This Week in WordPress #240

[00:00:00] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this week in WordPress, episode number 240 entitled, how Do We Hack Mark's Laptop? It was recorded on Monday, the 6th of February, 2023. My name's Nathan Wrigley, and today I am joined by three guests. There's Mark Westguard, Rob Cairns, and Steve Burge. It's a WordPress podcast, so we mainly talk about WordPress, but we do stray into AI a little bit.

What's up this week? We talk about the core editor improvements and McCarthy's got a nice article about some of the things which have changed recently to help you and your WordPress websites. Should the site editor beat a label be removed? Something Think it should. Others think it shouldn't, should the WordPress.

Area, get a bit of a design overhaul. Yos certainly seem to think so, and there's a piece by Yos de Volk all about that. The individual learner survey is out. It's only gonna take you five or seven minutes to complete, so there's a link in the show notes to help you do that. There's also a look under the hood at something called Engine Awesome, which is a SaaS app, which is using Gutenberg as their ui.

We talk about the last pass breach for quite a long time, and then we get into some AI stuff. We talk all about the fact that school children are submitting things that AI has created. And the AI singly can't spot what it's created. It's all coming up next on this week in WordPress.

This episode of the WP Builds podcast is brought to you by GoDaddy Pro, the home of manage WordPress hosting that includes free domain, ssl, and 24 7 support. Bundle that with The Hub by GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients, and get 30% off new purchases. Find out more at go.me/wpbuilds.

Hello.

Good evening, good afternoon, good morning. I don't think there's anything else that's Oh, good night. We could have that, it's this week in WordPress. It's episode number 240. I can't believe. I've managed to get this far , in all honesty, anybody else can either, but here we are surrounded by lovely people from well North America in this case. I dunno what I'm doing wrong. I can't seem to get any British people on. Oh, hang on minute.

Wait a sec. . So yeah, look there. You're both are let's introduce our guests. You can obviously see if you go round robin. We've got we've got Rob CAIRs joining us. We've also got Steve Burge and we've also got Mark West Guard. Let me give them their proper introductions. Let's, first of all, start with Rob Cairns.

How are you doing? Rob? How's this week been for you?

[00:02:58] Rob Cairns: Not too bad. Nathan, thanks for having me again.

[00:03:01] Nathan Wrigley: You're really welcome. I'm struggling to find in our show notes the the introduction. No, there we go. It's dropped towards the bomb. Here we go. Rob is the founder, c e o, chief creator of Amazing Ideas at Stunning Digital Media.

His agency focuses on WordPress design and development, WordPress security, and email marketing. He launched his agency 14 years ago after spending 21 years in technical support in healthcare in his spare time. Rob is an avid reader, loves sports, and enjoys spending time at Niagara Falls. When you say avid reader, what's the metric for that?

Do you consume books like once a week or once a month? Cuz I'm on a bit of a binge at the minute with books. I'm really got back into reading since c.

[00:03:46] Rob Cairns: Yeah, basically once a week. So my whole theory with books is take a half hour outta TV watching every day, read a book instead, and you'll get through a book a week, which is about 52 books a year, give or take.

Yeah.

[00:03:59] Nathan Wrigley: That's great. That's about my cadence at the minute. I'm on about a book a week and on unusual, unusually for me I've settled on sci-fi since Christmas. Before that it was always history, non-fiction, and and I'm, yeah, and found a family.

[00:04:18] Rob Cairns: Gone alternate. Nathan, sorry. So I do one business book, one pleasure book, and I alternate the two.

But sci-fi in history are two big great subjects to read. I know where

[00:04:29] Nathan Wrigley: I'm from. I'm I'm currently reading the Red Rising Series. I'm on book four. I dunno if you've come across that one, but it's absolutely thrilling. I'm really enjoying it. Anyway, we're not here to talk about that, but thank you for joining us, Rob.

Really appreciate it. Thank, we're also joined, as you can see. And then is is Mr. West Guard? Mark West Guard? Mark Marks. Mark's biography I wrote because he didn't. So it says Mark. Mark is made from AI and runs WS form. Is there anything else I need to add to this? There's

[00:05:02] Mark Westguard: nothing else we need to say that's still the risk to it.

How you doing? Nathan ?

[00:05:07] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Good. If he glitches during this episode, it's because he's not real. You went to Word Camp y'all over the weekend and I did a nice time.

[00:05:14] Mark Westguard: Yeah, I did. It was fantastic. Yeah. Luckily it was about a two and a half hour drive from me, so I went straight. It was really funny.

I come out of my house and I turned, almost left onto the two 80 and I drove along the road and then I turned right in Birmingham and I was there. It was really strange. ,

[00:05:30] Nathan Wrigley: it's made for you. Yeah.

[00:05:33] Mark Westguard: But it was, yeah, it was great. It was great to see. Kate and Tofa and ne who's been on the show before and, all kinds of people.

So it was great to catch up. Nice. And yeah see some sessions and have a Oh,

that's

[00:05:47] Nathan Wrigley: lovely. I'm glad you had a nice time. I'm glad you're joining us. Thank you very much. And finally not finally, it's some, somebody's got a come at the end of the list. It's Steve Burge.

How you doing, Steve? Hey, Nathan. Steve is the, he's one of the people behind Meta Slider, which we're gonna talk about in a moment, but a whole bunch of other things. Publish Press is the most notable thing I think that I've come across you for. I actually use it on WP Builds to to, for all sorts of unpublished things.

There's a plugin that he has, which allows you to set a date in the future to turn a post, which is published into draft. And I use that when deals that we run on. Things like Black Friday, things like that when they expire. It's e ever so good. But go and check out Publish Press.

The official biography reads as follows. I'm part of a team building WordPress publishing plugins with over a million users. They are published. Press Metas, slider, taxo, press and Log. Ah, hence the article that you, that we're gonna mention later. I didn't know about the Livity side of things. How are you, Steve?

Yeah,

[00:06:54] Steve Burge: pretty good. I don't have any AI in any of our plug-ins yet. I need to catch up, mark, and need to get some kind of artificial intelligence in

[00:07:02] Nathan Wrigley: there. Should we just kick him off the show? It's frankly, you know what, ,

[00:07:07] Steve Burge: anything to contribute to a chat in 23 if I don't have any? Hey,

[00:07:11] Nathan Wrigley: talk. We've been talking for AI for weeks and weeks.

In fact, every episode we do, and there's more coming down the road this week. But just a couple of quick things. Firstly, if you want to encourage other people to come on this show and join us in the chat, I'd really appreciate that. Go to WP Builds.com/live. Copy and paste that URL into something.

Anything you like. Hopefully some sort of social platform would be helpful and send it out there, get people to join us in the chat. That would be really nice. That's probably the best way to do it. WP Builds.com. Forward slash live and I will take it off the screen and we've got a few people.

We've got somebody called Cohen who's given us a wave. Thank you very much. I don't know that I've come across Cohen before, but nice to have you. We've got Lana's turning into a bit of a regular in the comments there. Thank you very much. For joining us. She says, Hey, everyone. And we've got a, what is that?

It says, hand pink waving. I guess that's a an emoji that never got passed correctly by the , by the platform here. But thank you for joining us, Alan. Appreciate it. Alan Fuller and Phil Levine's joining us. He says, good morning everybody. Frankly, I'm shocked. We're three minutes into the episode and we haven't got a weather report from from Peter Erol.

Let's hope it's coming. Let's hope he's all right. He says it's the first one on the list. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's not working for us, but nevermind. Try another one and see if that works. We're gonna talk about WordPress cause that's what this really is all about. But before we do that, a couple of bits of housekeeping, if that's all right with you.

This is our website, WP Builds.com. If you go there, you can find all of the shows that we do. Basically, we do two things a week. We do this show, which comes out, live now, and then I repackage it as a podcast episode comes out. Tomorrow, Tuesday. And also we do the podcast with either David Walmsley or myself, or interviews.

I've had both Mark and Steve onto that show before. And We are sponsored at the moment by GoDaddy Pro. They've been very generous, sponsored us for a really long period of time. So thumbs up and thanks to them, really appreciate it. The other thing that I want to mention very quickly is that the Page Builder Summit is coming back.

It's actually happening very soon alarmingly soon. In fact, , it's happening on the 20th of February, right through the 24th. So it's a five day event. As is usually the case, you can watch the presentations for 48 hours or you can, there's an upgrade which you cannot opt into as well, if you wish to be able to have access to those all the time.

If you go to page builder summit.com, and click this button here, get your free ticket, give us your email and your name, and we will keep you updated. That would be really nice. So yeah, join us in a couple of weeks. Stick it in the diary 20th to the 24th of February. And if you wanna know what's happening you can just scroll down and see.

Who the speakers are, it's a whole laundry list. Yeah, just here. Great list of speakers. Look, there's Phil Levine and he was in the chat just moments ago. How cool is that? ? So yeah, come and join us. That'd be really nice. There's a, there's something for everybody, whether you're really into page builders or you're like marketing or SEO or whatever it might be.

There's something there for everybody. Whoa, the comments got all busy. Let's see what happened first when it's sunny. It's sunny. . Hi. Hi there. Leer WP . Let's keep it like that. Alright. Enok. Sonny. Oh, this is Alan. Okay. Thank you, Alan. It's right? This comment is just turning into into, oh, he's here.

