[00:00:20] Nathan Wrigley: Hello there and Happy New Year. Happy 2026.
Welcome to the WP Builds podcast. You have reached episode number 451 entitled, the realities of teaching WordPress, Dave Foy's shift to live cohort learning. It was published on Thursday, the eighth of Jan, 2026. My name's Nathan Wrigley and before I joined Dave Foy, just a few bits of housekeeping.
I'm going to reiterate my message from the very beginning, which is to say Happy New Year. I hope that if you had some time off, you enjoyed it, and you are approaching the year 2026 revitalized. If you are and you're fully emerged in the WordPress space. This hopefully will be a bumper year for WP Builds. We're gonna be producing lots of content, lots of interviews, attending lots of live events and things like that, and getting content to you on a regular basis.
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Okay, what have we got for you today? Well, I recorded an episode a few weeks ago with Dave Foy. Dave, if you don't know him, is an educator in the WordPress space. He's done lots of content in the past around Elementor. He's done lots of content around Bricks. He's also done content about various other things.
He has a background in teaching small children in the UK, and he is really on a bit of a hunt to see if he can figure out the best way to teach online. He's done these leviathan, gigantic courses in the past, but more recently he's been questioning and trying to figure out what is the best way to teach online.
And so that's what this podcast is all about. So if you are consuming educational content in the WordPress space, or you're thinking about making educational content, then this is really interesting. Because Dave has kind of upended his entire process, so he's no more gonna be doing these monolithic courses, and instead having something much more interactive, a particular cohort that he's gonna work through, weekly sessions, things like that.
So we get into all of that. What his strategy is. How he's worked in the past, the ways that he's exploring the alternative models for the future, and it's a really interesting chat. I hope that you enjoy it.
I am joined on the podcast by Sir Dave Foy. Hello Dave.
[00:03:59] Dave Foy: All right, Nathan.
[00:04:01] Nathan Wrigley: He's not actually a sir. He might be a sir. I don't know. Are you a sir? I doubt it.
[00:04:06] Dave Foy: I'm totally up for it. I'm pitching for it at the moment. I'm pitching hard.
[00:04:11] Nathan Wrigley: The reason I say Sir Dave Foy though is 'cause anybody in the WordPress space who's wanted to learn new things, it's probably come across Dave at some point in the past. He's got a long and storied history of creating educational content and videos and courses and all of that kind of thing. And that's what we're gonna talk about today.
We're gonna talk about him flip-flopping, I think, in the way that he's been presenting his courses and deciding about the pedagogy behind them. Oh, I got to use the word pedagogy in a podcast
[00:04:38] Dave Foy: Ooh.
[00:04:39] Nathan Wrigley: I'm quite pleased with myself. but Dave, do you wanna just introduce yourself? I know it's a banal question, but just tell us a bit about you very quickly.
[00:04:47] Dave Foy: I will do. Hi, I'm Dave Foy. I, I teach web designers how to build websites with WordPress. I started teaching online around about 2017. I'll skip. I will provide too many spoilers about what we're gonna be talking about, but I started teaching online in 2017. At the time I was focused on teaching specifically the element or page builder, but I've since diversified and doing other things.
but yeah, that's what I do. Making courses, making YouTube videos, and, and yeah, teaching online.
[00:05:20] Nathan Wrigley: You, you got an actual past in teaching real humans in the real world, little humans. I think it's fair to say, didn't you used to be a primary, well, we call it primary school in the UK primary school teachers, so you've actually, you've been in the weeds of really demanding students.
[00:05:38] Dave Foy: Absolutely. If you can control a class of seven year olds, you can teach adults
[00:05:44] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that's true. But you know what's interesting about that though? I'm imagining that it lays the groundwork, the foundational bits in your brain of atomizing a thing into easy to understand bits. 'cause that, I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's not everybody who can break down a task.
we've all been in proximity to people who explain something and at the end, everybody in the room is utterly confused because they just don't have that capacity to break it down into its component parts, lay them out, lay them bare, make it easy to understand. And I'm guessing teaching a classroom of seven year olds is gonna do exactly that.
[00:06:22] Dave Foy: Yeah. I think that's what you've gotta do when you're teaching small children. You've gotta break things, write down, and you've gotta really understand what the component parts are of that step as well, because. This will lead into what we're talking about today. I think some of those kids in that class will struggle really badly with even the basics.
So you've gotta understand what those basics are in order to then be able to supplement that learning, and provide that differentiation. And then you've got kids who absolutely just grasp immediately. So then you've gotta be able to extend that for them as well. So you've gotta really understand the process.
I think it partly comes from having an empathy, so some, understanding of empathy, like empathy with other people and their position and their understanding, which I think I've always had. I don't know whether you can teach that really, but just being able to put yourself in somebody else's place, understand the confusions that they have, understand what they're struggling with, and be able to take them from that place and explain what's, going on.
I think. Also, partly it helps to not be too much of an expert in the thing that you're teaching, because what often happens is that the really big experts, the, major world expert in whatever topic you choose typically can't really teach it because they're so far removed from, the beginners. So, I therefore decide never to become too expert in anything that I'm teaching, so that I can remain in touch with my students.
[00:07:57] Nathan Wrigley: emperor moment, isn't it? but the curious thing there is though, that I think that what you touched on, this sort of empathic thing and this ability to tolerate the fact that not everybody will understand things on the first pass, and it, and not like that, ugh, taught.
Why haven't you got it? I've definitely explained it well enough. Well wait, hang on. It's actually the other way round. Clearly you didn't explain it well enough because there's one child over there who, despite your best attempts, still didn't get it. More breakdown is needed. So it's like that empathy and toleration and Yeah, I can, only imagine how interesting that whole, that whole thing would've been.
But, it obviously propelled you into deciding to do it online. You stepped away from the classroom and stepped into, the virtual classroom. What, what's been this fun epiphany that you've had over the, last few weeks, which caused us to get you on the podcast? So just explain about how you, oh.
And I know that maybe you're going to unpick your epiphany and realize that maybe the epiphany wasn't an epiphany. I don't know. there's too many epiphanies there, but you get, would you just explain to us how you have been teaching, let's say, until last year? How were you doing all of that? And explain that process.
'cause honestly, from my point of view. That seems like some level of torture. In all honesty, it seems like there was an awful lot that you had to do to get a course out.
