This Week in WordPress #298

[00:00:04] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this week in WordPress episode number 298 entitled it's a long 'un. It was recorded on Monday the 3rd of June, 2024. My name's Nathan Wrigley, and today I'm joined by three guests. I'm joined by Courtney Robertson, by Taco Verdonshot, and by Tammie Lister.

it's a WordPress podcast, so guess what we talk about WordPress among other things.

We talk about playground and how it's revolutionizing the way that it's possible to launch WordPress websites. It really is very profound.

We spend a lot of time talking about events, WordCamp Europe in particular.

A quick discussion about the Media Corp. What does that mean? Who's involved. How is it going to be assessed?

Courtney shares her screen and tells us all about the cogs going on in the background to make the WordPress project more sustainable.

There's a new course for absolute beginners to WordPress.

A new newsletter from Michelle Frechette.

We've also got a variety of other pieces about AI, sustainability, the environment, and a whole bunch more.

And it's all coming up next on this week in WordPress.

This episode of the WP Builds podcast is brought to you by GoDaddy Pro, the home of manage WordPress hosting that includes free domain, SSL, and 24 7 support. Bundle that with the hub by GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients and get 30% of new purchases. Find out more at go.me/wpuilds.

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Hello? Hello? Hello. It is this week in WordPress, episode number 298. I had a couple of weeks off because I did a summit and then I went to a wedding. and so I had a bit of time off, but I'm really glad to be back, one week before Word Camp Europe. So I'll quickly announce that right now. We're not doing a show next week because, I hopefully at that point will be on an airplane and that would be quite challenging, wouldn't it?

[00:02:40] Taco Verdonshot: I have done a webinar on an airplane, so it's not impossible. Okay. Okay. Not reliable. I'm not doing it. but that was Tacho. That's Tacho shot. How are you doing? All good here? Yeah. Good. Nice to have you with us again. tachos coming to us from Yos. Let's read out his bio. So Tacho version shots started as a developer at Yos, but quickly realized he preferred talking to people over coding.

Now as the head of relations, he spends his days juggling man, sorry, days managing yos customer support team, attending and organizing community events. He has a family life and likes to do a bit of volunteer work with the Finesse. As a wait, hang on with the finesse as a circus performer, I'm coming back to this.

I'll just finish it off. known for his blunt Dutch honesty. He's a guy who can tell you your SEO needs work and still leave you smiling. We'll be talking about SEO lately. sorry. Later, but go back. What the heck? What's that? The, what's the circus thing? What do you do? no. Strange circus acts from me.

although one of my hobbies is motor trials, which is belay on a motorcycle, so little bit. Oh, I'm on video. Oh, that's great. Can do. Isn't it wonderful? the variety of things that people get up to. thank you so much for joining us. Like I said, there's some really interesting news out of Google this week, which we'll get to at the end of the show.

[00:04:13] Nathan Wrigley: It's accidental news as well. And Google, I don't think has made a mistake like this one before, so stay tuned for that. But we're also joined by Courtney. Good. Good day. Hello, Courtney Robertson. How are you doing?

[00:04:24] Courtney Robertson: I am recovering from Word Camp Montclair this weekend. I have this nice little Montclair coffee mug at my side.

Nice. That hopefully does not ever run out of coffee. Oh, that would be magical. Yeah, that, really would be. It was a fantastic camp. I had so much fun there this weekend. Oh, that's lovely to hear. We'll be talking a little bit about Word camps in general, but also about Word Camp Europe specifically, 'cause that's coming up, next week.

[00:04:51] Nathan Wrigley: But, here we go. Courtney's bio, it's, quite a long one, but I'm gonna do it at like double speed. Here we go. By all means. Cut some of it out, it's fine. Oh, okay. Okay. Courtney Robertson. she is in the open source community. So that was the first two words in the last three. How does that Well done.

We're done. Lemme paraphrase. Courtney is an accomplished open source developer advocate at GoDaddy, dedicated WordPress training team, faculty member, co-founding board member of the WP Community Collective. she engages with audiences with her relatable insights on getting involved in supporting contributors in the open source community, staying true to her roots as a professional educator.

Courtney seamlessly merges her teaching expertise with her passion for technology, both on and off the stage. And we will find out more about that a little bit later as well. There's loads more to say, but I will, Exed at that point. But thank you for joining us, Courtney. Really appreciate it. And last but by no means least is Tammy Lister.