Look there. He's very showed up, reliable as ever. Hello from Connecticut. It's zero degrees sea, 32 degrees far. dunno why I find this so entertaining. I just love that he does this every week. Two days ago we were minus 22. Ooh, minus 22 centigrade. That's horrible. Yeah. That's harsh. Yeah, that is harsh.

I hope I hope you managed to get the show that clearly you did. But thanks once again, Pete for for joining us and giving us the weather report here. It's about eight degrees centigrade. It's very nice. I went out for a run a little bit earlier and it was love. Okay. Let's get on with the show properly.

Okay. This is the first piece. This is over on make.wordpress.org. I actually think this is a really nice piece written by Anne McCarthy because it sums up an awful lot of things which are happening in the WordPress space, some of which are very cool, and you never know. These might have missed you and passed you by, if you're not a Gutenberg regular and you don't install the plugin and you play and look at all the changes, quite a lot of this stuff may have passed you, but there's quite a few nice things in here.

Essentially, this post is summing up some of the more inverted commas, important changes that are coming in the near future. And the ones that I wanted to mention relate to. The first thing is this style book. If you've not seen this before, there's an option now to essentially throw a ton of blocks on the screen and it will show you how those blocks will look on your WordPress website.

So if you make any changes, it will demonstrate what those BL blocks will look like. There's a little video here it, and you can see here that it's showing you what all the headlines look like, what the paragraphs and pull quotes will look like. You can collapse it, as you can see on the video, and it just allows you like an overview of everything that's happening on your website.

And I just think that's a really nice idea. So that was. That was point number one. I thought that was really cool. And the second thing, and I'm not sure if I've understood this correctly. In all honesty, there's now an option to change the c s directly in the Styles interface. I think I misread this because it says on a per block basis directly from the styles interface.

And so I. I misinterpreted that as you could globally change the c s for a particular block, let's say on the screen you can see the button block and they've, it's been fiddled with to give it rounded corners before it was all straight. And I thought that then meant that every button on the entire website would obey that unless otherwise specified.

But I'm not sure if I've passed that correctly. I could have got that wrong. And then there's a whole bunch of other things, design tools, and you can copy and paste styles from one block onto another. So in this example, this video here, you can see that there's two paragraphs, and if we just slide it forwards a little bit, the first paragraph, there's a bunch of style adding to it, background and so on.

And all that's happening is they're copying and pasting. It just says paste styles and boom, it just becomes like the other one. So that's a really nice little. Trick as well. They're the three headlines that I wanted to mention. I just thought they were really nice. You'll find this over at make dot, WordPress dot, it's called Core Editor Improvements, strengthening Style Options.

That's awful talking from me. What do you guys think?

[00:14:08] Steve Burge: But things are happening fast with Gutenberg right now. I was writing a blog post, I think we'll come onto a little bit later and was trying to download the latest versions of the ForSight editor in Gutenberg and found a plugin from b p h from Bridget who Bridget Paul Hack.

Yep. Who basically allows you to download the nightly versions of what they're working on and put it on your site last week. I did it on Monday. Okay. Couple of nice features. Did it again on Wednesday. Boom. They basically rolled in. Lots of those changes that you just talked about, Nathan, plus more. Things are really happening fast, I think.

they seem to be wanting to bring it to a conclusion. There was a post saying, Hey, we're bringing the foresight, editing the phase two con sort of section of the Gutenberg Gutenberg project to a close. The final things are coming in quickly. Things are happening fast.

[00:15:13] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I, there was a, I heard a podcast episode on the WP Briefing, which is Josepha Hayden Choi's podcast, and she was mentioning that, and I'm sure I had a link open before we started the show, but I can't find it now.

But in it, there was information along the lines of, I don't know, let's say there were a hundred things which needed to be achieved to get the full site editing finished if you like. We'll come on to this in a minute. And most of those had been achieved. Yeah. But it is changing really quick. I think some of these things are really nice.

What about you? Mark or Rob.

[00:15:46] Mark Westguard: Yeah. I was just looking into that per block custom CSS thing you were mentioning. I can put it, I put a link in the chat, actually, but it's, I'll put it on. It's actually I really like that because, so what you can do is they've added like a CSS box, so you can actually just type in CSS for a particular block or or sitewide.

But the nice thing about it is you don't have to worry about I don't believe you have to worry about the selector for that c s s. You can literally just type in the CSS that you want Yeah. For a particular block and off it goes. So that's really cool. And that obviously makes it a lot more efficient.

I know that they have done that in the past with the c s that relates to. The block itself that you haven't custom written. Yeah. So I think they're just doing this more for performance. So you don't have to, but also just for convenience really. So

[00:16:36] Nathan Wrigley: on the work, so I'm looking at the GitHub post that Yeah.

You mentioned, and there's an image here and obviously I haven't read it cuz you've just shown it to me, but it looks like it's the workflow of how you do it. So you go into the block, then you find, looks like it's the custom css, which is right at the bottom. And then in the implementation they've got here they've added in.

So did this materialize automatically? This WP ? I'm

[00:17:04] Mark Westguard: not sure. I'm not sure, but may, yeah, maybe it did. Yeah, maybe it did. Okay. But that's I think this is like an early mockup. This is like the beginning of the ticket, but

[00:17:13] Nathan Wrigley: okay. And then there's something beneath it and it says this could align well with how it could look for global styles.

. Okay. So yeah, I'm not sure if anybody's in the chat who understands whether that is global or not, that would be really interesting. Anyway, thank you for that. Yeah, it looks good. Rob, anything to add here? Your Gutenberg user?

[00:17:34] Rob Cairns: Oh, yeah. I've been a Gutenberg user pretty well since day one.

As Steve mentioned, it's coming fast and furious. What I would suggest is if anybody is not into that daily troubleshooting, maybe they don't wanna run the Gutenberg plugin on their production site. I know people do, I do. I like to live a little dangerously sometimes . But if you're not into that troubleshooting, just put it on the dev site, play with it there.

There's lots going

[00:18:06] Nathan Wrigley: on. . There was there was something Steve, you wanted to mention here in terms of images and there's been some changes recently. Let's just put your website up cuz you've you've highlighted this in a blog post [email protected] Was Yeah, if you first, if you scroll down

[00:18:23] Steve Burge: a little do, one of the images should show what we're looking at. Yes. That one there. It seems as if they're trying to move the media manager increasingly to this left sidebar, next to blocks and patterns so that you wouldn't just have one media option. You'd have images, which if you hit images it will access what's in your media library.

And then they've also integrated something called Open Verse, which is basically like a creative commons licensed stock photo directory that's actually on wordpress.org at the moment. And so you'll be able to hit media. Hit open verse and then search, I think 600 million images they have there.

[00:19:11] Nathan Wrigley: It's just not . And so the, sorry, go on. Carry on.

[00:19:16] Steve Burge: Oh yeah they picked it up from the automatic word per, or I think, or maybe automatic. Picked it up, picked up open verse like a year or so ago, and now it's gonna be fully integrated into WordPress. I think we're 6.2.

[00:19:31] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. The the options here are, that's pretty amazing, isn't it?

The idea that inside. , I imagining most people are using images on posts and pages. Typically posts feels like the featured image is the place where you're most wanting to do this. And for a blog post, the idea that you could get something almost immediately from like you say, let's say it's 600 million, is pretty cool.

You've obviously gone into the panel on the left clicked on the open verse option and then looks from here as if you've typed in beach. And then h how does this work? Is it, so I'm seeing three images there. Does that just scroll and just, is it like an infinite scroll? You just keep going and it shows you more and more beaches?

Yeah. The

[00:20:17] Steve Burge: same is true with your media library as well. Yep. I think it produces the best result. And then you keep scrolling if you don't like it or change the. How do you

[00:20:25] Nathan Wrigley: feel about that in terms of the fact that it's one column? Because I'm really I personally always have the media library in on the grid view.

I never use the list view, and I like the fact that I can see on my screen, I don't know, there's 10 little icons and then I can see another row of 10 and another row of 10. I kinda like that. I think I would find this UI frustrating. I think if ev, if the image that I wanted was like the 20th in my media library, I'd find this a little bit annoying to go through.

So for me, at least anywhere, I'd prefer like a modal which occupied most of the screen. That's just my credibility.

[00:21:07] Steve Burge: It would probably be helped with the addition of a open four media library link there.

[00:21:13] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. You could have something in there which popped up or took you.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. So now at least, okay, we've got blocks, patterns, and media in the left hand sidebar, and you've got open verse thrown in there as well. Very

[00:21:28] Steve Burge: cool. The idea is that you'll be able to extend this sidebar, so it'll be images, open verse, and then maybe other plugins or maybe other WordPress integrations can add to this list.

[00:21:39] Nathan Wrigley: Open ai. It's gonna come. Yeah. I think the promise of open ai sorry. Open verse is that you can pr basically if you, if an image appears there, you can be. Pretty cer pretty certain that what you are clicking on doesn't have any license attached. Maybe you do need to be a bit more thorough than just clicking willy-nilly and hoping for the best.

But my understanding is that if you find something, there you are okay to use it in whatever way, shape, or form you wish. Cc, what is it? CC zero. Is that the right one? I think that's the right one.

[00:22:10] Steve Burge: Yeah. And some of them, like Unsplash have slightly dodgy or slightly they it's Creative Commons ish, but it's not quite as, as free as the Real Creative Commons license.

[00:22:25] Nathan Wrigley: It wasn't un or by somebody as well recent little while ago. And there was concern that images may have had their license amended. Yeah, maybe I'm mis you know who owns

[00:22:36] Steve Burge: most of these now? Getty? No. Oh, and I only found this out actually by writing this blog post. Things like pixels and Pixel Bay and some of the others.

