things like that, but Now it all seems to be written up in a nice, concise way on, yeah. Developer one of the biggest

[00:41:46] Tim Nash: pushbacks throughout the early stages of when it was Gutenberg specifically, but generally of the WordPress project has always been.

If you're breaking, if you're running things fast, it's not even that you're breaking changes, but if you're running things really fast, people get left behind and documentation often got left behind. It

[00:42:05] Louise Towler: is really hard to keep up sometimes. And the cadence of releasing the plugin every couple of weeks means, it, there's stuff going on all the time and you can't keep up As an agency.

We, we have engineering team meetings once a fortnight, and I will often take little snippets from things like that and I'll take them to the meeting to work out what bits, we're doing, what bits we're not doing. And then occasionally I'll email and everyone go, yeah, we've been doing that for ages, Louis, don't worry about it.

But it's just nice to keep up to date because we have to.

[00:42:39] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I'm getting, and it's hard to know how I'm getting a sense that there's like this almost like business mission critical feel to it, In other words, our customers are not necessarily paying for WordPress 'cause they're downloading it for from wordpress.org in most cases.

But they, it's being treated more as a serious endeavor. And the same thing would happen [email protected], the exact same thing, just resources are going in, which presumably didn't go in before, or maybe it was just the boots on the ground weren't there. But now it's definitely happening.

Speaking of which, there's a nice little pivot here. and that is will take us away from developer dot WordPress org over to learn. wordpress.org. I've never seen this and so I don't know if I just made up that it's new or if it's new, but, Courtney will know.

[00:43:28] Michelle Frechette: Yeah, Courtney could let us know.

[00:43:29] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, Courtney tell us, is this new?

There's this calendar page and it's, learn.wordpress.org forward slash online workshops. And honestly, seeing it in a calendar is way better for my head than just seeing it in like a bullet pointed list of, I don't know, in some blog post somewhere, just mapping it to a day. So I should describe online workshops I'm quoting.

Online workshops are live sessions where you can learn alongside other WordPress enthusiasts. They're a safe zone where you can come as you are, develop new ideas, explore issues, ask questions, et cetera. And it's basically a calendar interface. You've got a list view and a calendar view, and you click on the ones that you know have still to happen, and it just gives you a.

Little popup tells you the date and time. There's no, oh, there is, there's an ad to Google calendar. Interesting. but so you can add things to your calendar at the moment. There are four events coming this week. One, what have we got Tuesday, two on Wednesday and one on Friday. But that's it. After that, the calendar is like totally empty.

maybe December's a bad month to pick, but, anyway, you can't go any further. So I thought it was new, but I like this. This is a page that I'm gonna keep coming back to as an easy resource for finding new stuff that's going on. So Developer hours is tomorrow. Learn what Learn WordPress Study Hour is on, Wednesday, something in, I think that might be Japanese or Chinese.

So I can't actually read it. Let me click on it. It's happening on Wednesday as well. Hopefully other people can read that. And then there's Learn WordPress Study Hour happening on Friday as well. I just like it. It's just a neat. Yeah. Thing. It's just a bit more kind of professional leaning into that whole let's help the community thing.

[00:45:11] Michelle Frechette: Yeah. Courtney says it's not new, it's a refresh design.

[00:45:14] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Okay. So did, has it always been at that URL? not new. Okay. Thank you. Not new. It's a refresh design. We now have de so that was Courtney. Now it's Tammy again. We now have dedicated developer relations roles, so yes, it's something focused. Of course.

There you go. although not new but past few years. Yes. Okay. she goes on to say, Tammy, turns out open source is very, much needs developer relations not to have those doing a hundred roles also do derel. Good point. here to Dev. Rel says, Courtney. Yeah. And then finally also need more types in derel.

Something to consider as we build this practice. I think we should lock Courtney and Tammy in a room and they can just fix this whole entire thing in a very short, at

[00:46:03] Michelle Frechette: least answer all our questions very easily. Yes, that's

[00:46:05] Nathan Wrigley: right. Okay. So it's not new. It's been there for a while, but it's had a bit of a refresh.

The fact that it got a refresh, probably it got pinged on some news wire or something. Anyway, it caught my attention. So the Ur l

[00:46:17] Tim Nash: is psych feed of all of the events or is it just you and only add individual events to your calendar?

[00:46:23] Nathan Wrigley: I don't know. Let's have a look. If so, if I click on that, if I add to Google Calendar, I'm actually logged out of go, no, I'm logged out of Google.

[00:46:31] Tim Nash: My, my little nitpick is, I really hate it when people add a add to Google calendar. Don't offer just an I Cal feed.

[00:46:40] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:46:41] Tim Nash: Because it's not everybody uses Google and Google isn't necessarily a good UI interface for,

[00:46:48] Nathan Wrigley: calendars. I can't go back now Brave is, oh no. There we go. I can't actually go back.

yeah, I would agree. That would be nice. And you could just,

[00:46:55] Tim Nash: oh, hang on. No, it is, it's at the bottom. There is, ah,

[00:46:57] Nathan Wrigley: we didn't scroll. That's the problem. Google Calendar. R-S-S-I-C-S. So let's click the s it could still

[00:47:04] Michelle Frechette: be your pet peeve. It's just, yeah. It's

[00:47:06] Nathan Wrigley: just now fixed on this one site. No, that's right.

