412 – Exploring AI in WordPress with Matt Medeiros

[00:00:00] Nathan Wrigley: Hello there and welcome once again to the WP Builds podcast. You've reached episode number 412, entitled Exploring AI in WordPress with Matt Madeiros. It was published on Thursday, the 6th of March, 2025.

My name's Nathan Wrigley and before I am joined by Matt for the interview, a few bits of housekeeping. If you like what we're doing over at WP Builds, head to wpbuilds.com/subscribe, fill up the forms there, and we will keep in touch with you when we produce new content.

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Okay, what have we got for you today? Well, at the top of the show I mentioned that I've got  Matt Madeiros. Matt has obviously been in the WordPress space for many, many years. He is been doing podcasting for years, and this is a slightly unusual episode in that it's going out on his podcast as well as this podcast. So it may be that you've heard it already, if he's published it over there, maybe not. Maybe this is the first place that you're gonna be hearing it.

But nevertheless, we talk about the collaboration that we're doing and why we're doing it. We also talk about our opinions on audio versus video, and then we also get into AI.

Now, Matt has been exploring loads of different tools in the AI space, and I think it would be fair to say that he is not a developer. And yet has been having considerable success putting out all sorts of different pieces, and we specifically hone in on something he's built called Pulse WP. And he describes the process that he's used to build it. The tools that he's used to build it, and how easy it is for non-developers to build credible things with AI. And whether it's an existential threat to WordPress.

Anyway, it's a really interesting chat with Matt and I hope that you enjoy it.

Hello there, and welcome to the WP Builds podcast. It's very nice to have you with us. I am joined today by Matt Madeiros. How you doing, Matt?

[00:04:44] Matt Medeiros: Doing well, Nathan. Thanks for having me.

[00:04:46] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Matt, who's going first? Me or you?

[00:04:49] Matt Medeiros: You can go first. You can go.

[00:04:50] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, I'll go first. The reason that I'm gonna have to ask that question will become obvious in about three seconds time. Matt and I are doing a podcast together, but it's gonna end up in two different podcast clients because it's gonna go into his podcast and my podcast. So that's weird. Fairly new

[00:05:08] Matt Medeiros: Yes. This is new. And let me just ask you, before we dive into the WordPress and AI stuff and the life changing technology, let's just talk about this old dog of podcasting. You've been doing video for as probably as long as I have. and audio. Have you been following the recent, trend of the industry at large saying podcasting is now video and not audio, and what's your gut reaction?

[00:05:37] Nathan Wrigley: My gut reaction is to firstly make a massive confession, and that is that the podcast platform that we're using to record this is currently not recording the video. Have I made a giant error?

[00:05:52] Matt Medeiros: but you do live streaming, right? So do you consider the live stream, the podcast, a podcast as

[00:05:57] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I do. And my, my thing is all audio, I'm all in with audio and I'll tell you why. It's a personal preference and it's based upon my childhood really. When I was a, when I was a child, we had, we had audio on in the kitchen all the time. And it occurred to me at an early age, I wasn't told this, but it occurred to me that I could do things at the same time as listening to the audio do things which I wanted to get done, and it might be chores around the house or DIY or whatever it may be.

And I've always preferred the radio to the tv. I watch very little tv, but I consume a massive amount of, I don't consume much radio anymore, it's all podcasts. So for me, audio all the way, very conscious decision. And the only reason that I record my show on a Monday as video is 'cause it's the only real way to do that.

but it gets recycled as a. As a sort of audio podcast episode, and that's where my audience is. It's not really on YouTube or anything. What about you?

[00:06:58] Matt Medeiros: tons of podcasts, audio podcasts, and, I do jump between, YouTube and, my favorite podcast app, of the week. And, it's, great. But I will always defend audio because, listen, when it comes to a just production level, right? As it's just so much easier to, do audio than it is video.

Every second counts. excuse me, the train is moving above my head right now. Every second counts, Yeah. every second counts, in editing and production and setting up. So I am, all in with audio. I recently launched another project called Our Beloved Medium, which is an audio documentary slash. fictional entertainment series, and if we did video with that, it would have been a motion picture.

It would have, we would have to hire actors. Actors. it was impossible to produce what we produce with audio, which is story, voice, acting, sound effects, all this stuff. If we did that in video, we'd have to go to Hollywood and ain't got the budget for that.

[00:08:15] Nathan Wrigley: did that go? Because when we sat down, because Matt, and I sat down at Word Camp us in Portland, and you were talking about that becoming a thing. I think you'd even cast like voice actors and things like that at the time. So that's now shipped, is it? And you've done

[00:08:29] Matt Medeiros: yeah. we have the first episode out, and this is the episode that we're using as the, the carrot on the stick to get, some sponsorship dollars out there. rss.com. podcast hosting company is the first one to help us out with a, nice chunk of cash, helped us get our first, pay for our first voice actor and get this off the ground.

I have a small part in it. it's the last radio station on earth. It's, there's this company called Opus 3000. It's taking over all of the, radio stations and, we're the last radio station on earth broadcasting stories, of radio importance throughout humanity. And I'm the general manager of WFYZ.

Yes, it's a bit of a drama. It's a. True documentary as we interview folks who have covered the space over the last, 20, 30 years that we can reach out to. And it's fun.

[00:09:28] Nathan Wrigley: Gosh, that really is different. Do you like, okay, sorry, audience, we're just gonna totally digress here, but this is fun. would you drop the bits and pieces that you've done for the last sort of 20 years, like the, the tech based podcasting and all of that is, have you enjoyed it enough to think, gosh, if I could pivot to that, would be where I'd end up.

[00:09:49] Matt Medeiros: Yeah, because I, I, think it's still the act, of creating art. It's an art form, for me, right? Like the WP Minute is an art form for me. I. it's a way of storytelling, through, highlighting stuff, that folks have done in the WordPress space, and I see it, very similar.

if all of a sudden this took off and somebody was like, Hey, you have a book deal or a, movie deal out of this, audio story that you put together. yes, I could see myself being like, Hey, you know what, WordPress, that was fun, but now I'm gonna

[00:10:27] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, because it, although I know it's like striking a vein of gold. If you're a, a gold miner, the few people that do that, it's retire, amounts of money, isn't it? You can have one hit and it be the end of your working life if you choose to go that way.

