This Week in WordPress #289

[00:00:04] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this weekend. WordPress episode number 289 entitled the comments were somewhat broken. It was recorded on Monday the 4th of March, 2024. My name's Nathan Wrigley and I'll be joined by three fabulous guests. I'm joined this week by Gen Herres, by Piccia Neri and Dave Grey.

It's a WordPress podcast, we're going to talk about WordPress.

We talk about WordCamp Canada, and why it's been called WCEH, somewhat surprisingly.

,We also get into the fact that some people search engine journal, we're looking at, you seem to think that WordPress is a cause of frustration and is in decline. Is that the case, or are we just reading the data wrong?

The Cwicly plugin is going away, we get into a conversation about why that's happening.

Are you heading to WordCamp Asia? I'll certainly be there, and if you want to hook up, I would really appreciate that. That would be lovely.

Who should foot the bill for WordPress events? Should it be the volunteers, or should there be a different way of doing that?

And possibly the big story of the week has wordpress.com, Tumblr and Jetpack been selling data from those platforms to AI APIs?

It's all coming up next on this week. In WordPress.

This episode of the WP Builds podcast is brought to you by GoDaddy Pro, the home of manage WordPress hosting that includes free domain, SSL, and 24 7 support. Bundle that with The Hub by GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients, and get 30% of new purchases. Find out more at go.me/wpbuilds.

Hello? Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. It is, I dunno what it is. It's the 4th of March, 2024. It's a Monday. It's 2:00 PM UK time. And what do I do every Monday at 2:00 PM UK time? I'm, I'm either in bed feeling really unwell or I do this show, which is more common, but of late. I've been, I've been a bit remiss, but we seem to be back on a regular schedule.

I must say I'm gonna miss next week as well, because, as Lucke would have it, I'm gonna be in, in Taiwan, hanging out with a bunch of WordPresses Outward Camp Asia, which I'm really looking forward to. But nevertheless, we're gonna do this show today. And as you can see from the screen, are joined by three fabulous word pressy people.

let's go over there first, let's begin with Jen. How you doing, Jen? Good. Very, nice to have you with us. I've gotta say a great big thank you particularly to Jen and to Dave. a big thanks to Peach for joining us as well. But Jen and Dave stepped in at the 11th hour 'cause we had a few people that canceled due to ill health.

And, so thank you for doing that at the 11th hour though really is very, much appreciated. But who is Jen? Jen is an accessibility advocate and WordPress developer with over decade, over a decade of. Experience at her company, easy Ally Guide. She specializes in helping people begin their accessibility journey with done for you guides, tutorials, and tools.

She's also spoken at several events on accessibility, including Word Camp US in 2023. At Anthea, Jen specializes in helping clients solve and present WordPress problems. She also works with a wide, range of clients from multimillion dollar companies to solopreneurs maintaining their WordPress sites with care plans and generally making their WordPress journey less stressful.

She also organizes the Baltimore WordPress meetup and as an is an active participant in many online groups. Thank you so much for joining us. also, like I said, stepping in at the 11th hour. Thank you Dave. Really appreciate that. It's Dave Gray. How you doing, Dave? Very good. Thank you. Glad to be back on the show.

Yeah. I'm very glad this is a last minute step in, but hey, yeah, nevertheless, I'm sure your opinions will be, will be most, most useful. The way that we put together this show is that typically I throw together a bunch of links and I send them out on a Friday at some point. And, and so hopefully, all of the panelists have had a chance to peruse the various different bits and pieces, but Dave is working on heads up wp.com.

Yeah, it's hard, isn't it, that trying to point to the, trying to point to the right place is almost impossible, but you can see it underneath Dave's names on the video. heads up wp.com, a plugin and a new plugin I should say, and service to help site owners monitor their WordPress site, WooCommerce stores.

For preventable SEO end user experience issues. For example, broken product images, broken links, deleted pages, and a bunch more. He's also recently acquired 12 mostly divvy related plugins from WP Plugins Plus. And the idea there is to grow his budding business empire. Nice. You heard it here first? yeah.

Brilliant. thank you Dave for joining us. Thank you. And and Peach. Peach. We know Peach. She's on the show. Hello. She's on this show, not so frequently, but I do a monthly ui ux show with Peach. But how you doing? You all right? I'm very well, thank you. I in, I'm in not so sunny London, but very happy to be Here're.

I'm indeed. Are you, taking a vacation or are you just moved or something? No. I think I've mentioned, I, as many some people know, I used to live here, I lived here for 20 years and then moved to Spain. but in Spain, where I live in the city of Valencia, in the month of March, there's a festival that is completely bonkers and, you see it once and that's fine because you basically can't sleep for a month.

[00:06:03] Piccia Neri: So here I'm, instead, it's my opportunity. March is where I know is the month where I know that I'm off. And I love to spend it in London with them. Oh, there you go. You heard it here first. peach has done a great job at providing a very pithy biography. A peach's biography goes like this. I'm gonna say it in one breath.

[00:06:24] Nathan Wrigley: Piccia Neri UI and ux. Consultant, educator, and speaker. Done. that's it. But let's spend the time that we would've done on the biography. let's promote something that you are just about to, to launch. Actually, let's s that right? Oh, do you wanna,

[00:06:40] Piccia Neri: without any warmup or anything. Okay.

let's do it. Let do it. why the heck?

[00:06:44] Nathan Wrigley: Let's do, so I'm mean shove A-A-U-R-L into, your consciousness. and actually prob, I dunno if Google have grabbed hold of this at the moment, but it's called the Accessibility Typography Masterclass. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about it?

'cause I don't have a webpage available for it. I do have a link where you can purchase it, but tell us a little bit about what you're doing there. I'm sure Jen would be interested as well.

[00:07:09] Piccia Neri: Yes. So this is something that I already did, but I'm doing it again now with a real focus on accessibility because something that I should add to the bar, to the very pithy bio is.

Accessibility, accessibility advocate as well. 60% of accessibility issues originate in design. That's a percentage that you read. And accessibility is, sorry. Typography is an essential part of accessibility 'cause it's the first thing that your users see. And it's also what text and I should say is what Google and tools like that use to, to know, because Google is deaf and blind where he need the Google needs text in order to function.

And so typography but also extend to the use of text is what I think we should all start from this accessibility masterclass. I'm running it with a, another designer called Joe Na. Yes. Thank you for using the code because, I have been trying to get this, I have gremlins in my website. There are gremlins, therefore I've been trying to get the, it, my Beaver builder, actually there are gremlins.

I've been trying to get the sales page ready for so long. That is a disgrace. So this, there's a code that gives you a nice discount of 25%. so grab it because it's the sale ends on the 6th of March. 'cause I'm against discounts for various reasons, but in this case I was like, for God's sake, and also WP Builds.

We love you, we love the listeners to WP Builds. So go for it. You've got time until the 6th of March, you got a 25% discount on the accessibility accessible topography masterclass. Run by Pary and Joe Natoli, who is quite a big name in ux and I'm privileged enough, that he's my friend. The topics that we will touch are of course the basics of typography.

And by the way, if you use typography, the way used the way should be taught, but actually most of the time isn't. You are already a lot of the way there with having an accessible interface. That's my opinion, but there are, there's so much more to it. There's things that we are actually going to teach in a masterclass.

First of all, some mantic and h the ML, which is something that so many the, the vast majority of websites don't consider. And it's essential for screen readers, assistive technology, and also people who don't use assistive technology because it just makes your content clearer. Write properly. So there's gonna be a, bit of it's gonna be a mixture of content design and we were saying earlier, before we came on that, I wouldn't say that I code, but I do code a little bit when it comes to things like this.

I do know what I should know about ex how to build websites excessively also on the code side. So we will also touch on things on, like interactive, text, but also how to write your links excessively, there's lots more than the just the term typography. Would make you think. Okay. So I'd love to see you there.

Sorry, I went on a bit of a rant.

[00:10:55] Nathan Wrigley: No, sorry. It's okay. I get ranting. It's all good. this is what you're gonna see. So the landing page is, this at the moment? Maybe there'll be something that you can Google another time, but, there we go. The, the, self-promotion will continue in just a moment from my side.

so there it is, ary dot thrive co.com/atm. And if you want get some money off, I think it's 25%, then use the code. WP no? Yes. Yes. Wpb the three letters. WPB all uppercase. But I dunno if that matters. there you go. great. I'm glad that we got that in at the beginning, because it gives me thank very much license to much.

No, you're welcome. It gives me license of, speaking of semantic,

[00:11:34] Gen Herres: HTML. Can I just be upset with thrivecart?

[00:11:38] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, have you had a good old poke around at that? Sorry. is it bad? oh, Jen. Oh, Jen. Oh no. We start on a bad Jen. We need some kind of, we need for every link that we show today, we need some kind of noise.

That what Jen, we put it on the screen. Jen can go and do right click, inspect, check it out from an accessibility point of view, and get some sort of angry. Yeah,

[00:12:02] Gen Herres: so I get to start with

[00:12:03] Nathan Wrigley: yours? Yeah. No, mine's really bad. Forget that. yeah, really don't look at mine. I do need an overhaul. Yeah, here it is.

I'm sorry. You do? Yes. WP Builds.com is our URL. we're supported by GoDaddy, so thanks for them. To them for helping us keep the podcast going. if you wanna see what we're doing, probably go to these archive pages and check it out. And if you wanna subscribe, click on this little link there. Just, another bit of self-promotion.

Before we start, we're running version seven of the ever so popular Page Builder Summit. It's coming around in May this year, early May this year. And we're on the lookout for sponsors. We've got a few that have joined us already. 20 I is going to be one. Ws form is going to be one, and so is Maine wp.