Go on. Do you know who

[00:22:48] Nathan Wrigley: Canva? Huh? Huh? They've been on Interesting. They've been on a buying whi, which

[00:22:54] Rob Cairns: means Adobe .

[00:22:57] Steve Burge: Oh, Adobe owns Kail.

[00:22:59] Nathan Wrigley: That's correct. Okay. So yeah, it's it's what we feared . So I like this. It seems like a really nice implementation. To be honest with you, I don't really mind what the UI looks like.

The fact that it is there as an option is super cool and is gonna empower a ton of people who have no interest in going to these third party sites. And, looking over there and then downloading it to the desktop, not loading it to the media library, just click a button and boom, you've got it.

Yeah. That's really cool. Thanks for sharing that, Steve. You can find Steve's blog post it's called Open Verse. Stock Photos are coming to Word Press [email protected] There's a blog link at the top in the menu there. So anyway, so some really nice, I think some really nice features that are coming into the ui, especially around styles in the near future.

I feel this style book is really cool. I'm really happy that's coming soon. . Okay, let's move on, shall we? Oh, any comments coming in while, yeah. Thank you. I'm getting endorsed for the grid view. Yeah, absolutely. Anybody? Okay. Anybody using the list view? Ever Buer ever? No.

[00:24:09] Rob Cairns: Bu I use a grid view all day, every day.

[00:24:11] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Isn't it weird yeah, I think there, there's a few situations where I need to use it. Like when I use a plugin called short pixel and it's, short pixel squishes images, it makes 'em smaller. And I think in order to see what it's done, you need to be en list view. But I typically don't use it yeah.

Yeah. I like to be

[00:24:31] Mark Westguard: able to see the metadata on the right hand side as well. So that, the url, the title and everything else, so I wonder if that will be incorporated into that media.

[00:24:40] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, you, so again, are we, look, if I look at Steve's post do you mean, let me just put that back on the screen.

So if we Oh, it is on the screen. Great. If we look at this. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. One of the common title

[00:24:52] Mark Westguard: or Yeah. I also wonder if they're gonna incorporate the WordPress photo directory that they've been working on as well, which is separate from the open verse purchase. That's right.

[00:25:02] Nathan Wrigley: That's right.

[00:25:02] Mark Westguard: Yeah. Actually, maybe that will become another menu item.

[00:25:05] Rob Cairns: And then while we're at it, mark, why don't we just redesign the media library because it's the most neglected part of WordPress and, and the, we the least sexiest part of

[00:25:17] Nathan Wrigley: WordPress, so it's coming, it is coming. That, that is mooted for for the next round of WordPress.

Is it? I dunno if it's 6.3 or if it's just the six Gutenberg phase three improvements, but I dunno what direction that's gonna take. But the talks are, the talks have begun, if you like. There is

[00:25:36] Steve Burge: a post from Mattias on the make blog, which is called phase two finale. and it basically has 6.2 and 6.3 as wrapping up the foresight editing phase before.

And then we're gonna jump onto 6.4 and we might see media library improvements and other things.

[00:25:59] Rob Cairns: Yeah, I had mattia Steve on my podcast back in December, and he, at the time indicated it would be after six two that they looked at the media library. So yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm hoping to see it soon because it just needs a refresh, like really

[00:26:16] Nathan Wrigley: bad.

let's put that conversation on the shelf cuz we've got a post in a minute from Yos de Volk all about the WordPress admin area and whether or not it needs a cleanup. So we'll just put that on hold. But I think you're right. Mark, one of the common uses that I have is to is when I put an image in, is to get the, the description and the alt text.

Don. And certainly in this UI it doesn't look maybe you have to insert it and then click on it again and bring up the library. Yeah. Which seems wonky. Doesn't, I just like

[00:26:48] Mark Westguard: to see that as I'm clicking through just to see, get in the right way. Yeah, that's right. But I'm really pleased to see all this styling stuff coming together in, in block editor and it's something I've been waiting for as a plugin developer to be able to latch onto a way of doing it.

Yep. So is, yeah I'm really pleased to see the updates they're about to do. I'm excited about that.

[00:27:08] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, got a few people who have joined us. Michelle. Hello Michelle. She's coming by the name of Stellar WP today, but she's then written this Michelle here. . Hi Michelle. We were talking about photos and I know that this is open verse we were talking about, but I know that you've been involved heavily and not bloating things to the word press photo library.

That's been amazing. And we've got Andrew Palmer joining us as well. Thanks, Palmer. Hello, Andrew Birther. AA has AI image search and you can act and you can use any of the images without attribution to just saying. When you say that, Andrew, do you mean you can search for images that have been created by ai?

I already, or do you mean that you can create your own images with a prompt and then I think you means creating them? Yeah, creating them, and then that's attribution free. Yeah. Okay. You can get back to us on that if you can't be bothered. Let's, but

[00:28:06] Steve Burge: With what? Five minutes in and we've already got the first AI shout out.

[00:28:11] Nathan Wrigley: It doesn't take long. Back to ai again, just back to honestly, it's consuming everybody's, oh, here, look, it didn't take him long. He is ai That was too quick for regular humans to type already created and then you can use Oh, that's cool. Oh, so it's not what you thought, mark? Oh, that's cool. Yeah. So where does that silo live then, Andrew?

Is that, is there like a cluster of, is that like a birther thing where you have created a silo of free to use AI created content, or is that a thing which is just out on the internet somewhere where all of the created images get put? That's curious. That's interesting. So you can search for AI created stuff.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you Andrew. Let's move on. Let's turn our attention to this. All right. Sarah Gooding writes in the tavern, WordPress contributors work towards removing site editor beta label. Forgive me for saying beta. That's the way I do it for 6.2 actually, yeah, the majority of us on the show today probably say it that way as well.

Site editor, beta label for removal for 6.2 release, and yeah I'm not that convinced by this. In all honesty, the. Obviously the beater label is just basically shouting to everybody. Be there, be monsters use this at your own with your own discretion. And if things go wrong and behave a bit in a janky way, you knew, maybe don't have this going into production.

But also, I suppose it speaks to that it's not quite, got all the features yet. We still haven't got all of the things, the whizbang things that we wanted. And this follows a conversation that was had with JHA Hayden, CPO C It was on her podcast, which is called WP Briefing, where she said 99% of the features are ready for phase two.

So it looks like we're ready to rip off the bandage of beta and just have it out there in the world. Now I'm gonna throw this one to Steve initially because Steve. Steve, by good coincidence, Steve put a tweet up this week where he said, I had an interesting experience with the new WordPress full site editing this weekend.

I presume this was in response to what Josepha was saying. My 13 year old is building a site for school and chose a theme that uses full site editing, right? As a new user, she assumed that full site editing is where you create new content. So she built the entire site there, and then there's a further image further down where she's basically created, instead of creating posts and pages, she's created templates for everything.

Steve, just run through your daughter's like errors. I don't really wanna say errors because No. 13 year old and she wants to use it. This is the UI that she was handed. I'm guessing you weren't standing there going no, wait, no Click that click. You just let her rip. And why did it go wrong?

[00:31:18] Steve Burge: Yeah, she'd been doing it as an afterschool project with her friends, and then she'd brought it home after a couple of weeks of work and she'd gone into the Foresight editor and she'd seen a think or the content on the page, and I'm backporting my ideas of how she thought about this. But she'd seen the content there.

It seemed like it was using Gutenberg and it seemed clickable and it seemed like you could edit content there. And she, I think, clicked around and tried to figure out how to edit the content, and she'd stumbled on templates and basically ended up creating a template for each page, almost treating it like it was Dream Weaver.

Like in Dream Weaver, you'd copy the HTML from one page to the next page to the next page. Yep. Yep. And. She'd edited the html, everything ended up hardcoded and the site looked really good, but every she'd made like a 40 page website and she had 40 hardcoded pages. . And it, it seemed to me that there was just like missing a new post button, the ability to edit and create content inside there cuz it, on the one hand, the foresight editing is really cool and it's usable.

And my 13 year old with no WordPress experience was able to whip up a site. But it feels like you should be able to write content in there. And I think other people the, some of the feedback I got on Twitter was that other people have had a similar experience And the, it was, I don't know, it is not often you get to see WordPress like that from a completely fresh standpoint of someone who has no preconceptions and no

[00:33:17] Nathan Wrigley: experience of it coming in.

Yeah. I guess one of the great things about the block editor is that the UI is more or less the same for everything, and one of the worst things about the block editor is that the UI is basically the same for everything. It's I don't know, it just seems, yeah, if your 13 year old daughter can fall into this trap, I wonder how many other people might fall into a similar trap.

But anyway the point of this was all about should we strip the WordPress beater label away from full site editing, and it feels like we're rushing headlong to that point. I just don't know. I let's throw it to Mark and to Rob and see what they think. , what's the rush?

[00:34:05] Rob Cairns: Gmail, which is one of the most popular email clients out there and email services out there had the beta label sorry, I don't say beta.

Nathan . That's okay. Beta label for years . And it was only removed like recently. So like I don't think there's any rush. To me it's more important what you do with FSC or full side editing than what the label is on it. So I think we're all getting hung up on a label and either you want to use it or you don't wanna use it.

You wanna deal with the issues, you don't want to deal with the issues. But I don't think the label means a lot of difference at the end of the day to most developers to be honest.