How are you, Tammy? I'm good, thank you. How are you? Yeah, Great. so I can do your one 'cause yours isn't a suitable size. Here we go. Tammy is a product creator who not only creates new products, but also supports those looking to navigate the evolving space that is WordPress core committer.

Thank you for that. currently sponsored to focus on the default theme task force. We're not working, fractionally with products. She works within Gilberg, focusing on the distribution problem. Her recharging comes from art, painting and creating in her studio space. And we'll make a little bit of space, see what I did there, later on to talk about a, website that you've got up.

We did actually mention it a few weeks ago, but my intuitions around it were not all that. were not all that clear. So I think better, better to redo it than have the butchered version from a couple of weeks ago. But there's our panel, we're gonna talk about the WordPress news, but before we do that, a few.

Boring bits of housekeeping, depending on where you're watching it. If you're at WP build.com/live, you've got a couple of options. You can either use the group chat thing on the right hand side, but you need to be logged into a Google account 'cause it's YouTube comments. Alternatively, if you don't wanna be logged into anything, there's a little black box at the top right hand side of the video.

It just says live chat. And if you click that's just related to the player that we're using. And so you just need to type your name in. You don't need to be logged into anything, and hopefully the comments will come onto the screen. but yeah, I think that's about it. The other thing I would ask, if you watch this and you enjoy it, please take a minute now.

go onto something like Twitter or X or whatever it may be, and, just share it. Wp builds.com/live. The more conversation, the more entertaining this whole thing becomes. By the way, in some fun news this week I was at this wedding, right? No computer in sight. Came back, my Facebook account was suspended, for no reason at all.

And so I went through the usual process and about 48 hours later they said, yeah, that was an error. so they reinstated it. However. It did make me think, as I often do, that we really do get ourselves into these silos, don't we? And things like Facebook are a pretty big silo and a lot of what I do ends up out there.

So it's really given me the heebie-jeebies about whether or not Facebook is the right place for me. I think mastered on is where I, my heart lies in all honesty these days. But anyway, there you go. That's apropos of nothing. we have been joined by Cameron. Thank you, Cameron. He says Cameron's in Australia.

Good evening from a chilly Victoria Harbor in Australia, where the temperature is barely above freezing. It's the only day of the year, Tammy, where we can say that in the UK it's warmer than it's in Australia. Yay. it is sunny though. In Germany says bigot. Hi there, bigot. Nice to see you. And Peter always brings us the full, weather report, which is exactly what we want, from Connecticut.

says, good morning. It is 22 degrees centigrade, 72 degrees Fahrenheit, heading up to 30. Oh, that's hot. 32 degrees centigrade under partly sunny skies. Really appreciate that as every week, Peter, it's makes my day. Marcus Burnett joining us. He's also tuning in after a fun week at weekend, I should say, at Word Camp Montclair.

Saw pictures of Courtney with Marcus representing the GoDaddy crew. Happy to see all the wonderful faces this morning. And I don't think I'm gonna read that one. No, that's a spam comments. It's probably from Twitch where all the spam comments come from, which is, Twitch. Sort it out is all I'm gonna say.

Okay, we'll leave that spam comment for now. All righty. What have we got for you this week? Let us share the screen. Firstly, this is us, WP builds. If you fancy subscribing to what we do, stick your email in that little box there and we will update you twice a week. Once when this show is finally produced.

We'll wrap it up today. I'll, make it a bit nicer with the audio and things like that. And then put it out tomorrow morning as a podcast and then we do a Thursday podcast, which we'll notify you about as well. But that's basically it. But you can see that we are sponsored by both GoDaddy Pro.

Thank you to GoDaddy Pro for, I think we're in the third year now of sponsorship and honestly it's remarkable. So thank you to GoDaddy for that and Blue Host as well. They've joined us fairly recently and I would like to make a big shout out to them also. And Tachos got all the grins going there 'cause, there's a thing there, isn't there? Blue Host? Oh, we're family. It's all family. We're family. Exactly. Yeah. And I'm really pleased that you've, you guys have come on board that really does help keep the show going. Okay. We've got something happening later this week. I'm chatting live. I'm doing a live webinar with this fine chat.

it's called Alex Standerford and he's also at GoDaddy, right? Alex? Is it? God he is, yes. He works in the managed WooCommerce division, doing all the WordPress things that are related to the WooCommerce offerings. Yeah, this is like a side gig of his, so it's nothing to do with that. He's come up with a plugin called Siren Affiliates, and I've seen him around.

