This Week in WordPress #277

[00:00:05] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this week in WordPress episode number 277 entitled Mysterious Cosmic Rays. It was recorded on Monday the 27th of November, 2023. My name's Nathan Wrigley, and I'll be joined this week by Michelle Frechette, by Birgit Pauli-Haack, and by Wendie Huis in t Veld, I always butcher your name, Wendy, I'm so sorry. And also by a guest who happens to be lurking in her house.

We're a WordPress podcast. So we talk all about WordPress. We have lots on the show. Nick Diego tells us all about the WordPress showcase. he does that in a podcast episode with me. We talk all about the bits and pieces that Bob Dunn is doing over at Do the Woo, and the vast number of shows he's got there.

Should people attending WordCamps or speakers, should they be paid for their endeavors? That really does dominate the conversation this week. Equalize Digital have won an award. WordCamp Europe is looking for speakers. WordCamp Asia is looking to sell tickets. The theme developer handbook has been released, and it's one place that you can go to find all of the bits and pieces about that. Kadence have got an advanced query loop. Black Friday is still a go. Why did the 2024 theme get built the way it did the people behind it let us know. And there's lots more as well.

It's all coming up next on This Week in WordPress.

This episode of the WPBuilds podcast is brought to you today by Omnisend, the top rated email and SMS marketing platform for WordPress. More than 100,000 merchants use Omnisend every day to grow their audience and sales. Ready to start building campaigns that really sell? Find out more at www.omnisend.com.

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Hey, hello. Hi. Hi there, everybody. How are you all doing? Episode number 277. I know it just goes off. It never goes down. What's going on there? Yeah, go figure. episode number 277 of this week in WordPress. We are joined together. We're joined today by, an unexpectedly large amount of people. This is, we'll get, we'll get to that in just a minute.

the moment, but first of all, a few little bits of housekeeping. If you're joining us, first of all, thank you really appreciate it. Second of all, if you want to make comments, that's great. We love that. that makes the show actually a whole lot better. Not that these lovely people surrounding me aren't fabulous, but it's really nice to have some comments from around the place as well, if you fancy doing that, I guess the easiest place to send you would be here, WP Builds.

com forward slash live. If you have to count them. Two choices of comments. You can either be logged into a Google account, in which case you can use the little box on the right or beneath if you're on a mobile, and you can use YouTube comments or if you don't want to be logged into anything, if you're, the tinfoil hat brigade and you want to be anonymous, then you can use a little black thing.

It says live chat, little black box, top right hand corner of the video itself. We're right inside the video. And if you use that, there is no registration, login, anything. so do that. The other thing to do would be if you're in Facebook, go to, the place that it's viewing, but in order to get your comment on the show, we need to go to wave.

video forward slash lives forward slash Facebook. Otherwise we don't know who you are. That's fine. If you want to remain, anonymous, that's fine, but you could just maybe put your name at the beginning of the comment or something like that. Totally up to you. so yeah, there we go. I think that's probably it for that.

let's go round. Let's leave the fun bit till the end, shall we? First of all, there's Michelle. How are you doing, Michelle? I'm

[00:04:34] Michelle Frechette: good. I realize I'm too short to be in this box because every time the I have to crane my neck to get over every comment.

[00:04:43] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. See what you mean.

Next time I'll just sit on a phone book. Sorry, there's not a lot we can do about that. In certain circumstances, the platform raises us all up and puts the comment underneath. But in other situations, it doesn't. I'm not quite sure what the... What the reason behind that is, but okay, hopefully it won't be too, weird.

Michelle has obviously been on the show many, times before. She's the director of community engagement for Stella WP at liquid web. In addition to her work there, Michelle is the podcast barista WP. coffee talk. com, co founder of underrepresented in tech, creator of wpcareerpages. com, president of the board for bigorangeheart.

org, director of community relations and contributor at poststatus. com, author, business coach and frequent organizer and speaker at WordPress events. She lives outside Rochester, New York, where she's an avid nature photographer. I said naturist one time. I think, it's somewhat different. very different.

Yeah, very different. and you can find her on her own website at meetmichelle. online. An absolute pleasure to have you with us. Thank you so much. we were snow

[00:05:58] Michelle Frechette: here today just to get in before Peter does the, he's already done it.

[00:06:02] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, darn it. Yeah. Peter.

[00:06:04] Michelle Frechette: We're supposed to get flurries

[00:06:05] Nathan Wrigley: here today in Rochester.

Oh, okay. Yeah. We've just got, winter has begun. We've just got what we typically get in the UK. It's gray and raining. You got the thumbs up. That's brilliant. Did you see that? Right over the face. Okay, the next person, joining us is Birgit Powley Hack. How are you, Birgit?

[00:06:26] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I'm good.

Greetings from snowy Munich

[00:06:29] Nathan Wrigley: as well. Oh, stop with the nice, fun weather, Just get the rubbish weather over with. Birgit Halliher, if you don't know, she's been on this show many, times before. She's the publisher at Gutenberg Times, the co host of the Gutenberg Changelog podcast, and is also a developer advocate over at Automatic with two Ts.

thank you for joining us. That's lovely.

[00:06:54] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Thank you for having me and greetings to everybody out in the ether joining us as well. Yeah, Courtney and

[00:07:01] Nathan Wrigley: They it's coming in on that. Okay. I'll deal with those in just a second. We were supposed to be joined by Wendy Yeah, Wendy's not there she is, how are you

[00:07:14] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Wendy?

I am all good. I am good. I brought supports.

[00:07:19] Nathan Wrigley: This was great. Wendy joined the call and I could see there was somebody in the background. I thought maybe it's her dad or something like that. And no, who have you brought with you,

[00:07:28] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Wendy? It is Jeroen of the Belgium community who is here for a meetup.

Unfortunately, we had to cancel the meetup. So we are now just having fun

[00:07:37] Nathan Wrigley: together. What happened? Why did it get canceled? Our

[00:07:41] Wendie Huis in t Veld: speaker got ill, so we had to cancel. Yeah, it was super sad, but we are going to have dinner and we are going to meet people and talk about WordPress. So

[00:07:50] Nathan Wrigley: we will be fine. The EA, thank you both of you for joining us.

I've only got a bio for you, Wendy, because we weren't expecting yours. Yeah, this is

[00:07:58] Wendie Huis in t Veld: one sentence and I heard the other lady's bios and I'm like, I need to upgrade my bio. Yeah,

[00:08:04] Nathan Wrigley: that's right. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, yours is a short sentence as well, but here goes. Wendy is one of the lead organizers of WordCamp Europe 2024.

That's where it officially ends. She has lots of friends and wears a fabulous range of Christmassy jumpers. Yeah, I thought I would

[00:08:20] Wendie Huis in t Veld: get in a mood. Thanksgiving is over. in the US, but, I thought now is the time to wear it because it is cold and raining in the

[00:08:29] Nathan Wrigley: Netherlands. Oh, the weather.

thank you, Wendy. And thank you, Jan, for joining us. I really appreciate it. What a bit of fun we're going to have. here's some commentary. Here we go. firstly, good day, says Courtney. Thank you so much Courtney. Really appreciate it. oh, and here, he is commenting saying hello Courtney. Thank you.

You can, he can be your commenter. He can do replying to comments. Yeah, this is a, this is an important role. Dave Gray, who joins us from Berkshire in the UK saying it's wet and cold. That sums up Monday. It does indeed. Peacha! It says hello again, so many friends in this room, Peter and I did a show last week as well, by the way, we did a, URUX show and Peter took apart one of her own designs, which was very brave of her.

you can find that if you go to. Wpbuilds. com forward slash UI. There's a form there and it will hopefully get you over to the shows. They're on our YouTube channel. Here he comes. Peter Ingersoll with his regular weekly weather update. Greetings from Connecticut in the U S it's six degrees centigrade.

I'm not going to read the other nonsense out on the partly sunny skies. Oh, okay. Okay. Here's the easy to use formula for converting Fahrenheit into centigrade C. Times nine fifths plus thirty two equals F. Or just Google it. Or, Peter, drop the whole Fahrenheit nonsense altogether. and just get, on board with centigrade.

[00:10:01] Michelle Frechette: I would have no idea how to dress. Yes. Yeah.

[00:10:04] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. My, my parents in the, I'll just quickly do this. My parents in the UK, we had this really weird currency system before the pound was decimalised. And I can't honestly tell you how it works, but it was this strange amount of coins. Which added up to another strange amount of coins which then added up to a pound and none of it makes sense It was like 12 of one thing and then 14 of another it was called pounds and shillings and pence and all of this My parents had to go through the process of decimalizing aka Fahrenheit to centigrade And I think it took them about 18 years to figure it out.

stick with Fahrenheit, Peter. It's just not worth the mental, the cognitive load. Just not worth it. so Peter comes to spoil our day. It's sunny in Valencia. My feet are slightly sunburned.

[00:10:56] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Mute her. Mute her. Just, she's not

[00:10:58] Nathan Wrigley: allowed. That's not right. WP Giz, good day, everybody. I think you might be new.

I don't know if we've seen you before, but if, If anybody knows them, you can I like her name, WP Gizz. I like WP Gizz as well. It's not my fault, said Peacher. Oh, what, burning your feet? Okay. No, I wish I could do metric. We prepared when I was a kid. I'm 60 and we're still stuck. I know. We still got miles on the road signs, whereas everybody else in the European Union.

not that we're in that anymore. Don't get that one. Here it goes, look at how slow we go. Yeah, I could do the whole thing on that. we, still have miles, but everything else is metric. Okay. Let's get on with some WordPress and stuff, shall we? Because that's really what we're here for.