Whereas the enterprise that we're involved with tech news, particularly WordPress tech News, is a, there's a small audience for that. It's a much more of a slog, and you'll never, ever hit that, gold sort of thread of gold that'll enable you to retire. Gosh, that's really interesting. I pray for you that, that works out.

That'd be great.

[00:11:03] Matt Medeiros: it's not the intent. Yeah. it's not the intent by any stretch of the imagination. The, yeah. the particular challenge for me with this project ar beloved Mediums to work, with a, former colleague of mine, Stuart Barefoot. He's the, he is the, the creator behind this and he's the editor.

I'm the executive producer. The challenge for me was, I wanna wear the executive producer title. Like I want to, I wanna learn that space, which is like largely what I do already for the WP Minute, which is awareness finance, like getting sponsorship dollars and having some creative angle on, the stuff that we're going after.

But the WordPress stuff, I think maybe another phrase for it is like, this stuff is a labor of love. The stuff that you do, the stuff that I do, this is a very small, this is a very small me air quotes media opportunity for folks like you and I. and I'm sure we, can get into it, but, we've seen other folks come into this space and come and go because they're approaching it from.

Like the typical, I want to be a YouTuber, I want to be this content creator that sells courses and do all this stuff. It's, that's fine. It's a fine goal. but the attention in the audience for WordPress feels big, but it's very, tiny. I've always said 10,000 English speaking humans in the world maximum care about the stuff that you and I, at least the stuff that I talk about.

I don't wanna, I don't want to cast the

[00:12:36] Nathan Wrigley: No, audience on you, number for Yeah. Yeah. So like that, that's the way that, that I see it. so you really like the stuff that, that you and I do tirelessly doing this, and folks like Ray, folks at wp, or mayor, these, folks who haven't given up on this space.

[00:12:56] Matt Medeiros: we're doing it because we love WordPress. And, that's the, motivation.

[00:13:01] Nathan Wrigley: Fascinating though, honestly, seriously. I really wish you the best of luck with that when you've got it all, when we finish recording this, can you, send me the links for that? I wanna listen. Yeah, that'd be great. Okay. So it's Matt Madeiros, it's me. We're gonna be talking about, AI because everybody's talking about ai, but particularly in the WordPress space.

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna lay my cards on the table. Matt, I'm a bit of a Luddite when it comes to ai. I haven't really explored it very much personally. So more or less, everything that I have to say comes third hand. But the tiny forays that I've made into it have really frustrated me. And I found more or less nothing works.

So I was at a meetup in London the other day, and I, was sitting at the front and I said to the audience, I tried four things the other day, on ai, how many of them do you think worked? And the response came back, all four. And I was like, no, it was none. None of the things that I tried worked absolutely nothing that I tried, worked.

And so that tells me a, that I don't ask it the right things because I'm sure that the basic stuff that I was asking is in the realms of ai. but BI haven't really played with it enough to, learn that I was making those mistakes. You, on the other hand, you've taken all your, you've rolled up your trousers, you've jumped in the lake, and, it seems that you are like a real addict.

Now. You're like pro, super pro AI person.

[00:14:27] Matt Medeiros: Well, Nathan, what you've forgotten is I sold cars for a lot of my life and I'm pretty good at selling the story.

[00:14:34] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So many, hours of banging your head against the wall, eh?

[00:14:39] Matt Medeiros: I'm just a, what I would say, just a few paces ahead of you on, on this learning curve. but yes, I recently, put out a, an app called Ag, an app. Let's, call what it is. It's an RSS reader slash aggregator. You can find [email protected]. And it was just a way for me to exercise the idea of building something with AI and, largely solving a problem that I have every day, which is how do I keep up with all the WordPress news?

but my way, I have, I'm gonna forget the name of the app that I have on my phone. net something that I use as an RSS reader, and it scoops up everything. And I have my newsletters and I have obviously my Slack channels. and, that keeps a, pulse on things for me.

And I was like, I, there's some things I want to do. I want to be able to summarize these things quickly. I want to have like little, social media messages automatically made for me for every new article so I can share these out. And then I started building it, and we can break down how I did that, but that's how it was born.

It took. 40 ish hours up until this point to do what I did. lots of

[00:15:57] Nathan Wrigley: okay. 40

[00:15:58] Matt Medeiros: lots of experimenting.

[00:15:59] Nathan Wrigley: the 40 hours include the failing?

[00:16:02] Matt Medeiros: Oh yeah.

[00:16:02] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, that's not as bad. I would've thought it would've been a lot more than that. But having, but I know that you just said a minute ago that you're a good storyteller and sold cars and you can put a spin on all of that. It does seem though, from everything that I've seen and the tenor of your language, it does seem that this has captured you.

It's not you wouldn't have got to hour 40 if it was pure frustration. I'm presuming that, an hour two, an hour six and hour 10 or whatever, there were moments of, whoa, look what I just did.

[00:16:31] Matt Medeiros: Yeah. so here's the biggest thing for me, and I hope, and I'm sure you can relate to this too, with your stint with Drupal, way back in the day, CCK and views and all this stuff. those moments were very powerful for me. When I installed my first PHP Nuke bulletin board, I was like, whoa, this is awesome.

Like I put a lamp before I even knew the terminology, I put a lamp stack together. I installed PHP bulletin board, I access it through a browser on another computer. this is amazing.

[00:17:04] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:17:05] Matt Medeiros: Poking holes in the firewall and accessing it, from your, home server. this was amazing stuff. And then you learn Drupal and the web and the technology and CC km views makes you feel like a PHP developer and you're like, wow, this is awesome.

Fast forward WordPress, you have those same shining moments, 2008, 2009, where you're like, I'm solving problems for clients. I'm charging money, I'm building a business. This AI stuff, it's like that same moment in time where it's wow, I just built this app and it becomes this thing that you just constantly want to do.

I. I will say a little bit of I am not a gambler, but it feels like a little bit of gambling because every time you send it the prompt, you're like, is it gonna get it? Is it gonna

[00:17:49] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah,

[00:17:49] Matt Medeiros: it gets it and you're like, yes.

[00:17:51] Nathan Wrigley: Or at least it looks like it. Got it.

[00:17:54] Matt Medeiros: It looks like I got it. So it feels like it's fun right now.

and, that's, what I'm, that's why I'm liking it. But lemme just ask you this question. With your failed attempts, were you doing those in chat GPT or like a vanilla sort? I'll call it vanilla AI

[00:18:12] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, I was, doing it in chat, GPT, so a client on the Mac for chat, GPT, and I was asking it discreet questions, but my discreet questions were so confined and constrained that I presumed that it was to do with getting a loop and connecting two different custom post types and, comparing one against the other.