[00:09:23] Dave Foy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, when I decided to teach online, actually there was about a 16 year gap in between me leaving the classroom, which I left because of dissatisfaction with the way that education was going and the, bureaucracy that the government at the time was introducing. So I actually left classroom education in 2003, at the grand old age of about 30, I think at the time.
Can't do basic maths. So I'll guess at 30 roughly, I should know. But yeah, so, so for me it was like, I am gonna just go and do something completely different, throw the cards up in the air. I don't want to be one, I don't want to be sat with all of these. in primary school it is mostly female teachers, so I wouldn't want be to see myself at the age of 50 and 60 sat in a classroom, sorry, a staff room surrounded by.
Teachers moaning and complaining, which was what was happening? Well, I'll go and do something else. So I got, anyway, fast forward, got into web design, taught myself how to do it. I've been doing it for, a little while myself. Anyway, just as a hobby and just thought, how hard can it be? So taught myself to do that, did the whole client agency thing.
And, but I would, get on an roughly 18 month cycle, an urge to teach again. I'd be, bombarded with feelings of, what are you doing? You've got this talent. You actually, I, hated the bureaucracy of the classroom and, the, UK education system, but actually the teaching part of it was fabulous.
I loved the teaching part. And yeah, I used to get that all the time. I would actually periodically, every 18 months, go and do what we call supply teaching in the uk. Like a substitute teacher. I have seen School of Rock. I know what a substitute teacher is, so yeah. a substitute teacher. I go and do that for a little bit and run a mile and think, no.
Oh yeah, I remembered now it's, it is got even worse than it was, when I was here before. So, yeah. So anyway, I got to about 2016 ish and thought, do you know what I actually, this is what I need to be doing. I've got to, this is my calling. It's my vocation. I'm born to teach. I've just, I'm absolutely desperate to do it again.
So, yeah, had the bright idea, well, hang on a minute. I've got the web design experience many years. I've been building websites since 1998, I think was the first one. and then I've also got this teaching experience. So let's combine the two.
Now, at the time, I'd, been researching this thing for procrastinating.
Basically for probably the best part of two years at that point, and watching all kinds of videos and taking a few courses by people who taught a method of teaching online and running an online course business whereby you made courses. And in fact, the, buzzword at the time we're talking nearly nine years ago now.
The buzzword at the time was signature courses. So the whole idea was don't bother creating a tiny course on this and another one on, having a 5, 10, 20 courses available on your website. No, you don't do that. You create one monster signature course that takes somebody all the way from beginning to end, to achieve a particular result.
Now I thought, well, I can do that. I'd rather make one course than make 10 of them and have to maintain all of them. So I'll do that. So that's what I did when I first started, which it wasn't. Probably that long after that you and I virtually met and since met offline as well. So it was around that time.
And so I made my very first course, no stress, WordPress at the time, and it was a big hit 'cause I'd done all kinds of YouTube promotion and built an email list and all that sort of thing. And the, the process of making that first course was typically quite hard. 'cause I was just learning how to do the thing.
Learning. I can teach, but actually learning how to do it online and all the tech and the cameras and the mics and the editing and all of the rest of it wasn't, as easy as I first, imagined. So, but anyway, I got there in the end, delivered the course. The course was an absolute like roaring success.
And then. Not two months after that, the course was completely obsolete because Elementor I'm convinced were just, we're just hanging back, just waiting. They were like, just, wait, guys, wait, until he's just delivered.
[00:14:12] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.
[00:14:13] Dave Foy: Let's, he's, done it. He's done it.
Right? Release the version two. So they released version two and the whole Elemental Pro version two, which added a whole layer of stuff, which essentially made my entire course obsolete. It wasn't a, it wasn't like a patching situation, which you can do sometimes, the UI changes, it's not a big deal.
You record another little video saying, Hey guys, the UI has changed a little bit. This was wholesale. So yeah, that first experience of courses with, teaching tech, teaching software, teaching ui, and features and functionality that changes. Sometimes slowly. Sometimes rapidly. But it is always changing that, that experience you would imagine would make me think, right, I'm not doing that
[00:15:07] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:08] Dave Foy: there, there surely must be a better way. But no, I decided to then make another course, which probably took me about the best part of six months 'cause it was far too ambitious. Again, did really well. And then probably within about, I probably got about nine months out of that one that was obsolete.
Then I thought to myself, I know what I'll do. I'll make no stress. WordPress version two, so I'll remake the entire thing. That lasted probably about another nine months, 10 months. and they do say, Don, the definition of
[00:15:44] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:46] Dave Foy: keep doing the same thing again. Hoping for a different result.
[00:15:50] Nathan Wrigley: I just interrupt there? So, basically you've, entered this, I guess tech is unique. Maybe if you were, I don't know, teaching psychology or something like that, or, I don't know, plastering or brick laying or something. Maybe, it's not going at the same rate of knots.
So maybe something that you create in that format might survive decades. But, given the fast pace of technology, I guess there's some expectation, but regardless of that expectation, it must be fairly. Demoralizing to realize that the thing that you built, which potentially could have stayed on sale for years and been generating this sort of passive income, you could have gone on and done another course, but that thing would be sitting in the background, still creating an audience and generating revenue that suddenly is off the table because the technology has moved on and rendered it completely obsolete.
The other curious observation that I've got is the, I guess if you're in the classroom, you've, you're always doing the thing against the clock. So, you'll show up, you'll be there at kind of nine in the morning and you do your nine to 10 literacy lesson or whatever it may be. And that's that one done, never to be repeated.
It's just you did that one and then the next hour you do the next thing and the next hour you do the next thing. Whereas with the online material, and I've got this feeling that you sweat the detail so you know, you, Heart and soul into it, edit it within an inch of its life, probably do retakes of, maybe dozens of times for the exact same thing.
And so the disposable side of teaching in the real world where an hour is never to be repeated as opposed to the recording it, but it might take you 15 hours to get one hour done. I dunno what the ratio is. But that's, also, I imagine, can become quite demoralizing. You see this kind of time cost benefit analysis really starting to kick in.
And so you, the thing which only lasts for two months in the real world took you a hundred eighty, a hundred ninety, two hundred and fifty, whatever hours to complete. Oh, it starts to, little, part of your brain starts to engage and say, Dave, I'm not sure if this is worth doing.