You've gotta scroll, Tim. It's rubbish. You've gotta scroll. Look, there it is. The joys of XML. We've got nice RSS feed that we can ah, that's gonna stay on my screen. I'll come back to that later and do things with it because that's quite, okay. Anyway, there it is. It was, ah, I've forgotten. The URL. It's at Learn.

No, it isn't. Yes it is. It's at learn.wordpress.org/online-workshops and good place to bookmark, even if you just look at it once a month or something to see what's going on. Okay. Excuse me, the coughing. All right, let's not get into this much, but I thought I'd mention it. this is a piece on the WP Tavern Automatic Launches, WP Engine Tracker to monitor sites leaving WP Engine sparking controversy.

I think we, nobody needs the WP Engine automatic thing spelling out. Everybody shake their heads. Nobody needs that, do they? No. We're all shaking our heads. That's good. so this is a, new thing and it looks like this. Here it is. It's, WordPress, the whole Word engine tracker.com. And, it's got a big number like that 19,960.

And this number, apparently, and I dunno how anybody knows this, but, this is the number of websites which have, Gone away from WP Engine and have moved elsewhere and apparently, I dunno where you can do it, but apparently somewhere you can click something, which, excuse me, will tell you, where they've gone to anyway.

as you may imagine that the mere existence of this website, and probably I should, point out, it's, it's automatic. it got people, a little bit heated. And in this particular, piece down here, right at the bottom, there's a bunch of people with commentary, all about why they think this is not a good idea.

It's a, it's just an ongoing story, isn't it? And we never seem to get through a week where there isn't something new happening. any commentary on that, or are we all just gonna move on? I'm just saying that it's a thing

[00:49:20] Michelle Frechette: I like Tammy says, A-L-A-X-A-I have one on my desk so I can't say it out loud.

Play that video.

[00:49:27] Nathan Wrigley: Alexa play. What does that mean? I don't, it,

[00:49:30] Michelle Frechette: it means how you used to have the kittens and the lambs whenever we'd start to talk about this. Yeah. She's okay, let's move away to the thing. Yeah, let's move. Yeah,

[00:49:37] Nathan Wrigley: that's right. That's right.

[00:49:38] Louise Towler: we need rainbows and unicorns at this point.

Yes. Not people stalk, stalking. how two companies.

[00:49:44] Nathan Wrigley: How about, cat's, dogs, and sheep? After that sort of slightly difficult moment. Here we go. We're gonna have like just a ten second detox here at com.

I'm feeling cleansed.

[00:50:06] Michelle Frechette: it's the ukulele for me, quite honestly. Where, did you get that from? I

[00:50:11] Nathan Wrigley: made it. I love it. Yeah. It's like a whole minute and a half. and I was using it quite a lot over the last, basically whenever anything controversial happened and people got heated, nobody got heated on this show, let's be honest.

No. But, on other, there was the capacity to get heated, put it that way. So I deployed it and it's like a whole minute and a half of cat's, dogs, and sheep. And, that last little one could have been right outside of Tim's window, couldn't he? It was very more I was gonna say,

[00:50:37] Tim Nash: I've got several of those shots.

Yeah.

[00:50:39] Nathan Wrigley: Tim, out of his window. Check this out. No, I bet nobody else on the show can say this. Tim's got alpacas out of his window. I haven't. That'd be nice And snow. Yeah. And snow, looks like snow. I in fact,

[00:50:55] Tim Nash: don't live in Yorkshire. I live in Peru. I just didn't wanna admit it.

[00:50:58] Nathan Wrigley: Ah,

[00:51:00] Michelle Frechette: I'm halfway from El then you, don't have snow then.

[00:51:03] Nathan Wrigley: okay, here we go. heading home from the gym and wanted, so wait, no, hang on. Let's pause this for a moment. Cammie has moved from watching this show in the gym. So she's now in the car watching this show. Presumably type Tammy Pullover. Please don't type whilst, unless you're getting Madame A, the Alexa, ah, I just said the word, thing, heading home from the gym and wants to, want the panel to know you made it from.

Now I'm listening on my drive home. No typing. Oh, okay. All right. You answered my question. And Tammy says, oh, breathe. Have a breath and a sip of tea. That's the video we all need. And then a vomit icon.

But in response

[00:51:47] Michelle Frechette: to the sheep or what, Colin, what is that in response to?

[00:51:51] Nathan Wrigley: I think the fact that it's happened means that you have to mention it, but I don't wanna get into the, the, who's right and who's wrong, but there it is. That website exists. And we will move on. okay.

It's just, oh, should we just leave Colin's vomit icon? Just leave it on the whole of the rest of the show in a way. It'd be nice if I could didn't laugh it somehow.

[00:52:12] Michelle Frechette: I'm not sure Calvin Alkin would like that on this part of this. Oh

[00:52:15] Nathan Wrigley: no. Okay. Yeah. That's not fair. Is it? she's, I did what? Oh. Oh, I see.

Tim's got alpaca. You, Tammy is saying in the comments, she's got a lead poison squirrel. oh. Oh.

[00:52:30] Michelle Frechette: Bless.

[00:52:31] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Someday we'll

[00:52:32] Michelle Frechette: have to learn more about that.

[00:52:34] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Some things just catch you short. Don't there? There's not a lot we us feel that we can say in, in response to that, other than I hope the squirrel.