It was the kind of thing which any decent developer, I think would knock off with their eyes closed. And so I thought that this would be fairly possible. No, it, really wasn't. It took many attempts. I've subsequently learned from, somebody in the WordPress space, Tim Nash actually, that if you ask it and you literally appended at the end, can you make the output, used WordPress coding standards that immediately will make it more or less better.

and I didn't know that, but, so everything that I. Got was wrong, but I wasn't using any kind of, environment or setup. I was literally asking the pure, chat, GPT and, so maybe there's a mistake that I made there.

[00:19:12] Matt Medeiros: Yeah. Were you at, were you, was your intent to build it as like a proper plugin?

[00:19:17] Nathan Wrigley: But first of all, I just wanted to, see what the app would be if the simple things, and I've tried it at various different points and it has succeeded, but in those cases it was something so very, minor. but yeah, I haven't set up the development environment and everybody, at the minute seems to be talking about this thing called Cursor.

I don't really even know what that means. But, the principle being that there's, an environment, there's a setup, there's tools that you can get that are better and superior and advancing at a faster pace. I wasn't using any of that. Can I just ask you a question? This is a weird question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.

Do you feel in relationship with this thing. Do you feel like when you sit down and ask it these questions, do you feel disappointment in it when it doesn't give you something back? And do you feel like happiness for it and for you and is there some sort of, and I that's weird, I know I don't mean relationship, but do you, are you drawn to it when you sit down?

Are you some more ai smashing, let's crack on. This is exciting.

[00:20:15] Matt Medeiros: it is, like back to that gambling thing or when I was younger, like video games, when I played, I don't know, whatever your, favorite video game, back in the day where you were like, you have to clear the map. You have to hit all the points and get the trophy or whatever.

That's what it feels like. I don't feel, I think what maybe you're saying is like an do I feel like I'm, because I've heard this before where people sit down and it's oh, I talk to Chachi BT all day. It's like my, it's like my buddy. I, don't feel that, but it's, wanting that output, to, for make, to make me feel like, all right, this is gonna get done.

and I'll tell you why. Because as somebody who, so the app that I built, pulse, wp, it is React, right? This is not WordPress. This is not PHP. That's not, it's largely react in JavaScript, which I know. 0%,

[00:21:07] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:08] Matt Medeiros: about, I know a little bit more now, which you know, is great. This is a great side effect of playing with this stuff, is you do get to learn APIs and routes and how, react is structured and pulling in components and libraries and you really start to learn like the fundamentals.

Just like when you were hacking away at a WordPress site 15 years ago, you are learning what this stuff does. Now I'm doing the same thing at a faster pace. but because I know nothing, I rely 100% on the agent to build the thing, right? So what that means is, and why this feels like a video game slash like a slot machine that you pull the handle down on is because it take, it actually takes time.

So if you're asking it to build something complex, you ask it and then you wait and you stare at the screen and you go, and I'm just waiting for it to finish. And I've found myself now when I was really like deep into building that app. Launching a prompt over here in one tab, sending another prompt in another tab, asking it to think ahead about the next feature that I was working on.

So it's this thing where you're just waiting for the output. It's time consuming and it feels like, I guess I'll call it work because you're just waiting for this thing to do the task and you have no say. And if it fails, which it does, very often you have to then go back and say, do it again. But now think about it this way.

And then wait for that output to finish. And you have to wait to see if you're getting the goal that you're after. And it does feel like little levels in a video game, can I beat this level today? And that's the connection that I have with it because again, it's making me feel powerful.

People are seeing these features. I'm shipping air quotes features that makes me feel like a proper developer.

[00:22:59] Nathan Wrigley: So I was gonna ask that, that was gonna be another question, and it was, and, I think you've just answered it because when you said that you did air quotes, your fingers went up and you did air quotes. Did who, built this basically is my question. Did you build it or did something else build it?

[00:23:14] Matt Medeiros: Something else built it.

I had the idea.

[00:23:17] Nathan Wrigley: how like the, people like me with no coding, capabilities whatsoever, I would feel that compulsion as well. I, would fall over myself to, to explain, look, I didn't do this. It was chat, GPT, or whatever it may be, the, latest thing. But it's curious how well you, did do it, but you did it with the assistance of some other thing.

But it definitely couldn't have been done without you, or I suppose without, so it's a a team effort almost. It's weird.

[00:23:47] Matt Medeiros: yeah. And I would fast track the, to fast track the concept of. if you open up your favorite social media platform, if you have one, and you look at, the, discourse around AI right now, it's either this thing is replacing all of us or this thing is replacing none of us.

like everything else in, in my life anyway, I see it somewhere in the middle and, yeah. It's replacing half of us. See you later. One of one outta two of us on this

[00:24:18] Nathan Wrigley: Either that or half. Half literally of us. One half of me and one half of you.

[00:24:25] Matt Medeiros: and, these, tools are great. They do fast track it, but you, I think what it'll do is eventually, will we need an app store?

when you look at it from, I guess maybe either a dystopian point of view is will you need an app store? If you can just go on your iPhone, which is now somehow powered by Apple Intelligence, 'cause the new colorful rainbow ring around my phone turns on instead of the little Siri Circle anymore.

And will I just turn to my iPhone and say, give me an RSS app that follows just the WordPress news and it makes basically what I made with Pulse and just installs it on my phone. And I pay Apple like nine bucks a month for Apple Intelligence to maintain that app. What does that do to the landscape? But then also as a developer, what does it do for humanity?

do the developers go away in the ai? So there is all of these thoughts that are going through my mind as I'm building this stuff. I think it'll get better, but I don't think it's replacing all

[00:25:32] Nathan Wrigley: I, think it's interesting because, I think there's always, I really don't know. I can't distill it, but I, have an equal amount of trepidation. I. As I do excitement. And so the rainbows are very, close to the dark black clouds. and the bit of me, which worries is that the industry that we are in is full of very, nice people who have spent an age getting good at let's say, plugin development or what have you.

And it does seem to me that at the rate the development of the AI is moving, that a lot of that might be possible with a voice command. Like obviously if you build something complex, like a complex, I don't know, an LMS or something, I'm sure that's probably out of reach at the moment. You'd have to have all the different parts.