[00:18:05] Dave Foy: It is interesting because what I realized when I started teaching online, well actually rewinding back to the classroom, as you say, the classroom you are, obviously I would, there would be lesson plans and there would be curriculum plans and we'd, plan as a gear group what we were gonna do, but a lot of it is.
Kind of seat of your pants sort of stuff. you're launching in, you dunno what's gonna happen. You dunno what it, what, what's, what kids are gonna fi find difficult or what they might find far too easy. You've gotta think on your feet all the time and deliver it and it's done. And for me, that was great actually.
I actually really enjoyed that, that dynamic, that really, that was that real, time feedback kind of process. Really appealed to me at the time. Bizarrely, I know why, but bizarrely when I started teaching online. I, it, I was horrified about how hard I was finding it, and I don't mean hard in terms of just figuring out how to do the editing, but from a, an anxiety point of view, from a perfectionism point of view, perfectionism being a manifestation of fear basically.
And I, I realized fairly, early on, but I've got much more attuned to it these days. I realize fairly early on that you're producing something. Well, my brain thinks anyway, I'm producing something for a global audience, which is gonna be around forever, which it's not. But my brain doesn't know that.
And people are gonna be watching it. They're gonna be judging it. They're gonna be judging me. They're gonna be picking the whole thing apart. And that sets off my primitive lizard brain to make these courses abso, like you say, edited within an inch of the life. Absolutely. The, I discovered an inner perfectionist that.
Quite seriously freaked me out in a big way. And my solution to that was, well, that's fine. I will script more, I will edit more, I will spend more time. Now, obviously that is ridiculous. That is, an issue with this process that is probably more particular to me than it might be for other people who may be more happy to hit record wing it.
It'll do, it's good enough. And so if later on that course becomes obsolete, no big deal, it'll take me a week to just record a a, brand new version. It's, no big, it's not a problem. So there was, that issue definitely. there was that issue definitely around that. The other thing to say, just picking on another one of your points is that the, I suppose the irony of me teaching a topic that is the opposite of evergreen.
So you were talking about these courses that may be on an evergreen topic that might last for years, I believe me, have looked and, brainstormed and said, agonized over, there's gotta be an evergreen topic that I can specialize in and teach or make a course on where the software doesn't change.
And, but the iron is that actually the value of the fact that this stuff needs to be up to date. People who are using, for example, I'm specializing in bricks right now. So people who are trying to learn bricks, they have this urgent need to learn bricks as it is now the current version, not some outdated thing that somebody's watching a YouTube video of for that's two years old.
And so actually the fact that it's not evergreen and it is current. Actually is the thing that people are buying and it makes selling those courses so much easier than it would if it was something that was evergreen. There's a built-in urgency almost in the, in the model.
[00:22:00] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it's curious because there, there's a lot of you in this conversation, isn't there? There's a lot of like your personality coming out and the, bit, like you said, some people will be quite happy putting out something that they've thrown together. Maybe they even just sat down and literally winged it for an hour, and that's an hour's lesson right there.
Your personality, seemingly does or did not. allow you to do that. And, and that is such an, that's such a contrast to a classroom teacher, isn't it? Where every hour is basically winging it. In this situation, you can provide for every hour that you produce for the online content, that there could potentially be an infinite number of hours behind that.
But also what's curious is when you're teaching the seven year olds in the classroom, there's, nobody really, I'm sure that, there are inspectors and things like that, that once in a while kind of drop in to make sure that you're doing things correctly. But most of the time it's just you with that cohort and what you did is what you did.
Whereas with teaching stuff online, you're creating a permanent record for everybody to have. Well, if you're anxious, it may be, well, I'm creating this and everybody's gonna have a go, so I've gotta make it perfect so that there's less opportunity for them to have a go or to find fault or for it not to be perfect.
And and it sounds like certainly in the more recent past, you've been wrestling with this yet again.
[00:23:21] Dave Foy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And it, it contributes quite a lot to the kind of burnout that I feel making a course. The amount of time it takes me away from doing things that I should be doing for my business, which is things like YouTube, I should be. Publishing on YouTube probably, like once, a week, to teach free stuff and build my audience and build awareness for my courses.
But by the time I've made one of these courses, I'm completely burnt out. I've been away from, I can't, I just don't have the time to do that either. now it, what I, did, I've tried all kinds of different things. One of them being making shorter courses, so the idea being that I can make something shorter that's on a smaller topic.
I've done one like a year ago on like DNS for web, like non-techie web designers. That's great. It's not too long. I've done one recently called How WordPress Works, which is just
[00:24:16] Nathan Wrigley: Um.
[00:24:17] Dave Foy: the, basics of how the WordPress ecosystem works underneath the page builder, which a lot of page builder users really struggle with.
Those are things that are relatively evergreen, certainly more than a, page
builder. Relatively small, relatively easy to make, relatively easy to update. So the, there are, there, there is certainly value in making courses, definitely. But I started to discover that making the kind of course that people really value, which is, I've got this page builder and I need you to take me all the way from the very beginning to being able to build a reasonably functional, dynamic, modern website.
That's what people really value. And it's that thing that I was, like really struggling with, which is led me to ultimately change what I'm, doing
[00:25:17] Nathan Wrigley: So I saw something, I guess maybe it was on Twitter. I dunno if you used Twitter. I dunno where I saw it, but I saw that you had, and this is going back a few months now, you'd obviously been wrangling with this problem, this massive burden of creating this leviathan of a course and the detail and the stress that causes in the background that nobody ever gets to see a cause.
'cause you always present the sort of best version of yourself and what have you. But all of that has obviously been bubbling up in the background. And so you decided to have a think, look at it from a different angle. And so the, conversation that I was expecting today was gonna go in one direction.
Maybe we'll go in a slightly different direction. We'll see. But you decided that you wanted to upend that model of the Leviathan course. And so where did that take you? What was the epiphany that you had a few months ago?
[00:26:05] Dave Foy: Well, I've got to the point of being at the point of remaking my original bricks course. So that was called Build with Bricks, and I'd been. Certainly, maybe not promising, but certainly quite enthusiastically talking about my plans for it and talking to the current students of that course. It desperately needed remaking and I was absolutely dreading.
It
[00:26:30] Nathan Wrigley: Hmm.