Do forgive me. I'm going to do a little bit of self promotion at the beginning. This is our website, wpbuilds. com. If you fancy, fancy being kept up to date with everything that we do, drop your email address into there, send you two emails a week when we produce content. We genuinely don't abuse your email.

we don't sell it off. not for much, we don't do it. and we just send you two emails a week. So if you fancy doing that's great. Also, I've never said this before, but it suddenly occurred to me like, and subscribe in the YouTube channel, do that smash the bell, whatever the heck.

People talk about when they're saying that, if you fancy that, there's another way of keeping in touch. also this week we've introduced a little calendar feature because we started to do lots more live stuff. it was occurring to me that I couldn't really, I couldn't, because I only emailed you when I'm supposed to email you, not for everything that we do.

I didn't really have a mechanism for telling you what we do when we do it. but I've put this calendar together. It's at wpbuilds. com, forward slash schedule. And it's just a little calendar. And if you click on the links, it'll give you some calendar invites and tell you a little bit about what we're doing.

So for example, that's this one, this is this week in WordPress that's happening now later in the week on Wednesday, I'm chatting to Leo Lozovic. He's going to show us about, Gato GraphQL third in the. Webinar series that was not three. Was it, Nathan? That's just not quite the number three, but this is the third of his episodes in that series.

And then also we've got a speed it up episode with the fabulous Sabrina Zidane. That's going to be happening on Thursday. anyway, the point is wpbuilds. com forward slash schedule. If you want to be kept up to date with all the bits and pieces that we're doing. we are trying to raise some money in a.

Silly way for the WPCC. The WPCC is a fabulous organization, which is trying to help put people into positions where they are needed in the WordPress community. They've just funded Alex Stein, for the first of their scholarships, I think is the right word. And they're looking to raise money in all sorts of ways.

And we thought, wouldn't it be fun to raise some money for them? So we started this awards. I made up a random target, 2, 000. I don't know. That was just random, but we've managed to get 771 so far. If you fancy going to this page and sticking yourself in our awards system, wpbuilds. com forward slash awards, donate 20 to the WPCC and you can join the likes of Michelle Frechette.

She is everywhere, all at once. The WP Water Cooler Podcast, as the most influe influential WordPress podcast, WP Builds as the third, possibly fourth best podcast in the WordPress space. I'm going for sixth now. I don't think there's a hope of us being that high up. You get the point. You nominate yourself and give some money to the WPCC and let's see if we can get that.

I don't know, closer to $1,000. WP Builds.com. Forward slash awards. And the last one, last bit of self promotion is we do this apparently blank white page called the black Friday page. We've got all the black Friday deals here. I know black Friday has gone, but something in the region of about 300 ish plugins are holding out on the long tail, hoping that you'll separate your dollars from your wallet into their PayPal system or, Stripe system, whatever they're all there, searchable.

And filterable if you fancy going there, WP Builds. com forward slash.

[00:15:22] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Can I ask you, Nathan, this is making you money, right? The Friday deals. Nope.

[00:15:27] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, this bit does. These people sponsored my page. So these people gave me some cash to be. at the top of the page, but this bit, no, I used to do like affiliate links and things.

Yeah, I think, maybe about six, maybe seven or eight of them are because I had them lying about. But most of them are not. So let's just pick one at random. so I don't know, like that one, you can see it just goes to the domain. Let's pick another random one. That one just goes, I'm looking in the bottom left.

That one goes to the domain. That one goes to the domain. That one goes to the domain. That one goes. They're not rooting through it. A few of them are, but most of them are not. I'm just doing it because it's a nice thing to do. but there are a few. Yeah, definitely. It's a lot

[00:16:11] Birgit Pauli-Haack: of work too. Yeah.

[00:16:13] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you.

Yeah. it's good. It's good fun. I enjoy doing stuff like that. So yeah. Okay. Let's move on. Alrighty, so WordPressy stuff. This is so nice. I'm so glad this has happened. a few, I'm going to say weeks ago, it's probably a month or so ago, a button appeared in the WordPress, plugin repository, which was a shock to everybody.

It said something like preview, and it was at the bottom of the plugin page and it enabled you to use playground. Have I got it. That right playground. Yeah, that's the word. the WordPress playground software, if you like, which is for one of a better way of describing it. It's WordPress in a browser and it enabled you to preview that plugin.

and it was just switched on for every plugin in the repository. Nice idea. You might say until people who have plugins started to say, hang on a minute. My plugins got dependencies. I didn't ask for my plugin to be, demonstrated in this way. So there was a bit of a furore. It was the, drama of the week.

And, so it was taken away and what do you know, they've come back with a much better offering. And I actually think what more could you have done than this? So based on user feedback now for that button to come live on your plugin. If you've got a plugin on the repo, you have to go through the following hoops.

You have to double opt into it. So as a plugin author, you have to say, yes, I want this. Otherwise it won't be shown. It's by default, it's off. plugin developers can configure the environment of that preview. So they can say, my plugin needs WooCommerce because it's a, I don't know, it's dependent upon WooCommerce.

So if you're going to do it, please put WooCommerce in. Okay, great. Another. Another thing that's fun. Another domino that's fallen. Plug in developers will get a chance to actually test this before they agree to it. Great. most PHP extensions are now supported and remote network requests are now supported.

Honestly, what more could you ask? Genuinely, I think there's no reason for this not to go live. Now, if you, if it's off by default, you get to pick whether it's on, does anybody have anything they want to say? about that. I think it's cool. This

[00:18:30] Wendie Huis in t Veld: is a much

[00:18:31] Michelle Frechette: better option.

[00:18:33] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Absolutely fabulous, and I think it was a stroke of genius, if I may say, for Alex Shields to make it live, get all the feedback right out of the rage, put it in a hopper, and then say, OK, alright, we go back and look at it.

But he got all the requirements that he needed within a day. Yeah, and he's in Australia, so he, switched it on, went to bed, and on the way, when he got back, it was all the things he already had to work on were in his inbox. It

[00:19:06] Nathan Wrigley: was definitely intentional. I

[00:19:08] Birgit Pauli-Haack: don't know if it was intentional, but it was definitely how you do this

[00:19:12] Nathan Wrigley: in WordPress.

Yeah, it was definitely like, okay, with the benefit of hindsight, I guess you can look back and say, it definitely gave him some feedback. Absolutely, But, I think... Everything got in there. Yeah. My guess is that for most plugin developers, it was probably all right, but for quite a lot, it really wasn't all right.

And, so this, addresses everything. Maybe there's some weirdy edge case where those five bullet points don't work out, but in every situation, I think that I can imagine. You're

[00:19:42] Birgit Pauli-Haack: right. Yeah, The only thing that's not working yet is the make it public for the user. So right now it's in the testing phase for the plugin developers and the last bit where he switches, where the switch is off, for the public view yet.

Yeah. So it I, I don't have the timeline, but it can't be too long until, all the testing kind of gets through and. It's really life on the plugin developer, plugin re repo.

[00:20:14] Nathan Wrigley: Courtney, as always drops in, something useful. She says there's a track ticket requesting alternative demo environments, which hopefully we could still consider.

Oh, okay. So what you mean instead of playground, you could say something like, I don't know, here's my Insta WP. Set up, uh, and you want to use that instead. okay, that's even better, isn't it? If that comes through and you've got InstaWP all set up and you're paying for that service, and that is quite a remarkable service.

I can see why you might want to use that instead. So thank you, Courtney. That's brilliant. Wendy, plus one, anything, anything you want to add to that?

[00:20:54] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Nope. I don't have much experience with it and I take your word for everything

[00:20:59] Nathan Wrigley: you said. Thank you. I need to have more people like you in my life who just take my work.

Yeah, you

[00:21:07] Wendie Huis in t Veld: really don't, Nathan. This is only on this one small topic. Oh, you ruined it.

[00:21:12] Nathan Wrigley: I can see some noddings next to you though. Is this, resonating with you? Yeah. The, might, extra feature for an external one or a demo on your own website would be beneficial as well. But Courtney, already mentioned it.

So that's good. Perfect. Yeah. Okay. this is hopefully a really good improvement and something that everybody can get behind in the future. Okay. That is article number one. We've talked about that. Great. Okay. the Gutenberg Project is a bit of a leviathan. I'm glad I got to say the word leviathan during this episode.

How do you spell that? L E V A I T H O N, I'm going to say. I A. Oh, stop. I don't get the spelling bee award. Okay. It's it's a monster, isn't it? There's so many things happening all the time and it's really, hard to keep up. So now we have over on make. wordpress, core channel. So make.

wordpress. org actually, I'm not going to read the URL. It's too long. Click on the link in the show notes when they come out tomorrow. We have this article called keeping up with Gutenberg index 2023, and this is going to be your go to place from now on this, you're going to want to bookmark this because it's going to be.

Everything that's happening in the WordPress Gutenberg space in chronological order. So the most recent at the top, it simply bills itself as this page is one place you can bookmark for Gutenberg related team posts of core editor, core JS, core CSS. D design, meta, and themes, pretty much, AKA the lot, and other teams when relevant is chronologically listed, not topical, latest on the top.

It's very pithy that, introduction is it says exactly what it is. And there it is. So starting in November, 2023, you can see all of the bits and pieces that have been added and we just keep going down, you're going to probably end up right at the top of this page every time, if you're a developer.