[00:34:47] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Mark, you have any thoughts on this? Yeah, I just

[00:34:51] Mark Westguard: wonder if they're worried about the adoption of it by having the beta on there.

Yep. It's, I think he's gonna be in beta for a long time. It's an evolving project. If you look at it, from a year ago to where it is now it's come on, beautifully. But in a year's time we're gonna have a lot of changes as well. I've actually decided on one of my client projects that I'm gonna try and build a block theme from ground up.

And I've actually started it and I'm already starting to see some typos and stuff in the documentation. So I really need to contribute and improve that. But I just think it needs a little bit more polishing still before we get rid of that, that beta label. I don't think there's any problem having that beta label there at all.

It doesn't bother. .

[00:35:37] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. To me, if it's by the way, Alan Fuller has given a better description of what beta means. He says feature changes, features may change based on feedback. And given that is definitely where we are, we're hoping for yeah, exactly.

Then maybe that label should stay, I guess if you are opening up a default version of WordPress for the very first time, and you have never used it before and you've got, so you've downloaded it from wordpress.org, you've put it somewhere it's working, and you, your default experience is the 2023 theme, which then says beta next to it.

Does the whole of WordPress feel like a beat? Product because this is how you edit the theme if you like. This is how you edit your headers and your footers. . Yeah, it's difficult. I'm torn. I think for me the red label should stay for a little while. I don't see the rush, as Rob said, but I can see why it might, maybe there's metrics and data about how it's causing people to be a bit alarmed and not get, not try things out and, yeah.

Yeah.

[00:36:46] Mark Westguard: I dunno. It's, once you've learned it, it's a usable system, so maybe they just want to Yeah. I think it's more of a conception thing in terms of newer users coming to it and seeing that beta label and going, hang on a minute why am I using beta software on. I wonder if it does that on wordpress.com if you sign up through

[00:37:08] Nathan Wrigley: the commercial side.

I dunno, actually, yeah, I don't suppose many of us watching this or listening to this probably are heavy, used the wordpress.com, but I don't know. But Ben is saying, don't remove the beater label. And then yeah, I think that broadly seems to be our, the four of us seem to have that opinion. I, forgive me if I've mischaracterized what you're saying, but then Courtney, hello Courtney.

Nice to have you with us. She says, most recent post on core makes it sound as if a, it's a done deal on removing Beeta. Yeah. This piece on the WP Tavern, which is obviously following some of that makes that clear when they're talking about 99% of the features we considered in scope will be in core by April.

That sounds like that's gonna be ticked off fairly soon. Maybe it's a bit of a stone, a tea cup and we've got no. Skateboarding anecdotally, the Reddit, WordPress sub's biggest argument against core is the beta labor. Oh yeah. You say you go. Interesting. Other side of things, and thank you, Alan.

Personally, I think it should be taken off as soon as the planned additional are developed and really stable. I think it's off-put. Yeah. Did. Yeah, I get it. I totally get it. I just, yeah. Yeah. Dunno. But

[00:38:20] Steve Burge: Nathan, some of the, we did a podcast a little while ago about Gutenberg phase three, right?

Yep. Yep. And a lot of the features coming in phase three, such as revisions for every part of the core comments on different parts of site editing. Some of the things they're proposing are really stacking on top of the site editor experience. And so if you are developing phase three on top of something, which is technically beta, like building on.

House of sand, it really would help, I think, to say this is done. It's solid. Now we can start developing more stuff on top of it.

Yeah. Otherwise,

beaters on top of beaters,

[00:39:09] Nathan Wrigley: It's beaters all the way down. No that's that's, I think you've summed that up really well actually. If we are in Indeed, you're gonna move on to phase three.

Having a dirty, great beeta label does make it seem like you're building it on top of a house of sound. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. If you're gonna

[00:39:25] Steve Burge: say phase two is done, I think as a consequence, you have to take the beeta

[00:39:29] Nathan Wrigley: label off. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Anyway, we'll see how this transpires in the next days, weeks, or months.

But thank you for sharing your story about your daughter. That gives us a real insight into what's going on. That's great. By the way, if you want to get your friends, colleagues , even enemies, who knows in on the show, send them to WP Builds.com/live and tell 'em that there's a live show going on and it's all about WordPress.

Send them to that. If they're into WordPress, not like some random dude on the street, that would be slightly off-put. We occasionally get comments in from Twitch and it's just you don't know. You're not interested in WordPress, are you? You're just randomly arrived on this channel and here we go.

If

[00:40:17] Steve Burge: they're interested in ai,

[00:40:18] Nathan Wrigley: they can join us. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. AI is fine. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, let's move on a little bit. The next piece that I wanted to mention, oh, actually we should have my camera is jacking out. I do apologize if I'm stuttering. Can I just ask you three, is my camera behaving weirdly?

Is it all right? Does it glitch or anything? It

[00:40:39] Mark Westguard: just showed the logo for a second, but

[00:40:41] Nathan Wrigley: it's fine. Yeah. Okay. That's great. All right in which case we'll persevere, I should probably have put this piece up and I think, who, who sent me to this one? Was it you just recently? Steve, did you send me this one, or no?

It was no. Yeah. What's this one about then? This is the Mattias Ventura phase two finale. Yes. Basically, you're saying

[00:41:02] Steve Burge: phase two is coming to an. Okay, get ready for phase

[00:41:05] Nathan Wrigley: three. Okay. So he is outlining all of that. I'll add that cuz that wasn't one that I spotted this week. And I'll add that into the show notes.

Phase two finale and giving you a bit of an insight into everything that's gone on. I'll read that and maybe we can talk about that next week.

[00:41:21] Steve Burge: Looks like it went up Saturday morning, I think.

[00:41:23] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, February the fourth. Busy guy I think . Yeah. Whenever you see people posting on the weekend. Okay, let's change tack completely.

So this is something that the Learn team would like you to participate in. It's a survey and it's very short. It takes about, I think they say five to seven minutes and I'll just give you a little recap. So the Make WP Training Team, individual Learner Survey, it says, thank you for taking the time to respond.

It's gonna take between five and seven minutes. The training team is currently working towards updating the needs analysis for the free resources Learn. WordPress, this individual user survey is the first phase in this project and will help us to continue to grow and improve the materials. If you have any questions about the survey you can contact and then Destiny Caro, Benjamin Evans and Puja dsh.

I can never get that name. Dri sorry for butchering your name. And then click the start button and you're off to the races. Like I said, it's gonna take you five or seven minutes. I don't suppose any of you have got anything to say about that. I just wanted to put it on people's radars. If you are consuming these materials, then it would be very helpful if you give some feedback and let them know exactly what you think and where things should be going in the future.

Couple more comments coming. Let's just share this one. Peter says, part of the WordPress mission is democratizing publishing for everyone. I think any confusion of the platform beta, in quotes, can get in the way of that non-developer publishers. Yeah. Thank you. Peter's joining us. Thank you very much.

Yeah, you're welcome. Of course, Courtney. Yeah, go and share it. Courtney will be very pleased that you did go and fill out the survey. It's only gonna, in fact, just do it now whilst the audio is on in the background. Yeah. Go to learn.wordpress.org/individual-learner survey, or you can probably just google individual learner survey wordpress.org and go and fill it out while we're doing this, she says it's closing soon.

When does it close, Courtney? Is it in the next day or two? Or have people got a little bit of time? Because I'm gonna push this out tomorrow, so hopefully it'll still be open by tomorrow. Okay. Let's get into that subject that we were talking about earlier. The Oh boy. When we're talking about the media library, weren't we, and whether or not it was fit for purpose anymore, this is a piece from Yos DeVol, and it's over on his website.

So it's yost.blog. WordPress admin needs WordPress admin UI needs to be updated. Peachy, you've joined us at just the right moment. This is really based around the fact that when Yost 20, Yost version 20 came out, I'm gonna say 10 days ago or something like that, they, for the first time ever, they stepped away from.

I'm gonna call it brand guidelines. I don't, that's not a term really, the WordPress way of doing things Yost previously had stuck to the UI that all the things in WordPress typically have, and Yost is basically making the point, look, it's out of date, it just doesn't look up to the minute, there's loads of advancements that have happened in the past decade that people are not making use of.

And so they've gone for their own skin, for their plugin. So it's completely unique. It's yo's only, but he makes the point that a lot of other WordPress plugins have gone down this route. In fact, we've got two plugin owners on the show. We've got Mark with Ws form and Steve with Publish Press. They can tell us their experience in a moment, but because Yost have done it, he's saying maybe it's time to maybe it's time to revisit the WordPress UI and see exactly if there's a way for it to be nicer.

I joined WordPress probably about. I don't know, 2014, something like that. That was when I first started using it. And at that point I thought it was great. I really thought it was the bees knees, but it honestly, I think apart from minor incremental changes, like there was a tiny color change that went on, but everything more or less looks the same.

Doesn't really help if, plugging developers have their own unique one and everybody's, it's a bit cognitive dissonance going into a plugin and trying to figure out what's going on. His point is, wouldn't it be good to have a design system. That everybody could use. And so it's modern and every plugin developer can hop in and use that.

Instead, go and check out Yost version 20. You can probably see a blog post about that on the internet, and you'll get an idea for what their UI looks like. But you can see it on the screen at the moment. It is completely a departure from the WordPress inverted coms way. Alright. Let's start with Mark.

Mark, what was your take on this when you started doing WS form? Did you think I'm gonna go all in WordPress way, or did you think I'm gonna make my own ui?