But we're on the lookout for some others and you can find the information about what you'll get in return for your [email protected]. Honestly, it have list a thousand reasons why you should do this, but I'll just say. It's fab. Just, it's a really nice event full of really lovely people.

So go and check that out, right? Where's my speaker invite? don't ask me Anin deals with that. I'm just walking away from that grenade. Really careful. I'm just going backwards away like that. I, dunno, Jen, I'm. Here we go. post. Yeah, yeah, I've mailed it. That's what it is. Great response, Dave.

I love it. WordPress stuff. Let's get on with it. no. Let's not get on with it. Let's do the, little live chat comments that have come through. There's always a few. firstly, if you're watching this, appreciate it. really happy to have your commentary. The more comments that come in, the happier we all get, the best way to do that is probably go to this u rl WP Builds.com/live, and you can use the, YouTube comment.

So you need to be logged into Google, or if you click on the little black box, top right of the video player, you can comment in there without being logged into anything. I'm not even gonna mention the Facebook stuff anymore because they're deprecating the API. So we probably won't be featuring on, Facebook for very much longer.

And you know what? So be it. Okay. Courtney's joining us. Hi. Oh, no. Oh, Courtney, it says it's my turn to feel unwell. Thanks for this happy group for starting off the week. Oh. Good luck with that, Courtney. Feeling lousy is lousy and I really hope that you get better soon. Thanks for joining us, Cameron, all the way over in Australia, Brisbane, or the environs of Brisbane.

He says Evening all. Thank you, Peter. Ingersol always drops us a little comment about the weather and today is no different. It's Connecticut that he joins us from record breaking warm weather yesterday. Wow. It's cooler today. 47 degrees. Crazy, format of weather or eight degrees centigrade, which is a sensible format that everybody can understand 'cause it goes from zero to a hundred, cloudy skies.

Anyway, that was my lesson in being patronizing to North Americans. I'm sorry about that. Mr. Panza Dragoo says, good morning and Max is joining us. Quickly will be a topic. it is a topic. It came into my, on my radar. I switched off the computer and then it, I switched on again I think this morning and it was like, ugh.

Quickly what's gone on. We'll get to that towards the end though Max. But thanks for pointing that out. Really appreciate it. Okay, here we go. WordPress 6.5 beta three has been announced. There's a lot coming up in WordPress 6.5. We've covered it endlessly, but just the last chance really, this is the one prior to it going into some sort of code freeze and string freeze and all that kind of stuff.

So you've got a little bit of time left. I don't think. Dave, Jen Cher, have you got anything to add to that? I just wanted to make everybody aware that it was coming a lot. No, just

[00:15:52] Dave Grey: had one little comment just to say the plugin references and dependencies on theirs. A nice little add-on to make sure you can't turn stuff on if you've not got a dependency.

So yeah, that's a nice little

[00:16:03] Nathan Wrigley: lad. Just tell me more about that. 'cause I think I understood what you meant, but I wasn't entirely

[00:16:08] Dave Grey: sure. Just basically from what I've read on there in your plugin file, in the little headers you can say this depends on something else in the repo. So basically if that thing isn't running, yours can't turn on, and if they turn that one off, yours will automatically turn off as well.

Ah. So in time it should make things a bit easier. You don't need to check that, is this thing still running? 'cause it can bake some of that in. But if everyone doesn't update straight away, then you'd still need that. But yeah, it's this nice little, this like WooCommerce has been turned off. If you are doing WooCommerce plugins, they're just automatically turn off as well if you've got the little

[00:16:42] Nathan Wrigley: header in there.

So is that something that would surface at the point of view, installing the plugin? In other words, if I was just installing some sort, like as you said, WooCommerce dependent plugin, if I tried to install that, it would give me some sort of little notification to say, I believe so. I might just say, yeah,

[00:16:57] Dave Grey: I need this bit to get enabled first and just refuse

[00:17:00] Nathan Wrigley: to turn on.

That's really interesting. I've seen that so many times with, upgraded pro accounts for, professional plugins or whatever. you've got the free version and then you get the paid version and you try to install the paid version and it, immediately says you gotta go and get the, repo version.

But I do that obviously you're not stepping into a plugin, which you then find out, hang on a minute, they've got all these other dependencies. just as a point of reference, I came, I Dr. Stopped using Drupal, as a CMS about, Ooh, honestly, probably about a decade ago. and I was using Drupal for about six years before that.

So it's just going back about 16 years ago. Drupal had that. 16 years ago that warning about dependencies, don't even try to install this module, they're called because you can't, 'cause it needs this other thing to run and it gives you the option to do. You wanna install all of the dependent things now and you click a button and it just goes on in the background.

yeah, that's really handy. Let's confusion for all of us. Okay, thank you Dave. That well spotted. Okay. Oh. We love WordPress events. I was just mentioning that I'm, gladly gonna be at an event, in the next week. And obviously from some of the bios that we had, there's a lot of interest amongst our panelists about attending WordPress events.

brand new one for you. if I'd have been not been on well and done the show more regularly, we probably would've covered this in great depth when the news announced, but this is the first time that I've really had a chance to, word Camp Canada, has come around. Word Camp Canada is now a thing.

I actually can't think, and I'm probably being a bit naive, I can't really think of too many countries apart from the US which have a word camp. Like for example, is there a word Camp uk? No. I don't know if there's a word, camp France or a Word Camp Thailand or what have you. but I, really like

[00:18:54] Piccia Neri: the idea Work camp.

Work Camp Spain happened during the pandemic. huh And I dunno whether it's gonna happen again, but it has happened. So

[00:19:04] Nathan Wrigley: it is a thing, but it's not a particularly common thing is it? And in some ways, I guess post pandemic, it's quite a neat way of, of organizing everybody into the one event. if you're from a country like me, the uk, which is teeny tiny.

Then, it's really straightforward to get there. if it was, let's say it was in, I dunno, Liverpool or something, and it was Word Camp UK and it was in Liverpool, we could all get there in under four hours or five hours or something like that. But I guess something like Word Camp Canada, word camp us, maybe that's a little bit more problematic.

Anyway, it's come around first ever Word Camp US is calling out, for speakers, sponsors and volunteers. This piece was written on the tavern, during the Hunger Games period, by James ue, who is Canadian. And he really leans into being Canadian in this piece, which I really appreciate. James. So Bravo for that.

I thought that was great. but he's essentially saying, word camp us, which we all know about is a regular event. We wonder why the Canadians need one after all. They're right next to each other and it's not difficult to travel between the two countries. And it summed up very nicely in four words.

The reason we need it is because we are different, which I thought was great, with different. Same, but different. Anyway, if you are interested in that, you want a sponsor, you wanna volunteer, you wanna be a speaker, maybe go and check out the website, wp tavern.com. You can find this. It was released on the 26th of February, and there's a link to the Word Camp Canada page.

Anything from you three about that, or events in general WordPress events? Let's open it right up. Off you go. I have another question. let's go picture first, then we'll go, Jen. Yeah,

[00:20:47] Piccia Neri: I, it's a different question actually. You said that the, Hunger Games period, so is that over now? Has it been announced?

[00:20:54] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it'll be over very soon if it's not over already. Okay. I think it'll be over in a period of, in a matter of days. and then I presume that, I'm guessing it'll be Matt Mullenweg will go over, what's been submitted and what the, whatever the metrics are, and then two. Are supposed to be selected, whether or not that changes, I dunno.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Thank you Jen?

[00:21:22] Gen Herres: yeah, I've seen comments about Word Camp Canada for, whoa, probably nine months now from when the organizers first started talking about it. Anyway, it's supposed to be in Ottawa, which is absolutely stunning. Normally in the summer. Oh, nice. It's be, it's, just north of the Adirondack Mountains in, upstate New York, which is pretty much where I grew up.

So I can tell you, the weather is normally really quite gorgeous up there. Oh,

[00:21:51] Nathan Wrigley: nice. there you go. Can anybody help me out here? It's 'cause I'm guessing that James has got this a hundred percent correct, but it says Word Camp Canada and then, it says WCEH. I don't get that bit.

What's the, what's, does anybody understand the significance of, eh, is it 'cause ca. Would maybe conflict with California or something and I don't, I dunno what the, eh,

[00:22:15] Gen Herres: anybody, I don't know. My guess might be it has something to do with French. Oh, Ottawa was very close to the Quebec province. Quebec was side, so sometimes they try and pull in both the English and the French.

Okay. But I don't speak any French, so

[00:22:33] Nathan Wrigley: I can't help you there. Yeah. anyway, if you are, if you're Canadian or you felt fancy going to that event, or you fancy speaking or what have you, check it out on the website and, Dave, anything on that? Or should we press off all. Okay. Alrighty. A few weeks ago, we featured an article and I don't normally feature articles from Search Engine Journal because they're not usually directly related to WordPress, but this particular article was, they've got a pretty big reach, I think Search Engine Journal seems to be quite popular.

And they released a, an article all about the, really you could sum it up as the growing dissatisfaction, as illustrated from the annual survey that was taken for the year 2023. at the end of each year, a survey goes out and it's got a whole bunch of questions and people, contribute to that.

And really, it's a, good litmus test, for the state of WordPress as contributed by the community. and it came out as a fairly pessimistic read. there didn't seem to be an awful lot of confidence in, in the software. There seemed to be, I. Basically it, it seemed to be a relentless, pessimism was coming out of it.