But if you've got a plugin, which is very successful in just doing one or two simple things, that concerns me a little bit. So that's a bit of a dark cloud. However, the, sort of rainbow side of that is, we're here to democratize publishing. And if anybody can speak into their phone and achieve the thing that they've asked, that's fabulous.

And, the boundaries just get pushed further of what's possible, which is great. Here's the other weird thing which never really gets into my head when I'm thinking about it, is I don't know if it's sustainable, in terms of, I, I dunno if the economic models keeping these LLMs going is something that can be sustained.

It seems like there are some dark clouds gathering there where the amount of energy that's being used and the amount of dollars being spent just, is being kept to get, kept alive on a venture capital, venture capital promise that something around the corner is gonna flip the economic argument and all of a sudden we're gonna start shelling out great amounts of cash Yeah. Yeah. I wrote about this, on, my resume site crafted by Matt, and it is, One of the things I think can, that's gonna hold this whole industry back are these industry leaders themselves. Because how many times have we seen and heard this story before, right? You must jump on this bandwagon. This is going to change everything.

[00:27:39] Matt Medeiros: This is the technology of the future. And everything looked like ai every time that thing was happening, whatever that was. NFTs, cryptocurrency, like all these different type, the internet, books are going to go away. Self-driving cars, cell phone, like all of these technology points have always said that kind of thing.

And it's a little true, but then it's like you scale back 60% of that and then you scale out the other 40% over two decades. 'cause that's how long it takes for people to catch up. Like people still don't have websites, right? we thought that was gonna be done and all over with 20 years ago. so I think the biggest thing holding these that will hold us back.

I'll say it is like the corporate greed, right? We need to be the biggest, the best. We need all of it, and we need trillions of dollars to do it, right? Oh, how much are you making? Zero. In fact, we're losing trillions of dollars while we're asking you for more trillions

[00:28:35] Nathan Wrigley: and we're pumping a load of carbon into the atmosphere and, all of that kind of stuff. The interesting thing here though, let's just use, because I said it, self-driving cars, the what you get, if that technology comes to fruition, you get self-driving cars, you get cars that can drive themselves.

However, if the ai, if the a GI, the artificial general intelligence comes about, then you basically solve more or less everything. you invent a load of other problems, but it, there isn't just like one solution. It's like you just give a computer or a device or something. can you invent me a new game that nobody's ever played before?

That'd be really interesting for under five year olds. just, yeah, sure. Try this one. Oh yeah, that's really good. or do you fancy just getting rid of cancer for me? Yeah. Alright. That's fine. so the promise here that they, again, the rainbows and the unicorns and all that is so vast that I think this one maybe differs slightly and it wouldn't surprise me if the spending cycle keeps going, for a little while longer, but I, can't see it going on forever.

That promise of a GI seems to be no closer today than it was two years ago. But the output of the LLMs is, to my mind anyway, it makes you think that there's intelligence there, but it's not really.

[00:29:55] Matt Medeiros: Yeah. There is, I don't know if they're testing fire alarms in my building right now.

[00:30:01] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, there was something. I can hear something, but it's okay. Keep going. I

[00:30:04] Matt Medeiros: all things are going wrong. the, you're wearing a pair of glasses. I'm gonna take you down one of my, crazy conspiracy theories. with ai. You're wearing a pair of glasses and I wrote about this.

I said, look at some point, the hardware, the technology, the software is gonna get so optimized that you'll have an LLM on your pair of glasses. You'll walk into a car dealership one day if you're still buying cars, and the sales person is gonna look at you and go, the car is $35,000. And that's my best price.

Your glasses will analyze that and prompt you in your lens to say, that's not the best price, and here's how you should reply. And it, what I, what it will move to is like this zero sum game for a world where, you know, lack of, knowledge, lack of education, lack of information allowed people to capitalize off of swaths of.

Of humans, right? I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but what it is, it's gonna empower people. I hope to look at that sales deal, buying a house, looking at a legal contract, talking to your doctor and feeding you instant information that betters your situation so that competing negotiation or that lawyer who's sign the contract, it's the best thing for you.

And you look at the contract and your glasses say, this is not the best thing for me. It looks like I get screwed in year two. Like, how does that happen? And it's going to allow people hopefully, to have that slight advantage that they didn't have before. And, the dystopian side, is going to be, if you don't have the best and the fastest LLM in your glasses, you lose.

And by the way, the best and the fastest LLM in your glasses, it costs $5,000 a month.

[00:32:01] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I think the dystopian runs really parallel to the, like the rainbows and unicorns. I think the two things, it's so difficult for me to differentiate the two at the moment. A lot of the positive seems like the negative and vice versa. One thing that is interesting though is that I came to the same intuition and I dunno if you meant glasses as a, as that's where you think the technology will land, but that is where I'm coming down now.

I really do think, we'll, it will be in glasses and I know we had that Google glass debacle a few years ago where the, the promise was so great and the delivery was so small. I think that was held back by the kind of technology available at the time. But it does seem like the thing on your head.

That nobody really cares about. it doesn't have to have forward facing cameras, but it's got a screen and you can push, things onto that screen. I think augmented reality will become hot again once the glasses come. But I think the AI mixing in with the glasses is the perfect vehicle.

imagine, the things that you could do, if the, if instead of the computer and the screen, if it was just the pair of glasses that you take on and, put off again. I think Yeah, we're, and we're not that far away, right? We all have phones in our pockets, right? So we can achieve that. let's not scare off the listener too much. Let's talk about the tools, right? How did I achieve some of this stuff? And let's talk about maybe some of the points where, you were having some challenges.

[00:33:26] Matt Medeiros: What did your workflow look like? You were testing it out in chat, GPT, and just like copy and pasting into a snippet plugin

[00:33:32] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. basically something like that or into a sort of functions dot php file. And like I said, I was trying to do something really simple, but, my goal was just to see if I could get things done in under two minutes. In other words, how would a, how would an inexperienced WordPress user manage with this?

And the reason I said it's in, the whole thing collapsed is because for an inexperienced WordPress user, it was an end game. It was like, this should work, but no, it's destroyed my site. And that's what it did. It took the site to the white screen of death kind of thing. And I got the email notification.