[00:46:20] Mark Westguard: Yeah, I, so I tried as much as possible to stay within the WordPress admin. There are quite a few plugins to pop out and then, , it's difficult to get back again.

So I wanted to try and keep within that environment as much as possible. My settings page looks like the WordPress options page, for example. So I've tried to try to keep in with it. The problem is there's no style guide for the WordPress admin and never has been. So there's no way for me to add a component in my plugin based upon a standard that WordPress has defined.

You just basically have to look at their CSS and try and do the best you can with it. If you have a look at the private chat link I've sent Nathan Yeah, I'll put that

[00:47:05] Nathan Wrigley: on the screen. So this is this. Oh,

[00:47:07] Mark Westguard: so they've actually made this open source. It's a library that you can use, which I think this is what WordPress.

And so they've defined pretty much, elements for everything that you would need within your ui. I think it's fantastic.

[00:47:24] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, so I'll just pause and explain what's on the screen. Sorry Mark and I'll come right back to you. So Mark found as I was talking he's found the, yo let me just click back and see exactly what it was called.

So it's the Yost UI Library. I will put the link in the show notes, but it's ui dot, sorry, ui library.yo.com. . And there is more or less everything. Boy, this is full on, isn't it? There's everything ITing. It's expensive.

[00:47:54] Mark Westguard: Yeah. They've really gone to town on this. Now, you know whether other people will adopt this.

I dunno, for me to change now would be a lot of work. Yeah. But I do. Yeah. Some people like the different, have admin look within. WordPress. I would like a bit more consistency. Like I said, I try to keep with that, that kind of grace standard look and feel. But in, in terms, for me, like dragging fields onto a form and things like that, there was just nothing there that I could use.

I had to come up with a UI that was was as easy as I could make it to use. The other thing is that there are things like admin themes I dunno if people are aware, but you can actually change the WordPress admin and install an admin theme. Yeah. Which actually causes a lot of problems for us as plugin developers because it changes the size of the screen, it changes fonts, it changes the colors.

So just by changing that font size, that can make buttons wrap and cause all kinds of problems. So I think eventually if we could get to a point where there's a style guide like this for WordPress, that would be fantastic. But I can imagine that the work involved to, to get this done, Yost obviously has the resource to do that.

Maybe where press could adapt something, some of the stuff that they've done. I believe this is all React based, which fits in nicely with yeah. Block editor. Yeah. It's impressive what they've put together. It really is.

[00:49:26] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. As Lockwood have it, I'm actually speaking to Yos later in this week.

We're gonna record a podcast episode, so this will def, I think this will feature heavily in our conversation. This is fabulous. I can't I'm trying to imagine something which is missing. As I'm looking through, I'm thinking what component is there not, and it really looks like they've tried to do almost everything.

This is really great. So thank you. And

[00:49:51] Mark Westguard: they're really nice looking components. Yeah, that to me looks a bit like drop zone, yeah. But it's, they've got all the icons, they ring, then you can adjust pretty much everything you need.

[00:50:01] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. This is the, they're calling it file input. Badges, buttons, alerts, auto complete code checkbox, the, titles, text areas, yeah, you name

[00:50:14] Mark Westguard: it.

So the framework for WordPress, eing, a bit like Bootstrap or foundation, but they've just got everything

[00:50:19] Nathan Wrigley: in there and it's really nice as well, isn't it? , it all looks really modern. So this is obviously what they're doing. Over on the Yo side, peach made a comment what did she say?

Something about, is it on the free version? Where's it gone? Peach's Premium where does she write that? Is that in the comments? Did I miss that second comment down? I think second it was her. I can't see it. Oh yeah. Sorry. I apologize. I've scrolled off the screen. Yeah, so she says, is it yos premium?

I don't know. I'm imagining if they've rolled it out to. premium users, they're gonna have this in the free version. It would seem unusual to have it in two different states, wouldn't it? Yeah. But that's really interesting, your comment there, mark, about the putting in an admin theme. I confess I never did that.

It was always good enough for me and I always thought that's a burden of updating and things just going wrong with that admin theme, so I never really did it. But if people choose to do that and yeah, the button's wrapping or something quirky

[00:51:22] Mark Westguard: like that's slightly, yeah, we actually have to put custom CSS in to get around a lot of that stuff to just get our plugin looking the way it should again.

Then they often have CSS that bleeds into to what we do, so we have to counteract that .

[00:51:38] Nathan Wrigley: So Peach is asking. Yeah, so essentially peach, what we're looking at here is a UI library, which reflects this, I would imagine everything that Yost is talking about, which has gone into the Yost plugin is based upon.

This library that Mark has found. I'm guessing that's what it is. So I think the two sort of overlap. , in that way. What about you? Steve, what route did you take with your plugins?

[00:52:08] Steve Burge: We go with the WordPress core but we've taken a serious look at this Yos library. One of our goals, because we have nine plug-ins with published press, is that they are a little disconnected they could probably do with a design system.

And we looked at the Yos library and we're still considering it. The actual design of it is really nicely done. A couple of our CSS guys are not big fans of Tailwind, which it's built with. Yep. That's more of a personal preference. And. A couple of 'em actually have been through big leaps in the past.

One of them was in Mula and they actually integrated Bootstrap as a kind of design system cuz they had a similar problem over there. They lacked a kind of cohesive structure and they went with bootstrap and then Bootstrap released a new version without backward compatibility and suddenly boom.

So they have a couple of technical qualms about this Yos library, but the actual implementation and the level of detail and the level quality in this is really.

[00:53:33] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it looks really I can't believe I didn't see this actually. This is, it's actually great fodder for my chat with Yos.

Thank you, . It's perfect. This, the podcast has written itself now. Yes. Okay. Nomad Skateboard in Nomad Skateboarding says Yes. It's on, it's in the free version of Yost as well. Yeah. I feel like it, honestly if I had a, like a hundred things that I wanted WordPress to do, it's probably in the top 50 somewhere.

But I, it's not like the admin being updated isn't like number one or two or three or anything like that for me. But I do feel, yeah, there's probably

[00:54:13] Steve Burge: smaller wins, like hiding the, or the advertising notices. Yeah. You, there's probably, it would be nice. Maybe Mark had a good idea. Maybe the best approach is more clearly defining the current system rather than.

Building a whole new one, but there's also probably some smaller wins, like having the admin notice area that could improve the admin experience without any please, without forcing a complete rewrite for . Yeah. For admin

[00:54:44] Nathan Wrigley: developers, by the way I'm just trying to remember the name of it. Ross Winks tool.

Have you come across wp what's it called? WP Admin Turbo or something? Turbo Admin. WP Turbo. This is it. This is the, if you come across, oh I'm not showing the screen. This is. Ross Winks, turbo Admin. We've mentioned it a couple of times in the past. It's a it's actually a Chrome extension. So although I'm looking at a plugin page, I don't actually know what the plugin does, presumably it's got the same feature set, but you can install it.

If you go to the website, Google WP admin, WP Turbo Admin, go to the websites, a Chrome extension. It allows you to to do all sorts of things on every WordPress admin, because it's not a plugin sitting in. In my case, it does things like hide the ads automatically. It figures out that's very likely an ad and sucks it into a little panel and hides it away.

So cool. Yeah. Little hat tip to him I think it's like $30 or something and I believe it's possibly lifetime. I'm not sure about that, but oh, great. Yeah. Look, there we go. Courtney saying Ross's tool is super helpful. Yeah, let me see if I can actually find the website. I dunno if one of you guys can find it.

Turbo admin. I guess it's probably got a very sensible url. By the way. You're looking at my shiny new search engine. I've dropped Google. Ooh, in favor of Neva. Which is dead Cool. I can't see it. I'd say it's dead call and now it's not giving me what I want. It's gone for wordpress.org in every case, every country.

Yeah, . That's right. Oh. Oh.

[00:56:27] Mark Westguard: I don't know. You think there might be a link on the actual plugin page? Oh, let me look. Let me look that. Scroll down. No

[00:56:32] Nathan Wrigley: chat. You need. Oh, thanks. There you go. Oh, it is exactly what you'd imagine. It's turbo admin.com. Let's stick it up. You don't

[00:56:40] Steve Burge: need a search engine, Nathan. You can just ask chat g p

[00:56:44] Nathan Wrigley: t or something.

Do you know what? I've tried to use chat. I'll give you the answer chat g p t a couple of times this week. And it's basically, it says it's oversubscribed and I can see that Microsoft are gonna try and get their money back out of it as quickly as possible. Yeah. Here it is, WP hyphen, sorry. Turbo hyphen admin.com and it will consume your ads.

Plus it puts this like spotlight. If you've got a Mac, it puts this spotlight search up and you can find almost everything on your WordPress site by clicking in here. I don't know if you wanna do posts, create a new post. It'll put everything post related. Cool. By the way nice website, Ross.

I think this is, that's cool, isn't it? Just using it straightaway. Yeah, that's great. Okay, so the, it sounds like the general consensus is we need a new admin, but we're not quite sure how to do it just yet. Okay. Did you get in on that, Rob? Sorry, I dunno if we cut you out of that conversation.

[00:57:39] Rob Cairns: No, not really, but that's okay. I tend to agree the interfaces really passe it looks like yesterday, but the consistency for me is a big problem. So I commend both Steve, mark for actually using the word press experience as much as possible because I think we end users. One is consistency.