And, really this article, which has come from WP Mayor, it's called do WordPress Annual Survey. Results reflect reality in 2024. I think they're just trying to put the brakes on that and say, hang on a minute. Search Engine journal in particular. we've got some problems with this. Firstly, it was a survey completed by about 4,000 people, and you can imagine the, user base of WordPress, honestly, it must be millions.

I would've thought, truly to reflect that community, it would be millions. It, there are 4,000 people contributing. They make the point that I wonder if people who have got an ax to grind maybe are drawn to that survey a little bit more. if you've got, if you've got something that you want to get off your chest if you like, then maybe that's, a good way of doing it.

They also talked about the fact that, the fact that the language barrier may be, difficult for people to fill out that survey. the community stretches the globe and I imagine many of the people using WordPress are really only using it in the one language, which is their, preferred version.

So really what they're saying is calm down. WordPress, search engine journal people calm down. search engine journal was saying that people were troubled by the ease of use, the flexibility, the cost, and block themes. And anyway, this article was saying can we just calm down? Can we give it a little bit of time to perculate?

So I dunno what your feelings are. I dunno if you are sensing this in the communities that you hang out again, not from me, over to you. So

[00:25:17] Gen Herres: I run a meetup group and we're now over 2000 people. Yay. That's a lot. Recently hit 2000. And one of the things is most people honestly do not think that the powers that govern WordPress care whatsoever about their personal opinions.

And I've heard that echoed in many other groups, including people I talk to when I was at Word Camp US, is that the, powers that be just don't really care about the feedback from the masses so much.

[00:25:54] Nathan Wrigley: Do you take from that, that if they were presented with a survey, they simply wouldn't fill it in because they just

[00:25:59] Gen Herres: don't fill it out.

And the other part is anytime you ask for feedback from people. it's just human nature, if you have a bad experience, you go immediately, tell everyone else about it because when you got burned by fire 2000 years ago and you told everyone else fire is hot, it burns you, be careful.

That was literally survival of the human race. And we still do that. We have a negative experience that is extremely memorable to us and we are much more likely to proliferate that and tell other people about it than if we had an okay experience. If it was okay, it was fine. We moved on, barely even registered in our memory, but a severely negative experience.

You tell everyone.

[00:26:47] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I think that's a good point and definitely made in that article that the, the 4,000 people may be, there's maybe a proportion of those. have some ax to grind. Dave Peach, anything you wanna throw in the lot here? Yeah, I think

[00:27:02] Dave Grey: as sort Jen said, people either tend to complain a lot if it's minor or really inconvenient, but it'll have to be super duper wonderful to actually like, I'm gonna actually put pen to paper or type something about this bit.

So it bit like your NPS scores, it's, you gotta be really, good to get someone to say, actually that was acceptable British way. oh,

[00:27:21] Nathan Wrigley: super duper. Yeah. It's all right. Yeah. yeah, it's a point well made, peach, anything to add?

[00:27:30] Piccia Neri: Yeah. Although I have to say that I also, have heard gathered on the ground in Spain this kind of feeling that the powers that be don't really care.

But I agree. I completely agree. I actually have been making a point recently of. Writing and taking surveys when I am happy rather than when I'm unhappy to buck that trend. But it's true. I agree entirely.

[00:28:00] Nathan Wrigley: so the, this article really is trying to paint a, less pessimistic picture, but it may be that given the people that you hang out with, maybe this is in fact the feeling, peach certainly sounds that there are people on the ground where she is that do have genuine complaints.

so maybe it's a bit of swings and roundabouts. Maybe there's something in this, maybe not. Anyway, it was worth pulling up because I, I read that article and I just believed it wholesale. I thought, oh, the sky is falling in. And of course maybe that's not entirely the picture. We had a problem last week when we did this show in that some of the comments that were coming via YouTube, were, not coming through to the platform that we use.

Typically, the comments come into this platform and I can press a button and they go up onto the screen, only a subset of making it through. I did file a report with the, support channel that run this platform and they were looking into it, but I apologize if I don't raise your comment onto the screen, but I'll just raise a few quick ones.

Firstly, Elliot Richmond was saying hello, all the way from Cheltham. Thank you very much indeed. Courtney Robertson was saying that the Hunger Games for the WP Tavern, ends on the 15th of March. So we've got another 11 days or so. So I, and in fact, one of the people has only just begun writing, so I think they've got their, little bit of time to run out.

and that's based upon the Brian Cord start date. She said. She also says, Canadians say a. or huh? Or, yeah, apparently. and oh, Elliot says that, eh, as in wc, eh, Canada in print is used primarily to signify Canadian with many websites. What does it stand for? A, they say a, lot, eh? You know when the Canadians finish their sentence, they say a.

[00:29:52] Gen Herres: That's actually regional. I've found that there are quite a few Canadians and it depends on what region of Canada they're from, whether or not they throw a in all the time. Okay.

[00:30:02] Nathan Wrigley: But that's interesting that would make it in as the word camp A just they survey 4,000

[00:30:08] Dave Grey: Canadians to get the answer.

[00:30:09] Nathan Wrigley: That's right. Yeah. We need to survey them to see if they're slightly, see if they're offended by that or not. I would never have thought of that. That's fascinating. Anyway, thank you Elliot. If that is indeed true, that's absolutely fascinating. I guess it's a bit like, I don't know, picking up on something, calling Word Camp uk, something like Word Camp Watcher or something.

something like that. Ready ho. Let's move on. Let's move on to this next piece. this is to say, I don't really know how to pause this because of about what I'm gonna say almost immediately after I've said it. so here's another acronym that I didn't understand until Jen helpfully came along and made it obvious support inclusion in tech.

it, this is coming from the WP Tavern. I'll just read the title again. Support Inclusion in Tech is fundraising to sponsor more marginalized WordPress contributors. so support inclusion in tech with the acronym sync, SINC, which I couldn't pause no matter how much I thought about it. But then Jen said, yeah, but it stands for support Inclusion.

And then it was obvious is now fundraising on the Open Collective platform. Founded in spearheaded by WINS Hughes, sync assist underrepresented word crest contributors and provides financial support to WordCamp speakers for travel. And cost. It does seem like they've done this before. And if you actually go to the click on the link, the Open Collective link, you can see the kind of ways that you can contribute.

so for example, there is a package, they're looking for 425 US dollars to send somebody. as a, as to pay for somebody's travel. I'm guessing that would contribute towards an airfare, $500 to pay for some hotel somewhere or other hotel and travel sponsorship, nearly a thousand dollars.

flagship organize a sponsor anyway. You see the point. You can, opt in as an individual or you could, I guess as your company, you could contribute to one of these little pots and thereby, hopefully send somebody along. It's fabulous endeavor until you read this, which was sent to me, I think by Tim Nash.

I think Tim sent me this during the week. this is quite sad because the platform that seems to be running that. That whole thing, taking the money and what have you. Open collective.com has put a blog post out at the end of last week, February 28th, to say, dear Open Collective community, it is with sad hearts that we have heard the news that the Open Collective Foundation's decision to dissolve in December 31.

and then if you scroll down a little bit more the last day to accept funds. Is the 15th of March, coincidentally the last day that the, hunger Games on the tavern ends. and so that kind of puts this up in the air a little bit. This fabulous initiative that I was gonna mention now suddenly appears to be homeless in terms of the capacity to take funds from the next few weeks.

So let's break that into two stories. The first one is, what a fabulous endeavor this is. I love stuff like this, being able to contribute and maybe we'll deal with that first, and then perhaps later on we'll come to this open collective collapsing or going out of business. I think it's a for-profit.

So obviously, they had to pay the bills and what have you. but what do you think about this, the support inclusion in tech? It's obviously not brand new, but it's been written up on the tavern, so I thought it'd be worth mentioning. What a lovely initiative.

[00:33:42] Piccia Neri: Do you remember, Nathan, that I think we did an episode where we, I.

Of the UX show where I reviewed their website because I, I'm, aware of the initiative. I know it very well because I know wins and when she set it up, we, I helped her because I have been a recipient of funding as a, as an under underrepresented before Suppo Support Inclusion in Tech existed.

And then my last, I think it was my last funding, it put through support inclusion in tech. So I applaud the initiative. I think it's great when St is tireless in her work and she's a, she doesn't even work with WordPress. She's got a completely different job. I think it's a government job, so she really does it entirely for the good of the community.

So a big round of applause for Wisdom's initiative, better than to activate me. Nathan on what I think about this issue in general, because I think, and, very, I very strongly, ever more strongly think that this should not be needed and speakers should be, and contributors, first of all, organizers.

in general, it, we shouldn't ha people shouldn't have to go look for support because it's not as easy as it'd seem. It's actually quite hard. It's a big time suck. And in general then it's much easier for a speaker who has a job and therefore they get funded by their company.

[00:35:22] Nathan Wrigley: just to be clear, Pete, the way that you, I, personally, no.

Just to be clear. 'cause the way that you phrased that, it could have gone, it, it felt like it, you could have understood it in two different ways. You are saying, I'm pretty sure that I've got this right. You are saying that these should be paid for positions. if you are gonna speak at an event, you should be paid to speak if you are gonna volunteer, rather if you are going to have organize event, your costs covered.

Yeah. Okay. Your costs are covered, at least the costs

[00:35:50] Piccia Neri: should be covered. This, it's an incredible, it the amount of time and energy that all of the, these initiatives take up, both for the wonderful people like wins that organize them, but also for the speakers. It's not straightforward and, and it's a way bigger conversation.