He's, definitely putting the work in trying to promote it. He's been on lots of different podcasts and YouTube channels and things like that. But he's, he's come to me and we're gonna do a walkthrough of what his new plugin does. All I'll say is if you've got an intuition that you've seen. What an affiliate plugin can do.

Really don't imagine that's what he's built. 'cause it does look like it does a boat load of interesting new stuff. so he's gonna explain that to us. It's at 3:00 PM on the 5th of June, so come and join us for that. I am not gonna launch it 'cause it will kill my machine. Probably not that, that's what it's designed to do, but I just wanted to point out that I did a podcast episode over on the tavern.

The tavern is still alive by the way. It's just, it's just all, it's just you. We need to you front page. That's, do you know, it hadn't occurred to me. Yeah. That would be an interesting idea, wouldn't it? If my podcasts were. On the front page. yeah. 'cause that, I think now we're into week 12.

Woo. Week 12. Maybe just alter the logo and make it say, WP drn by WP Builds. Yeah. Nice. Yeah, I don't have the permission to, to do that. but I, Matt, if you're listening this for you, please, Matt, that would be lovely. Adam Zelensky is a Polish developer who a, little while ago, I'm gonna say like about 18 months or something like that, came up with this remarkable idea when he was playing around making, I think it was courses he said, and he wanted a seamless way.

To allow people to just drop into what he was hoping to teach people. And so he put his thinking cap on and, he knew about things like web assembly and he thought, can I make WordPress work in the browser? And I think his initial re thought was, this'll be interesting. Two weeks later his cracked it and now he is a full-time.

he's full-time. He's an optician and he is been put full-time on this project, man alive. If you've never used this, it is voodoo. You click a button and you have a WordPress website in your browser. But that's, so exciting. But what he has got planned for, this is just amazing. He's got this blueprints idea where anybody can drop in an entire.

Website, a complete website including plugins, themes, content, and you'll be able to click a button anywhere on the web and just get that website going in your own browser. It's gonna make it persistent so that it doesn't die when you kill the browser. It'll be there for weeks and weeks and then there's all the export options to take it up to your hosting provider of choice, play it, keep it persistent, and then finally when you're ready to ship it anyway.

I dunno if any of the three of you have played with this, but it is. I genuinely think it's voodoo. I, don't know what's going on, but it's absolutely magic. Yeah. Playground is, under, if you have recently seen Automatic launched a way to have a local-ish version of your site. I'll say Studio. So yes, that it is under studio.

[00:14:11] Courtney Robertson: It is also, currently in testing for accessibility as a, there is a plugin that you can enable part of playground to show, and it's in accessibility testing currently, so that snippets on Learns website, you could play with the code live and see what it does. and that might also roll itself into Docs and the dev blog areas as well, so that you can live code WordPress along with what you're learning.

And then there it is, you could quickly see what you've just learned and, yeah. I think when he built it, he, showed it to, he said this as much, he showed it to a few of his colleagues and they were a bit like, okay, that looks fun. And then I think the, penny dropped with quite a few people, including Matt, I believe State of the word.

[00:15:02] Taco Verdonshot: May have even mentioned it. I think he did. Matt Mullenweg. And and I just think it's profoundly interesting. What we're gonna be able to do on things like, just like mobile, you'll be able to just spin up a little temporary website on your Yeah. I dunno, it's maybe it's like a note taking app or something.

[00:15:19] Tammie Lister: Yeah. And it's one of those problems that a lot of local setups require setup to be able to do. anytime you're doing it, like the documentation is massive. contribution days is a big example. half of a contribution day is generally people setting up on a contribution day or over half, right?

and that's not being like aggressively flippant or anything that is literally what happens in the problem. So being able to have these easy spin up testing, prs, all these kind of options instantly lowers the barrier of entry to contribution, therefore. Enables more people to get the skills of contribution to then get the skills of creation.

And that's what really interested me with this is it opens up the kind of access to coding, access to design, access to being able to create themes and do things more to be able to then make things more. So it's, just, yeah, it's just really exciting to be able to do. and the more tools that we have that get people.

Creating faster the better. You reminded me of two things, Tammy, you mentioned pull requests in there. it's replaced what's on Gutenberg run. So if folks have been familiar with Gutenberg run in the past, you enter a PR number and off you are to an environment that now is being powered by the playground.