So I'm also in the, let's get a style guide together corner, because that would help people be consistent and basically say to them, if you wanna play, you gotta be consistent. And I also agree, let's clear up that admin notices area that has been a sore point of mind for eons and some plugins.

And I, and Mark and Steve will get what I'm saying. , it's a bit of a, an oxymoron cuz you need to do promotion, but I don't think that's the way to do it. I know as a designer when plugins bombard me and you may notices area, I'll go find something else to use and so that doesn't work for me.

So let's clean that

[00:58:49] Nathan Wrigley: up as well. Alan's given us a bit of bit of advice here. That's great. Thank you, Alan. Admin Notice. Redesign is a project that's underway in core okay. Great. Just

[00:59:02] Mark Westguard: one last point on that. Please. The list page you have in WordPress when you click on pages or posts Yep.

That, that is a class in WordPress that we actually use. Interestingly, in the documentation for that class, it says what we're basically about to get rid of this, so please include a copy of this class in your plugin. . Ooh. But it's such a c core part of WordPress. I'm surprised it's flagged as we're gonna get rid of this.

And in fact, I had a, when I did a security review on my plugin, that class itself was flagged as a security issue, . So I actually removed it and I'm now using the WordPress version cause they still haven't got rid of it. I just don't see it going away for a long time. But Yeah, so that, that's just another example of where we try to use as much a WordPress core as possible.

We actually use their list format rather than coming up with our own list page. Yeah, there's Alan saying List table. That's exactly it. , but it's, I don't see it going for a while, but, yeah.

[01:00:06] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I'll just wrap up this thing about the UI here. With what Yost has said, cause I think this kind of sums it up perfectly, it's, he says the following.

The reason for this is simple. This being their brand new shiny ui. WordPress admin components are old fashioned and haven't progressed as they should. We simply can't build a modern interface with them. It saddens me enormously, though. That we've had to take this step. So it's a bittersweet thought process going on there.

But yeah. Okay. Then Alan's, come back again. Look, never will. 30,000. Plug, . Plug in. Swap, right? Yeah. Including your own mark. Yeah. Okay. Now I've got so many tabs open. I'm struggling to see where I'm going next. That's that one. Da. I'm gonna miss that one. Now I'm gonna go to this. Okay, so this is weird.

This came across my radar this week and I put it on here, but then it suddenly occurred to me, I didn't really know what was going on. Anyway, so this is, and I always say this wrong, the W three c, I always say the WC three. I don't really know what's going on there. It says it's being relaunched as a public interest nonprofit organization.

I'll just quote. The worldwide, the world, the Worldwide Web Consortium began in the year, sorry, began the year 2023 by forming a new public interest non-profit organization. This new entity preserves our member-driven approach, existing world worldwide outreach and cooperation while allowing for additional partners around the world, beyond Europe and Asia.

Now I just assumed that's what the W three C was already some sort of nonprofit organization governing the internet and all of the, the different things which happen on the internet. But so this, how is this news? Did anybody else, can you, can any of you just correct me? Wasn't it always a nonprofit and what's changed?

I th yeah,

[01:02:01] Mark Westguard: I always thought it was a nonprofit, and then I actually, I've just brought up the wiki page just to remind myself how it works. There's 459 member organizations, obviously big companies that all contribute to it, but I didn't. Yeah I don't know why it was never a public interest nonprofit in the first place.

I always thought it was .

[01:02:22] Nathan Wrigley: There you go. I just because of its importance, it almost like the bedrock of so much of what we do. It's really important to know this kind of stuff. But yeah, I just assumed that it was Tim Burner's league, who was often known as being like the father of the the hyperlink.

Let's give him that. He says, today, I'm proud. I'm the proud, I am proud of the profound impact W three C has had its many achievements accomplished with our members and the public, and I look forward to the continued empowering advancement. W three C enables as it launches its own public interest organization building on over 28 years of experience.

So there we go. Maybe it's not news at all, but I just Yeah, I was slightly confused. Steve, any insights, Rob, any.

[01:03:06] Steve Burge: Maybe it's becoming a non-profit, open a OpenAI. .

[01:03:13] Nathan Wrigley: Is that becoming a non-profit or is it just not profitable? ,

[01:03:17] Mark Westguard: no. So isn't it like a, it's a limited profit, isn't it? I think it's, it is now.

Yeah. What's that?

[01:03:23] Nathan Wrigley: What's a limited profit? I've never heard of that one. But yeah,

[01:03:26] Mark Westguard: They can only profit on a certain percentage of income. The rest of it has to be churned back into the business. So I guess that protects it from just becoming a cash cow and them never developing it again, so they

[01:03:40] Nathan Wrigley: invest in the

[01:03:41] Steve Burge: company.

Okay. Yeah. See there is a spectrum I think, where someone who is a legal scholar, a lawyer might be able to pass them better than me, but a ghost is in this space as. A nonprofit ev all the money that Ghost makes gets cycled back into its system, apart from salaries. And then there's the Nonprofit Benefit Corporation, which is a corporation with a mission in its heart.

And then there's the Open AI Limited Benefit Corporation, which I think everyone learned about as soon as it went there cuz no one had ever heard of it before. There's definitely a kind of increasing spectrum of organizations and companies that are perhaps a little more mission driven, a little more nonprofit, but still making some money.

It's. Requires someone who's has you, you should get a lawyer on on a podcast nation and

[01:04:51] Nathan Wrigley: entangle the That's right. The differences between these. I can't afford a lawyer for this show. Good grief. But yeah, just confusing to me because I just assumed that everything that it is becoming, I just assumed that was what it already was.

But yeah, anyway, an important thing in conversation with the open AI conversation that you were just having there, Steve Andrew saying they can only take profit and the 10 billion from Microsoft House has to be paid back first. Okay. That's interesting. And yeah, , let's also not forget, nonprofits have no salary caps.

I didn't know that either. Okay. There you go. Let's move on. That was just a bit of an aside really. This one came across my radar. It's Sarah Gooding and it, this is nothing really to do with WordPress, it's just curious. There's a new app out there called Engine Awesome. It allows you to essentially create your own, let's call it Sass app.

It creates thing it allows you to bind data to other data and so on and so forth. So you could create a crm. That was one of the use cases that they had. But the reason this is of interest is because they have decided to use Gutenberg as the UI tool for their own SaaS app. And so when you log into the when you log into more Orli, any SaaS app, you see their own ui.

You've got Notion Open and it's Notions ui, and you go to Gmail and it's Gmail's ui and this is the first example. And you can see it right here on the screen. This is how you interact and look at that. It's basically Guttenberg. And this was one of the, this was one of the things that Matt Mullenweg was touting right at the outset, he was hoping that Gutenberg would grow to be much, much bigger than WordPress.

And indeed Gutenberg itself may become the big thing, and there doesn't seem to be too much evidence of that yet. Except here we have a, an, an app called what did I say it was called? Ive forgotten already. Engine Awesome. Engine. Awesome. Is using this to power their ui. There's a lot of technical details here, but I just think that's absolutely fascinating that they, instead of going down the route of doing it themselves, they've just I'm gonna say the words, Ned, but that's entirely wrong.

They've used what is free and available there. They've got a completely different database structure and all that kind of stuff going on in the background. But a lot of their UI looks completely bespoke. But the bit where you interact with things, it was curious. I watched a video on their website and it was, , it was just like creating a post except you were creating whatever it is that you create in the app.

So there we go. Curious and yeah, what are your thoughts on using Gutenberg outside of WordPress? I don't know if this will catch on or not. I

[01:07:42] Mark Westguard: remember Matt talking about that I state the word two years ago and I was up there in New York, I think it was. And I remember there was a contributor there who asked a question about, if I am putting my time in to WordPress, developing Gutenberg, is it right that should then go off and be used or licensed elsewhere?

So I forget what Matt's response was to it, but he's interested to see it starting to happen. I'll be interested to know. , how that actually works how you pull it into a third party platform. But that's quite clever. I

[01:08:19] Nathan Wrigley: remember seeing like just the idea that, mobile phone apps might start using it and things like that because what's the point in building your own ui?

I don't know. I ju when I look at it like that in the context of a SaaS app, that seems really at odds with that. So on the screen we're looking at a part of their UI where you, in effect you're creating like custom post types, imagine it like that. And you've got what looks like the yo UI that we had a minute ago.

It's got that same sort of look and feel to it, and then you drop into that and it suddenly looks very different again. I don't know, I wonder what will happen there? I

[01:09:01] Mark Westguard: guess the ultimate output from it is, HTML with markup in it. Yeah. For adding blocks. So I guess they're ultimately using that part of

[01:09:11] Nathan Wrigley: the system.

I can imagine SAS app developers not really wanting to look the same as everybody else though. Isn't that one of the things when you build an app, you want it to look different and look a bit cool and not look exactly like your rivals are doing. So Yeah, we'll see. That's be fascinating to see.

There's a few comments coming in, but I think they're about the article that we had. Alan Fuller saying there was a big push to put Guttenberg into the wp.org support forums. While she may think it or may think it all WP it is not when you think about it. Yeah. I dunno. It just, this just struck me as quite interesting cuz it was the first implementation that I had.

I've reached out to the guys behind ex engine. Awesome. To see if they wanna come on a chat on a podcast, and exactly what their thinking was around that. Yeah. It'd be interesting. Yeah, indeed. Okay. Anything Steve, anything Rob? If not, we'll move on.

[01:10:10] Steve Burge: Yeah. You know what, when we did our conversation about Gutenberg phase three, I said that I got most of the information I could find about phase three from a repo on on automatic.