[00:26:30] Dave Foy: just, dread is, the word. there was partly the, dread of the process of, oh God, I'm gonna have to make another course 'cause it completely needs remaking. I'm probably gonna get 12 months maximum out of this thing. I cannot sustainably do this. I'll tell you just briefly, there was another aspect of this as well, which was actually fairly important, was realizing that the, that people's, I, dunno what the word is, relationship with online.
Online training was changing in a big, way. It changed massively. When I first started, people were really up for buying courses. buying a course was the way that people who valued that kind of thing. At least that's the way that they improved their skills and learned new things.
The, I think people have started to be feeling a little bit burned by the online course model, the self-study traditional course where you get a load of, you get a load of videos, you sit down, you watch those videos, and you, there might be a support group provided, all that kind of thing. But generally speaking, the, you're on your own now.
I started noticing that people were becoming a bit reticent to, to, buy those courses and I think. It might be because some of the courses that they've been buying simply weren't very good. They'd had enough of thinking, oh, I bought this course, it's promised all this stuff, and it's, rubbish. So I think there might be a, part of that.
I'm hoping that my courses don't come within that, bracket. I don't think so. But I was also seeing that people were just not taking the courses. They were not getting the result, the completion rates were going down. my completion rates are around about 50%, which if you talk to somebody in the, industry, they would say, wow, 50% is amazing.
That's incredible. I think what 50% of the people that have bought my course to get a result are not actually completing the thing. Now you might, there, there will be some people who have got so far and thought I've seen enough, meaning they've got the ability now to go off and do what they need to do and, that's it.
So, but I think there is an aspect of
[00:28:58] Nathan Wrigley: Oh,
[00:28:59] Dave Foy: dopamine hit that people get, they buy the course and they feel like they've bought the result that they want. that's, that's the, just the way that their primitive brain works. I don't blame anybody for it 'cause it's just how we're wired up.
So they're getting the dopamine hit, but they're, really approaching these courses like, I dunno, like a Netflix binge
[00:29:23] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Passive consumption really, isn't it? It's, yeah.
[00:29:26] Dave Foy: Yeah. Information, not transformation is, the buzz phrase. But that's it. It's information. It's sat there, it's just passively taken it in.
And then three months later, they still can't do the thing that they hope that they'd be able to do because they've had no support, they've had no structure. They might have been able to ask questions in a, group that was provided with the course, which I've always provided. But yeah, there's a, there's an aspect of that which just didn't sit well with me.
So it wasn't just a dread of the time and the obsolete nurse, the, course is becoming obsolete. It was that aspect of it as well. It was like, I dunno whether I'm actually serving people. If I want people to get a result, am I serving them in the best way by this model? So anyway, so yeah, dread. recently joined. A live cohort program. Nothing to do with web design. It was to do with nervous system regulation actually, which ties into the whole perfectionism, anxiety thing. It's something that, yeah, I'll be, I won't go down that rabbit hole, but during this live cohort, which quite frankly, when it started and when I was enrolling for it, I hoped really would've wished that it would've been a self-study kind of thing.
It's like, ah, you know what? I'd rather do this in my own time. just leave me alone. I don't wanna be on a call with a load of
[00:30:51] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah,
[00:30:53] Dave Foy: Oh my goodness. the experience and the results were fantastic. I loved it. The whole thing of, well, well, partly the fact that we were doing this thing now, right?
There's all these people that, I dunno how many people on this program, maybe 300 or so, 400. but we were all doing this thing now. Right? it's not a case of I'll buy it now, I'll, watch the thing later on. No, It's happening now. Week one's call is today. you've gotta get on with it.
The, feeling of all being part of something that all sorts of other people from around the world, from all walks of life were all doing now all together, was just the difference in the experience was absolutely astonishing.
[00:31:44] Nathan Wrigley: That's fascinating. Yeah.
[00:31:45] Dave Foy: And I did, And I, I know from experience that I probably wouldn't have done the work.
I would've put it on the back burner. I'd have thought, oh, do you know what? it's too much. Time's passed. Now I've, I'll forget it. I just got on, did the work and that feeling of live community. Different than a support group where you can just pop in and ask questions. This was a live community and it had a closing day as well.
So the thing actually show up shop after six weeks and that was it. You were done. You could download the material, you could download the calls. So I had a bit of a light bulb moment, and it's not, this lik bulb moment is not for, the want of people telling me that this might, this kind of thing might be a good idea.
In the past, several people have talked to me about it and said, well, why do you do some kind of like live cohort experience? And I've, I think quite frankly, being terrified of the idea. I'll, sit and carefully script and edit my courses. Thank you. And let's not, be
[00:32:54] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, you can minimize the potential chaos, can't you? But equally, you can also maximize the amount of dead time and fussing about things that ultimately don't matter. Sorry, I interrupted.
[00:33:04] Dave Foy: Yeah. Yo, you're absolutely right. Yeah. you know me better than I know myself, I think. But yeah, so, so it solved a few problems or it promised to solve a few problems. Anyway, I have started running a, program in this live cohort format, and we've, I'm, currently at the time of recording just at the start of week two.
So I've, learned a lot, but the promise was, well, firstly, teaching this thing live to a, small group of people means that it is always up to date. Whatever I'm teaching is up to date for that particular piece of software. Bricks, in this case, bricks page builder, is up to date because we are using the current version of that software.
And actually if in week three, Brix has an update, big update even, so what.
[00:33:51] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:52] Dave Foy: in week three, I teach using that version of the, of, the software. So there's that, there's the whole thing that it's time limited, which forces people to focus, take action. the, we're doing it now, let's do this.
Like, there's, you can't put it off if you're gonna buy into this thing, you need to set aside the time, what you're getting yourself into. The support is available. The intensive support is available now, so we're doing it now. The, feeling of community and connection, that, that provides way, way more than just a support group, which typically with a course is really like a glorified ability to email the instructor.
Really?
[00:34:36] Nathan Wrigley: it's a simulation of a community, isn't it? It's, like being in a Facebook group or something. You, may get along with some people, but you can also just completely opt out and it's not, yeah. There is something about being in proximity to people, whether that's in an online way, looking at what, how they're reacting to you, talking about things, exchanging pleasantries and jokes and stories about your life and your family and all of that kind of stuff.