It gets well soon. That sounds awful. Calvin, here we go. Calvin Alkin and I had a chat, I mentioned this last week. Calvin has, produced a product called Command ui and and it took over if you, were on the socials a couple of weeks ago. He released this product into the wild and it just went berserk as, and so I did a podcast episode where he describes how he decided to build that plugin.

and also, the fact that he had no expectations that it would be a success. And I've been speaking to Calvin on and off for the last few weeks and it seems, like it's going well. He, he, pointed out that it didn't take too long for the, code to be downloaded and basically by the sounds of it, to be released by somebody else.

So that's an interesting and new development that Calvin's having to deal with. but also it was an opportunity for me to raise this one, which we talked about a lot. In the past, which is, a UK dev called, Ross Wintel, who came up with something similar a, while ago and did it as a plugin, but now can't update the plugin.

And I, Tim, just correct me, is does he work for WP Engine, is that right? He does indeed, yes. Okay. So no longer has access to the repo, so it doesn't update the plugin anymore, but, but there is a, Chrome extension or a browser extension and that means that you can put it in the browser. I actually don't have it enabled 'cause I'm in incognito, but what that means is that you can do, I'd love this ui, look at that on the website.

That's cool, isn't it? That you can start typing stuff. Isn't that nice, little form. That's, what we're all searching for in our WordPress websites on a regular basis. Have you noticed when you do that, do you ever do that in forms where you just type gibberish? I do it and basically every time I get more or less the same gibberish.

it's a combination of SKS and vs. Usually it's just S-K-V-S-K-V-S-K-V anyway, it's called turbo admin. And if you want to buy it, you still can. And it runs inside the, it's not a plugin, so it's not sitting on a per site basis in a website. It runs through the browser. So it's an interesting alternative.

So it,

[00:54:55] Louise Towler: so there's no extra plugin to install on your site?

[00:54:58] Nathan Wrigley: No. You don't install anything on your site. Okay. It just detects

[00:55:01] Louise Towler: Oh, that's interesting. yeah, It

[00:55:02] Nathan Wrigley: detects that you're in the, WordPress admin and then it does a bunch of the sort of search and functionality. So I don't know, you could start to type in post POS and you'd put that far and it give you options to add post or what have you.

But then also it will do a few little cleanups. Like it'll clean up admin notices, yeah. Into a handy little panel, which it just calls notices. It just hides them away in there. And it will also truncate things in the admin bar at the top, and you can collapse and extend it and things like that. It's Steve.

Nice. Yeah. So two options. Command UI from Calvin or Turbo Admin from Ross. Okay. Anybody wanna say anything to? I

[00:55:41] Tim Nash: am a huge fan of Turbo admin. Uhhuh a massive fan, and I always have been from the sort of the day that Ross first showed it. And I basically went. Is it ready for Firefox yet? Is it ready for Firefox yet?

Him until he made, until it works on Firefox.

[00:55:58] Nathan Wrigley: Is it ready for Firefox?

[00:55:59] Tim Nash: Yeah, it works with both Proman, Firefox.

[00:56:01] Nathan Wrigley: Nice. Can I just ask a question? actually I'll probably delay that. No, I'm gonna ask it now 'cause we're gonna talk about Firefox at the end. I know that you are a massive Firefox fan, right?

That's your browser of choice, right? It is indeed. Yeah. Do you struggle with that because of its, how to describe it? Chrome just took over the world and it looks like all the developers in the same way that. it, it, for a long time if you were developing a mobile app, you went Android, sorry, you went iPhone first and Android kind of was the second thing.

That's probably not the case anymore, but do you find that's the case with Firefox? With things like this? If you want a fun extension that does one thing, you might find something on Firefox ways, you'll definitely find something on chromium.

[00:56:45] Tim Nash: So most extensions these days, they have compatibility between all.

they use the same sort of API layer so that in theory, things that work on Chrome, work on Firefox and vice versa. Now this doesn't always work and let's face it, Google are not good at playing nicely with others. And so they keep changing the ballpark and rules and how things work. generally, I, find that most of the extensions that I want to use, I.

Come from people who care about such things and will want to get maximum compatibility. So it's, unless it's a very niche thing, and then if it's a very niche thing, it tends to probably be more likely to be on Firefox than it is on Chrome, to be honest. If you are that niche, you're also probably someone who actually cares about, open source and open standards.

so hopefully you'd start off on, Firefox. They're really, what really irritates me is platforms like the one we are on, Sorry, now recording, which won't let you use Firefox.

[00:57:49] Nathan Wrigley: Is there a, can I just ask, is there a genuine limitation to that or are they just being annoying?

[00:57:54] Tim Nash: They just can't be bothered?

[00:57:55] Nathan Wrigley: Is it that it really is that it really,

[00:57:56] Tim Nash: they really, they've decided for whatever reasons to use a Chrome specific API. Okay. Instead of using one there, there are plenty of platforms that can use Firefox. It's not like there is, it is not putting a web call on. It doesn't require any hugely specific Chrome specific stuff.

They're making that choice. They're also blocking safari at the same time.

[00:58:19] Nathan Wrigley: So you have to solidly your computer with a chromium based browser.

[00:58:23] Tim Nash: I do. I'm so sorry. I'm having to talk to you in Chrome and consequently things like my, I frustrations. 'cause like I have to open OBS up just to get my camera to work.