So all I can say is bravo. who put this together, Birgit? Do you have any idea? Or anybody, in fact. I have

[00:23:20] Birgit Pauli-Haack: an idea, because I'll keep it updated. Is it you? It's me, yeah. Yeah, I started

[00:23:26] Nathan Wrigley: it. Ah, serendipity. I'm glad. I started it. Go ahead. no. I genuinely didn't know it was you, but that's marvellous.

[00:23:39] Birgit Pauli-Haack: No, I started in 2020 when I saw that a lot of teams actually produce a lot of, information. And I thought, okay, let's just put it in. If we can't make an index, yeah, put it in chronological order. And I talked with Anne about it. she was putting together the FSE outreach program at that time.

And we're yeah, brainstormed it. And ever since, yeah, 2020. So it's in the going into the. fourth year. so you can go back to 2021, you're going to see when block theme started, that wasn't 2020 and all that kind of things. Yeah.

[00:24:20] Nathan Wrigley: Sorry, you go when we, I apologize. So

[00:24:22] Wendie Huis in t Veld: much has changed. looking back, I'm not looking through the whole thing, but Thinking that it was only 2020 when the block themes risen to the surface and look at where we are now.

Oh my God, what a difference.

[00:24:42] Nathan Wrigley: Wendy, Wendy's role, I think, one of the roles is to Help to, help with people with their WordPress websites. Should they help?

[00:24:51] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Yeah, I help people with the WordPress

[00:24:53] Nathan Wrigley: website. So this kind of stuff, do you use this stuff a lot, or do you rely on your own intuition to go and play on a daily basis and figure out what's going on, or do you end up in like the, the official documentation a lot?

What's the quick, I don't know if you get. Coaching on a sort of annual or monthly or whatever basis we get

[00:25:13] Wendie Huis in t Veld: updates. So we have, for the people who don't know, I work at automatic wordpress. com support. and, we get updates from the teams. when there are important updates we need to know about because when Gutenberg changes, our support thing changes.

And, it's important to know, I tend to, sometimes in my week play around with Gutenberg because it's really hard to keep up to date with everything. And it is really helpful if you need to explain to people if you know how the tool works. So I tend to play around and look at the logs and read a little bit here and there and everywhere.

so basically it's a combination of all the things you mentioned.

[00:25:59] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I think self learning is the best way, isn't it? If somebody points you in the direction of something, then you do it. that is, yeah, that's really cool. Isn't it funny though, in a project the size of WordPress, this is the first time, Birgit, that I've seen that thing.

and, I,

[00:26:17] Birgit Pauli-Haack: yeah, it tells a lot of stories mainly about you. Yeah, ,

[00:26:21] Nathan Wrigley: if you scroll, down, past August, it's just, it's me all the way down. no, but it's, I come across stuff all the time and I put it in this news and then I go back and I think, wow, that's, that's been out for absolutely ages, but I didn't know about it, Anyway, rather. Yeah.

[00:26:37] Birgit Pauli-Haack: It's not a lot of, thank you, also for covering it here and, yeah. It's not been, it's hard to. Advertise this every time kind of thing. Yeah, I, once in a while I have it, in the newsletter for the Gutenberg times. yeah, but, otherwise it's really, yeah, it's the day to day business.

[00:26:58] Nathan Wrigley: thank you for doing it. And, there it all is. I will post a link into the show notes. So I

[00:27:04] Birgit Pauli-Haack: know that people read it because when it's not up to date, I get notification.

[00:27:09] Nathan Wrigley: Yes. The WordPress way. Yeah. That's a good way of doing it. okay. Let's move on. Let's talk about something slightly related.

In fact, pretty similar. We'll talk about, so I'm going to frame this about a podcast that I did with a lovely lady. chap called Nick Diego, who is also an automatician. So we've got two automaticians on the show and we're talking about a third one. Nick Diego, is a developer relations advocate over automatic.

But one of the things that he's been involved in recently, and I don't know if you've seen it, is the WordPress showcase and it's. It look at it, look how important it is. So we're at wordpress. org item. Number one is news. Second item is showcase. It comes behind hosting and learn and all. And I don't mean it comes behind.

I just mean, it's, important, right? It's obviously being given some, credibility. I don't know why that thumbs up keeps coming up on Wendy's stream. Wendy, you've got. You've got reactions switched on. Oh, is it? Oh, I see. He's invo it. It's ignoring. I see. Got it. you keep it on then in that case.

so this is literally a showcase. There's a hundred, websites at the moment. really just showing you what is possible with WordPress now, dear listener. To this podcast. I'm sure that you've got intuitions around what's possible with WordPress. It's highly unlikely you'd be watching this if you weren't nuts about WordPress already, but I think this is just such an interesting resource to show to your friends, to your colleagues, especially those clients, maybe who are saying, why WordPress?

why don't we go with Wix? Why don't we use Squarespace? They got all this fab new stuff. And here's a great selection of websites. There's about 100 at the moment, and each of them is different. There are three rules to getting on this page. I can't remember exactly verbatim what they all are, but you have to be utilizing WordPress in a new and interesting way.

It obviously has to be WordPress. And there was a. Third one, and I can't remember what it was. but I just think it's a fabulous resource. And so Nick and I, we talk about that and, and what the future of this, site will be like. There's loads from different parts of the world. They were very intentional to get, different languages on there.

It does on the face of it. Now that I'm scrolling through, it looks like mostly in English, but there is an endeavor to, oh, there we go. Denmark, there's something from Quebec and various other places, but a fabulous demonstration. Of what WordPress can do. Don't know if you've had a look in there, but nice.

[00:29:50] Wendie Huis in t Veld: go ahead, Michelle.

[00:29:52] Michelle Frechette: When I was freelancing and somebody would say, I've heard, WordPress isn't this, that, or the other, secure and that kind of thing. I'd say, it's good enough for the Rolling Stone and, Vogue and the New York Times, but if you're worried about your little, mom and pop shop on the corner, I completely understand.

[00:30:13] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, the, if memory serves, NASA is on here, I believe. I think you're right. I think the New York Times features here. there's obviously, just a load of major properties and,

[00:30:29] Michelle Frechette: Taylor, Swift's website is, WordPress, by the way. Is

[00:30:33] Nathan Wrigley: it?

[00:30:34] Michelle Frechette: And they use cadence. I'm just saying.

[00:30:36] Nathan Wrigley: I'm just saying.

that's fun to know.

[00:30:45] Birgit Pauli-Haack: the third, criteria was, representing a notable organization, government entity, or corporation. Thank you. And uses it as an official blog or website.

[00:30:55] Nathan Wrigley: Just so you can fill in. Yeah, just to round that out. Yeah, thank you. I should say that you don't have to, you don't have to fulfill all three.

You have to fulfill two of the three. So if you aren't a major entity or organization, but you are using WordPress and you are innovating, then you are, you qualify. and there is a submit a site button here, and obviously you can view all of the different sites, but it was a fascinating chat. I just got a real insight.

This has been around for absolutely ages, but they decided it needed a bit of a makeover. And my intuition was that if, you were, you're doing the freelance thing, this is just the place to go and show to your clients, right? Just shove this under their nose and say, ha that's what WordPress can do.

[00:31:41] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Yes, can I say one more thing about this because what I really like I am really a big fan of the blog themes, but what I noticed is that for a lot of people it's really hard to envision what their site could be like because of the endless possibilities of the blog themes and not having that much with the older themes you just had the template and then you put your content in it and it would look like it would in the example and with the new themes that is a bit of an issue and this gives also gives people the do it yourself people some examples and some inspiration for what they could be doing with their website.

[00:32:24] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, I think inspiration is a really good word. So if you actually click through, if you click away from the, from the main sort of page of a hundred, you get a bit of an insight and a bit of intel into who did it. This is not an enterprise in showing off how great your agency is.

That is not it. If you are one of those people who, wishes to use this as a way to promote yourself and what you have built, that is not the intent you may manage to squeeze a, some texting, but I don't think you're going to get a link back to your page or anything like that, but it shows what it'll look like on the desktop shows, what it'll look like on the, on the mobile, but also Nick.

Pointed to a future. And I don't know how likely this is or whether it'll come soon, but I thought this was a nice idea. He suggested that at some point in the future, it might be nice to link how it was built articles or videos. To the page that you're looking at so that you could actually see, okay, how the heck did they get that bit on the page?

What did they do there? And, and so hopefully, with learn Materials you'll be able to figure out how it was all done. Yeah, I would really

[00:33:30] Birgit Pauli-Haack: love that particular idea just so some of the agencies who did this and innovate That they actually open source some of the, code and people can build on top of it.

Yeah, that will be really good. Yeah.

[00:33:46] Nathan Wrigley: should say that the code for this site itself, the showcase site is available. I believe GitHub is the location for it. So if you wanted to replicate this exact site, the showcase site, you can do that. Yeah. it's all available for you to look at. Anything else on that before we talk about.

[00:34:04] Michelle Frechette: Peter makes a good, Peter makes a good comment saying that it'd be nice if accessibility also became a factor in selecting showcase

[00:34:10] Nathan Wrigley: sites. Do you know what, Peter Bravo? that's, I did actually, we did get into that a little bit. I, did wonder where that was that, or things like that, one of the criteria, and it may well be in the future, they're going to make it.

searchable with faceted search again. So something like an accessibility toggle. There's a funny word they use and it's not faceted search. I can't remember what Nick said, but there was an interesting word. Anyway, I can't remember what it was, but in the future, that's the intention is, I don't know, it might say accessibility block theme.