Automatic has a, I'm trying to find it now. I'm frantically typing in the background. That's okay. But there is a repo on the, on automatics GitHub. Which is entirely focused on this and has some issues and some details on integration with, say the, with the WordPress app, with Tumblr with a variety of different use cases for Gutenberg outside of WordPress itself.

And I'll tell you, I'll try and grab it later to

[01:10:57] Nathan Wrigley: point. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Let's take and put it in the show notes. I'll stick it in the show notes. Yeah. The I think Tumblr isn't the intention for Tumblr to adopt the block editor as well?

[01:11:07] Rob Cairns: Yeah. No, no question Nathan, but Tumblr's owned by automatic can.

Yeah, exactly. Mind. Yeah. But going back to what Mark was talking about Matt's conversation at State of the Word two years ago, he actually envisioned, and I remember hearing Matt talk about Eds or at State of the Word or on a podcast, I can't remember where, and he said he thought Gutenberg would be adopted across the open source industry.

So he, he's envisioned that. So I'm not surprised it's gone this way. Be honest with you.

[01:11:37] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I I thank you, Steve. You found it. It's. It's called the Isolated Block Editor, and it's a GitHub repo. It's one of automatics projects, and it, you'll find it at github.com/automatic with two ts slash isolated dash block dash editor, and I'll stick it in the show notes.

Yeah, interesting. It's not exactly, it's not exactly how Rockets underneath it though, has it, given that we're several years in, this is the first implementation that I know of it, at least. Anyway I imagine there was hope that it would be adopted more, more widely and quickly than that. But let's see.

I'll chat with the guys and see what their experience has been like right now. This is the difficult thing. I've now gotta see where I am with my tabs. Oh, yeah, sorry. A little bit of self-promotion. Not really more about Robert Rolly than me, but I did a podcast episode with with Robert Rolly from Patch Stack, and we recorded the conversation in January.

We'd dis we'd agreed to have the podcast in, I think something like mid-November. We thought we'd get on a podcast and chat about internet security, WordPress specifically, but then the whole, more or less, all the podcast episode got hijacked by what happened over at Last Pass. And I don't I just want to get into that a little bit, if that's okay.

Anyway, it's podcast episode number 61 on the WP Tavern website. There's a link at the top of the of the page, wp tavern.com/podcast. Look for episode 61. It's in there. I dunno if you guys use a password manager if your life has been turned into turmoil ever since last pass. But I've had to spend quite a long time changing things and I'm still not through it.

Bit of backstory, your, if you've got a last pass account, your data as of let's, oh, I don't know. Let's say at some point last year it was nicked. and it's encrypted. So depending on the strength of your password, it's encrypted against brute force attack as a function of time against how difficult your podcast, as podcast, how difficult your password was.

So if your password was, I don't know, trifle give up, it's all gone. But if your password was a load of pseudo random noise, you've probably got a couple of centuries with the current state of technology. But I, it really did throw me to a loop because I I totally bought into the whole dream of it.

I thought this data was immutable. I thought it's , nothing. So I've thrown everything in there. I've got passwords, na, social security details, all of that's in there. And I'm now dreading that because whilst I can go and change my I can change the website for all the properties that I'm on.

It's a bit harder to change my national insurance number and I'm not gonna change my bank. But some of the banking details ended it up in there. And so I don't know, I just wonder if some aspect of the internet broke for me when that news came out. Some trust that I had that technology could store this stuff safely.

I dunno, I'm gonna throw that open. Discuss,

[01:14:58] Rob Cairns: can I jump in there? Yeah. So the fir the first thing is kudos to Robert having a conversation with you. People need to listen to him. That's the first thing. The second thing is, as somebody who spends a lot of time in the security space, locking down websites, I have already dubbed 2023, the year of the vulnerability.

So in. Canada and US. We've seen at least six or seven major corporations that have been including two hospitals in the Toronto area that have been hacked in the last month and a half, and we're only at February 6th or something. So we gotta keep that in mind. So what it tells me is if the big companies are having problems, the small users of the WordPress websites need to start getting real about this stuff.

Now, one of the tips, I had a conversation with Kathy Zn, who's one of your co-hosts, and I actually shared the tip in episode 2 98 of my podcast if February. Anybody wants co-listing to it. And Kathy had picked this tip up off of somebody else. And it basically means you put your passwords in the password manager and at the end of every password you have a common word or phrase that only you know that you don't store in your password manager.

So for example, if your password is A, B, C, D, and your phrase is coffee, 1, 2, 3, 4 pound, you don't put the coffee 1, 2, 3, 4 pound in the password manager and you append that to every password. Yes. So that inherently makes your password manager more sick here. Now the other problem is to beat on last pass, the biggest problem there is they have changed management structures five times in the last two years.

So they were originally on their own and they were bought by LogMeIn and they were spun off and then they were sold to an equity firm and it goes on. So when you are in the security space and you're spun off five times, have you have any continuity on what you're doing? Yeah. Yeah. And personally, I hate to say this company, I think they're finished.

They're done. It's just a question of when. So if you haven't moved, now's the time to move. But here's the other problem. , if you've got passwords in that vault, and Robert would tell you the same thing, you need to change all those passwords. Yeah. Now, and that's the biggest thing. So what I think you need to do as an end user is be aware of what's going on out there.

And this should be a lesson for PE for site owners. Because again, if big companies are getting hacked and you're not doing the right things, you're gonna get hacked too. And that means having backups and backups that you've tested that can be ReSTOR. because if you can't restore a backup, your backup is utterly useless too.

So do the testing before you get to that point. And that's

[01:17:56] Nathan Wrigley: my two sons working. I think one of the things which shook me a little bit was also the lack of communication from Les Pass. They were very good at not telling anybody that this had really, it was couched in a blog article, but you had to read between the lines a little bit.

But also it seems that the implementation that a lot of people had not a lot of people, I think it's a small subset of their users, but the number of hash cycles that was applied was very low. In some cases in Ma. In my case, once One, yeah, one. There were several people if you were an original, so basically forget it, give it up.

You've, it's, yeah. In my case it was the, it was their recommendation of 100,001, but even that falls well below the 350,000 that is recommended by, I forget who recommends it. But anyway, so it was all of that. Yeah, it was all of that lack of communication. The fact that they're just carrying on as normal.

You don't see any evidence, edit evidence on it, on their website. And I think a bit like you, Rob, I think maybe they'll be finished with by some sort of class action lawsuit. As soon as somebody can definitely say, look, my whole identity has been hijacked and it's as a result of stuff that was in last pass.

I like your idea.

[01:19:07] Rob Cairns: And they dropped this and they dropped this two days before Christmas. Just, yeah, it's great. It's try and say, Hey, we dropped it and they tried to hide in amongst the Christmas season. They had been lying, and I'll use the word lying because that's my opinion folks, so don't sue me.

But I think they've been lying to their public for months. This got worse and worse as it went. Deception, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. And security's all about trust and how do you trust the company? That's not upfront.

[01:19:36] Nathan Wrigley: I've, yeah, I've given up on them. I have an account, so I'm gonna wait until that, till the subscription on that runs out because I don't see why not.

But I've, my personal decision I've carried on using an online, Password manager. So Cohen, who's in the comments said you sort, the concept of an online password manager was a bit of a recipe for disaster. Do you know what, six weeks ago I would've said, no, it's fine. And now I'm I'll eat that humble pie.

Cohen, I think you there's maybe some wisdom in what you are saying there seems like sage advice now, but do mark and thing Sorry Mark, just before we move on, go ahead Rob. Sorry

[01:20:17] Rob Cairns: Rob. Sorry. I just wanna add two quick things and then I'll turn it over. One is make sure you turn two FA on, but that's not secure because always, because Facebook has problems with two fa right now.

But do that and then start changing your use passwords on a regular basis. Stuff you use all day all the time. Sorry, go ahead.

[01:20:36] Mark Westguard: Nathan, was your identity stolen when Michelle came on looking like.

[01:20:41] Nathan Wrigley: Ah, now yes. . Oh no. Was it around that time? That was crazy. Now that you say it, that is, she was clearly part of the last past breach.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. My,

[01:20:53] Mark Westguard: my thought is, I'm with Cohen. I've never trust, I've never had trust in these online, I online password storage. I think you, if you've got a database with a thousand passwords in it, they, those passwords are then only as good as the password. I know.

Protecting that. I still use a very old piece of software on my computer called security. It's not even the latest version cuz I don't even like the new version, but it just sits on my computer. I have a backup of it. And it doesn't go online anywhere. It doesn't leave the office. And I just prefer it that way.

I think these passwords, storage mechanisms, they bring a great deal of convenience. Yeah. You can get it, get to it on your phone and on every computer and everything's synced up and it's all nice. But when it, I've got what, 1600 passwords from what, for my client base. And if that suddenly got released, I, my business would shut down.

Yeah. I, it would just, it would be a disaster. And it's not worth it to me to have that convenience. So I'm still a little bit old school when it comes to passwords, .

[01:22:04] Nathan Wrigley: So how, so let's say that you are outta town like you were at Word Camp, y'all, and you suddenly need to log into something. I don't know you you've got logged out on your iPhone or something. Do you just wait until you go home or is there a mechanism for No, I've got

[01:22:18] Mark Westguard: it on my laptop.

[01:22:18] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, your laptop comes with you. Okay. Yeah. So everybody, next time Mark, just Nick's laptop, that's need

[01:22:25] Mark Westguard: my laptop. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that, that.