I'm not gonna go down that rabbit hole, Nathan, my position, so I'm not gonna but, let's just say well done. It's, wonderful. What a shame their open collective is shutting down. But

[00:36:24] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Okay. so great idea. However, we can't put it on the screen because it hasn't, it's one of the comments that hasn't come through, but I can read it out.

Okay. That's Courtney, who says, I quote the WPCC, which is the, WordPress Community Collective. so they use the same platform, for a, similar but different set of goals, but the idea is that you contribute in the same way into these little buckets. and they say that they're reviewing, for a new fiscal host soon.

So maybe wins, with the support inclusion in tech. maybe once Courtney and others at the WPCC have figured that out, maybe a conversation could be had about where to go, to make that happen. Okay. So over to Dave. Over to Jen. Let's. Talk about the initiative Ah, yes. And the sad demise of payment.

So

[00:37:21] Gen Herres: I know there are some private companies. I remember when I was speaking at work Camp Montclair, one of the speakers came from Canada and she had found that she was able to get funded by, I believe it was Yost. Oh yeah. Had, options for people who are underrepresented to get their costs basically covered.

So I think it's very nice. Yeah. Nice that some of these private companies are coming in and filling this niche, but it's also frustrating and annoying that they have to come in and fill this niche.

[00:38:00] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Here's a, here's an example. I think I've got the right one on the screen. Yes. I just quickly googled it and this was the one that seemed most sensible.

Yeah. the Yost diversity. Fund. so this is, they're

[00:38:13] Piccia Neri: funding me many. There is many times, and I'm very,

[00:38:16] Gen Herres: they, are very good at funding. And she was a university person, so she's used to incredibly painful amounts of paperwork. And she said that their paperwork was actually very simple and straightforward.

[00:38:30] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, nice. So we know that companies can step into the breach here, and I'm guessing typically they'll pick one or two or three or however many people and they'll just fund them with the amount that's necessary. So in this case, it sounds like it's a thousand euros. What I liked about this initiative though is that people like you and I could dip in and do like little micro payments, right?

we might have just $30 or $20 or whatever, and it could add into that little pot. And, over time that pot could reach the point at which it was fulfilled and then that thing could happen. And over at the WPCC, we've seen Alex Stein. Who has been, who has the pot that was funding full? A huge in

[00:39:12] Gen Herres: accessibility developer.

Yeah.

[00:39:14] Nathan Wrigley: Alex's top notch, but presumably not just funded by one company. Yost come along and give the thousand euros. This is probably multiple smaller donations, which eventually up to fill the pot that's going away. but hopefully, Courtney can chat to win at some point and and figure out between them where they might, go with the funding.

Dave, anything to add on that? Sorry. No, I think the others

[00:39:37] Dave Grey: have covered everything on this side. It's a good initiative to try and do and whether there's a way that some of the private companies could then fund a particular part on something like this to kinda come through or have a directory to say these companies like funding people.

So those that are in need or require assistance can get oh, here's a directory of people that can try and help you.

[00:39:58] Nathan Wrigley: It does seem like it, it really does seem like this platform is really. In the purview of what WordPress could do, right? It feels like there could be a WordPress solution, built.

I know things like give could probably be, recycled to do something like this, but, anyway, it seems that we're gonna have to find a new home for support inclusion in tech, but also the WP cc, but it sounds like that is being, looked at. Okay, there we go. If you were gonna go to WordCamp Asia this week, one of the, one of the things which came along and filled up the agenda, if like from a non WordPress user standpoint, I would imagine that most of the names on the speaker list were probably unfamiliar to you.

if you're a word presser, then you've probably heard of a lot of these people like I have. But they announced that Tim Ferris, was gonna be joining in the speaker lineup, and that kind of put. A really interesting spin on it to me. 'cause suddenly a WordPress event had this, is it me or is he just like a bit of a, bit of a superstar?

obviously he's not on the level of, Taylor Swift or anything like that, but, but pretty famous, right? And having, getting him, an event like a Word camp, suddenly I wonder if it like, suddenly some people who wouldn't have gone thought, that's interesting. I'll go along and see.

Anyway. No more. Tim has had to cancel, I dunno what the reasons were, but it sounded. and I can't remember the exact wording, but in the, in the email I got, today or last night, it, my, my inclination was that it was personal reasons. So maybe Ill health or, family reasons or something like that.

So I don't think this is a case of Tim pulling out because he just didn't wanna be involved anymore. It's more a case of having to pull out. But, last week on the show live, we raised this and, we, Michelle was here and we thought it was hysterical because Michelle said, nobody will show up to my, my talk now that I'm at the same time as Tim.

She found out that was happening. Anyway, Michelle, I think you're on a plane at the moment, so you won't be hearing this. no more. you're free to consume Tim Ferriss's audience lunch if you like, but, that's that propo of nothing. But if you were gonna go to Word Camp Asia and you were hoping to see Tim Ferriss, I'm

[00:42:22] Piccia Neri: sorry.

I have to say it, it was very funny because I think the way ha, I was watching, I think the way it happened is that. Michelle said something like along the lines of, really pity the person who's, having to talk at the same time as, Tim. And then you went to check and it was her.

[00:42:40] Nathan Wrigley: It was her, yeah.

And then she had a bit of self as well. So well done Michelle. Yeah, Maybe she's, maybe she's put some ointment in Tim Ferris's tea. now he's got a, now he's got a stomach Bob. here we go. A few comments that have come in. Courtney says OCF. So this is back to the story we had a moment ago, was great being tax deductible.

So I guess from the US side, there's some benefit there. Open Collective. The Lagon organization is not t tax deductible, but will continue on. Jess Frick, says, let this serve as a lesson. Do not cross Michelle. That's right. Even the mighty Tim Ferris with his four hour work week can, can be unhinged.

by Michelle. And the other thing to say is, Andrew Palmer says, we know that Canadians say a, lot. He says, Americans say like a lot. so we should have a word camp like, which would be held in the us I think that's great Word camp. Like any, commiserating com. That's not a word.

Any sort of commiserations about Tim Ferris or does it matter? Did, that even matter? Doesn't, no. Was that just a storm and a tea cop thing? Do you care that an international superstar is showing up to a WordPress event, or was that just a bit of window dressing? To see if you voodoo. Do, I just window dressing.

Dave says voodoo dolls, do work. Yeah. Michelle. We'll have to check her luggage when we get to Asia and make sure there's no voodoo dolls in there. I thought it was quite an interesting experiment, I have to say. and obviously now that experiment has collapsed it, we won't get to find out what that did, but I was genuinely interested to see what kind of an impact that would've had.

when you go to any kind of Word camp event where Matt Mullen wig shows up, you can more or less guarantee that the event venue will be full, that almost every seat will be taken. Matt comes on to speak and I was curious to see if. Tim would've had the same effect. And if he did have the same effect, did that sort of justify that experiment, if Putting a non-word pressy person, and I know he blogs, right? So there was totally a route in for him to be talking at a WordPress event, but I was interested to see if that had worked. Is that a recipe? for future events, invite people who are outside of the community in order to drum op support, drum op, I don't know, media interest, get the wider world talking about WordPress and the events and, anyway, there you go.

Just

[00:45:23] Piccia Neri: my sense, what I'm really curious about, I was a bit, I thought, that their choice was interesting 'cause I think the Tim Ferries was huge a few years ago, but I feel I don't know, but however, it, I thought it was interesting, but I am really curious to find out how this.

These invites work because do their invitees, are they, do they have to follow the same protocol as other WordPress speakers? That is to say you pay your own costs or are they Oh, invite. it's, a question to ask. Yeah. 'cause I know that these people can command huge speaking fees. So are they or are they not?

I really would love for it to be a transparent process because. I dunno. I have no idea. I have

[00:46:15] Gen Herres: no idea. as a Meetup organizer, I am explicitly forbidden from paying someone. Exactly. I'm also forbidden from paying them to travel. I'm forbidden from paying them anything, so I do everything on Zoom.

So there's no travel fees at

[00:46:31] Nathan Wrigley: all. It's great. It's an interesting conundrum, isn't it? Because somebody of the stature of Tim Ferriss, and I'm guessing that he's financially fairly secure, I'm guessing that Tim is not worrying about his bank balance particularly much. So if he's required to show up with no fee payable, that's not a big deal for him.

But I, it would be interesting to peel back the curtain there and see if there was. Some nominal fee that might have been paid or discussions about that. My, my guess from what Jen said, and from everything that I've come to understand about Word, it's against the rules. exactly. Is that it would be explicitly against the rules and we have no intuition that rule has been broken.

And I have the intuition that I think Matt Mullenweg was on his podcast a few weeks prior and I wonder if, they, yeah, Andrea said, I wonder if they have some sort of, if there's a friendship there or that's how the

[00:47:29] Gen Herres: invites happen. Probably,

[00:47:30] Piccia Neri: yeah. That's how the invite happened.

But I'm still, I'm, just curious 'cause I know it's not the only by invitation and I just would like to know how that works because we just had a conversation about. How to fund speakers and It's

[00:47:46] Gen Herres: relevant Now, there, there could be payment from a private entity to him to compensate him for attending the event.

That is of course, completely permitted, but the event itself being a word camp, can't pay can. Oh, I see. So if, for example, so someone else

[00:48:06] Nathan Wrigley: could paying, right? Yes. If I paid for pizza to go to work. Correct. Correct. In the same way Yost.

[00:48:12] Gen Herres: Exactly. Exactly. Exact same way that Yost is, able to fund all of these people and whatnot.

So it's entirely possible that there was compensation. It's just the compensation is against the rules of running the word camps.