Blah, blah, blah. imagine X, Y, Z. and yeah, so good, point. I think that's a really good criteria. Yeah. We'll talk a little bit more about accessibility a little bit later on. First of all, very important to talk about Mr. Bob Dunn. Dunn, Mr. Bob, Bob, but what's not to like about Bob?

But Bob and I talk quite a bit, on Slack and various other places. And I just wanted to give him a bit of a hat tip. He's been working in the background for a long time. probably all about him and the podcast that he's done. He did, Bob WP for a long time, and he's been doing do the woo for ages and ages as well.

But he's really pushing the boat out at the moment and doing, he's calling it, do the woo 4. 0. Which is, great. I'd like to get to WP Builds 1. 1, that's how it goes. so he's on to 4. 0 and I just wanted to give a bit of a hat tip to him and just say that if you're in the WordPress space, especially if you're in the woo space, but WordPress more generally, look at what he's up to check this out.

So he has got himself now quick bit of maths for. 8, 12. He's got himself 12. Thank you being it. She clapped at my terrible joke. 12 shows is going to be on his roster soon. I'm going to list them all. Woo Agency Chat, Woo Biz Chat, Woo Dev Chat, Woo Product Chat, All Things WordPress WooCommerce, Inside Woo, The WordPress Way, Emerging Tech, WordPress Event Talk, Community Voices, Weekly Woo Bits.

Do the Woo News and WP Builds. No, ignore the last one. That's not true. He's taking over. But I just thought, bravo. There's no way one person can do that. so he's onboarding a bunch of really credible, wonderful co hosts. So we're going to be helping him to put these shows together. So do yourself a favor.

open up a search engine, type in do the woo, subscribe, and subscribe, to all the things that Bob does and just bravo pushing. Honestly, I know how hard it is to, it's not that hard actually, to make a podcast, but, but there's a lot of work if you want to do it well. And so the idea of him managing.

For a 12 shows is pretty impressive. He's certainly putting himself at the front and center of all the WordPress things. over to you. Say nice things about Bob.

[00:37:30] Wendie Huis in t Veld: I have one worry about this. when do I have time to work with all these podcasts coming out? I know.

[00:37:40] Nathan Wrigley: I know.

[00:37:40] Wendie Huis in t Veld: I don't know. I can't answer questions while I'm listening to the podcast because I will be typing what I'm hearing and people are going to be super confused if half of the conversation they're having with the chat person is podcast things that were inspiring to me.

It's, not helping them. it is fun for me, but

[00:38:03] Nathan Wrigley: I feel your pain. Wendy, I, if I listen to something, it doesn't matter. It could be the most benign music imaginable. I get sucked into it. So my attention just goes into it and I listened to the hook and the melody and the lyrics and all of that kind of stuff.

And obviously, given what I do, I spend quite a lot of time editing podcasts and it is the one thing that irritates me about it is that I can't listen to music. Whilst, whilst I'm editing a podcast, cause I just basically, it would just literally be the lyrics of what I was listening to, but you're right.

Exactly. You're right. My, just to give you some insight podcasts,

[00:38:43] Wendie Huis in t Veld: we need like a summary podcast that on Monday afternoon, just sum up all these nice things that are going around in the WordPress.

[00:38:53] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I really hope that somebody produces such a thing, like a Monday afternoon. Yeah. Like a Monday or if you're in North America, maybe 2k you 2pm UK time, something around that.

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:12] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Really striking if it had like a black and yellow ish thing. Yeah.

[00:39:16] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. And I've always liked wrenches. if they could have a. Hexagonal, hexagonal, wrench logo. Wouldn't that be good? Wouldn't that be so good. I, the, thing about the podcast is that in the olden days, when podcasts were really on a clip for growing, people would listen to them on things like their commute and things like that.

But obviously a lot of that has gone away permanently, but still people managed to find them. But yeah, it's just the nature of my work is that I can't do it. But. Bob, you're filling us up. It's brilliant. Yeah. Brilliant. Yes.

[00:39:49] Birgit Pauli-Haack: And he's on the chant. I don't know if you

[00:39:51] Nathan Wrigley: noticed it. Oh, damn it. Now he's heard all this dusty

[00:39:55] Birgit Pauli-Haack: stuff.

Everything, yeah.

[00:39:57] Nathan Wrigley: He says, look, he says, he's just dropped in. Oh, hi, Bob. Hey, Bob, says, It's you. It's you saying it right there. there is a brand new site coming, with each of these shows. Let me just read that properly. There's a new site coming and each one of these shows will have its own feed. So you can choose which interests you.

Oh, one

[00:40:18] Wendie Huis in t Veld: thing about that. Stop making interesting shows. we can't pick Bob

[00:40:23] Nathan Wrigley: if you want to know. You can't stop. No, but Bob, if you want some nature, I can help you. if you want to start making on interesting shows, I'm, I can give you some, some hot tips, around the area. So each show is going to have its own page and its own RSS feed.

That's great. So there they are. All 12 of them, well done, Bob, and let's pray that Bob actually manages to get some sleep, so good for you, Bob, uh, love it, okay.

[00:40:57] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Oh, one more thing, Bob, you need some guests, right? I know people. We know

[00:41:03] Nathan Wrigley: people, Bob. We know people, Bob. Who can do podcast things? Ah, we should just get Bob in on this show and he can add this to his roster.

okay, let's move on. So

[00:41:14] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I wish Bob to be as big as YouTube with his do the woo. And 10 or 15 years ago, I was totally shocked by that statistics. What Wendy is saying that within two minutes, people uploaded 24 hours of videos. So how would you ever, yeah, you have to pick and choose. So it's yeah, but the statistics is really, yeah.

And I, Bob, yeah. Putting so many shows up, that's really

[00:41:44] Wendie Huis in t Veld: hard. YouTube, that is the switch we need to make. We're never going to keep up with any

[00:41:51] Nathan Wrigley: podcasts. Yeah. What we need is a, hexagonal based wrench icon podcast, which leverages the YouTube platform at about 2 PM UK time on a Monday.

[00:42:04] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Do it on a Tuesday.

Then it's the, do the woo Tuesday.

[00:42:08] Nathan Wrigley: No, that Tuesday. What the heck? It's always gotta be a Monday. Why? I don't know why it's on a Monday. It's ridiculous. It's a second show. Yeah, this week in WordPress on the first day of the week. what the heck was I thinking?

[00:42:26] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Yeah, but that is also a little thing because this week, we're talking about last week in

[00:42:31] Nathan Wrigley: WordPress.

I know. If I could only rewind time, Wendy, I would call it something different. I'd probably just call it like Brian or George. You could do a rebrand. I couldn't. That takes effort, Wendy. Actual effort. Move it to Australia. Yeah, that's right, yeah. so Bob says, he's always open for guests. Google Bob WP and I'm sure you'll be able to find out.

But, yeah, the piece that we're looking at, over there was at bobwp. com. It's the most recent one. It's called The Road. To woo 4. 0 and yeah, good luck. Go for it, Bob.

[00:43:07] Wendie Huis in t Veld: yeah.

[00:43:08] Michelle Frechette: In all seriousness, wppodcast. com does exist. And so for, and you podcast there. It picks up whatever you've written about it. It's pulling off of your RSS feed.

So if you've got a synopsis, not synopsis of it, it'll show up there so you can actually peruse down and find episodes of different shows that actually, that might

[00:43:31] Nathan Wrigley: appeal to you. And here it is. is this the one? Dot com? Dot com? Do com. Hold on. 'cause I just did.com and it went weird.

It went to some other thing. So I Googled it instead. Wp. See look with an S

[00:43:45] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Put an s because there's, it's

[00:43:46] Nathan Wrigley: not, it's plural. 'cause there's more than one. I get it. Okay, let's have a look. Here we go. And here we, it's part of

[00:43:52] Michelle Frechette: the hero press. It's part of the hero press network.

[00:43:56] Nathan Wrigley: There. It's there.

It's. Oh, you're in there! Look! Yeah! Yeah, there's a hexagon and all sorts. I'm just seeing where Bob is. Ha! Bob's not on that page. Ha! Ha Well done! He's not

[00:44:14] Michelle Frechette: in the image, but he is actually... He

[00:44:15] Birgit Pauli-Haack: was on

[00:44:16] Nathan Wrigley: somaticals. He's gonna be in it again and again. Yeah. Okay. Enough, promotion for Bob, a week in Word, a week in WordPress.

Then it can be the last seven days, but not the start problem sorted. Yes, you're right. okay. One, one day I will be better, but not today. . Okay. from one thing to another, let's talk about, the community. I, dunno what your thoughts are on this. It is open question really, but Marika.

Vunderact over on, post status has on a weekly basis for the last, maybe four or five, I don't know, something like that week. She's been talking about things about in the WordPress community space, which she think could be, thinks could be addressed. And this week she's opened up this interesting subject.

And basically it's about the payment for attending, sorry, for presenting, at a WordCamp. And she's throwing open the question, should we pay Now, I know that the cost is deliberately low so that more people can attend. but she makes the point that if you go to some other venues, there's a whole range of ways this is handled.

Sometimes they'll pay people, sometimes you even have to Pay to be a speaker. you actually have to pay the organization cause there's a big audience there, but she's really just raising the question. Would it be a good idea to pay people for the work that she puts into it? She says here, for a new talk, doing the research, preparing the slides, practicing the talk, it'll probably take 30 hours.