Password protected, obviously on the machine itself. Yeah. Yep. The get, getting into it and getting into the password things only, so much you can do really. But yeah, I'd I just prefer having that in my realm than it being out there in the cloud

[01:22:40] Nathan Wrigley: somewhere here. Here's an interesting one because I've ended up going to Bit Warden, which is another alternative, right?

. So basically what I've done is I've just, I've just imagined that whole problem never existed, but another service will fix it. , I don't see that there's a great deal of difference, except there's a couple of little nuance bits. But there is one product called One Password, and one password has to be seeded by something.

Only you know, in theory, don't go writing it on a tattoo on your forearm or anything like that. But you can give it a seed, and if somebody steals the data, it's not just the password. , you need to have this other thing. So if they get your password, if they hash that it, it's useless because they can't do anything with it.

So in other words, it's almost like two FA for the vault. So that seemed quite appealing. But the more I think about it, the more I should just have something like you, mark, just have it on a laptop and carry the laptop. Yeah.

[01:23:38] Mark Westguard: Oldschool works better for me. I think, Rob, we had to talk to this, but wasn't there just some aspects of Last Path that just were not encrypted at all?

They just left them as plain text in their

[01:23:48] Nathan Wrigley: database. Yeah, they were fields. It was Fields. Fields. But tho those fields are so like, oh my Lord. Like password. Sorry. Like the email address and the R url, things like that. Yeah. So it's just, it's absolutely, and there was, check this out.

Somebody wrote a, somebody went onto chat, G P T and said, so you can download that blob of data, right? You can download your last pass of all. Somebody went onto chat, G P T and wrote a Windows. PowerShell app to show all of the fields in plain text and literally went to chat g p t and said, write me a PowerShell script to expose all of the fields.

Yep. In a last pass. But it no more than that, right? It just said that to it and it worked and Wow. And then it said, oh, and we need a new a UI for it. Can you make it so that it's got some kind of ui? And it pretty, it did that as well. .

[01:24:41] Rob Cairns: Yeah. Steve Gibson talked about that in one of

[01:24:44] Nathan Wrigley: his podcast. That was where I got him.

It was on security now. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so

[01:24:53] Mark Westguard: Hold on Twitter. Wia. I'm not gonna

[01:24:57] Steve Burge: let anyone

[01:24:58] Nathan Wrigley: near me. Password feels ripe for picking. Yeah. Honestly, you imagine like that's got to be one of the. That dump of data, that however many petabytes of data that was you, can you imagine what goodness is in there? What stuff could be taken out of that?

IT people are gonna throw millions of dollars at GPUs to get that stuff Decrypted. Yeah. Because, yeah. Yep. Yeah, it's like

[01:25:24] Mark Westguard: mining Bitcoin.

[01:25:27] Nathan Wrigley: Steve, I know that we are running out of time very quickly, so if you've got any thoughts on that, shout 'em out. If not, we'll go and just move on to the last couple of.

Hey, no, my

[01:25:36] Steve Burge: area of expertise, I'll leave that to Rob.

[01:25:38] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, thank you. We'll just very quickly go to this last couple of things. I'm going to just mention this, a nice article on WP having about Adam Silverstein, who is a WordPress core committer. He's talking about whether we should have automate automated performance monitoring for WordPress course.

I'll just mention that. Go and read it. AI has been thrown into SEO press, so in much the same way that with Mark's WS form, you can pre-fill certain fields I don't know, a text area. You can pre-fill that with certain text and things like that. Have I got that right, mark? Is it that kind of yeah.

Prompt. You do conclusion out. Yeah. Thank you. You can now do that with SEO presses, for example, meta descriptions and things like that. It will prepopulate, I dunno how it works. I dunno if it goes and scrapes you. Scrap your content. I

[01:26:30] Mark Westguard: had a quick look at it, and I think what you can do is you can choose a post and then you, from the the bulk edit menu, you can say, create me an SEO title description from the content.

And it'll read the content in and build those out for you. Within there, there are

[01:26:45] Nathan Wrigley: software. Sounds like a really, sounds like a really heavy, expensive, but I be, I guess there's no way of Yeah. Going around it in any other way if you've gotta read the article. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, it's a nice update.

If you've got SEO press 6.3 throws that in. What you've gotta do is you've gotta, like N Ws form, you've gotta link it with your a p i token so that when your $18 worth of free open AI stuff is expired. You can start paying for it cuz it's not free and Microsoft need to get their 10 million back as quickly as possible.

Yeah. Plus . 10 billion. Yeah, 10 billion. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Hundred billion. 20 quid. 20 quid. Ben's offering and a bag of scampy if you can. Nick laptop didn't last long. He's half,

[01:27:31] Mark Westguard: he's gone down to 10 pound

[01:27:33] Nathan Wrigley: now. 10 pounds and some bull bearings. Why the bull bearings? What do you want those

[01:27:37] Rob Cairns: final offer, Joe?

Title? How do we hack marks to laptop .

[01:27:42] Mark Westguard: It's a challenge now lemme

[01:27:44] Nathan Wrigley: just down. How do we,

[01:27:49] Mark Westguard: marks

[01:27:51] Nathan Wrigley: got

[01:27:52] Mark Westguard: going off grid again. I'm going off the grid. You gotta disconnect my

[01:27:55] Nathan Wrigley: ethernet cable. Yeah. Again, final offer, 10 pounds. Says Ben. And he also says that he's tried out the SEO press stuff and it works.

Super cool. Okay, great. I've got SEO press, so I might try that last. Couple very quickly go to chat, go to Cat g p T and experiment with it. It's brilliant. . It's what the internet was invented for. If you thought pictures of cats was fun, this is more fun. And just type in the word meow. Cuz that'll give you a nice response.

And honestly, I don't wanna hold you guys for too long, but we'll make this the last one. Everybody's concerned that AI is starting to. Cause a few problems. Let's say in the example that a lot of teachers in America in this case are complaining that they're students. So we're talking like children as opposed to university older people.

They're now submitting work which has been written by ai. I dunno quite how they've figured out that it was written by ai, possibly because it was like a thousand times better than some children were. Expect no errors. Yeah, that's right. No errors. Yeah. And so this is a problem, right? Nobody wants children getting certificates for things that they didn't deserve.

That's not really a great incentive for anybody. But so what's happened is open AI of . You can't make this up. Open AI have release open AI have released their own tool to spot when open AI has created something and , guess how off. Guess how well it works is how well it works. It can identify mere 26, 6% of stuff that it wrote and it incorrectly 9% of the time.

So call it 10, shall we? 10% of the time. It's a false positive. So something that a child sat diligently wrote, one in 10 of them is getting told no. It's an AI wrote that. Can you, this is contained at schools chaos. This is absolute chaos. And you talked a minute ago Rob, about trust, right? Trust is the bedrock of all of it.

Course. This is the stuff of exams, isn't it? If there's no trust that children have submitted. Where are we? I don't , I dunno what

[01:30:04] Mark Westguard: we do. It's like we said last week, Nathan, that we're probably gonna have to put cameras on our children actually doing their work as evidence. They've done it, yeah.

Like a driving cam. It's getting

[01:30:14] Rob Cairns: that

[01:30:15] Nathan Wrigley: bad. Yeah. In the uk, like when I was a child, there was this move away from a final exams to coursework. So I, I did these things called GCSEs. Prior to that there were these exams called O Levels. And O Levels was all exam. So you did, when you got to 16, everything was exams.

They moved it so that a burden of it was taken and it was coursework. I imagine it'll flip the other way. Now I imagine we're gonna have to get to the point where it is exam conditions for almost everything, cuz I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, there you go. I think that's all I've got. Is it all I've got, was there anything else?

No, that's it. I think I've got it right. Last little thing, just very quickly. No. Not the wave. It's the new thing on the show. What's

[01:31:03] Rob Cairns: called? What

[01:31:05] Nathan Wrigley: is it? What is a Bob Next? The reason this is common about right is cuz I got a new shelf. It was just too, A shelf was just right there. It's so what the heck can I do with that?

So here we go. I'm just going to I can't make myself bigger. Can I make myself bigger? Yeah. There you go. What is that? What is above news? . What is that an old foot phone? Is it an old phone? No. No. Good guess. Good guess a pipe. It's not pipe. No, it's not a pipe. Is it food? It's not food. Okay. One more guess.

[01:31:36] Rob Cairns: Earbuds or I,

[01:31:39] Nathan Wrigley: something like that? No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this word and see if it helps you. I'm gonna say the word Victoria Knox. . Oh,

A Swiss

[01:31:48] Nathan Wrigley: Army knife. It's a Swiss Army knife. There you go. Oh, yeah. That was lovely shelf work. says, Ben, thank you very much. It is a Swiss Army knife. That's the great bit for this show, right?

Let's do the humiliating bit then. We've all got a wave. Gives us a wave. Gives us a wave. Thank you. Sincere thanks to Rob, to Mark, and to pleasure Steve. I really appreciate it. This show will be coming out as a podcast episode. I hope you all come back on, on another show. Thank you for all of the comments that came in.

I'm really appreciative of that as well. That's really great. Makes the whole thing really said, seem worthwhile. makes the whole thing worthwhile. Oh, , I'm meant to say worthwhile, but seams came out in my head. It makes the whole thing worthwhile. I really appreciate it. We will see you next week. Go and sign up for the Page Bull Summit while you're at it.

Da. See you later. Bye.