So I thought, okay, that's interesting. If I was a novice coming into the WordPress space, it would, ruin my expectations of what WordPress could do. But, let's flip that round again and ask you why, this particular topic, why Pulse wp, I'll just give the URL again, pulse. WP cc, you, said you were scratching your own itch, but tell us why and

[00:34:25] Matt Medeiros: Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, I wanted a way to feed, yeah, that news and information for WordPress, to the way that I need to consume it, which is, watch everything, summarize it, so that I can quickly scan it, and then go into the full article or, whatever it might be that I'm watching for.

and then quickly generate social media because I, social media, posts, because I also share other people's content. So I wanted a tool that quickly allowed me to. Watch all the stuff, summarize it so I can quickly jump into the bullet points that I need to know about and then, help me share it on social media because it's important to me.

like you, I started, I, had pneumonia, so maybe not like you, but I had pneumonia a few months after you and I met in, Portland, and I was just laying on the couch, couldn't really do anything, and I was like, let me get into this AI coding thing. And I started to hit the limits of, Claude at the time that's what I was using.

And he would just tell me like, Hey, you're trying to build this piece of software or whatever, come back tomorrow. literally it would say, come

[00:35:32] Nathan Wrigley: Oh really?

[00:35:33] Matt Medeiros: tomorrow, because you've ran, you've run out of tokens. And I'm and I go back to that gamification, that gambling thing.

wait a minute. I'm like halfway through this idea. I need to continue to build it. And that's what, and then I started, what I started doing is. I would have half the idea with chat GPT and use the credits over there and then bring, and I would say, Hey, take this little idea of this little feature.

Write the code for it, but then give me a prompt that explains how to build that code. Because I wanted Claude to build it. So then I would do a lot of ideation on chat GPT to save credits and then make it write me a prompt. And then I would paste that into, Claude. And that helped optimize the stack a little bit.

And eventually, and we can get into this, eventually, I started to uncover. The cursor, app, bolt New, which is a fantastic, AI app. And then what I eventually built Pulse WP on is an app called rept, which I like to say is like the Elementor of AI coding. think about everything encompassed, that you need because, pulse is, it's JavaScript, it's, the React app framework.

It's a database, it's a user authentication system. it is the hosting provider. it does a lot. And once you start getting into this space, you realize, oh, it's not just the website that you need or that front end component. You need the database. You need user authentication. User authentication is huge.

and I should say that all of this built me a better, A better recognition for WordPress, right? Like I look at WordPress now and you might go, oh, that thing's 20 years old. It's old and monolithic. Yeah, but it's done.

[00:37:29] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:37:30] Matt Medeiros: It's done. I can pick this up and put it on a website and thousands of humans care for it versus me on my couch and chat GPT, and it's just me and him building this thing and nobody else is caring for it.

Nobody else is giving me ideas. It's a stark difference from building code by yourself without any knowledge versus you look at WordPress now and you go, wow, 20 years and thousands of people have touched this and this is why it's

[00:37:57] Nathan Wrigley: can I ask you a question? So you mentioned a variety of tools there. So you chat, GPT, clawed, you mentioned, rept and you mentioned Bolt. what, so I think it's fair to

[00:38:08] Matt Medeiros: How did I make that

[00:38:08] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. And also what is the path? What, why go to Bolt? What does Bolt do that's different from Rep? And what does REP do that's different from chat GPT?

So yeah, talk us through the journey.

[00:38:19] Matt Medeiros: Yeah, I'm gonna, put a video together on this as well, comparing the, two, platforms. But here's my take on it, right? I think you can, if you are somebody who's a developer and you are very, and you're, you even consider yourself, I'm halfway there. I think I'm a decent developer. Even if you consider yourself, ah, I'm not the best, but I'm just a beginner.

I think a great way to leverage AI now is to use something like Cursor. if code looking at Code doesn't scare you, I would say use Cursor. because it's, a coding app. It's a fork of VS code, which is a, an app to help you code. and it has all the things you need to accelerate your coding abilities.

If you're somebody like me. There's these two other apps, and I'm sure there's others. These are just the two that I've e explored, bolt and Rept, and you go to Bolt New is the website for the AI stuff. And I really even had, haven't had the time to explore these guys, too deep, guys and gals I should say.

but they actually have an open source component of Bolt, which you can run locally. I haven't even touched that yet, but that's just like in my mind, like this is why I like these, this team, because they have that. and I do want to explore it more, but bolt.new, you just go to the, you go to the site, you throw it, the idea, and it builds it beautifully.

[00:39:44] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So what, when, hang on, wait, You say you throw at the idea like, how complex do you think you could actually make that idea?

[00:39:50] Matt Medeiros: And this is where the things fall, fall down a little bit. So when I started, once I got off of, using vanilla. Clawed to build my idea, I went to Cursor because I heard that was a thing and what Cursor gave me was VS code, which I've never touched in my life. No idea. the last time I used a code editor was Notepad Plus.

Plus when I was running my WordPress agency, going back to 2006, right? That was the last time I've looked at code like this and it was very powerful, but I, it wasn't guiding me at all. Like it, you have to be a developer to use it. And if I was a developer, cursor looks amazing 'cause you already know the code and it's just gonna accelerate that.

And I was. Fumbling around with it. I was, I was at the time, when I first started, I was like, give myself a new challenge. Learn the CloudFlare infrastructure hosting, right? Like I heard Cloudflare's better than AWS for some of this stuff. I used to sell managed WordPress sites for Pagely and we used AWS So I didn't know my way around AWS but I was like, eh, lemme try this CloudFlare thing.

So I was trying to like pipe all these things together, run CloudFlare pages, CloudFlare functions, CloudFlare databases, and I'm trying to tie all this stuff in together. Impossible. Okay. And then I found, bolt by just hunting around on YouTube and, Reddit and stuff like that. And Bolt will do really good at straightforward requests.

Like you can ask it to make a user login system, but at the time when I started this, it would create it. But it would be just like a form, right? There was no security logic behind it. It would show you a login page, you could log in, but you could, there was no like WordPress authentication. Like it wasn't checking your password.

Was that strong enough? Is there a reset? I need to change my password. Didn't have any of that function. what it did integrate with at the time was a hosting company, called Netlify. those of you listening probably know about that. So what you could do is ask Bolt, build my app, and then you could click deploy and send it to Netlify and it would host the static pages that you built.

And it worked. but there was no database, which then led me down the path of I need to figure out how to connect up a database. And I found another platform called Super Base, SUPA

[00:42:29] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:30] Matt Medeiros: Yeah. And it is a hosted database platform. And it does a ton of things besides just databases does file storage, but it also does user authentication, because that's a huge thing, user authentication.