[00:58:33] Nathan Wrigley: Oh,

[00:58:35] Tim Nash: sorry. Like that. Just because it's just,

[00:58:40] Nathan Wrigley: I have a random question Which is always interesting to me. Okay, so I got a New Mac the other day. It's actually not that recent. It was about two months ago. And I dunno if you are like me, but. There's no way I'm going from going through the Mac os like, let's reinstall everything from the old computer.

I want that to be brand new. So firstly, does anybody do that? Do, when you switch on a new computer, do you just go totally green, everything is vanilla, or do you chuck stuff over? And if you like me, you just build you, you want it to be nothing on there. How long does it take? How long does it take before you just think, oh, so it, and everything just comes back over?

Because I'm at that point now where it's like just beginning to be full of crud. I need to reign myself in a bit.

[00:59:29] Tim Nash: So I'm, which means that I, for many years had a dot files folder, which is basically a way of collecting all your configurations and bits, and then you can just import configurations and run it.

And that way I can have the same configuration on. This machine as I can on my Linux machine, as in and wherever I am, it all, it feels and works the same way. but I'm afraid I have him converted to the dark side, which is Nick's. and it's, and now much like an Arch Linux user, I'm compelled to tell anybody whenever they start talking about this, that I'm Anick user because it's, one of those things I mu it's, I must immediately go, I'm Anick user, and the halo begins to form.

[01:00:13] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[01:00:13] Tim Nash: Okay. Exactly. But, so I, love my configuration files and tweaking them. that's my hobby in life, is to tweak YAML files.

[01:00:22] Nathan Wrigley: I'm at that point where the, what's it called on Mac Os? Is it called the Launchpad or something like that? The Launchpad. Launchpad is prodigious empty. There's basically nothing on there, but it's starting to fill out.

It doesn't take long. And then suddenly, oh, maybe I could just make, and it just, one thing goes on and it won't be too long. I give myself another four or five weeks, and then it'll just, no. There's configuration

[01:00:44] Tim Nash: change that you can make to make the launchpad go away.

[01:00:47] Nathan Wrigley: Go on.

[01:00:48] Tim Nash: no. You can literally just edit it and then it won't be there, and then you Oh, okay.

[01:00:51] Nathan Wrigley: It up. I quite like it because I want, on some level secretly I wanna fill it up with junk that I'm never gonna, it's like

[01:01:01] Michelle Frechette: the closet where you open the door and everything comes piling. Yeah, that's

[01:01:05] Nathan Wrigley: exactly what it's Michelle and I dunno why I do it. You know you've got that one task that you think, I do.

I need the 250 gigabyte program that will handle this one. MP three. Probably not, but I'm gonna put Garage Band on. Yeah, there you go. Boom. Actually not Garage Band Logic and it's just massive. All I'm doing is truncating an MP three doesn't make any sense, but I can't help myself. Tammy is not like that.

She's not, she says always vanilla, but interestingly on my phone I transfer. Yeah, but there's a lot of stuff on the phone isn't there? Like contacts and stuff that you can't avoid And I feel like the computers more. The, yeah. Yeah. Photos.

[01:01:44] Louise Towler: the last two pc, I'm a PC rather than a Mac, but the last two PCs, my la the laptop that I'm on at the moment, the reason I got that was 'cause my old laptop, I came in one Monday morning and the screen was slightly fizzy and it was instead as a dodo.

And one of the things I'm a bit paranoid about is, everything's in well, where we share all our files. And within a couple of hours of getting the new machine, I was back up and running again. Nice. And that is, for me, really important. So I have a notebook, a laptop in the office, and my browsers, my tabs as much is as identical as possible.

So there's no context switching. By machine. 'cause otherwise I'm just, it just slows me down. I But that thing of that disaster recovery of Yes, all I need 'cause we're on 3 6, 5 is to get 3 6, 5 installed up and running Log in. All the passwords are saved in password manager. So that's not a problem. And then Bob's your uncle.

[01:02:46] Nathan Wrigley: It's really sad, isn't it? But the moment you do get your new computer out, it is a thoroughly enjoyable couple of hours. I absolutely love it. If somebody were to give me a computer on Christmas morning and I unboxed it, honestly that whole day is gone. I'm just there fiddling with it. Not, but

[01:03:05] Louise Towler: I'm with Tammy though, because interestingly, as she said on the phone, when I got a new phone, everything just got copied over and I was not gonna.

It was just new phone. Put the same card in. Away you go.

[01:03:19] Nathan Wrigley: I have a mental process for backing up my photos. It is truly ridiculous, but it works and and it. No, I can't explain it. I'm not even gonna try it. But it's, do a video. Yeah. It involves all sorts of things, but it works. But it's ridiculous. But getting photos off a phone is like the devil's work I find.

Okay. Anyway, there we go. Two products. go and check 'em out. Calvin Elkins command ui, which Tammy says she loves, says it's amazing. And, Ross's Ross Winkle's Turbo Admin. which is a, different take, but this one's been around a lot, longer. okay. it's time to buckle in. Tim, in the intro at the beginning, let me read it.

He said, doom, speaker of gloom. They were the words quoting. here it comes. Here's some doom speaking moment for you, Tim. Now, this is on, hang on, let me get that tummy comment away. There we go. 4 million WordPress sites using really simple security free and pro versions affected by critical authentication bypass vulnerability.