[00:48:28] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Now that all of that's been said, it, I, am, I'm gonna say confident. I'm in fact very confident that the rules in that case would not have been broken, but it would be interesting to peel back the curtain and see if there was something going on.

in, in other ways. Probably never know. No, probably not, but I also probably not, I stick by the, interest in it because I do think that it would be fascinating one time to get somebody who is just, on that different level of. popularity, fame, whatever you wanna call it, who can, just tweet out a thing, one tweet, and suddenly everybody's drawn to the Word Camp Asia page or Word Camp Europe or what have you.

I think that would be an, a really fascinating experiment to Ron. And whether it's one with Tim in the US or, somewhere else, again, we'd have to see. But I, I would be fascinating. And you're right, Peter, Andrew Palmer. Sorry I can't put it on the screen 'cause it hasn't come through. but he said it would, he actually invited during the Tim Ferris podcast, so we know that's how the invite happened.

But yeah, that the rest of it is, is a bit of a mystery. Okay. Anyway, it's gone. and so he won't be there, so we'll all go and see Michelle or Wes or Perth, which are all happening at the same time, Okay. Alrighty. Anything else to add about that, or shall we move on? All right. In that case we'll move on.

Alrighty. Okay. Alright. So this is a piece that we featured a few weeks ago. so the, news itself is not that fresh. but I just wanted to mention the fact that I had done a podcast recently with, the person who wrote the article. It's Thomas j Raf. and he produced an article, oh, I dunno if there's a.

a date at the very top. Yeah. 3rd of January. It was publish in December. Oh, January. Ah, okay. Yeah. January here. Maybe written in December. I was looking at it in December. Yeah. Oh, okay. you helped him, put this together and we did a podcast, which honestly, it's so interesting listening to him talk this through because it's a, it's very meaty in terms of, technical details, this article. but the bottom line goes like this. And like I say, it's on the WP Tavern. It was the most recent episode, wp tavern.com/podcast. It's episode 1 1 0. and this just confounds my intuition when I heard this, and this is the, in the year of 2023.

The tech stack that he's got, which is in many cases, root access to the server. So it's not a plugin sitting on top of WordPress. It's like beneath WordPress. And he's getting the server logs, in real time. And he's got seven clusters and he says that in some times of the week, he's getting 20 million log logs written per second.

And at that point, my jaw hit the floor and I was thinking, what, even is that? Like, how is that even possible? It's all about attacking WordPress websites. And the bottom line is this. I thought it would've been plugins that was a problem. His data shows that it's stolen session cookies. So I don't know.

Somebody sends you a malicious email, you open it on your mac gets infected with something. And one of the byproducts of that infection is that the, browser is giving up its session cookies, and if the browser gives up your WordPress session cookie, then whoever gets that cookie is you, no ifs, no bots, two factor authentication, will not do anything to help.

Nothing will help. They can be you for a period of time. and he find the data that 60% of the attacks in 2023 that he was observing. Were these attacks and the implication is pretty terrifying actually. Yes.

[00:52:29] Gen Herres: the majority of the majority of hacks going on is your device is being compromised.

Yeah. Typically by, one example that he had was someone had received an email and it had a PDF attachment, and the email was about the latest Facebook class action lawsuit. So there was an actual real Facebook class action lawsuit settlement at the same time as this email. It's clever. So if you opened that PDF, just the action of opening the PDF ran the embedded script.

If you just deleted the email and did not open the PDF, you were okay. But if you opened the PDF, it installed the script onto your computer. I. And then your computer was compromised and literally every single website you logged in, your WordPress site, your bank website, all of these different websites, as long as your session cookie was valid with the server, then you, they were able to be logged in.

So if you logged into your bank, were there for only one minute and immediately logged out, there's a very good chance that they didn't get the opportunity to use that cookie. But you have to actually click the log out button. And it's also really important that when people are using websites with sensitive data, like their bank, actually click the logout closing.

Your browser does nothing. Clearing your browser's, cookies does nothing. You have to click log out to terminate the session cookie on their server.

[00:54:06] Nathan Wrigley: It's interesting. so typically in the case of WordPress, the session cookie. So if you log in, let's say you're an admin, you are gonna be logged in for a period of 48 hours, but if you click that remember Me button, you're gonna be logged in for a period of 14 days.

And so if they catch, if you click the log in, remember me and they infect your computer on the day that you did that a few hours, they got 14 days to wreak havoc. As you, my bank, I dunno what it's like in the us but banks are getting seriously aggressive. At least in my experience, at logging me out after a teeny tiny period of inactivity.

So I was on my online bank this morning, and I went to do something else, but that was a matter of minutes. And I came back, tried to interact with my bank again. it had gone, that session had gone. So honestly it must have been under 120 seconds. So I think maybe the banks are onto this, but your WordPress website could be as valuable to you as your bank account, right?

You've got giant

[00:55:08] Gen Herres: WooCommerce store, especially e-Commerce website. Yeah. some of these e-commerce websites are processing millions of dollars

[00:55:16] Nathan Wrigley: and they are totally, you. Yeah. Indistinguishable from you. Anyway, the point of this was go and listen to the podcast. In fact, they can even kick you

[00:55:25] Gen Herres: out

of

[00:55:25] Nathan Wrigley: the site.

Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really interesting. They keeps your session cookie, the log files that kind of prove it as well. So for example, they, all of a sudden there's this, you, there's this Chrome version five, which was released like 15 years ago, or I dunno, 10 years ago or something like that.

goes to a URL that it should not have been able to access correctly. It should have been redirected to a login page, but it didn't, it went to that page from nowhere and was active. So they know, like Thomas knows that's malicious. the log doesn't look malicious unless you know what's going on.

But we go back in time and we see that IP address and that person never ever, went to a login page at any point. So we know, and it's really interesting. He explains it far better than I do. and we talk about cake quite a bit. We describe things as cake. So if you like cake in security.

Bob's your uncle. anybody want to talk about that day? Teacher? Yes. Go for it.

[00:56:25] Dave Grey: Yeah. I read this the other day and thought for something such a massive proportion, like 60% on there, it'll probably take someone in core a matter of a couple of days just to say, have a tick box on by default, match your session cookie to your IP address, and that would

[00:56:40] Nathan Wrigley: negate that.

No, that

[00:56:42] Gen Herres: doesn't work for a lot of people. If people are on VPN systems, then they can end up with a recycled IP address periodically. If someone is traveling and they have their mobile phone, they can be moving between towers and changing o over their IP addresses,

[00:57:00] Nathan Wrigley: No, but wouldn't that, work from the point of view of like your IP would change more so you would have to repeatedly log in, which would still say in it would be a nightmare.

Yeah, it would be a nightmare, but it would

[00:57:13] Gen Herres: work. I've seen, no, I've seen Cal because masking an IP address is incredibly easy.

[00:57:21] Nathan Wrigley: Interesting. Okay. Because then that would also mean that people

[00:57:24] Gen Herres: are ing

[00:57:25] Nathan Wrigley: IP address is very easy. Yeah. But I, I guess I, I guess it is interesting 'cause you're, adding a layer of complexity.

So there'd be two things to know at that point though, wouldn't they? you'd, have to know the IP address and have the session cookie and typically I, maybe they can get, I don't know. Anyway, sorry Dave. Carry on. Keep going. That was interesting. No,

[00:57:44] Dave Grey: I was just thinking. Yeah. 'cause if you did have that bit on there and you weren't traveling and you were always at home and you just wanted that extra bit, then Yeah.

Without just like an education

[00:57:53] Nathan Wrigley: piece to say, if you

[00:57:55] Gen Herres: want to use something like CloudFlare, if, you're always at your own IP address, you can restrict access to areas like all of WP admin to just specific IP addresses.

[00:58:09] Dave Grey: Yeah. 'cause some of these bits would then be relying on people being a bit more techie than the, oh, I've just, in doing a self installed a WordPress on that bit, don't know these things.

Try and add those few extra hoops on that slide. Just can like default on there where there's a few simple bits we could try and put in place or just educate people

[00:58:27] Nathan Wrigley: a bit more. Yeah.

[00:58:27] Gen Herres: Yeah. There had been a thread in Calvin Alkin who's a security reacher researcher from, originally from Germany, sco, I think he's now in Spain.

And yeah, snicko and no, he had gotten into a whole thing on how that would actually create problems for more users and wouldn't really do a lot to enhance security because. You can get around it.

[00:58:54] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Interesting. in the podcast, Thomas said one of the features that he liked about solid wp, which have a security plugin, I guess it's solid security.

he specifically called out the fact that binding the IP address to the session is one of the things that they do, which he liked. But I can't get into the technical detail 'cause frankly, I'm not that clever. but regardless of what the solution here is, if you're in WordPress and there's any chance that, WordPress is valuable to you, then the, simple thing to do is just log out, just click.

The logout button that will then, hobble destroy, if you like, the session cookie. And then even if it's stolen, it's meaningless. Yeah. So that hygiene element, which, Dave, I guess is alluding to there, learning a bit more and understanding a bit more about what you're doing, because honestly, with the best will in the world, I, log out from almost nothing that I wish to stay logged into.

I've got my Gmail open, I'm logging into that when it forces me to log into it. the same would be true of a whole bunch of things, and it's purely convenience. but maybe there's something to be said. I'm the same about this. yeah. but it was frightening to me that the whole two fa thing, which in my head was my final layer of security.

It's fascinating that this completely obliterates all of that. yeah. anyway, go and listen to it. Thomas Raffe talking about it. James Lau in the comments. Thank you. Can't raise it on the screen. I'm sorry I can't see them all. but I can read it on YouTube. It says I need to read and understand this cookie thing.