Another thing we take advantage of, or take advantage for in WordPress is the whole like stack of user authentication is already there. So superb base allows you to do that. So I started stringing things together and I'm debugging, like build scripts and deployments, with Bolt and Netlify and now super base.

And then I had to learn to tie in GitHub to all of this stuff so that I could version control it. It's very difficult to keep it all going and eventually you hit this limit of bolt where it's just it's not working, and here's a pro tip for any of these AI platforms. If it can't get it in three or four tries, it's not gonna get it.

[00:43:31] Nathan Wrigley: give up.

[00:43:33] Matt Medeiros: Just give up, unlike that feature set. So what that led me to do was I would, build, I would ask all these complex things, do this, all in one big prompt, build it for me, make it do this, and then move this button over there and it would just crumble.

So I had to learn and then I would delete the whole app and start again.

So then I would learn to take it slower. Here's the goal at the start, build it out. And then I knew the features in my head, but I wasn't telling Bolt to do it. And I would do it step by step. Now build this feature, let's test that feature. Okay, great, that worked. Let's build this feature. Let's test it.

Okay. Do the work. All of the things you normally do in like real development, because a real developer isn't taking all those ideas and slamming it all out into his or her code editor right there. It's all done methodically. So I had to do that and I'll fast track it here. Bolt now has a super base integration,

[00:44:31] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, neat. Okay.

[00:44:33] Matt Medeiros: So now it'll create the database for you. You can host it on Netlify, you'll still have to connect it up to GitHub, to do like deployments and stuff like that. but it works. And then I found Repli and you can think, like, I said before, you can think of Repla as like Elementor. It's all in one. So it has all the database, the hosting, the user authentication.

It's all built in and you're not having to, hunt around and go, okay, now I need to set up Netlify to look over here at GitHub. And Superb Base has to know about superb base. It just has all of its database and hosting all built into

[00:45:10] Nathan Wrigley: So is rep a replicate? Is that your current Nirvana thing, that's where you're at the

[00:45:17] Matt Medeiros: That's what Pulse, wp. That's what Pulse WP is built on. But what I've found is what I will do, 'cause you're still faced with the same no matter what, if you're, running Vanilla Chat, GPT, your own account, if you're running Bolt or you're running Rept, you're still faced with the same, issue, which is conversations get really complex, as you extend it and keep working it, and then just starts to fail and give you a bunch of slop, or it gets costly and you run outta tokens, right?

So you, you start to, rep has a different billing system, but we can talk about that later. But you, it still costs you money and you still run out of that. So if you're not, if you're, not, strategic about how you're building your app, then it can start to cost you money and, or run out of credits altogether.

but my favorite way of doing this is ideate in a vanilla, chat, GPT. Then I bring it to Bolt and I say, build me this idea. I just let it, what Bolt is really good at is that MVP, what does it look like? Do I like the buttons over here? Do I like this feature function? And then if I'm real serious about it, I will ask Bolt to, once I get it to a kind of working level, I'll say, Hey, bolt, everything you know about this app, can you make me a, prompt that I'm going to place into another AI system?

It feels a little bit like cheating,

[00:46:42] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah.

[00:46:44] Matt Medeiros: but it's Hey, you did a really good job over here, but you know what? I'm not gonna stick with you, but tell me everything you can do and I'm gonna bring it over into rep it and then I'll start to build in a rept.

[00:46:52] Nathan Wrigley: It is kinda like when you go into a store and look at a, an item and then in the store buy it from Amazon on your

[00:46:59] Matt Medeiros: Correct. That's a hundred percent. That's a hundred percent. but for whatever reason, and this is stuff that I still need to explore, bolt does a fantastic job with UI and the design, and Repli is just. Terrible.

[00:47:17] Nathan Wrigley: Interesting.

[00:47:18] Matt Medeiros: Like, Pulse is not a very good looking website to look at. It does the job. It's very stark black and white, and even when I say add more color or do more, rept doesn't, it doesn't do any of that creative stuff, but Bolt does a really, good job of it.

And their apps look a way, look way better. And for whatever reason, maybe their LLMs are just trained better. Like when you say improve, design, bolt does a really good job of improving design, whereas Rep just looks at you.

[00:47:49] Nathan Wrigley: that's really fascinating though, because there's gotta be something in that. There has to be something in, in, the LLM if you're using the same language, but it, your exp or, your expectations are differently met, you prefer the way that looks. but, okay.

So gi, given all of this in this journey, and the fact that the three years ago, if I suggested no, maybe three years, yeah. Three I, let's go three years. If I said any of this to you. your three years ago self would say, my, my future self is lying. This cannot be done. That will never be possible. And yet here we are.

You've, achieved something. You've built a you've built an app that, that there's no way that you could have pulled off. And so the technology has gone from, that's a lie that cannot be done to, I've now done it. So that's three years. If we, like three years from now, surely that's gonna be a bit exponential.

Let's assume that the, venture capitalists don't run out of money and they're still very excited and all of that. Then surely this is just gonna get easier and easier. Your expectations will go up. Your demands of the prompts will go up. You, the output will get better and better. God, it's, it sounds like utopia, coding utopia.

[00:49:07] Matt Medeiros: Three years ago, if you would've said that to me, I would've called the cops on you. a year ago, I would've said, I don't think this, yeah, not me. But now it's just okay, kind of me. And, this is, for all of the naysayers out there, I think the reality is the, missing links right now are speed.

'cause this stuff takes time. it's not just time of like testing, but if you're somebody like me asking it to build robust apps, you literally have to wait for the code to finish, right? this is a waiting game. So this, I'm totally dead serious. Like, when you start getting into something that's, a little bit more robust, I'll, send the prompt and then switch to tabs and go back to work and let it finish.

And then if you have to, if it, if you go back to that tab and it's still not working. You gotta run it again,

[00:50:00] Nathan Wrigley: Oh.

[00:50:02] Matt Medeiros: So it's okay, lemme go back to work. Oh, did you finish over here? but if you're somebody who's a developer, you know what you have to solve. I don't. So I just have to constantly keep prompting this thing.

But yeah, three years from now, what'll happen, and I think we're starting to see it now, are these agents, which are, for lack of a better word, these little robots that are supposed to be actively or passively working on this stuff for you. And that's the next sort of shoe to drop where I can build the app and then tell the agent, Hey, every day, just make sure I don't have any security flaws in pulse.