Of work now for me, that's about eight weeks. That's about eight weeks of everything I mean about a quarter of what I do in a week i'm gonna stop now. It's ridiculous. It's a lot of time 30 hours is a lot of time and if you're doing that gratis There's the question. Should these people be paid? Would it make the events better?

Perhaps they shouldn't be paid and we should go on a voluntary basis. Should there be an option maybe on the payment page when you pay for your ticket to be able to tip certain speakers? Should you be able to add an amount in? Just say, okay, I'm going to add 100 onto the price of my ticket and I want every single penny of that to be distributed amongst the speakers.

So I'm after your ideas. If in the next five minutes we haven't solved this thorny problem, I'll be... Sorely disappointed. So over to you. Fix it.

[00:46:47] Michelle Frechette: I wish it were that

[00:46:48] Birgit Pauli-Haack: simple. Yeah, I wish too. And 30 hours, that's yeah. And I think the numbers are correct. They're it takes a while to get a talk together, but to be paid for that, I don't know how big the stipend needs to be, yeah, to, for a speaker. And I also can see that. quite a few speakers would need, I think for the, diversity and, inclusiveness, I think it would be good to have a fund and there are really coming up now, to help speakers who are in, an underrepresented gender or group, to help with the travel costs and the accommodations.

I think that's fabulous. And I think those funds are really cool. but I think it's, what, how much do you give a speaker? It's 200, 200, yeah, 300, 400. And if you have 60 speakers at a WordCamp, and I think WordCamp Europe actually has 80, yeah, times 200, that's 16, 000. Yeah, where should that come from?

And I don't think it comes from a tip jar, at all. so I, think it, needs to come from maybe the companies that have our contributors, fight for the future, send their contributors to give a talk and make the production of the talk a part of their workload. Yeah. that's one way to do it.

Another way is to, yeah, make it free or yeah, have the speaker be a volunteer, but, come up with the travel costs if there is a need, and all that I'm, it's hard to do this on, yeah, unless you revamp the whole webcam concept to be a much higher paid or higher entry. I don't think you can do it.

[00:48:43] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. By the way, good maths there. That was impressive. I struggled to get to 12 and you did something like 400 times 8 or something in the heartbeat. That was, impressive. okay. So I agree with you. I think, firstly, my intuition is it would spoil the event if the cost of the tickets went up.

Like double or triple. I think we'd exclude a lot of people, but equally, and I know picture, she was in the comments earlier, but I know that she's got a very strong opinion about this. She feels that, getting paid in exchange for doing what is essentially work. if you've been chosen and you're the, one of the chosen few, that there is something to be said about getting funded, but yeah, I, just like you bigger, I don't, I can't circle that square.

I don't have an intuition about what the right thing is. I think. Paying lots and lots would exclude a load of people. But, yeah, but the five for the future seems like the best bet that I can think of at the moment.

[00:49:42] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Pantheon, yeah, I'm sorry, just a Pantheon had a program like the heroes. And if they were on a WordCamp and got accepted as speakers, they would, actually take care of their, travel costs.

but you also needed to be a kind of an advocate for. For Pantheon, for the hosting company, and that worked out as well for me for, two, two bootcamps, I think, prior to joining Automatic. But, yeah, over to you, Michelle.

[00:50:10] Michelle Frechette: It's such a hard problem to try to solve, given the history that we've already built into how, WordCamps run.

I think it's a shame that there's so many people who can't apply to speak. They can apply maybe to speak in their local, regional, WordCamps. So if you live in Rochester and you want to speak in Rochester, there's really no cost of doing that other than your time, of course, and. Not to discount that, but to say that only, companies that can afford to send people, send speakers means that people who are freelancing and own their own small businesses or work for companies, they can't afford to do that.

It precludes them from being able to participate. There are some initiatives as we've seen to help, especially the underrepresented people. I. This last year, I did my selfie challenge and raised, close to 7, 000 and was able to send, I think, 13 or 14 different people to help them get to WordCamps.

but that's, and that was just a small grassroots effort, right? To be able to do that. And I certainly couldn't fund anybody's entire way because it would have been gotten with two people, if I was doing that, but, Yeah, I don't know what the answer is. I just know that it's definitely a challenge and that if we do want to see more diversity, we do want to see, and not just diversity of underrepresentedness, but diversity of new speakers, people speaking about different topics, then we have to find a way to make it possible for them to attend some of these bigger flagship

[00:51:40] Wendie Huis in t Veld: events.

Yeah, I totally agree.

[00:51:43] Nathan Wrigley: What I was just about to say, the three of us, me, Michelle and Birgit, we haven't managed to figure it out. So Wendy, it is on your shoulders. It's not acceptable. To say I fully agree. I want the solution, please. Okay, I have the solution. In the... In

[00:52:01] Wendie Huis in t Veld: the ideal world, in my opinion, in the ideal world, speakers should, and organizers as well, should at least be compensated for the costs they make.

That would be the ideal world.

[00:52:12] Nathan Wrigley: Say that last sentence again. Compensated for what? What did

[00:52:14] Wendie Huis in t Veld: you say? For the costs they make to go to the events. Okay. That should be the least, that should be like the, you should not have to make additional costs to be a speaker, a volunteer or organizer at. Award camp event in my ideal world.

That would be the case. Unfortunately, I live in the real world and not in my Unicorn dream world where I spend a lot of my time Now that is not the case, there is As or if you didn't, I'm happy to share it again. I am one of the lead organizers of WordCamp Europe this year. Yes.

[00:52:58] Birgit Pauli-Haack: It's a huge task.

Thank you.

[00:53:01] Wendie Huis in t Veld: There is a bit of work to do, yes. and we are working really hard. we have a special, um, We don't have a name yet, a special team that is looking into how can we make this work better for all parties involved? Because five for the future, even though I love the idea, it is very my own people in my own company, the people that I select, and that is not always the people that actually contribute.

So five few, the future should. Also, include the people that contribute that are not working for a company that is part of the fight for the future plan, or that has the money for a fight for the future investment, or that work for themselves and that are already contributing more than 5 percent of their time and their effort by the Making the talks and volunteering and doing the things.

it would be great if, somehow, big companies that have the funds and that wanna join in and pay for, the Fight for the Future, contributing to future WordPress, and people who need it to go to events. And it's not only events, I know it's also core contributors and contributors in all areas. But I am working in an event, so that is my focus.

but if it would be possible to change that dynamic a little bit. And make sure that... Because one of the biggest stoppers for people to talk at events is financial one. And that is a pity because we want to hear the voices of all the people. And not hear them because they're thinking, if I go to this event...

I need to pay for the flight for the hotel. I need to hire a babysitter to stay with my children. I need to, whatever your situation is, it is, it's hard and finding a perfect solution is also hard, but, I'm happy to say that we are working on taking this one step forward. And it's going to be interesting in how that is going to play out because, yeah.

[00:55:29] Nathan Wrigley: What I did was, I did what everybody else does. I've gone to chat GPT and I've asked it what the answer is to this problem. Yeah, I gave it the question, the question is what's the best way for WordCamp speakers to get paid? And, and here we go. I won't read the Like 200 word crud at the beginning.

I'll just give you the bullet points. Honorariums or speaker fees. So we've covered that. travel and accommodation, reimbursement, free conference ticket. It's not much, is it? Promotional opportunities. I bring you Andrew Palmer into the comments, unless the speakers could somehow monetize their talk with a call to action.

So if you make it possible for them to come up with their t shirt on and do a three minute thing at the end where they get to, I don't know, if they do a 45 minute talk, you get. 10 percent of the time to, to, do something that's promotional. swaggle gifts. I'll read it says some WordCamp providers speaking at events, could give swag or gifts as appreciation.

That doesn't sound like much. Come on, chat GPT, monetizing session content, some WordCamps record sessions and make them available for perch for purchase. No, chat GPT, sponsorship and partnerships. So basically a load of rubbish, all of that was rubbish. Can

[00:56:58] Wendie Huis in t Veld: I go back to the thing that Marieke shared?

Because one thing I did that in that whole thing that did stand out for me is that how important it is that it is known. So I, there is no, I don't think there is like a perfect solution. maybe in my unicorn dream world, but not in real life. Probably not. But it is, important that people know at WordCamps, speakers are volunteers.

At X Conference, speakers are paid. At blah blah blah conference. Speakers pay to be on stage because they get to promote their product. I think that is one of the biggest steps. The openness and transparency about what, you are investing and what you're putting into it and what you're getting out of it is something that is in very many situations a bit blurry and a bit shady.

If there's openness about that, we can have an honest conversation at what we think should

[00:57:58] Nathan Wrigley: change. I, so we've got a few comments here. Firstly, we mentioned Andrew Palmer. Thank you, Andrew, for that. I'll raise your second one in a moment. Courtney says, in addition to speakers, I think too about the organizers, especially the international flagship teams.

Yes, they should be paid so much.

[00:58:18] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Especially this

[00:58:18] Nathan Wrigley: year. That's going to be the episode title. Organizers should get paid so much. I'm going to write that down in a second. Yeah, that's the best title we've had so far. I agree. All, everybody should get paid lots of money. Wouldn't that be great? Andrew's back.

He says. If all the total sponsorships get raised for W, so WordCamp Europe, for instance, that is in excess of 2 million euros. I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I'll trust you there, Andrew. Is there no spare cash for organizers and speakers? I genuinely have no intuition into that. I don't know if Wendy does, but I'm imagining the cost of the venue.