Still clearing backlogs of articles and podcasts. Yeah, it's about 40 minutes-ish long, 45 minutes like that. And he, sums it up really nicely. So go and check it out. and then Max says, couldn't they just, so this is to Dave's point, I think, couldn't they just create an IP address that goes along with your login and if the IP addresses changes, you automatically get logged out and have to re-log in?

Yeah, that was what I was alluding to, but yeah, I guess Jen's right, if you're in a, I know you're in a train or something, you're gonna be, you're gonna be getting logged out. Like literally you log in and then as soon as you've logged in, you'll get logged out again. couldn't we just use, Andrew Palmer, I should say, says, couldn't we just use interactive logout.

Inactive. Which plug? Sorry. Apologies. What did I say? Interactive? yeah, she's still in there doing stuff. Yeah. Come out that's interactive logout. You have to play a little game or something. couldn't we just use Inactive Logout, which is a plugin in the repository? that's Andrew Palmer suggestion.

I don't know that plugin. So I does the,

[01:01:46] Gen Herres: it depends on whether the inactive, logout is something that lives on the server and automatically logs you out via PHP processes that are running, or if it tries to live in the JavaScript layer in your browser, which requires your browser to actually be open and running.

[01:01:59] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Okay, so there's your answer, Andrew. from James. I don't

[01:02:04] Gen Herres: know that specific plugin and what it uses. Yeah. but you can always get into a discussion with Calvin.

[01:02:10] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Calvin at Sunco, SNI double CO, you can find him there. He's on the Twitter. I can't remember what his Twitter handle is, but he's definitely there.

And, we have a comment, which I can actually show this time. And it says hello to Mark West Guard. Mark's in, mark's in Taiwan, I'm guessing by now. Mark, what temperature is it? I'm gonna pack tonight and I want to know what to pack. Is it warm or is it cold? Please let me know. Answers on a postcard.

[01:02:37] Gen Herres: There's the internet. You can look it up.

[01:02:39] Nathan Wrigley: I don't believe anything on the internet. Jen, I'll do it for you. Let's move on. I'm not gonna do that one 'cause we're running out of time. I thought this was quite an interesting article. hat tip to Toby CRE Crimes. Cris, sorry, I don't know how to pronounce your surname.

I just thought this was a fascinating article. It was on the tavern. It's called You Don't Need To Know Code to Build a Successful WP Business. And it's not like any other article I've ever seen. It's like interviews, little mini micro interviews with eight or nine people in the WordPress space who have had, air quotes.

I'm making air quotes success in the WordPress space without learning to code. Now I can code a bit, but anything that I code is likely to be horribly dangerous or basically not work. But I've managed to make a living out of WordPress in that way. Jen and Peach, accessibility and UI and ux.

Dave, let's begin with You you are more code than you've got plugins and all that kind of stuff, but are you more agency or are you more code or. I was just gonna point out the

[01:03:52] Dave Grey: one key word in the title that's being missed out is the WordPress plugin business rather than business January around WordPress.

but yes, I think from my side, having taken on some plugins or recently on there, that's been a good foundation of what, I don't know, everything on these bits, you can then use that as a template to figure out what's been done on that side through. But then other people from seen on the top there, someone else has built something for them, they take kind of product ownership off that.

But then outsource who does the actual sort of development work on that side, which is quite a good sort of mix on there of someone can get the ideas and someone else can keep up to date on the tech stacks go through. So yeah, if you've got enough money to do those sort of things, then that's definitely a good valid route to try and go down.

[01:04:35] Nathan Wrigley: I find that really fascinating. I'm not confident enough to do that kind of thing. just in the position I'm in, I've got too many other, like plates that I'm trying to spin at the same time. But the idea that you can step into the marketplace, buy a plugin, and I've seen that this week, isn't it?

Barn two, sold, several, like 14 or nine or anyway, fairly some number, jaw dropping number that they're able to shed and still have a business and they've been bought by somebody else. And obviously that person has an intuition that either they're gonna market them or they're gonna, carry on developing them.

Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. Peach, sorry I interrupted.

[01:05:12] Piccia Neri: No, I was gonna say something, but I dunno if actually is relevant with what Dave's, Punta, point that you made that, last year at Work Camp Asia, Ali Niman gave a talk on how to make a living outta WordPress without knowing any code.

But yes, this article is more on the WP. Plug on plugins, the WebPress plugins business kind of side, but yeah, interest. Fascinating because you are just, it makes me think is the world is full of possibilities.

[01:05:42] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. And you, but is you, would it be fair to say peach? Is your audience your sort of ui, ux and increasingly accessibility space?

Are you, going straight at the WordPress space in order to sell that content or do you pitch it in other channels that I'm unfamiliar with?

[01:06:02] Piccia Neri: all, I've always been quite, not careful, but I've always like really very much been tool agnostic. When I teach design, I don't use any tools at all. So, no, I don't, I just operate in the WordPress space a lot, but I don't, you could take WordPress entirely outta the equation and.

It would be the same,

[01:06:25] Nathan Wrigley: but how did it end up being WordPress? Is it be, is that a function of the events being, easy to access and the community being nice? 'cause you could have showed up to all manner of different things, and yet we see you on WordPress stuff all the time.

[01:06:39] Piccia Neri: It's entirely done.

Maybe. And Post Smarts Fault,

[01:06:45] Nathan Wrigley: because

[01:06:47] Piccia Neri: I started going, to the, London meetups and, they sucked me in. Whether I liked it or not, basically. No, it was definitely the community. And also because I saw a need, because when I started talking at work camp WordPress events, there was hardly anyone.

There was very few people that were talking about design. And it still is, it's improved a little bit, but it still is not the. I don't think that it's improved hugely. Now, companies and plugins and agencies have different attitudes towards design for sure. But I saw the need to actually fill, fill that gap.

So that's how I did it. And yes, it is easy access and it's very nice. And then you start making friends with everyone and Yeah. And the therefore it's here we are,

[01:07:42] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. speaking of Dan Mabe and Paul Smart, amazing friends, they, they revitalize, they brought back to, did you go, they brought back the word No, because I

[01:07:52] Piccia Neri: arrived on, I was, two days late.

Oh, okay.

[01:07:56] Nathan Wrigley: Unfortunately. they brought back, the WordPress London Meetup and it's gonna be held, each and every month. it's the, ah. I wanna say third Thursday or the fourth, third Thursday of the month or something. Anyway, I can't remember, but they did one, maybe it's the last Thursday of the month, maybe it's that, they did one on the 29th of February.

And by all accounts there was, there was a big audience day. they managed to get a lot of people into the room, I think on the higher side of what they were hoping for. So it's back if you want to go and explore that in the uk. WP LDN UK is the URL wp, LDN UK each and every month. gathered in London with some of your WordPress friends.

It's being held, I believe, at the Klaviyo offices. I don't actually know where that is, but the Klaviyo offices is where it's taking place. So, there you go, peach. Thank you for reminding me about that. Jen, anything to add to that piece before we move on? Not the WordPress London bit, the bit before.

Nothing to add

[01:09:03] Gen Herres: to the word WordPress. London. Yes, sorry. as far as WordPress plugin businesses, at the end of the day, it's a business. The things needed to run a business involve, business sense, BA budgets, and most important networking. Networking and sales and marketing, and who to get involved with and how to get involved with them and all of that.

Actually writing the code is only a small portion of running the business.

[01:09:36] Nathan Wrigley: true. So anyway, that was a nice article. Certainly worth having a look. And it was just an interesting take on, on a WordPress have an article, which I haven't seen before, which I thought was quite nice.

29th of February, that one came out. couple of things I just want to mention. I exchanged emails periodically with a lovely chap called Lawrence Lari, and he's organized a, new, WordPress biz Dev community. It's right at the beginning, so I'm not entirely sure where this is gonna go, but he is trying to foster a community, grow a community in the WordPress space, where he is connecting nice, WordPress professionals.

the URL Dead easy to remember. It's WP Bizz with a ZZ, dev, WP Biz Dev. And you go and you can join the community. It's literally days old. so if you fancy exploring that, you're fed up with Facebook groups and you wanna mix with a bunch of like-minded WordPresses. Go and check it out.

So I won't ask for any comments on that 'cause I would very much doubt there's anything to say. I just wanna mention a couple of things which I've seen come out this week. I can't speak to their utility or quality or any of that 'cause I literally just saw that they existed. First one is this, it's called Block Studio.

Block Studio Dev. They claim that they're a framework for building WordPress blocks. So that might be interesting to you. It looks like there's a focus on the code from the website itself, so it's not a, what is what you get thing and the other one, like a more hate. I'm imagining Jen's gonna go hate 'em, but I don't know.

this is a new plugin called Announcer where they enable you to put, like these bars at the top of the page and things like that. And I can almost see, feel the intake of Jen's breath. Now she's shaking her head, so we'll quickly move on. Anyway, it exists, it's called close, Yeah. Yeah. Quick close. Okay, move on. All right. There it is. You can see it. It's R Cash. web. I thought that was interesting. And then we mentioned earlier that, solid WP had this, setting in their security platform, which enabled you to bind the IP address to the login cookies session, if you like.

And, they did a bit of a, breakdown a video, so I can't obviously show it to you. but they did a video all about the, latest bricks theme. Vulnerability Bricks is a page builder. So when it says theme, you might be imagining that it's, do your headers and your footers and your colors.