It embeds something, which, most of us find satisfying on a deep level.
[00:35:08] Dave Foy: Yeah. Well, I think we are disconnected. it's a, it's quite a cliche, I think at the moment that with our, the, easier it's been for us as a race with the internet to connect with each other. We have paradoxically become more disconnected. And I think also with AI and stuff, just being, like lots of fake fakery around.
I think people are, and I've seen this for myself with this particular program. I hoped it will be the case, but I've been absolutely vindicated that people are desperate for that feeling of community and connection. Doing something together and supporting each other and being accountable for each other.
also the fact that it, I feel like it would take me back to a bit more like real
than making a Netflix binge series entertainment. I'm actually doing the job of a teacher for me shouldn't really be just providing information, but it should be providing some information and some teaching, but then also providing tasks and follow on tasks and keeping an eye on who's falling behind and who needs extra extension, and extended tasks
[00:36:23] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, my memory of like being in school, is that roughly a quarter of the whole hour would be something which you'd describe as providing information. So the teacher would stand at the front, do the thing for 15 minutes or 20 minutes or whatever it would be, and then the remainder of that time would then be doing that thing.
So if it was a maths lesson, they would describe this new thing in maths that you'd not been familiar with before. Demonstrate a few examples. Then it's like, right crack on and you'd crack on waste a bit of time here and there. Have a natter with the people sitting next to you. Ask the teacher when you got stuck, put your hand up or what have you.
But the vast majority of the time was not. Listening to some person, it was doing the thing that they described to you, thereby gaining some experience, but that camaraderie of doing it with other people, is probably the, glue that makes school, well, in my case, so memorable. I really loved being at school.
[00:37:19] Dave Foy: Yeah. Weirdo.
[00:37:20] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. Sorry.
[00:37:21] Dave Foy: Some people
[00:37:22] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. I really did. I was, had a great time.
[00:37:25] Dave Foy: I became a teacher and I was somebody who hated school, so I dunno how that
[00:37:30] Nathan Wrigley: but the point being though that it isn't just a process of like, like you said, entertainment. You do an hour and it's just Dave talking for an hour and then you're expected to go off and do it. There is something about working in cohorts that kind of peer, well pressure as much as, the enjoyment of being amongst your peers, but also that, oh, they're doing it well.
I should probably try it as well. But also that kinda like shared experience. I, and it is, I think it's really weird. So I do this page builder summit thing and we have these calls and what have you where people join together and it is really curious to me that you put a bunch of people who have a similar job together and they've got so much to talk about.
And, if you were to drop some other random individual who had nothing to do with web design into that room, they'd think they're all weird. What the heck. but these people, because of their background and the fact that they're doing this similar thing, they lo they kinda love each other's company and as soon as one person starts to talk, the flood gates open and all these other people Oh, yeah, Before, and I'm making that hand gesture of people talking, Yeah. Having a good old matter. That kind of stuff is very important.
[00:38:39] Dave Foy: Yeah. Yeah. It absolutely is. And I know that some people would say, oh, that's not for me. I'm not sociable. I, would prefer to sit in my own room and just watch some videos, leave me alone. But I would suggest that it, that isn't really how human beings optimally learn. I think actually being in an environment where other people are all doing that same thing at the same time and being able to get that, support as well for them, quite individualized support really, I think.
And also the focus on action. So the focus on taking action on something rather than just. Inhaling information and, then what I think the other thing as well, which ties in perfectly was that it also struck me that with this, when I make a course, which is self-study and you go off and you watch it yourself, I have to try to think of all kinds of scenarios that people might want to learn and. Yeah. and so I have, I certainly, I think I've got a lot better at not just giving people absolutely everything, even in the traditional course format, because that's actually not, it's not what people want, and I don't think it serves people very well either. But I've got to try to think of all skill levels, all the different things that people might need to know, what they might not know, what they might know.
I think I've got quite good at it over the last eight or nine years. I've got a fairly good idea of that, but it struck me, well, actually, with this particular format, I can have some, like, let's say it's six week, this particular thing is, it's six weeks. Each of those weeks has got a particular theme, so it's a certain, by the end of that week, they should be able to do this particular thing, whatever the topic of that week is.
I only need to really give them some core foundational skills in that week, in the actual teaching, like the equivalent of the 15 minutes of your teacher providing some instruction in the class. But the rest of it, I can let them go off on their own. I can give them tasks to do, like, given what you've just seen and the principles that I've just shown you, I've done off the top of my head, go and build that.
Go, build this, other thing and try to see if you can do that. If people need extra help, I can take it back and record or just talk to them on the calls. Let's, rewind a little bit and just, go back a couple of steps. If there are people that are like, yeah, I've got that already.
Now what? Like, well, all right, then I'll give you something a bit more complex. So it means that I'm not having to, I'm not having to worry too much about Overteaching
[00:41:38] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah,
[00:41:39] Dave Foy: in order to try to, meet everybody's
[00:41:42] Nathan Wrigley: It sounds to me like you've, modeled possibly the, lesson plan, I'm gonna use that word, the lesson plan that you might have wandered into a class with, when you were teaching the seven year olds. It's like, here's the outline of what I want to get across.
I'll do that. And then right over to you, you crack on those people that struggle. I can help them because they can tell me. And that's the bit, that's the bit that the course where you de deliver this giant course. That's the bit, you can never provide that. Okay. Now tell me. What you need to do right now.
'cause the bit you don't understand, you know that's the bit which stops course completion because the frustration, well he never talked about this particular thing that I wanted to learn about. I'm stuck. He didn't specifically mention the thing that I need to know. Well, they can get in and tell you that at that moment, but then also as you said, the people who are finding that trivially easy 'cause they know about it, you can then give them something else to do.
It's that perfect sort of simulation of a classroom lesson, I guess a lesson plan, let everybody crack on and then get feedback and extend things or differentiate, I think is what you said. differentiate it so that those people that are struggling can have more of my time. Those people that need pushing on, they can be extended in some way and it's nice, I can see how the classroom teacher in you wants this model.
It, the more that you talk about it, the more it maps to your, old life in some ways.
[00:43:04] Dave Foy: Yeah. I think it more, it, more closely, It, should lead to, better results. I've actually talked to people who are thinking of enrolling in this particular program that I want it to really be like a can't fail kind of thing. So, the, there really can't be a way that you can fail or not complete it and not walk away with the end result that you want.