Or if there's an update to react, or JavaScript, make sure you update it to the latest packages for me. And you know what? Every day think of a new idea and send it to me. Message me and see if I like that idea. And if I like it, we'll add it. To Pulse. rept does that. As you move along with Repli, it'll prompt you and say, Hey, did, do you like, okay, did that work?

The thing that you just asked me to do? Does it work? If so, I've got these three ideas that I think we can do next. And you're just looking at it going, oh my God, like this thing is thinking ahead. built, yeah. the, exchange of finances that it's cogs a tick in there. It's thinking, how can I get you to spend more tokens tomorrow,

[00:51:23] Nathan Wrigley: but it's interesting 'cause I foresee a future then, but, and I didn't know this until we had this conversation, but it, feels to me that we are gonna have a future in which certain ais are gonna meet the needs of a certain niche of people.

So in the example that you gave come to, I think you said Bolt, if you want it to look nice, so we're the nice looking ai, we'll give you a UI that looks beautiful, or they might be a WordPress version, or a Drupal version, or a whatever. we are really good at putting webpages together, or we are really good if you're, into travel, we've got the database of all the travel agents and flights and blah, blah, blah, all of that.

Maybe that's the way it's gonna go. And you'll go to a different AI. For a different thing, and then, the, and then the sun will never stop shining and we'll all be incredibly happy forever and ever after. And, of course, we'll, never, ever, none of us will ever need to work again.

[00:52:17] Matt Medeiros: Yeah. So, how do you think this all competes, or how does WordPress compete with this in, your eyes? I look at it as we're gonna, we could see 10, 15% of that market share drop where people go, I'm just gonna build it. I'm just gonna build it over here and rep it. Forget WordPress. how do you see WordPress sustaining through this?

[00:52:38] Nathan Wrigley: I, think my, gut reaction at the moment is that it's gonna be a really tough time for developers. I think people are gonna experiment more and more with ai, and given that the WordPress code base is completely, visible to all ai, it can consume it. So I'm imagining a scenario where a lot of simple tasks that might have been sent to your developer. Now you'll just ask your 16-year-old son, have you got, this AI stuff? I've got a website and I've got this problem with it. Can you just have a look at this for me? Just try it out on your ai 'cause you are doing computers at school, that kind of thing. I think it's gonna potentially eat into that market, but equally, maybe the expectations will go higher.

So we'll all expect more from our WordPress website because the AI agents are helping us. So it's, a time of change for sure. And I think it probably is a time to, to reevaluate you, what you're doing. I was speaking to somebody yesterday, very intelligent person who basically was, and they're in the WordPress space, so it's really, on message they were saying that really it's time to get into ai.

If you don't start using it now, there will be people a year from now who are so good at it that they've made themselves like that top tier and they will be the elite developers. And even though they might not have a development background, if they do have a development background, they'll be, elite Plus.

so I think it is definitely a time of change. yeah.

[00:54:12] Matt Medeiros: One really cool thing, it's not really an aside, but it's an aside, like when you're thinking use case and even thinking outside of our little tech bubble, My, so another great thing about Bolt is it is pretty quick, and like I said, the UI are really nice, and where I found it to be really fun, with kids, is doing homework, right with my kids, right?

So my, first grade son, my middle son, they come home, they have their homework, there's whatever, 12 words that they're working on, for the week or whatever the homework is, and, it's just, you're, we're still writing on paper, right? the homework comes home, we're still using a pencil or a crayon, right?

To do this stuff. trying to get him in the, in a different mindset to learn these words. I was like, Hey man, how about we build a little game and if you can guess the right words, we'll have a dinosaur pop up with a little sound effect. And he was like, yeah, let's build it. So I just literally take a picture, I'm grabbing my phone, take a picture, of his homework, and I say.

and I paste it into, or I, upload it to, to bolt and I say, grab these 12 words. I, was so lazy, Nathan. I didn't even write the words. I took a picture and I said, look at these words and make me a game, a guessing game. for, my, seven, 6-year-old son to, guess these words. If he gets it right, it makes a little ding sound.

If he gets it wrong, it makes a little wrong sound. and he has to guess the missing letter. And if he gets whatever I said, 80% of it, right? We'll have, confetti and a dinosaur show up at the end, right? Just a little fun game for him to play with. And it built it in whatever, two minutes. And in two minutes I had a little video game for him to play, and then we added to it.

So I said, okay, this video game is great. Let's make a flashcards and. It'll show the word for one second and then go away. And then you'll have four random four words that are random and the right word that my son has to pick from A, B, C, or D. And then it built that and we added to the video game, little menu system at the beginning and he could pick which game we could play.

And then I started thinking to myself like, oh, I could extend this. I could make this a weekly thing, I could have a login, a top score chart. I could do this with all of his brothers. 'cause we got two other boys. And I was just like, my mind is just like racing with the, like the good opportunities.

[00:56:45] Nathan Wrigley: what? It's really interesting of everything that we've talked about over the last 50 minutes or so. The most profound bit is that

because, okay. That was impossibly complicated until really recently. But also you've, there is no barrier to entry for a child to do that. So you've a game that would've been the purview of a fairly seasoned developer.

And that card game that you've just described, I imagine would've consumed a decent amount of a day. And you can imagine the cost of the equipment required and the cost of the, the, amount of time spent learning all of that. And now you can have a child with a phone and a camera and a microphone and they can build something like that.

And the reason it's profound is, not so much that it's possible, it's that it's in the hand of a generation of people who are gonna grow up and that will be normal. And the idea that you would do anything other than ask an AI to assist you through this problem will be. Like crazy, why wouldn't I do that?

in the same way that I, now rely on things that my parents just, it's beyond them. They've reached that point where certain technologies can't be used. Like the mobile phone is a real enigma to them. But for me, it's just so straightforward and that's gonna be the case. old Comos like me, I don't have that relationship with it, and I probably never will.

But the generation coming up, if they can just get a handy thing for every problem that arises in life, whatever it is. I don't know. Build me an, I know I've just come out of a tube station in an unfamiliar city. Can you, design me an app just to take me on the most interesting route possible around this city, take in some sites, and then give me a description of what I should be eating and how many calories it's got in it, and then send me to a decent hotel at the end.

And whilst you're at it, will you just book it for me? I imagine all of that's possible with Google Maps, actually, now that I say it, but the point being, you can just speak the interface is your voice, and that's remarkable.