It's not, it enabled you to do think elemental, essentially. All of that kind of stuff. and they had a really severe, problem recently. Yes. It got a 10. On the CVSS, which an A 10 is like, the column it catastrophic, huge

[01:12:26] Gen Herres: catastrophic. It's it's absolutely top everything.

Absolutely. It basically means that all the person has to do is visit your website and put some specific stuff in with their visit request and they can hack

[01:12:40] Nathan Wrigley: you. Yeah. that's it. Yeah. So basically zero day, easy to exploit, no technical skill required. Yes. All of that kind of stuff. your literal donkey could do it if you just gave him the speaking

[01:12:56] Gen Herres: of, Tom, he actually found that there was a number of hacks going on, starting, I believe around February 7th, which was before the patch was announced, before the patch was released, before any of that stuff.

So you actually need to go back if you're trying to restore a backup. From before a site was hacked, you have to definitely go back to the very beginning of February to restore. Yeah. And then you have to load in the brand new updated version of bricks before you actually make the site live again,

[01:13:31] Nathan Wrigley: so it doesn't get hacked.

Okay. So there's a, time, there's a timestamp here. if you were before that, did, I think you said February the sixth or something like that? Yeah. if you've got a backup, if you are hacked, if you have reason to believe which many

[01:13:45] Gen Herres: people are and they don't know which,

[01:13:48] Nathan Wrigley: Tom, the backup may not satisfy.

[01:13:51] Gen Herres: yeah. so Tom's product, we, watch your website, they will scan your website for free. So they're not gonna clean it for free, but they will scan it for free and their cleaning fees are very reasonable.

[01:14:03] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. they go and they've been doing tons of it. I'll bet. stuff like this must be, man from heaven in a certain respect.

The, it has been patched. and they go to say in the article that this isn't flame wall. They're not trying to say never use the bricks builder again. 'cause they bullet point here, they say that the Brix team once, once it was found out, the Brix team fixed the issue within hours. But Jen's point still stands, backups may not get you outta jail.

correct. If you're lucky, then it will, but there's a chance that your backup will also carry the infection.

[01:14:38] Gen Herres: Yeah. Calvin, who was the security researcher who found it, said that the Brix team was extremely responsive and easy to work

[01:14:46] Nathan Wrigley: with. We like to hear that. ah, Andrew Palmer says he went to W-P-L-D-N.

Oh, actually that's one that I can put on the screen. There you go. There's Andrew's lovely face. he went to WLDN. What did you just say? What did you

[01:15:02] Piccia Neri: say first? I just said, what a shame. Oh. So it would've been really nice. I, but I got in on Saturday and he was on, they should have waited for me, done it next week.

[01:15:12] Nathan Wrigley: And he says he sold all of his plugins to Dave. Dave this Dave. Dave. Who? Dave here. Dave Grave right there, Dave. Oh, really? Worth to do. Yeah. What the heck? I love this show. Sometimes there's a bit of serendipity where stuff like that happens. So Andrew Palmer in the comments sold all of his plugin Stew Dave Gray in the show.

That's great. You heard it here first, yeah. Oh, there you go. That's absolutely

[01:15:39] Piccia Neri: lovely. it's because I saw that Andrew had sold his plugins, but I didn't know who to. So you are a proper plugin entrepreneur.

[01:15:48] Nathan Wrigley: Yes, absolutely. So sorry Dave, please go. Yeah,

[01:15:51] Dave Grey: so most of 'em have got quite a long sort of legacy dating back before Divvy did quite a few of these things back like 20 18, 20 19.

But there's still some of them with some functionality that still were not in Dvy itself, which kind of discover and bring forward. And there's also a few other plugins from that bit that me to do my own sort of websites as a service on that side would be useful on there to try and pick them through.

because Andrew was kind, focused on sort and his other agency work kind, just didn't want to abandon them because there's still quite a few people using them. So I thought they asked, I don't, I took over divvy form DB back in January, so I thought, wow,

[01:16:27] Nathan Wrigley: infra a penny. Let's take the lot. And yeah,

[01:16:31] Dave Grey: so basically last most of last month was making up the new product pages and doing a few minor bug fixes on those to.

Get 'em up to speed. yeah, between that and heads

[01:16:40] Nathan Wrigley: up, I'm gonna be busy for about years. You're, that's right. I appreciate your time all the more. Now, isn't this community amazing? Honestly, like it's WordPress for goodness sake. How is that any business in creating more news than you can discover in a week and yet, every single week, I'm confounded by the amount that I have to leave on the table every week.

I, I probably read hundreds, not necessarily read them all, but I go through hundreds of articles, most of which I can't use because there's just not enough time. It's just WordPress, it's just a CMS and there's so much to talk about. And there's a perfect example. I missed the Dave Buys Andrew Palmer collection of plugins.

Fabulous. And

[01:17:21] Dave Grey: it all started a long time back from when Andrew just put a picture up on meeting one of his other sort of colleagues at Cafe Place in Maidenhead. And I said, oh, you actually there oh no, he lives over that side. Oh I live over this side. It's basically 40 minutes drive away.

So met up twice in the middle and talked stuff over. So that's why I keep joking. You got the word count meetup. You have like word cafe for a smaller, a few person meetups on that side to go

[01:17:45] Nathan Wrigley: through. lovely. That's fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. Lovely stuff. Okay. We've got about nine minutes left, so I'll try to get through what I've got to do here quickly.

This last one, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be very, mindful here because caveat mTOR, no, not caveat to full disclosure. when I do the, WP Tavern podcast, I, do that and I get paid by Audrey Capital. and so I have to, get that out there. But Jen, put this onto my horizon. Actually, I think this was inevitable.

This was gonna come in my direction, whether Jen put it there or not. This seems like the story that maybe we'll hear about for the days, weeks, and months to come. it's surfaced first on a website called 4 0 4 Media. 4 0 4 media.co, and it's titled A WordPress Fire Hose Allows AI companies to buy access to mil to a million posts a day.

I had a chance to read it. I'm gonna paraphrase it as best as I know, wordpress.com. So let's get that out there. wordpress.com, but also I think potentially wordpress.org websites with Jetpack enabled plus Tumblr, posts. There's the accusation in this post is that there, the, data from those posts, and I dunno what kind of data that is, whether that is simply the front end, what the front end of the website sees.

So the text that you write, the images that you create and so on, is or was being given to AI companies. I dunno if the word there should be sold to AI companies or provided to AI companies, but obviously Jen. What's your feeling? Sure. So

[01:19:33] Gen Herres: mostly this is something that's been ongoing. So originally they were making this data available via an API to be consumed basically for free.

And they've been doing, wordpress.com has been doing that apparently for a little while now. Now they have turned that around and monetized it. many sites like Reddit and Twitter have also been making this kind of data easily consumable by an API. And several people have asked, what's the difference between my blog is published on the internet and this whole fire hose thing.

it's basically if someone were to. send you tractor trailer's worth of berries versus all packaged up and ready to go, versus you having to go out into the fields and pick all the berries yourself. So yes, the data's publicly available. The berries are out in the field, but they're packaging it up and delivering it directly to you with the big tractor trailers, basically.

[01:20:34] Nathan Wrigley: So they're making it easy to consume for the ai. Extremely

[01:20:38] Gen Herres: easy to consume. Yes. And so now that data is actually being sold to companies like Midjourney and Open AI to ingest directly into their algorithms to use in their large language models. And the question is, this is apparently also for paid wordpress.com, possibly paid Jet pack users.

Also, what happens when, things were marked as private? What happens when things were marked as password protected? What about password protected websites that data's available to these APIs? What if you have things like no index in your robots? there's a good chance that wouldn't make it through.

what about people who are literally unable to opt out, such as people who created a WordPress blog in the past and they died? the WordPress blog still exists, but there's no way they could ever opt out. They're dead. there's a lot of privacy concerns and the fact that you have to go chase down the opt-out clause, and it does appear that some data, like comments may be going in and that.

Definitely puts you in some questionable GDPR territory. I'm not A-G-D-P-R expert by any means, but I know that on a lot of forms you're required to have an opt-in checkbox by GDPR when doing form submissions. So,

[01:22:17] Nathan Wrigley: is the story here, like my expectation with, let's say I've got a website on Squarespace, or I'm using Facebook, or I'm using Twitter or WordPress do com or whatever, my expectation in the year 2024 is that the AI companies want that.

That they want everything from all the places. Yes. And they, as much as they get, they wanna consume it all. So that's a given, but I, guess is the question here, the op, is it the opt-out, opt-in bit, like this would, this all have been, that's part of it, your opinion? If you'd have had the option right at the start to say, okay, I'm opted out by default.

But I wish to opt in or,

[01:22:57] Gen Herres: whatever, that, that would definitely make it much more palatable, especially since, this data's being ingested by all of these algorithms and whatnot, and you may not really want your data to be ingested by all of these algorithms, but mostly it's just that most people aren't aware that buried in the terms of service and the terms of service that changed over the years that this is even happening to their data.

[01:23:24] Nathan Wrigley: Nathan, a few interesting comments. Nathan. Nathan about this. Nathan, yeah. I'm just gonna raise a couple of comments, Peter, quickly. First of all, I can't see Andrew's one on this platform, so I'm just gonna say it. Andrew said there, there is an opt out. Yeah, I think that's the case, isn't it?

Yeah. Is it opt out? Is it checked? Okay. And then another one, which I can actually put on the platform is bigot. S Hello Bigot. Exactly. she says, it should be opt, it should always be Optin. By default. I wonder if, you meant that

[01:23:53] Piccia Neri: by view default, she opt out. Opt out. You can't opt out, you, it's, it has to be opt in, not opt out.