This is on wordfence.com. Now, to be fair, Wordfence often have titles just like this. lots of big number WordPress plugin, critical. There's a vulnerability, the, sky is falling in and what have you, and, I, so it's. You read the first couple of sentences and you think, oh, it's probably not that bad.

There's only 14 people that have installed it and so on, blah, blah, blah. This one though, began differently. It says, this is one of the most serious vulnerabilities that we've reported in our 12 year history as a security provider for WordPress. The vulnerability affects really simple security, formerly known as really simple.

SSL installed on over 4 million websites and allows attack an attacker to remotely gain administrative access to a site running the plugin. The vulnerability is scriptable, meaning it can be turned into a large scale automated attack targeting WordPress websites. The vendor worked with WordPress plugins, the WordPress plugins team to force updates all sites running this plugin before we publish this post.

So there's some good news. Wow. Tim, is it really that bad?

[01:05:26] Tim Nash: Yes.

[01:05:27] Nathan Wrigley: Oh damn. I was hoping you say no or just

[01:05:31] Tim Nash: to clarify a couple of things. Normally you are right that we will get the end of the world, this plug, and you, when you start looking at it going, yeah, that is serious. As long as I'm standing on one leg, right to my head and rubbing my tummy.

But unless particularly unique scenario happens, most people would be fine. Now, in this particular instance, this is as close, you get to copy URL. Congratulations. You are an administrator of something. I, try to, always, yeah. Put people like, keep people in, da, this isn't that scary, this one terrifying.

Now it's made obviously slightly more worse than it is a security plugin That is the cause of this.

[01:06:20] Nathan Wrigley: Oh.

[01:06:20] Tim Nash: and security. And the security vendors love nothing more than to announce the security vulnerability. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Plugins. You can imagine the smiles and jubilations when they find these things.

but no, in this case it's super serious. It's more so made, perhaps even more so that there are gonna be a lot of people who read this. And they're not going to realize that they're affected because they're gonna see the title, which is, whatever is it really simple security or something? Yeah, really simple.

Security. Security.

[01:06:50] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[01:06:51] Tim Nash: And they're gonna go, I don't have really simple security. What I had was simple. SSL.

[01:06:56] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. It used to be called really simple. SSL. It got renamed to really simple security actually, quite recently. By all accounts, it wasn't that long ago. Exactly. And so this

[01:07:05] Tim Nash: is gonna mean that there's gonna be a lot of people who don't recognize the name, so we'll immediately go, that's not something to be worrying about.

Where it might well be that they actually do have this installed and they just don't realize. there are 4 million installs of this. It was a very popular plugin. it's faded away. And most sites probably that are running it today probably don't need to be running it.

[01:07:28] Nathan Wrigley: yeah.

[01:07:29] Tim Nash: they just don't realize it.

so yeah, it's scary. It, and it will affect a lot of people and all those, and it's gonna, because it's on older sites. There is a not an unreasonable chance that there is going to not be automatic updates and the security team's push may not have achieved what they wanted it to do. So we might well see that there's still gonna be this big spike in attacks where sites that couldn't be updated automatically will be affected.

So one to come back to in about a month to see what damage has truly been done. but yeah, very scary. Scary. So

[01:08:07] Nathan Wrigley: this is actually,

[01:08:08] Louise Towler: I think this is really dangerous.

[01:08:10] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, yeah. Go on, Louise. Sorry. You carry on.

[01:08:13] Louise Towler: I was gonna say back in the day, I mean we take over other people's pickles as I call it, and sometimes when someone's who's non-technical has built a site, back in the day they'd use this plugin.

So they didn't have to worry about switching it from non SSL to SSL 'cause it forced all the URLs and it was, this was often done by non-technical people, which is fine. It's a great solution when you want to have a security certificate and make sure your site's secure. But it means that the chances are the people who are using this plugin aren't technical.

I. Often the owners of the websites would've had a freelancer or somebody build them the site or help them with it, and then they'll have long gone. And as you say, if they're on, we regularly still come across sites on WordPress four point something. They won't necessarily have been updated for quite a few years, and the chances are you won't be able to force an update.

So those sites will be 100% vulnerable.

[01:09:13] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Tim, from everything that you've, actually, let me just go back to the website and it says, the vulnerability makes it possible for an attacker to remotely gain access to any account on the site, including the administrator account when the two factor authentication feature is enabled.

Wait, hang on. So two factor you to actually enable two factor authentication for this feature, for this vulnerability to expose itself. Oh gosh. I imagine WordPress, sorry, Wordfence, we're probably having quite a, an enjoyable moment writing that sentence. and it was, as you described, I think a little while ago, Tim, this was like, copy, paste, URL kind of territory.

That's all you needed to do. And now you're an Ann administrator of the site.

[01:09:56] Tim Nash: yeah.

[01:09:58] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So here's a nice thing. this was on the repo and it would appear that all of that, it was handled in a responsible way, let's put it that way, because the team, the plugin, the WordPress plugin team were.

In the position to force an update on all sites running this plugin, before this post was published. So hopefully that mitigated a lot. So that's really nice to know that happened. But, nice little comment from Reese here. Hello Reese. We were chatting on, on Blue Sky earlier, and I'd never chatted to Reese before.

So there you go. Blue sky for the wind. when Tim says it's bad, So Tim, can you just say it's bad so that we are all clear please.