Now I know that a few people, including myself, might be thinking, yeah, but hang on a minute, this isn't very scalable. So that's one thing that I thought, well, me making the self study courses and then putting them online on the sales page and somebody just buys it, takes it is. Far closer to the passive income dream, but I'm gonna laugh at the phrase, passive income.
[00:44:02] Nathan Wrigley: yeah. I'll bet there was nothing passive about that at all.
[00:44:05] Dave Foy: There's nothing passive about teaching tech things online at all. Definitely not.
[00:44:11] Nathan Wrigley: like when you were a teacher, I'm imagining that the, I'm imagining that the incentives for you to do that in the first place didn't really have much to do with scaling anything. it was just about like, there's some inner need to provide assistance to other human beings on whatever level that be, whether it's, primary school maths or CSS or DNS education or whatever it may be.
That's it. It's not the, I want to become enormously wealthy and, have this thing that can just grow enormously and scale. Maybe that's not the incentive for you. Maybe the incentive is more about, okay, I, this week I helped 15 people and I did a good job.
[00:44:57] Dave Foy: Yeah. I would much rather ultimately, because I'm, I have an online education business to help people and to give them results and to get them the outcome that they want. So for me, I would rather a hundred people pay more money, actually. So it's, it's certainly more of a premium product, but pay more money and actually kept the result and walk away being able to do the thing rather than selling passively to a thousand people of whom maybe only some of them will even watch the course at all.
Will even press play on the first video?
[00:45:32] Nathan Wrigley: as it shifted that the amount that where your time is involved. So in the previous iteration of the way you did courses, this, these giant things, presumably it was all, not all, but a lot of backend time. like thinking of the course, making the course, editing the course, putting a website up for the course and yada, yada.
On it goes. Now, I presume there's still bits of that, but it feels like that's now skewed to the time is gonna be spent possibly more after the lesson has happened because you do the lesson and now, okay, the 10 hours that I allocated to make every hour of that previous course, I'm now gonna allocate that 10 hours to communicating with my cohort of people.
And, so maybe you won't save time. But you'll have allocated the time differently, and it w it won't be more like, it won't be planned in the same way. It'll be more serendipitous and whatever the people bring to you. Does that make sense to, am I making any
sense
[00:46:26] Dave Foy: it does make sense actually. Well, so first, Format that I ran this cohort thing, I, should probably explain what the idea of it was. The idea of it was, is that it's, and it's the first time I've run it, so a lot of it is guesswork on my part. Really. It's like, I, think this might be the right way to do it, I don't know, but, you've gotta just put, stick a foot out, haven't you?
And, go for it and see. So yeah, the idea was is it's like over six weeks and each week there's a particular theme, and I, the format that I started with in week one was having the week starts with a live call. So that live call should be around about 90 minutes. And the idea being that, actually the live call is the core.
Skills teaching for that particular week. But the idea, so the idea being that because it's live, it's up to date, it's, it's, I'm, we're, teaching something live, we've got the feedback. People can ask questions as we go. I can stop and start, but that is the core skills that they need to know for that particular week.
And then they can go away and do the tasks that I set them and ask questions in the community and everything else. So that was the idea. And also for me, throughout the rest of the week to deliver like extra training. So if they needed extension or there's, it's unlikely I'll be able to cover absolutely everything within a 90 minute live call.
So, yeah. Alright. In the rest, of the week, that's fine. We'll cover that core stuff and in the rest of the week I will then add additional content. That was the idea and I ran that for the first week. Now the first live call or the first live training really, freaked me out. Big style.
[00:48:22] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, come.
[00:48:23] Dave Foy: I, yeah, it was fun. It was great. Everybody loved it. Mostly the tech works. I'm, I, think I've got that whole kind of broadcast thing working out pretty well, but it just freaked out. My inner perfectionist again, the guy who just gets so much peace from, just taking my time and scripting, having to deliver it live, fluffing things, making mistakes, having pauses, where normally on a video, it would just be straight into the next section.
I'm like, right. Just, oh, just a second. Just Oh, right. oh, where's, my, oh, right. This, screen
[00:49:04] Nathan Wrigley: I, so I'm gonna just calm you down. You mean like normal life, Dave?
[00:49:09] Dave Foy: Yeah, exactly. Like normal people. Can you imagine?
[00:49:12] Nathan Wrigley: but, isn't that curious that there's some bit of you that, that wants that interaction to be abnormal, like abnormally perfect. And I totally get it. I'm not, trying to te, teach you anything. I'm sure you understand, but I can totally understand how that bit.
Like that persona that you've developed, you, would like that to happen. You would like that hour to be perfect. You would like, every time you move the mouse for the, line to be dead straight to get to where you want to go. In half a second. Not, oh, where's that menu item? Hang on. Where do I clear?
I've forgotten where that link is. that kind of stuff. Isn't that interesting? Okay. Sorry I interrupted. Carry on.
[00:49:52] Dave Foy: Well, no, It's fine. But it, I did really struggle with it actually, and I watched the replay back 'cause I'm providing the replay recordings and chopping it up into little sort of individual re bits of the replay. And yeah, I'm watching it back thinking, oh, people loved it.
The reaction was great, the feedback was great. The chat was going wild with people saying, oh wow, I've got so much from this. It was brilliant.
[00:50:18] Nathan Wrigley: No, it's not enough.
[00:50:20] Dave Foy: so that was, yeah, that was good. the problem that I found, and I, think I found the solution, but the problem that I found as well, despite me just needing to get over myself, the problem that I found was that live teaching is, and I know this, but I think I figured that I might be able to develop some sort of superhuman power from somewhere, pull it outta my back pocket that I could get around this.
But the live teaching format. Is inherently slow, especially when you're teaching quite tech heavy, dense UI on screen. our typical page builders, like there's tiny little icons everywhere. As much as I zoom the screen in and get things nice and big as much as I can, it's still quite dense ui, it's still gotta be quite precise.
People have got to be able to follow along, where is he clicking? What's happening there? What, where did that dropdown come from? All that kind of thing. it, although I am talking about, the, in an ideal world, it would just be perfect, but beyond that still has to, it is still a particular kind of topic.