So does

[01:24:00] Nathan Wrigley: she. Oh, I see. So what she's, what big it, I think what big it's saying there is you need, you have to intentionally opt in to, okay, great. That's what I would've expected, that to say. And then, but Jess's comments is, Jess is joining us. Thank you Jess. She says

[01:24:16] Gen Herres: private. Yeah, there's a lot of lack of information about this unanswered questions from the

[01:24:20] Nathan Wrigley: media.

Let's clear this up because this is important ob. Jess, is often on this show. she works with Pressable. Pressable is a host that I is our host

[01:24:31] Piccia Neri: Nathan, yep. Yeah, exactly. For clients as well.

[01:24:36] Nathan Wrigley: Jet Pack, is, on a website that I use and so Jess says privately hosted jet pack enable sites are not, and she's capitalized, not included.

There is a lot, is of misinformation being shared. and that is one of those pieces. okay. Let's take that. Thanks Jess. Let's take that and pause that. If you have a privately hosted jet pack enabled site, and I guess I'm guessing your meaning, whether it's on Pressable or just anywhere, that it is not included.

And we've gotta be mindful of, misinformation. What we need with this story is a, source of truth, don't we? We need one article where we can go to where it's all listed out in a detail, by somebody that we can, it categorically say, okay, that's straight from the horse's mouth. Because as, is always the case when social media gets involved, and I might add platforms like I'm producing, here we are throwing our opinions about, it does muddy the water a little bit.

Dave, I'm conscious that you've not said anything about this. Do you wanna, I'm just thinking

[01:25:44] Dave Grey: from while what they're doing, technically not right. I'm just always thinking from things from the technical side. If you're gonna have a companies like this going around, scraping all your sites and basically taking it all for free, if you provide it through an API,

[01:25:58] Nathan Wrigley: they won't be hitting your public web servers

[01:25:59] Dave Grey: using resources on there.

And more importantly, they're making some money from it where they could just be taking it. For free regardless. So while how they've done it isn't right on there from a purely technical side of things, they're trying to make the best of a bad situation.

[01:26:16] Nathan Wrigley: Might be overly simplified on

[01:26:17] Dave Grey: there, but yeah, just thinking if they're crawling the sites to get this light, regardless if you provide 'em a door to that a bit, you can control and throttle that a bit and

[01:26:26] Nathan Wrigley: make some money from it at the same time.

Okay. I do apologize about the overrunning nature of this podcast. We'll do one more. Are you all right for a couple more minutes? Yep. Jen feature. Okay. So anyway, that one came up on the 4 0 4 website. I'll just pop it on the screen again. this feels like a story which is not gonna go away particularly quickly.

and it would be nice to get the authoritative version of that. Jess has come back and said, you are right Nathan. I. I I very occasionally happens just in general, yeah. it's, not all that often, but thank you Jess. So let's hope that this story solidifies itself and we can all come to a, a solution that we're entirely happy with.

'cause it does feel like tempers are. starting toray

[01:27:13] Gen Herres: about this. we're a automatic needs to put out a press release detailing exactly what they have and haven't made available. Okay. And to whom? And really answering people's questions that's really what needs to happen is that automatic needs to issue a press release and really clarify exactly what is being sold,

[01:27:32] Nathan Wrigley: What did happen, what is happening, and who is it happening to, that kind of thing so that we can, and also surfacing. if you're not sure where that Opt-in box is surfacing that. So it's really Nice and straightforward to find. okay, so this will be the last piece. I do apologize. we had a variety of other different bits and pieces, but I'll just mention this one.

It was mentioned right at the top of the show. I think Max mentioned it. not a user of this, so I don't really know a lot about the plugin itself, but there's been development, on a plugin called Quickly. It was a, a block tool which came along with a suite of blocks. I think they had some quite clever stuff in there, like Grid And things like that. they have decided to, out of the blue. Discontinue the development of quickly. So if you are a user of quickly, it does seem like development is stopping as of this moment. There's gonna be no more developments, and I'll just read it quickly. It is with a heavy heart that we have made the decision to discontinue the development of the quickly plugin.

We understand that this news may come as a disappointment. We want to assure you that our team is committed to assisting you during this transition period. And then goes on to say the usual stuff. I have caught sight of a email which portrayed a very, much more angst ridden version of this story.

And it would appear that the, founder of the plugin has been the recipient of behavior online that caused them to reconsider whether they wanted to carry this, on. And obviously, I don't know the ins and outs of that, but if that's the case, that's sad. For one thing, nobody wants to be beaten out of the community.

And it would be a shame if, if that was in fact the case. But, if the, if it's a popular thing, which it sounds like it might have been, there's gonna be a lot of people suddenly scratching their heads. Maybe there's a bunch of people whose businesses rely on this, for the last year you've been shipping quickly based websites and suddenly you've gotta find something else to do.

Jen, I think you threw this in my direction, right?

[01:29:34] Gen Herres: Yes. It's been blowing up the socials all weekend. Okay. so I don't know the developer, I did not personally use this particular plugin, so I can't really speak to what was going on under the hood or in the background. I definitely know that, running a business is hard and it's, it can have a lot of challenges and sometimes you just.

You hit the point that the particular aggregate aggravation or frustration compared to the net revenue that's coming in just no longer makes sense because of situations in your business life or your personal life. So I'm not trying to put words into Lewis's mouth, but I'm just trying to say, there, there could be things that we don't know about that are happening.

There could have been things shared privately that we don't know about that happened. I know that the community is very upset because there were quite a few people who were using this, and some of them are currently really hoping that another company perhaps purchases quickly to at least keep it stable and supported and secure.

[01:30:48] Nathan Wrigley: Oh boy. Yeah. Peter, were you gonna say something?

[01:30:54] Piccia Neri: Yeah, I saw, I, am sympathizing with both. I understand that this. Can happen. But also there was someone, I saw someone tweet, actually I think it was a screenshot from Facebook 'cause someone saying, all of my client's websites use quickly.

Yeah. What am I gonna do? and I'm sympathizing a lot because I said that, I've had to scramble together a Thrive Cart page because I'm having gremlins in my website. And the re the probable reason why I am having them is that I'm using a minor, very small plugin that helps me use CSS grid with Beaver Builder.

And I've run so many tests, I'm 99% sure that's the issue. My entire site relies on that plugin and I don't think it's, and now I'm like, okay, I'm actually having to build my course sales page on a subdomain and because I can't rebuild the entire site now, and that's a tiny plugin that because now be Builder has a.

I I dunno, it's not proven a hundred percent yet, but it's likely that's what's happening. So I am, I feel torn as well, because I'm thinking a thousand percent support small plugins and small, businesses. And I really believe in that they're very important for the whole ecosystem.

But when this happens to you, that a minor plugin that you rely on dies a death because the market evolves and they can't keep up.

[01:32:31] Gen Herres: Yeah. what do I do next? since the announcement is still very fresh, and they're saying that they will support it through the end of the year. Okay, so through December.

there is definitely a chance that they may be selling this to someone else, and hopefully that other person would at least maintain it in terms of security, bug patches, that kind of thing. Dave, you want another plugin?

[01:32:59] Nathan Wrigley: I'm busy enough already think. Yeah, it's an instant purchase. Pete says, Pete Ingersol says.

the email that I alluded to, indicates negativity by unidentified WordPress influencers in, in quotes, who don't like Gutenberg. We need to be careful that as that is a vague and surprising accusation. Yeah. The, public version is very different from the email that I read where one was full of angst and the other one was very businesslike and professional, okay.

And, 1,503 websites have quickly installed as of

[01:33:35] Gen Herres: today, so that's as of built with, which Yeah. Can have a little margin of error, so

[01:33:38] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. yes, indeed. anyway, it's a lot. it's enough. there's people gonna be worried

[01:33:45] Gen Herres: about that. There's enough that it, there are some agencies who, had picked one builder and Yeah.

When, just like the bricks vulnerability, when that came out, there, there were people going, oh my God, I have 50 hacked websites.

[01:34:01] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah, I know. And can you imagine, so the scenario that I'm in, if 50 of my websites go down now I'm supposed to be going to. Word count Asia on a plane in the morning, suddenly I'm not.

it's the kind of life changing moment, isn't it? And here we are. This is why we in, this is one of the reasons we love WordPress. 'cause you can get plugins and it's one of the reasons we hate WordPress. 'cause you can get plugins and they can do this to you from time to time. Anyway, I've overused much of your time.

It's now eight minutes past what we should have done. I really appreciate you making any comments. Thank you again. Sorry about the gremlin. Sorry about the fact that some of the comments come in and we can show 'em on the screen, but some of them can't. But I think we managed to put a fair amount of all of that up.

You got really appreciate it. Thank you to Jen for joining us. Thank you to Dave for joining us. and thank you where, to Peacher for joining us. you've all been on the show before, so you know, it's the slightly humiliating hand wave thing that we've gotta do. Now. Would you all just mind showing me your hand?

Yeah. Look, Peacher, you're out there. No, in. Yes. Very good. Thank you so much. If you are, it's okay. You're done. Yeah. if you are in WordCamp Asia, if you're in Taipei next week, please do come and say hi. The easiest way to reach out to me is on probably on Twitter, at WP Builds. that's probably the easiest thing to do.

I'd love to meet as many as you of you as I can. Maybe we'll go and get some hotpot, which apparently is really nice and tasty. But that's it for this week. Thank you for joining us. We'll be back a week after next, so take care, stay safe and, enjoy the rest of your week. Bye-Bye. Thank you. Thank you. You are welcome.

You're welcome. Bye.