[00:59:02] Matt Medeiros: There. I want to add in a, couple other tools here, that I've, used and I think, another great way that instead of us looking at it like, oh my God, WordPress is doomed. I think there's, I think there's some extensions that, that AI can help us with. So another tool that I use, especially with my, children, is this tool called Whisper Flow.

I don't know if you've heard of it. it's called WI, it's Whisper, W-I-S-P-R, flow, whisper Flow. And it's, you turn it on, I just turned it on. There's a little button you click and you just speak and it takes your words and it puts it into text. It's very simple, but the key factor of Whisper, I'm sure there's other tools that do this.

This's just the one that I found is it will clean up. Your garbage vocabulary and all your filler words, just like we do with D Script. So if I turn it on and I go into Bolt or my app, my, chat, GPT, I can just talk to it and be like, Hey, so here's what I wanna build. I wanna build this app that does, like a video game for my 7-year-old to learn.

I can just talk ums and ahs and spacing and pauses, and then it just cleans it up and condenses it into the acute information that is needed, right? So it doesn't have all the ums and the ahs. And then you just pace that into the prompt and you hit enter and then it just takes your idea. So I was letting my son, do that, and it's just, 'cause he's seven, he's just talking and he's, dad, should I do this?

And Yep. Tell it what you want. And then it just cleans it up into like bullet point text all like the two minutes of him just babbling and rambling. And it just creates a prompt for 'em that's accurate. And then we just hit enter and it builds it. and I think, tools like that, just like you said, these are going to be so common, especially for, for our kids as they grow up to do this kind of thing.

But here's the extension, I think that's super valuable, that you can do with, that you can do with WordPress. Any system really, but think about databases of important information, tax information, real estate information, land, plots, I'm forgetting the word for it, right now. stuff that's impactful in your local community.

Information that's hard to get out from, just like your local government, like who has access to what? Water filtration, all this stuff that's stuck in millions of databases around the world. I'm building something now, with, gravity forms, API, rest API. So Gravity Forms has rest.

API. If you're using Gravity Forms to store information on your site, I can turn to Bolt and say, build me an app that analyzes the data in this gravity forms form. Here's the API keys. Go build me a table of that, that data. And by the way, analyze it with chat, GPT. Give me whatever, whatever you think is the, valuable information.

Draw a graph, do all this stuff, hit enter, boom. Like it accesses data. And WordPress is a great data store. that's my future vision of WordPress. When Matt, many years ago said, operating system of the web, I can see WordPress as like a future just database of content, open, accessible, build it your way, and then these AI tools can then go in and get this data and help us build robust solutions for whatever it is

[01:02:40] Nathan Wrigley: Gosh, it sounds okay, so I can't, allow us to finish on a positive note. bring it. Yeah, that's right. We have to bring it down a little bit. And, so I do wonder, what is gonna be our capacity to cope with boredom in the future and to, just to cope with not.

Being able to achieve something like that. if we're out of, if we're out of contact with our ai, if we go on holiday and the, I don't know, the, the internet breaks where we're living, we just have this but wait, no, I can't cope. I don't have AI plugged into my head kind of thing. That, the, that bit of life does worry me.

I, do, see that, there's something quite nice about being disconnected and the more that we connect, the more that we require to be connected and so on. So I, do think there are some guardrails that we need to build in. and I dunno how busy we want our heads to be in the future. it all sounds so great, doesn't it?

All, this amazing stuff that you can do and access to all this information all the time and the ability to wrangle it and manipulate it. Don't get me wrong, it really, sounds amazing. But, maybe, maybe at this point I will go and sit on my desert island and smash coconuts and drink the, drink the liquid that comes out them, and that'll be me.

[01:03:56] Matt Medeiros: Yeah. my last, point is, Like you said before, it have to get stuck in to AI and start learning it now. And I think that's all it that, I think that's all that means is to learn it and understand it. Like I don't think anyone needs to be a superhero with ai or you have to go out and build apps, but understand the fundamentals.

Like when you used to crack open WordPress, you looked at H-T-M-L-C-S-S and

and you just looked at it and you're like, I, get what this does. There's this functions PHP file. Like I think that's the same mindset you have to take with this. understand vanilla chat, GPT and Claude. Then understand like what these other like rep and bolt environments do and what the differences are, how to connect them up.

You don't have to be building something super robust and I think even that is a step ahead for yourself, in a couple of

[01:04:49] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. we'll see. that was a fascinating conversation, Matt. I really enjoyed that. Thank you. We'll come back in a couple of years time or we'll see if, see if there's anything left of humanity.

[01:05:00] Matt Medeiros: I am either gonna be in Hollywood or connected up to 16 machines. I don't know.

[01:05:05] Nathan Wrigley: good luck. Good luck in the year 2025. Thanks Matt.

[01:05:08] Matt Medeiros: Yes. Thank you, Nathan.

[01:05:10] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, that's all we've got time for this week. As I said at the top of the show, if you want to subscribe, head to wpbuilds.com/subscribe. If you want to find out about advertising, head to wpbuilds.com/advertise A bit like these three fine companies did.

The WP Builds podcast is brought to you today by GoDaddy Pro. GoDaddy Pro, the home of managed WordPress hosting that includes free domain. SSL, and 24 7 support. Bundle that with The Hub by GoDaddy Pro, to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients, and get 30% off new purchases. Find out more at go.me/wpbuilds.

We're also helped this week by Bluehost. Bluehost, redefine your web hosting experience with Bluehost Cloud. Managed WordPress hosting that comes with lightning fast websites, 100% network uptime, and 24 7 priority support. With Bluehost Cloud, the possibilities are out of this world. Experience it today at bluehost.com/cloud.

And helping us put on the show this week is also Omnisend. Omnisend, do you sell your stuff online? Then meet Omnisend, yes that Omnisend. The email and SMS tool that helps you make 73 bucks for every dollar spent. The one that's so good hits almost boring. Hate the excitement of rollercoaster sales? Prefer a steady line going up? Try Omnisend today

at omnissend.com.

And sincere thanks. Go out to GoDaddy Pro, bluehost and Omnisend for their ongoing support of the WP Builds podcast.

Okay, that really is all we've got time for. I will wrap it up there and say, join us 2:00 PM UK time on Monday, This Week in WordPress, the show where we have live discussion, chat, and comments from the WordPress audience. We will be there. Hopefully you'll join us.

If not, we'll be back next Thursday for a podcast episode, a bit like this. And so that's it. I'm gonna wind it up and say stay safe. Here comes some cheesy music. Have a good week. Bye-bye for now.