That live training is just slow. And so what I found in week one is that despite my best efforts, despite. Lots and lots of practice, despite having all my scenes and slides and everything else, all on my fancy little stream deck thing with all the buttons. It was, it's just still incredibly slow
[00:51:51] Nathan Wrigley: Still, yeah. Chaos
and,
[00:51:54] Dave Foy: Yeah. Yeah. And also, what I realized is that, well, actually now, I'll tell you what I've realized in a moment. I'll, keep going. But yeah. So what the problem then was I'm thinking, well, we've only covered about half of what I actually wanted to cover in week one. Oh my days, right? What am I gonna have to do?
So then it was a mad scramble for the rest of the week to then record separate videos, which I did live, live without an audience, pretty much live with minor editing, just getting over my perfectionist, usual self. but it was a mad scramble to deliver the rest of the content that was actually the core content for that particular week.
Now at the end of week one, I, actually got to the weekend and I thought, it's gonna get easier, isn't it? I'm gonna get better at this. It, I, will, it will get easier. Nobody's complaining, everybody's loving it. The community, the connection, everything going on in there
[00:52:53] Nathan Wrigley: I am sensing there's a, but.
[00:52:56] Dave Foy: fantastic. So, all kinds of aspects of this are going well, but that bit, yeah, I, had my reservations, but I thought, do you know, I'll, get good at this.
So anyway, week two live call, I've got planned what I thought for about an hour and a half was absolutely more than enough time to cover the core skills that they needed for that week. So, yeah, off we go. Now what I, what the penny that dropped very quickly during the week two live call. I, by the way, had got so much better.
I'd watched myself back, I'd realized a few things that I needed to tweak. There's a few aspects that just made things clearer and easier for people based on a bit of feedback and stuff as well. So it was, good. And it was going, it was definitely better than the first week. the people who attended week one would probably tell you it was great.
Loved it. what's his problem? it was good. But yeah, I, but it was, I started on the week two when we were about five minutes in. The penny dropped. I thought, hang on a minute. I am trying to run a live call, essentially doing double duty. I'm trying to teach like a course, but live despite, yet there'll be mistakes.
It's not gonna be as slick as an edited video, despite that. I'm trying to deliver a course, but live, and I'm also trying to deliver a live collaborative coaching experience as well
[00:54:33] Nathan Wrigley: gotta do all the buttons and the UI and click. Yeah.
[00:54:36] Dave Foy: Yeah, I, there are two separate vibes that, that are going on. it's, like I'm trying to do the teaching bit and I'm also trying to do the, more traditional way that most people would probably want to run a live event, which is more about, it's more relaxed.
You've got people asking questions, I can demo. Extra stuff. I can show people extended things. I can get people onto the stage, onto the screen. They can share their screen and share stuff that that, they're struggling with as well. But that is a very, different proposition. It's much more freeform and flexible and relaxed than me desperately trying to essentially teach a course but live.
So anyway, I decided, I thought, hang on. I, it sounds like I decided immediately I spent the rest of the evening and most of the next day thinking, I've gotta change this up. I've got to change this up. And then I realized, and I think this is pretty much what most people running a live cohort would actually do.
Or I think probably from my research since I think this is called a hybrid cohort, maybe, I dunno,
[00:55:53] Nathan Wrigley: so curious as to whether you
[00:55:56] Dave Foy: who knows?
[00:55:56] Nathan Wrigley: you should do at this point. I've got an idea of what I would do, so yeah, tell us what did
[00:56:01] Dave Foy: Yeah, or maybe not. You are probably cleverer than I am, but my idea was to essentially completely flip it over. So rather than live calls starting the week, which is the core skills, and then the extra content comes throughout the rest of the week with the, the extra, community and support do it the other way around.
I can't be doing that. I can't be having the live callers doing double duty and the mad scramble through the rest of the week. That's just insane. It's not what I wanted to do. So I've decided to, starting from this week, actually starting from next week, so from week three, it's to flip it over. In fact, the opposite's the reverse.
The week starts with me delivering three or four. Short-ish videos. Prerecorded, not heavily edited, not scripted, right? They recorded live pretty much. But the, i, do take the time to think it through. It's not live, to add in the things that make following tech teaching easier, like zooming into things at, appropriate times so you can more clearly see highlighting things occasionally on the screen that you need to draw people's attention to, but making those fairly short, keeping it to a maximum of four, right?
So there's only gonna be four videos teaching the core skills that they need to achieve that particular week's objective. And also not making them like I would normally think of a course. a traditional course has to be step by step, where each step, each lesson builds. On the next one, you've got this, you've gotta maintain this whole case study.
Story from beginning to end. So I'm making these, I've, started now with the, the, next lot of videos doing this is trying to make, you could argue, well, why don't you just make the course like that in the first place? But I think this only works if you've also got the live cohort experience as well.
But yeah, so, so those are the core skills that they absolutely need. And then give them the tasks that they need to do throughout that week. They watch those videos in their own time. Hopefully don't take too much time over it. They go off and practice because there are tasks and I'm encouraging them to come into the community, show the work, share the work, ask questions, ask for help, in the community.
I can record extra content. I can provide like extension content as well. So that then becomes the, the support and the community aspect. And then the live call comes at the end of that
[00:58:41] Nathan Wrigley: Right time
[00:58:41] Dave Foy: rather than being at the start. Yeah, they've had time to watch and practice. So the live call becomes more of, rather than me essentially performing like a, webinar where it's just me and everybody else just has to sit and watch.
It just becomes more relaxed there, it's, q and a, it's me going, right? Such a body had such a question about this particular thing. I didn't really cover this in the core skills. Let's, let me show you, let me demo this. additional thing. people can also come on to the stage themselves and share their own screen.
It's just much, much more, it's still teaching, still training. There's maybe an element of coaching going on, but it's just far more relaxed and fun, rather than me thinking, I've gotta squeeze all this stuff into a live
[00:59:31] Nathan Wrigley: is so interesting. I, in my head wondered if you'd arrive at the pre-recording bit. That's where I thought you'd go, and that is in fact what you were doing. I wondered if you were gonna end up with the pre-recording, but watching live. So you'd still have the same call, but you would play your prerecorded 90 minute, whatever that was gonna be.