I have

[00:58:56] Wendie Huis in t Veld: knowledge.

[00:58:57] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Yeah, there is no spare

[00:58:58] Nathan Wrigley: cash. No. Okay. So are you're agreeing with that, Wendy? No spare cash.

[00:59:03] Wendie Huis in t Veld: There is no spare cash. If there is spare cash, we had years. We had one year where we had some spare cash and that is, that cash is going back to WordCamp Central to, to contribute to WordCamps in areas that don't get sponsored enough to cover all the costs.

so that is, also a good thing, especially for marginalized areas where they don't get sponsors, enough sponsors to pay for the entire WordCamp. I think it's a good thing that if WordCamps, have bigger income than their spendings that, that money is contributed to those

[00:59:42] Birgit Pauli-Haack: WordCamps, the spare cash is after the WordCamp, yeah, but there is in the budget, there is no line item speaker.

No, Yeah, So I want to bring us back a little bit before the pandemic. And that kind of

[00:59:57] Nathan Wrigley: leveled the... I want that too, by the way. Yeah. I'm thinking, what? Can we have 2020 and 2021 all again?

[01:00:07] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Before the pandemic. The numbers of WordCams in the world were 140 plus. So a lot of regions had their local WordCams and people could speak there because the travel cost would be less.

We had in 2023, 35 WordCamps. So there is a whole set of WordPress events that kind of fell to the wayside with the pandemic that didn't come back yet. There was, so there was this Big push of having meetups, revitalized and then from the meetups itself in the locales, you get the word camps and then you spread.

Yeah. The, you, have more voices and just the regional ones and the big, yeah. Word camps like bootcamp Germany or something like that. Yeah. So I think that's, that's also part of the problem that we don't have enough word camps where people can start speaking. That is. They're reachable, yeah.

[01:01:13] Nathan Wrigley: I know why there's fewer word cams.

I know where all those people have gone. Yeah, where are they?

[01:01:18] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Just saying. They're listening to all the podcasts?

[01:01:24] Nathan Wrigley: Bob's got them all. Bob's corralled them all into a corner somewhere. No, you're right though. It really has, Shaken that to his core, hasn't it? So my local, meetup, which is WordCamp, sorry, WordPress, uh, Leeds, the Leeds WordPress meetup.

yeah, it, is still online and, and there's a, I guess some people just lose the will to attend those things, don't they, after a period of time, but it would be nice to bring it back. Can I just raise this as a possible interesting solution from, so first of all, Andrew's idea of giving the speakers the opportunity to promote.

I guess the skew there would be that you'd get a load of people who were only there to promote and they did a 40 minute talk which was not the intention, they're Yeah, it's alright, but the main bit is the 10 percent at the end, right? That's, there's gonna be some of that. What about this though?

Dave Grey with an interesting idea. Some kind of apparel that you can wear which shows. You get status because you're given that t shirt. how the, what is it? The Tour de France, the guy who's in the lead. Yellow, yeah. He gets the yellow jersey, right? And everybody's ooh, yellow jersey.

What if you had a, I am a speaker t shirt and everybody goes, ooh. Speaker. we have, but we've created

[01:02:49] Michelle Frechette: a, a community where people don't contribute to those things. So to say that you can put a call to action, nobody's going to sitting in a WordCamp going to go, Oh, I'm going to go buy their product right now, especially we're not talking, we're, still at that point talking about the big players, right?

If I'm a local person, who's got their mouth, I'm a freelancer and I'm sitting in a WordCamp. Nobody's going to go, I'm going to hire her to build my next website because everybody there builds websites.

[01:03:23] Nathan Wrigley: This is a circle that cannot be squared. I think we've established that over the last 10 minutes, but it is, definitely a question worth raising, especially for those people for whom attendance is impossible. that, I guess for me, that's the biggest bit that really would, I would love to address if I had, when I control the world, when that comes.

Obviously I'll have to wait for Bob to pass on, but I can't believe I just said that. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Bob. When Bob has decided that he no longer wants to dominate the WordPress world, I shall take over and I will. I will make it free for all who yeah I wish I wish I wish I had the answer but I don't but thank you marika for raising that and chat gpt What a load of rubbish.

Can I,

[01:04:25] Wendie Huis in t Veld: add on to this? The call for speakers for WordCamp Europe is open.

[01:04:28] Nathan Wrigley: We've got that coming up. You've stolen me thunder. Let's put that on the page very quickly. Here we go. Perfect. As we are talking

[01:04:34] Wendie Huis in t Veld: about speakers, Yeah. The call for speakers is open.

[01:04:37] Nathan Wrigley: Perfect. Here we are. Look, call for speakers.

If you go to europe. wordcamp. org, forward slash 2024, you're going to find all the WordPressy stuff for WordCamp Europe. It's in Torino, in Italy later on in the year. I'm sure Wendy can supply us with the dates. Cause I've forgotten it. 13 to 15 June. Okay. Thank you. 13 to the 15th of June. This is what they're looking for.

45 minute for the long talk, 10 minute for the lightning talk. They want one hour hands on workshop sessions where you deep dive deep into a particular topic. and there's no application for this process, but they are hoping to find a bunch of panelists. Can I just say, if you run out of ideas.

There they all are. Look just right. , I'm gonna milk that for all it's worth.

if you fancy. Why does

[01:05:32] Michelle Frechette: that page look like tarot cards

[01:05:34] Nathan Wrigley: though? . That's right. . If you, if you fancy doing this, I'll link to, I'll link to this page in the show notes, but it's europe.wordcamp.org/ 2024. All of the bit, all of the bits and pieces are in there, and the application process is open. When does it close, Wendy?

When have we got until?

[01:05:52] Wendie Huis in t Veld: we, I think it is January, so it's not going to be open, for ages, so if you want to apply, please do oh, it's gonna, uh, my, my lovely, support person is saying it's closing on, 31st of December.

[01:06:11] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you, look, he's even raising it on the screen, that's perfect.

31st of December, The thing

[01:06:16] Wendie Huis in t Veld: is, one thing I want to add, Even if you don't have financial means to get there, please apply. We will, don't let, anything stop you from applying. and also please be aware that everybody has an interesting story. Even if you think your story is not interesting or if you've never told your story.

Everybody has an interesting story to tell. So we would really, love to hear.

[01:06:45] Nathan Wrigley: You're not hearing me? No, I just was saying I don't have an interesting story. Even you, Nathan, even you have something to say. Can I ask a question, seriously though, about this? Because the, forgive me, Wendy, I'm afraid this one is going to come in your direction, but I don't mean for you to be the person answering this.

Last time that we had WordCamp Europe, there were questions raised around all sorts of things in terms of... The speakers and all of that, just give us some insight into some of, if you're willing, give us some insight, if you can, and you're willing to the sort of things that you're doing to make this process as equitable.

Do you want to tackle that or not? Feel free

[01:07:25] Wendie Huis in t Veld: to decline. I do. I do. Okay. So for now, we've only just started the process, right? So for now we have a people, a person from the diversity team on the team. Helping the selection process, we are doing a workshop with all the organizers about diversity and inclusivity specifically around European topics, because that's a different way of doing diversity than it is in the U.

S. Or in other parts of the world. So we are all the organizers are getting a workshop around that. So we can be aware of where we lack it. knowledge where we lack information and, upgrade our knowledge and our information and our insights and use that immediately with our process. we are reaching out to, and this is, we would also really like your help, like community help.

All the organizers are asked and we are actively doing that, reaching out to all the communities we know. The people we know, we are reaching out individually to people, Hey, I really, I know you, I really like your story. I would like to invite you to apply. So that is what we are also doing. We are inviting people to apply, to speak at WordCamp Europe.

I am doing an open, invite for everybody right now, but we are, the team is also sending individual invites to people. so that is what we're doing. We are also contacting organizations that represent marginalized groups to ask them to Help us get the word out that we are looking for applications.

And that is what we've got so far.

[01:09:15] Nathan Wrigley: That is more than I thought you were going to say. That is, wow.

[01:09:21] Wendie Huis in t Veld: But like I said, we are still, in the process. We are learning. We are taking the feedback from last year to heart. And we are, upgrading our game, at least. that's

[01:09:34] Nathan Wrigley: what we're aiming for. Thank you, Wendy.

What a fabulous answer that was. That's great. And I'm glad you got the chance to say that. That's brilliant. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Let's, put, WordCamp Europe, to one side and speakers and all of that kind of stuff. let's just hit. Tip our hats. That's the expression, isn't it? To equalize digital and behinds and, and the team that they've got there confess.

I'm not that familiar with the names of the other people, but I know Amber, equalize digital have an accessibility checker. It's a tool which enables you to check various bits and pieces for the accessibility of. Your WordPress websites. And, I do feel although accessibility is getting to be more and more like the mainstream topic, people are talking about it all the time.

Now, I still feel it's not really given quite as much kudos as various other things. but this is nice because they have received an award. They've received the, I'm going to say G A D, because I tried to pronounce the acronym earlier and just, I don't know what that is, but the G A D foundation have selected the accessibility WordPress plugin.

as one of their winners for 2023 and Amber Hines flew out to San Francisco to not only demonstrate it but accept the award. The other people that were winning, people like Unilever and a company called Studio 24 for their work. Rebuilding the W3C website. good grief. It doesn't get much, doesn't get much more important than rebuilding the W3C website, does it?

That's pretty impressive. So Amber Heinz, team behind Equalize Digital, just bravo. Well done. And I'm glad that I'm glad that you're getting the recognition you deserve. I'm just going to open the floor for a few seconds. If anybody wants to chime in on that.