[01:10:43] Tim Nash: it's bad.

[01:10:44] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, we need a, we, yeah, we need the opposite video to the dog's, cats, and, sheep. We need the sort of I don't know, something, some scary animal.

So please, if you've got any client websites that you haven't looked at for a while and you've got the intuition that you had an SSL plugin on there, at some point, go and check it out. 'cause it might matter. Okay, now then. A couple of pieces. Sorry, somebody.

[01:11:11] Michelle Frechette: Now I need a gif of Tim just saying it's bad.

[01:11:13] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, yeah. With a pipe looking like Sherlock Holmes. Yeah.

[01:11:22] Michelle Frechette: yes, I found the pipe already. I'm talking to Tammy about it, it's gonna happen.

[01:11:29] Nathan Wrigley: I took a few pictures the other day of Tim at the Word camp, sorry, WordPress London event, and they, I missed an opportunity there.

We should have had a pipe, Tim. That would've been good. They turned out all right, didn't they? Those and a soccer

[01:11:40] Michelle Frechette: cap.

[01:11:41] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The, here we go. Reese. Again, the slight stutter before Tim says it's bad, it just then made it seem even worse. The microscopic inspection here, Tim. Okay, so a couple of pieces now from our panelists.

The first one. is this one? who was the, which one of you three raised this one? Personalized. wp. This comes out the filter agency. Go for it. Louise.

[01:12:07] Louise Towler: that was me. 'cause we've, been testing it out and we've started to suggest to some of our clients or prospective clients that this might be a nice way of improving their conversions on their websites to make more personalized content with blocks.

I thought this post was really interesting coming up to Black Friday, particularly thinking about how you can use blocks and customize them if it's a returning visitor, if it's someone who's coming on and you want. And what I'm trying to do at the moment with a little bit of help from the personalized WP team is see if I can set up a nice little RIN calendar.

So something date related, you go on a page and if it's a certain date, it shows something. So I just think there's lots and lots of potential with this plugin to have a bit of fun as well as potentially, help clients. Get better conversions on their websites from personalizing the content.

And this seemed particularly, helpful a couple of weeks out from Black Friday. 'cause obviously it's too late once you're, there on the day. Yeah. But countdowns, timers personalizing content, really helpful.

[01:13:11] Nathan Wrigley: So this enables you to set, it's like a, if this, then that kind of trigger. Yeah. And then response.

And you can have

[01:13:17] Louise Towler: triggers based on time of day, date, where you are in the work, where your visitors are, whether they've, whether this is their first time visiting your site or whether they've visited previously, all that sort of thing. So it's really helpful to do special offers and things that you only want certain people to see.

Not everybody.

[01:13:38] Nathan Wrigley: I want to, have a trigger that it goes like this. If Tim Nash says it's bad, then lightning bolts come in with sound effects on the website, and heavy rain or something like that. That's, Tim's kind, I dunno if he's in agreement with that, but, okay. So there it is.

Personalized. WP no,

[01:13:58] Tim Nash: I, thought you were gonna say if Tim Nash block website,

[01:14:04] Nathan Wrigley: it's way more, it's way more straightforward. Yeah, that's it. no, there we go. Personalized wp, check that out. And then we had another one here, chat, GPT search and how it uses Bing data. This is from use.

[01:14:21] Louise Towler: Yeah, that, that was me again because, chat GPT have now.

Released a search, a feature. If you are on their paid version, it's $20 a month or something like that. I've been using perplexity.ai for a while now, which also has a search feature. And the reason I like it is unlike just asking chat gpt to give me 500 words on a topic, if I search for something, it will give me the websites that it is got that result from, which gives me that slight confidence of where that content is coming from.

The reason I thought this was interesting and very timely was 'cause I was chatting to one of our clients last week, small professional services organization, local to us. They'd had an inquiry from somewhere really random when they followed up on it. How did you find out about us? the people said, oh, we use chat GPT.

So wow. People are starting to get. Commercial opportunities from customers using chat, EPT or some other AI to find the answer to their question or their problem. and in the UK people aren't really using, Bing so much for search as much as Google, but this is a good reason to get your, website properly indexed by Bing and then make sure that the.

The search bot bit of it can go and, use your website in the search results.

[01:15:56] Nathan Wrigley: Have you used the, so not a through an API or anything like that, but have you have, you used the chat GPT search interface? Yeah. is it basically like Google, like a form field and you just fill it in and

[01:16:08] Louise Towler: it's a form field.

You get a sort of a result below. But then on, for me, on my big screen on the right hand side, I was getting a list of,

[01:16:16] Nathan Wrigley: so it like this, what I'm showing on the screen now, would that be how it looks when you get a result? Oh, that's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. So it prioritizes shoes experience, right?

[01:16:25] Louise Towler: Yeah.

But then also, you haven't got any ads, you haven't got it just, it's just a nice use of experience. It's back to a bit of what Google was too many years ago to remember.

[01:16:36] Nathan Wrigley: So what I'm looking at there. so if I use chat GPT search, that is in the same way that if I use chat, GPT, it, it, mimics the idea of it's typing it out and it types it all out.

Yeah. Is, this isn't like directly scraped from the web, whatever website it's using. This is chat GPTs attempt to corral a bunch of information into one. Page is worth of information that you can consume, including charts and things. And then there's other things on the right

[01:17:06] Louise Towler: column. and then on the right hand side is, where it got those results from.