And then I thought, man, that wouldn't be satisfactory either. 'cause you can't, then you can't deviate can you can't be involved in Oh wait or what have you. So I really like where you've ended up. So beginning of the week, everybody watches these short videos and then hopefully you'll be able to maintain that kind of, oh, I don't know, community spirit and pulling each other into the course and dragging each other along.
Because on, by the end of the week, the expectation is that you're gonna get together in the, you did that thing. I guess you'll maybe have to watch to make sure that people are just consuming the stuff at the beginning of the week. That I guess might be something to, you just have to see.
But that's you still gotta try it out. You don't know whether this is gonna succeed or not yet.
[01:00:35] Dave Foy: No, but I think it will. I think from the feedback I've had, I think it, will, it should solve, those problems. But I just wanted to just make sure, I always am anyway, but I, just wanted to be, on the lookout for anything that I can improve and quickly pivot and, change and adapt.
There's a couple of people, as well said that one of the problems that they didn't realize really until we started was that obviously not everybody can attend the live calls. There were people in New Zealand, Australia, even people in, I think I've got, like, there's a guy in Hong Kong. It's the middle of the night for him.
So there, there are quite a few people around the world who can't actually attend the live calls. Well, for those people, it's, if the live call is constituting. The core of the material that they need to, follow. all right. I do provide the replay of the call, but it's, not ideal for those people.
Whereas if the live calls are more just support and extensions and demos and all that kind of thing, and sharing ideas and banter as well, all that kind, time just to be able to do all that, then it becomes a much better for model, a much better model for those people as well. I think. What is inherent in, 'cause I know you were saying, well, you would have to just cross your fingers and hope that people still might watch those earlier, the start of the week videos.
They'll still actually get into the community and watch them and actually take action. What I've found is that this live cohort, six weeks, we're doing it now, really fosters that sense of that they've gotta do it now. So I'm finding that I am. Unlike previous experiments I've had with trying to run communities, people have said to me for years, you've gotta have a community.
I've never had a lot of success with them. This one seems to be practically running itself. I'm in there all the time. I'm, responding to people and setting little prompts and things, but I'm finding that people want to do it because they've dedicated the time they've invested, and that's what this whole thing is about.
So I'm not too worried about that.
[01:02:51] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Do you know what's curious as well is that this doesn't, like the, way you've got it set up now, it feels as if you could have no end date to it. It feels as if, like, if you wanted it to just become a, like not about bricks, say where you've got this stuff that you want to see off, you've got 10 weeks of brick stuff, let's say.
It feels like that little collection of people during that 10 weeks. You could be having a chat with 'em about, well what should we do in the next 10 weeks? And I don't know if that's the way you want to go. Maybe you wanna put it down after 10 weeks and have a respite and a holiday or what have you.
But it does, feel as if that little community could be a, just a thing which rolls over and the fact that it's less high pressure, more low key from your point of view. Yeah. Anyway, I'm not suggesting that you do that, but that's an
[01:03:41] Dave Foy: no. Yeah.
[01:03:43] Nathan Wrigley: possible way of keeping that community going,
[01:03:46] Dave Foy: I am considering this. I, like the idea of closing it down just because then there's an end day and it's focusing people's minds. But I've got a little idea about possibly offering those people to then continue access to the community, not particularly that cohort and that program, but to a more general area.
They'd have a little label of which particular cohort they belong to. So, they could keep that connection. It would obviously be for a very low monthly fee, just something that just ticks over. And they can be, they can still remain in touch and still be part of that thing, because I'm thinking of, I, I'd like a break in between these things.
So I'm thinking of running this maybe like four times a year,
[01:04:30] Nathan Wrigley: Yep.
[01:04:31] Dave Foy: something like that.
[01:04:31] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Gosh, what an interesting conversation that has been. Dave. We've reached the hour point. What the heck?
[01:04:38] Dave Foy: Oh.
[01:04:38] Nathan Wrigley: so into these conversations. I get completely entranced by what the person is talking about in this case, education and pedagogy and how you've wrangled.
I had no idea that we'd done an hour. It felt like 20 minutes. To me, that is so curious and, bound to be people listening to this who have thought about how they would orchestrate some kind of online course, and Dave's got some, interesting insights into ways that it's worked for him and ways that it hasn't worked for him.
If people wanna catch up with that course, or just more broadly wanna hang out with you or figure out, a conversation with you, where would they go?
[01:05:16] Dave Foy: well, I can give you my address if you
[01:05:17] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. You'd just come round and have a cup of
[01:05:19] Dave Foy: the door's always open, kettle's always on. We've got biscuits in, I think at the moment.
[01:05:26] Nathan Wrigley: It, what's the online address?
[01:05:30] Dave Foy: you've go to dave fo.com. yeah, and I've got all details there. There's a little, there's a little place to register your interest for the next cohort and stuff like that, so yeah.
Dave Foy
[01:05:39] Nathan Wrigley: tea and a biscuit waiting for
[01:05:41] Dave Foy: Yeah. Yeah. If you register, I'll send you a, I'll send you a biscuit.
[01:05:46] Nathan Wrigley: it's, I'd love that. I'd love to open up that envelope is crumbly Mess. And on that bombshell, Dave Foy, thank you so much for chatting to me and, but being very frank and honest and sharing the
[01:06:01] Dave Foy: thank you for having me.
[01:06:02] Nathan Wrigley: Absolutely
[01:06:03] Dave Foy: Yeah. Thank you for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. Love talking to you, Nathan.
[01:06:07] Nathan Wrigley: Very nice. Thank you so much.
Okay, there we go. That's all I've got time for. In a moment, I'll fade in some cheesy music and say adieu.
But before that, just a quick reminder. If you are in the WordPress space and you would like to help WP Builds continue through 2026, but also you'd like to get your messages out in front of a WordPress specific audience. You might be a hosting company, a plugin company. Maybe you've got a theme or maybe you've got a SaaS or something like that. Well, we can certainly help. wpbuilds.com/advertise to find out more. Or just email me admin at wpbuilds.com, and we will strike up a conversation and see what we can do. We've helped lots and lots of companies in the past.
Okay. I hope that you enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed what Dave had to say. Go and find him on the socials and leave some comments there to say that you heard about him over at WP Builds.
We'll be back next week for the This Week in WordPress show on Monday, but also for the podcast coming out next Thursday.
So here comes some cheesy music, and I'm gonna say stay safe. You have a good week. Bye-bye for now.