[01:11:27] Wendie Huis in t Veld: No, this, is,

[01:11:29] Birgit Pauli-Haack: that's really great.

Congratulations.

[01:11:33] Nathan Wrigley: sorry, Michelle, that got drowned out. Say that again. Sorry.

[01:11:36] Michelle Frechette: I say it's a great plugin and it works incredibly

[01:11:38] Nathan Wrigley: well. Brilliant. Thank you so much. I think the

[01:11:42] Birgit Pauli-Haack: NASA team also relied on Amber's team for the accessibility

[01:11:48] Nathan Wrigley: as well. I was going to say, was it anything to do with actual space flight?

That would have been something impressive. The Equalize Digital team manning the rockets. But, bravo. seriously. Amazing. really cool news. That's fantastic. So moving on. so we had WordCamp Europe and their call for speakers. Here's WordCamp Asia with the last round of tickets. I say last round.

I don't know if that's true. It's the third round of tickets. what did you say Birgit? The latest round. Latest. Okay. So don't know if they're going

[01:12:24] Wendie Huis in t Veld: to WordCamp Asia. Anybody

[01:12:26] Nathan Wrigley: here? Anybody on this call? Anybody in the comments attending? I'm

[01:12:30] Birgit Pauli-Haack: working on it.

[01:12:37] Nathan Wrigley: I don't know. I have an intuition that I would love to go, but I don't know, that I will. Yeah, I have a

[01:12:44] Wendie Huis in t Veld: sense I would love to go. Yeah.

[01:12:48] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Nathan, I, you were there. I see you on a lot of photos from World Cup Asia.

[01:12:53] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, that's Bob again. That's Bob and Westcott. yeah, they have a picture of me on a stick. they've got a picture of my head laminated on like this, like when you sell your house, the sign that they put out in the road, which is like weatherproof and it can't like the wind won't destroy.

They've got a picture of my head on, and they just take it around and put it in stupid places. Some of the photos that I get. via backchannels are not suitable for public consumption. That's all I'm gonna say, but some of them are very funny. But yeah, I was there in cardboard form only. I would love to go, I suspect Wendy, I would love to go a little bit more than you would.

Oh. Can we measure that? How much do you want to go? I'm an eight. I'm easily an eight. It was

[01:13:51] Michelle Frechette: phenomenal last year. I can only say good things about WordCamp Asia last year.

[01:13:55] Birgit Pauli-Haack: It was one WordCamps that I've been.

[01:14:00] Nathan Wrigley: hopefully. And

[01:14:01] Birgit Pauli-Haack: I hope to go back. Yeah, I made so many friends there and met a few, quite a few people from the community that I've worked online for seven, eight, nine years.

And we finally met. That was quite a interesting. yeah, Way to come together. Yeah. In person. It's

[01:14:20] Nathan Wrigley: always good. Hopefully I'll be helping out as a media partner, but it will be done from this chair. but I would love to go. But yeah, I

[01:14:29] Birgit Pauli-Haack: don't know yet if I'm going to go because it's, yeah, we have some family issues here.

[01:14:34] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Anyway, third round of tickets available now, asia. wordcom. org forward slash 2024. If you want to bag one of those, they're limited in their availability. Okay. We talked a moment ago about, let's just talk about this. So this is the theme handbook. This is not the plugin or any other handbook.

I'm going to get it right. This is the theme handbook. And this is the getting started guide. Again, it's one of those things. I don't know if this has been around for absolutely ages or if this is brand new, but I just saw it this week and I thought I'm going to raise attention to this. So if you're a theme creator.

and you want to get your hands on where all the docs are. This is an easy one to remember. developer. wordpress. org forward slash themes forward slash getting dash started. And this is your one stop shop for absolutely everything. You can see it's categorized along the side there. So I just thought I'd mention it.

Birgit, you have an intuition. This is new, right? this

[01:15:33] Birgit Pauli-Haack: is, this is totally new. I think there weren't public law, last week. and it's a revamp of the. Theme handbook to get people started with block themes, there are still, there are quite a few things that are still applying to classic themes, but, yeah, they wanted to get the block themes a little bit more prominent and had to rewrite quite a few things.

[01:15:57] Wendie Huis in t Veld: So the, theme handbook is not new, it's a new version of the theme handbook, right? Yeah. It's a

[01:16:02] Birgit Pauli-Haack: revamp of the theme handbook.

[01:16:04] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, cool. Rewritten for the modern era. I think Justin Tadlock is, it's his

[01:16:09] Birgit Pauli-Haack: project. Yeah. Did they have a lifting? Did he, did they have a lifting of rewriting it? Yeah.

[01:16:14] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So we've mentioned that, and I'll put it into the show notes if you're a developer.

Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out. yeah, that's fine. time is running short. So we'll just, we'll go through a few of these little items towards the end pretty quickly. The first one to mention, maybe hand this one over to, to Michelle. I don't know, is the cadence in the pro blocks they've released this week.

What looks like a really nice. addition, they're calling it the advanced query loop. I don't know if they had a query loop before, and this supplements that or augments that in some way, but there's a little video here. It's about six minutes long, where Ben Rittner, the founder of CadenceWP shows what you can do with it.

And essentially, if you want to create I don't know, let's say archives or things like that, you can do this with. Clicking buttons. You don't need to open up an IDE and get all stuck into the weeds. You'll be done. And what's nice about this is that it's got faceted search attached to it. So you could say you could put into a sidebar, for example, okay.

Only show me the ones with a category of. Do the woo, for example, that kind of thing. And, it's, it looks really nice. So really nice implementation. And this article explains how you get started. So hats it to them, Michelle, anything you want to add into that? It's

[01:17:25] Michelle Frechette: just a lot of excitement in the cadence community about this.

And the Facebook group, especially, I'm noticing a lot of people talking about it and a lot of excitement for it. and as you said, it is part of the pro, bundles that

[01:17:38] Nathan Wrigley: we have. Black Friday sale, look, 40 percent off still, you can still get it through tomorrow, no, day after tomorrow. No, day after Wednesday.

was there a query loop block already or is the advanced query loop, is that the, I don't recall. Not sure, okay.

[01:17:55] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Query loop is actually the core block. That does the posting. Yeah. Where you have to list the posts and there was, there's another, yeah. Not to steal the thunder, but there's another advanced query loop plugin in the repository.

[01:18:11] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, the query loop block is obviously part of core and it's dead good as well, but this adds a few bells and whistles. Yeah. There's some, makes it nice and straightforward for you to do things and

[01:18:20] Michelle Frechette: it's,

just, and it displays so beautifully when you're using

[01:18:23] Nathan Wrigley: it. Yeah, it's really nice. Go check the video out, 40 percent off if you do that in the next couple of days.

Okay, quickly moving on. This is just, I just like this. I've never yet read an article which explains why, a particular default WordPress theme was built and we haven't got time to go into the nuts and bolts of this, but this is a. It's this from automatic. design, it's called introducing 2024. And I know we've droned on about 2024 quite a lot on how good it is in so many situations.

And really it's feels like a selection of patterns to allow you to do more or less anything. And this article just explains how they did it. what the design process was, how they went through and got like feedback about things and how they leveraged WordCamp US to sit people down and get them talking about it and offering their insights into it.

So just a really nice expose of why. It was done the way it was done. And I don't know that I've ever had the why before. I've always just looked at it and gone, Oh, that's nice. But I didn't quite know why it was made. So that was good. still conscious of time, solid security. Formerly I themed security.

They have released what I believe, again, Sorry if I've got this wrong. What I believe is the first iteration of their firewall. it says new firewall functionality. So I don't know if they had a previous firewall, but then they've added in this rules functionality, or if it's just that they're.

Firewall is brand new, but there is the

[01:19:56] Michelle Frechette: functionality of being able to set those configurations within your firewall. Perfect.

[01:20:02] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Thank you. So now you can set up your own firewall rules, get as complicated or straightforward as you like. And I think from looking at the video, you can still fall back on the do it for me.

and

[01:20:16] Michelle Frechette: it's 40 percent off right

[01:20:17] Nathan Wrigley: now. Yeah, the little bar I suspect was just there, but it's not showing on my, I'm on a, and that's through

[01:20:24] Michelle Frechette: December 3rd. okay.

[01:20:26] Nathan Wrigley: Solid security, solid WP, all of the bits and pieces in their suite through December 3rd, 40 percent off. Okay, great. just for the, for giggles, David Wormsley and I, we released a podcast episode this week where we got AI to tell us what to say, uh, it's really bad.

I would advise that you don't listen to it, that's up to you. If Wendy, you've got hours of time to squander. Read the transcript. Yeah, that's right. It was a really funny enterprise. We sat down and we said, let's just do it. Let's just, so we read out exactly what it said and man alive.

I think Bob, your job is safe for a while. not so much for me, but for Bob.

[01:21:13] Birgit Pauli-Haack: Michelle, you hit the point of the head. Read the transcript, check GPT, the transcript, and then ask questions like, what is

[01:21:25] Nathan Wrigley: the takeaway?

[01:21:27] Birgit Pauli-Haack: And I did that for some

[01:21:28] Nathan Wrigley: of them, yeah, it's really cool. We got AI to do the show notes as well, so it like figured out what we...

We fed it back into a different ai, what we'd said, and then it did show notes. Oh, really? yeah. Yeah. And it was . Yeah, it was really, it's timestamped what we did. Like you can see that here, it gave us little, like clips, which might be good in things like, Instagram or in threads on, Twitter threads and things like that.