So I was just testing it out this morning and I put in top the top 10 best WordPress themes and it gave me a, piece of content that I could have easily turned into some sort of, thought piece on what are the top 10 best WordPress themes in the, on the left hand side. But then it gave me the sources and most of the sources were those listing type articles of what are the best themes.

So it had used all those sources to generate the content on the left, and, it meant I could see which sources it had used, which for me personally, I find really helpful to know where it's getting that information from. So and ideally you want to be one of those sources. Basically,

[01:17:51] Nathan Wrigley: I could imagine that if you are already paying for chat chi, and this is the interesting thing, I think loads of search companies have come along and tried to do paid search and none of them have succeeded because it's just such an impediment.

'cause Google is already fantastic at delivering things, but a lot of business, and a lot of businesses are already paying for exactly check PPT. So the search that's just now, if you like for free, right? It's just part of what you are already paying for. Okay. Yeah. So that's an interesting, so they can start to really challenge Google and obviously in this case, we're looking at a piece by Yost.

Yost are gonna have to be on top of this. 'cause I'm imagining it's gonna deliver a very, different set of results. Not Yeah.

[01:18:40] Louise Towler: And I think the interesting thing is making sure your website can, because it initially when AI came out, there was an issue of copyright and do you want your website and your content scraped by ai?

that ship sailed, but now it's about making sure it's scraped by the right AI bots so that you can appear in the AI search.

[01:19:02] Nathan Wrigley: Gosh, it's fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. and

[01:19:04] Louise Towler: it's, and for me it was particularly interesting 'cause we've never spent much time talking to our clients about Bing.

But here's a really good reason why you might want to 'cause it's you essentially. It's fundamentally using Bing. Search results is certainly not using Google.

[01:19:20] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Interesting. Tim, Michelle, anything on that?

[01:19:24] Michelle Frechette: Wouldn't it be interesting if using chat GPT search, it gave deference to the things that it recognized that it had written and raised them up in the, the search results.

I think that's something we also maybe need to take a look at.

[01:19:40] Nathan Wrigley: So what do you mean by that? Do you mean that it, like somebody had in the past, somebody had created an AI piece of content, published it as a blog post, and now chat, GPT was finding that Is that what you mean?

[01:19:51] Michelle Frechette: Yeah, exactly.

So almost anything that at the end says in summary,

[01:19:56] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Or uses the words. there's certain keywords isn't there? Yeah. there where you just know that a, a chat bot has written that. Because it's just this hype, I don't know, hyperbolic Language that it's using.

okay, so that's interesting. So that's on yost.com/chat. GT search, it worries me all this stuff with everybody throwing AI out onto the internet and it, for that reason alone, Michelle, is that I don't know how we're gonna know what's AI and what's not. At some point, you can imagine this agreed self-fulfilling prophecy, where the AI just writes more stuff to con, to promote itself.

and it, and

[01:20:37] Michelle Frechette: also people who are really good writers, some of their work is looking like it's created by AI now and is being incorrectly flagged.

[01:20:46] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, I watched a YouTube video. I rarely watch YouTube, but I watched one this weekend and it was a musician, this is such a horrible thing. I'll try and find it if I can.

It'll be in my search history somewhere. I was, I watched the same video.

[01:21:00] Tim Nash: Did you see

[01:21:00] Nathan Wrigley: it? Did you see

[01:21:01] Tim Nash: it? Yeah. I, easily wish one You gonna talk about?

[01:21:04] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Let me, say, and you can say, yeah, that was the one. And it was a musician and he is obviously got a very large YouTube channel, like half a million or I know hundreds of thousands of people.

So he is, he's credible. He wrote music specifically so that it would be consumed by an ai, which would then rewrite music like his, and then he wrote his own music and then he got a copyright violation from an AI company because his music sounded too much like the music that had been written by the ai.

And it all happened in like he could, he got from start to finish in, I think he said 20 minutes, didn't he? They did the whole endeavor. Yeah. It

[01:21:47] Tim Nash: was the best time.

[01:21:47] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. And so basically he wrote a piece of music. It got caricatured by ai, the, presumably the giant marketing, the legal engine on the back of what, whatever it is that does these copyright infringements spotted, it almost immediately issued a copyright notice warning.

And he either had to pay it or take his content down his own music.

[01:22:14] Michelle Frechette: Yeah. That's, it's scary.

[01:22:16] Tim Nash: It opens a whole pan of can of worms because who owned that music in that way that he created initially? Because that's I, if, he, as the end user put in the parameters to, in the prompt to generate the music, does he now own that or does the AI company own that?

And if you are about to say, obviously the AI company owns that, then you're like, so does that mean every prompt you've ever typed into chat GPT, the content that's come out of it at the other end is, owned by a open ai. It depends

[01:22:49] Louise Towler: on the terms and conditions. it also depends on where you are in the world.

So if you're based in the UK, it's more likely to be owned by you. But if you are based in the US, it's more likely to be owned by, because it also affects the legal liability if the IA spouted back something that was dangerous, who's liable for the damages resulting from that and it where you are, I think guarantee's

[01:23:12] Tim Nash: liable for it is not the AI company.

We magically will suddenly remember that they found this obscure piece of law that says they're not responsible, but you're exactly right and the. Except you've got YouTube. So Google and Google are going to just go on whatever suits them. they'll switch country depending on wherever they want to be at.