And then, yeah, as always, if you want to download, view the whole transcript, it's fairly long. And, I wouldn't advise reading it. Anyway, it was fun to do. yeah. WPbuilds. com. Episode number 352. If

[01:22:07] Michelle Frechette: you keep feeding things through chat, GPT does it start to degrade? Like when you keep saving a JPEG over and sharing it through Facebook, etc.

I don't know. Eventually you just get

[01:22:16] Nathan Wrigley: gobbledygook. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe, if you do it often enough, it'll give you the proof of the existence of God or something like that. It's just going to save. 42. That's all I'm giving you, it's 42. No, that's the answer. 42 is the answer, Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Oh, I think it's a nerd as well. That's great. okay. very short on time. If you're into CSS grid, if you like that as a way of laying things out, but are finding it really hard, I stumbled across this article this week. It's by Josh W. Com, Como. C-O-M-E-A-U. It's just a really nice way of explaining how to do the basics of CSS grid.

So I thought I'd post that. That'll come into the show notes tomorrow. That's really nice. and the last one for now, before we do our top picks for Black Friday, everyone's gotta give a tip of some kind. That nice. What? the scientists, All of them this week in Utah spotted a, a mysterious, I love this.

Oh, maybe this is going to be the episode title, a mysterious cosmic ray, which, frankly, if I could spot a materialist, a mysterious cosmic ray, I think my life would be complete. This thing though, comes from outside of our galaxy. They think they don't actually know because mysterious cosmic rays are by definition.

Mysterious. but this one. Could be a kid with a laser light. Some dude with a torch, yeah. Standing outside going, ah. this thing, check this out, right? This, it's so rare that if you were to use a cubic kilometer of the earth, if you could just isolate a cubic kilometer and you watch it for a century.

One particle, they predict, would pass through in a, century, and if you go outside and hold your hand out for a second, one second, one cosmic ray of some description will pass through your hand, right? That's the average. This is one in a cubic kilometer. per century, so it's pretty rare. And, if it hits you, if you happen to be the unlucky bugger standing in that field, when it hits you, it's got the force of a brick.

[01:24:33] Wendie Huis in t Veld: imagine! What would that be

[01:24:35] Nathan Wrigley: for? I don't know what to, what would it be though? Imagine standing in the middle of a field and suddenly it's like you've been hit by a brick, but nothing happened. How weird would that be? It's no, it happened. No, it didn't. You're imagining. No, I was hit by a mysterious cosmic ray.

Anyway, there you go. What, what silliness excuses for everything. I know. Yeah. Okay. Black Friday deals. I said at the top of the show, before we hit record, that I was going to ask everybody for their. Top tip of what they got or, would like still on black Friday. my personal thing before we go to anybody else, my personal one is I'm, thinking of buying a stupid phone, a Dom phone.

so no Facebook, no Android, no iOS, just the good old fashioned phone that you got when you were like in the 1990s. And it turns out that, there's quite a lot of them available, but there's a dead posh one called the punked. P U N K T. And it costs a lot considering all it does is make phone calls, but I think, yeah, basically nothing, but I think I want to quieten my life down a bit.

to be fair though, it has one special feature. It detects. Mysterious Cosmic Rays.

[01:25:56] Wendie Huis in t Veld: It's pretty good for that. Yeah, that's what we need.

[01:26:00] Nathan Wrigley: And it comes with a guy holding a torch as well. It's remarkable. Anyway, that's my thing. That's the thing I might get this week. Let's go round. So let's go that way. What are you both doing for Black Friday? You getting anything either? I already got something.

[01:26:14] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Oh. Yeah. it's the loop earplugs. I was at an event recently and I was not able to hear because it was so loud and then someone was sitting next to me and she was talking like in her normal voice and she was like, I have these secret earplugs and they're amazing and now I can hear you talk and I was like, I need that in my life.

How does it work? I don't know. So I bought them. Oh, I already lost them.

[01:26:42] Nathan Wrigley: I think it's Mysterious Cosmic Rays. Back for another round. It's

[01:26:48] Wendie Huis in t Veld: It's like earbuds, earplugs, but with a ring. So you put this in your ear and then you have this ring that is in your ear. And it's, it's, it, I don't know how it works, but it's magical.

Bluetooth,

[01:27:03] Nathan Wrigley: it's magic, it's voodoo. It's literally magic. And they

[01:27:08] Wendie Huis in t Veld: have the Black Friday deal as well. Loop earplugs for surrounding towns. So it just

[01:27:15] Nathan Wrigley: reduces all

[01:27:15] Wendie Huis in t Veld: the background noise. Yeah, it doesn't play music or you can't listen to podcasts on it. But,

[01:27:23] Nathan Wrigley: this is the devil's work. Don't buy these.

What good are they?

[01:27:28] Wendie Huis in t Veld: But it does when you're in a really loud place. mute the background sound so you can hear people talking. So

[01:27:37] Nathan Wrigley: there's no electronics. It's just plastic. It's a thing. That's brilliant. Okay. I'm right. You also have an, addition for sleeping as well.

[01:27:49] Wendie Huis in t Veld: I'm definitely, and like I said, I haven't tested them, but the woman was so excited, I ordered them immediately.

[01:27:55] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. I've always wanted to go to far more loud places. And so this will allow that to happen. Yes, exactly. Yeah. You can go to the after party. You can

[01:28:04] Wendie Huis in t Veld: go

[01:28:04] Nathan Wrigley: to loud places and not be in your own place. Okay. Thank you. After

[01:28:07] Birgit Pauli-Haack: party. It's a great swag for Welcome Europe. There you go.

[01:28:12] Nathan Wrigley: There you go. Yes. Have you got anything as well, Joan?

Nope, nothing. Only a train ticket to here. That's good! I like it. Camaraderie. Michelle, have you got anything you're pitching or interested in? I

[01:28:27] Michelle Frechette: bought the developer, whatever, unlimited license, lifetime deal for WP Confetti.

[01:28:36] Wendie Huis in t Veld: WP Confetti? Yeah,

[01:28:39] Michelle Frechette: from

[01:28:39] Birgit Pauli-Haack: WP

[01:28:41] Nathan Wrigley: Basically, it was this. Or confetti from the Mickey Sunshine, yeah.

[01:28:46] Wendie Huis in t Veld: Oh, this one. I need that in my life. You do need that in your life. I just like someone to walk behind me the whole time. I need to throw confetti

[01:28:57] Michelle Frechette: around. I plan to pair it up with my WS forms. And so when somebody hits. Submit, Confetti will be like, yes, you did

[01:29:06] Wendie Huis in t Veld: it. I love it. That's a good

[01:29:08] Nathan Wrigley: idea. I came up with a, I came up with an improvement to that platform, this week.

I thought it would be a good idea if you, if not only when you submit your WS form, would it make that confetti thing, but it would do this as well.

Now you know the thing, Michelle's disappointed with her. Every

[01:29:36] Birgit Pauli-Haack: idea can

[01:29:37] Nathan Wrigley: be outdone. A Derek Ash shower, is behind that and it's absolutely fabulous. such a simple yet brilliant.

[01:29:46] Michelle Frechette: I ordered some things also through Amazon, but I can't share them because people will know what I bought them for Christmas

[01:29:51] Nathan Wrigley: then.

My, my wife was on the phone not that long ago and she was explaining to somebody why she couldn't tell them what she was doing because she was wrapping their present. And she said, Oh, I'm so glad you're not here. If you were here, you'd see that I was wrapping your hat. And then immediately said, Oh, what?

Oh,

Oops. Indeed. Yeah. Oops. They giggled for a long time. Birgit, last but by no means least, what have you got? Black Friday? Yeah, I can make

[01:30:22] Birgit Pauli-Haack: it quick. I didn't buy anything for back, Black Friday or Cyber Tuesday, Cyber Monday. I own, I also missed Thanksgiving. So it's the first year not in America and I'm totally life changed.

It's a normal weekend.

[01:30:37] Nathan Wrigley: Yay. Yeah. I'm, going to get some of those. Headphones, those things, those loop things, I think it's opposite of headphones, isn't it? It's, yeah, you put it in your ears. My son has something when he plays the drums, it's, but it's just a, it's just a on mass, reduce all the noise.

It's not to allow certain frequencies through, but that appears to be,

[01:31:01] Birgit Pauli-Haack: wouldn't that be better used on his drums? The noise cancelling thing instead of his

[01:31:09] Nathan Wrigley: headphones? Whenever I want him to be noise cancelling on the drums, I just say, go in that room, go elsewhere.

okay, that's it. We've had a lovely show. Thank you for all of your comments. We've had loads of people chatting. I realise I missed a few and I'm sorry for that. Andrew Palmer and... Hey Jessica. Jessica Frick as well. Yeah. Yes. That's going to be my new hashtag.

[01:31:40] Michelle Frechette: The other one said RIP Bob because

[01:31:44] Nathan Wrigley: I'm going to immediately go and apologize to him.

so thank you to all of you involved now the slightly humiliating, and I don't know how you guys manage this. Every time we end an episode, we do this hand wavy thing where everybody has to put their hands up. He's actually hiding. That's brilliant. That's perfect. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

We'll be back next week with some different guests, but we'll talk about WordPress some more. I'm going to knock it all ahead and say tattie bye. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you next week.

[01:32:17] Birgit Pauli-Haack: That's wonderful. Thank you. Bye bye everybody.