Just going very quickly back, I have been doing a, challenge throughout, November where I haven't been using Google search at all. Huh, nice. which has been an interesting experiment and I've been using, a, tool called, perplex, which is not the same thing as perplexity. Instead, it's a front end that gives me an interface that allows me to, look, hook up to something called Search ng, which is a localized search crawler that I have.

And I can use a local LLM to talk back to me in the same way that Perplexity does. And it's,

I expecting that, like I was like, build it up, build it Now it's a load, it's a nightmare. In fact, nine times outta 10 I have actually been going to do. That's funny. But it's amazing how the world has moved on in three months.

[01:24:35] Nathan Wrigley: I, think it's, I think on some level things like that video, like I, I've been, I'm, I think broadly speaking, I'm a bit worried about AI and not for the, it's going to create a load of robots and shoot us all.

Not that kind of scare, it's just all the unexpected consequences and his video. That music musician's video really distilled it in such a perfect way that his actual, the actual content of his head could be used against him by an AI successfully. And Yeah. and he explained the consequences of not, opting your video out or not monetizing it for the, and basically it's not worth it.

you don't have the juggernaut of lawyers behind you to, carry that off. So the only option you've got really is to remove that content from YouTube or to let the AI company ha take the profits from it. gosh, anyway, there you go. It's at this moment that Tim inserts the pipe into his mouth and says.

It's bad. We're gonna have to

[01:25:36] Tim Nash: No, it's different.

[01:25:38] Nathan Wrigley: It's d Okay. All right. Yeah. Are gonna have two. There'll

[01:25:40] Tim Nash: just have to get used to you. The cat is out the bag. So you, at this stage, you, we cannot put this back in the bag. Yeah. And people aren't gonna use this for good ill, and development will continue for good or ill, and you're just gonna have to get used to it.

[01:25:57] Nathan Wrigley: What we need is less cats in a slightly bigger bag. That's the name of this episode. Less cats in a Bigger Bag. Can somebody quickly write that down, because that's definitely what this one's called. we're closing in on our 90 minute, deadline. So that's perfect. We will end it there as always.

thank you. Oh, Tammy, I'll just raise Tammy's comment. She, she says that, oh, interesting. She gets AI to tell her what to. Paint. Paint, I'm guessing. Yeah. has been training it on my own photos and art. So find this fascinating. Okay. oh, and then she corrected the type. Yeah. That is fascinating. but in this case, you're not then getting sued by a true, by an AI company for the art that you produce, I hope.

okay. There we go. That's all the commentary. So I'll just go around the houses and say thank you to our co-host, Michelle Frache. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here. Thank you to Tim Nash, who, managed to stay calm despite the, we, we just threw a lot at you there, Tim. I'm sorry. Very zen-like approach to the whole thing.

And, finally to Louise. Er, thank you very much for joining us today. one slightly human pleasure. Thank you. just before we go, I just wanna draw attention to, this is weird, right? I live basically just as far north and south as Tim does. I've got a big window just there, like the size of Tim's window behind him, right?

But if I turn out my lights, which are. Pointing at me. This is what we get.

[01:27:25] Louise Towler: Oh my goodness. What

[01:27:26] Nathan Wrigley: the heck? How? How is it possible? Oh my goodness. How is it possible for me? look, it's light out the window. It's not at all dark, and yet it's like that. It's not insane. It's really not that dark.

Interesting.

[01:27:41] Tim Nash: Yeah. There you go. I point out that I have a giant studio light.

[01:27:46] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, if you turn 'em out, does it also go pitch black feet? No. No, Don't, Okay. You can't. No. Oh, you've got the window exactly where you need it. This is what I need to do with my room. I need to set it up differently with a, treadmill.

Okay. Louis, sorry about this, Louise, but there's this slightly humiliating thing that we do at the end of every episode where we all raise our hands like this and push 'em towards the camera. Okay. Get your face in the middle somewhere. Go for it, Louise. Just do it now. we all say hi, wave.

Hi. There we go. That'll do. And and I use that as the album mark, so thank you to Louis. Oh,

that's great.

I had, I didn't see, I'm sorry. I was too busy looking at the woods. That's absolutely brilliant. I can't work

[01:28:36] Michelle Frechette: out

[01:28:36] Louise Towler: what was going on with your hands there, thinking those

[01:28:38] Michelle Frechette: don't look like hand hands.

[01:28:41] Nathan Wrigley: Few

[01:28:41] Michelle Frechette: weeks ago you said something about tiny hands. So I got, so you need to The

[01:28:45] Tim Nash: fingernails.

[01:28:46] Michelle Frechette: I know that's on the other side.

[01:28:49] Nathan Wrigley: Michelle, my wife went to the, to the shop the other day and came back with things just like that. Only they had. One finger, poking off and I bet you can't guess which one. Yeah, it was not one finger. It like that.

[01:29:02] Michelle Frechette: I saw those at the shop as well. I, elected for the p You go

[01:29:05] Nathan Wrigley: for those ones.

Okay. We got the rude variant. Anyway, on that bombshell, we will, we'll see you this time next week. Thank you for joining us. Let me make sure that I fade out with the correct video. How do I do it? Where have we gone? That one? That one. That one. Okay. We'll see you next week. Take it easy. Thank you.

Bye bye. Bye.