[00:16:38] Courtney Robertson: the other part is that when you see the release posts start trickling out for six six, I've worked with Adam on creating a custom link that will already have, dummy content. So the theme unit test data will be preloaded as well as a couple of dev plugins that are in there, but deactivated at the time because you don't need to run WP debug, but you might want to turn it on soon.

so there are some customizations that can be done with playground too to enable when we have release testing going on to get that. That part of you want some content if you're going to test the query block and not have to make six posts to do that. So we have an a version available for you that would already have, and that's, also been the problem, like test a release, but also you've gotta have a massive setup to be able to test a release.

[00:17:26] Tammie Lister: So even the onboarding to be able to be a tester is like massive. And I was like, should be how you start to learn. So yeah, it's super exciting and just. It, wouldn't have been possible before technology enabled it to be possible. It just happened that technology enabled this to be possible as well.

So that's also something that happened that technology, had opened up to be able to make this possible. And it's someone capitalizing on modern technology. And so modern technology empowering is also super exciting. Yeah. It's, it, really is exciting and, honestly, the profundity of it is not to be underestimated.

[00:18:02] Nathan Wrigley: I, have a tiny inclination of what it might be possible to do, but the things that were coming out of, Adam Zelensky mouth, I was really like, whoa. Really? That is just, and it gets, more because the technology then will get more capacity as well. Yep. And the devices will get stronger. The browser, the portal will get better.

And so go and listen to that episode, because you'll get an intuition as to, what is going on, but also, tacho, just helpfully, found a, talk that was given by Alex Kirk related to this at WordCamp Asia a few months ago. Yeah. did you see this one? Was there something you wanted to say or should I just want I was, yeah.

I was his mc, so I was in the room. but. So what one of the problems that we've always had in translating WordPress is that you do the translations on a page that will give you no context about the use of the sentence or the words, or the words that you have to translate there. There's some annotation by a developer if they took the time to actually put that in, but that's about it.

[00:19:09] Taco Verdonshot: What, is available now is that you can do translations live. Through the playground so that you can see in context, this is the WordPress admin and this is how the, sentence should be translated. And what that also gives you is that you can see, hey, if I have this Dutch translation for an English sentence, it's much longer and it no longer fits the box.

So I need to adjust so that it works in this layout. Yeah. And that is absolutely magic and, super valuable for translators all across the world. Nice. so I will link to that in the show notes. Anything that we've discussed today will come out in the, newsletter that I put together. it won't come out in the order that we're talking about it, but it'll be embedded in there somewhere.

[00:19:59] Nathan Wrigley: So I'll try to include that one as well. But thank you for that Tcho. Yeah. So just one quick recap again, that was on the tavern. If you go to wp tavern.com/podcast, you can see them all. And this is. Episode number 122. There was something on the tip of my tongue that I wanted to mention and it's completely gone outta my mind.

And so if it comes back at some point, then I will try to remember it and mention it. also if you wanna play with playground right now, like right now, go and do it. wordpress.org forward slash playground. Click this blue button, which I am not gonna click, because it'll end our show probably 'cause it's all happening in the browser.

And Adam explains exactly how all that works and it's basically dead clever. okay, so let's move on from playground. Go. Go have a play. So this is Word Camp Europe. We've got three or four stories related to this. It's coming around. We said, I think quick can raise of the four of us who's going, yep.

Oh four. Look at that. Let's see. Yay. that'll be nice. so I just wanted to mention a couple of things because I haven't done the show for a couple of weeks. There's a few that are a little bit stale, but nevertheless, there's a wellness track, which I, don't really know what is gonna be on the wellness track other than just reading it out here.

It just says, for the third year a row, the community team has organized activities in the wellness track. During both days of the conference, that's 14th and the 15th, the wellness track will offer beginner level yoga lessons and guided walking tours of Torino. I think the tours are like an hour long, something like that.

So nothing majorly taxing. and the yoga lessons, I'm not sure whether you need to sign up for them or you can just show up, but, that's quite nice. That's a nice thing to offer. the after party theme is also announced, and I'm gonna hand this one over to Tacho 'cause you had something about this, didn't you?

Here we go. yes. Yeah. I think it became a tradition when we first did a theme for the after party in Vienna. back in 20, long time ago, 2016. Oh yeah. 20 pre pandemic is a long time ago. Yes. Before time. Yeah. And and it has been a thing ever since. this for work Camp Europe, they're announcing it rather late.

[00:22:19] Taco Verdonshot: So that makes it challenging. But the idea is that you dress up in the theme. And we've had some pictures, Nathan, in the past where I've got it here. We're doing this really well. God show it 'cause it's so good. it's on my wall. It's always on my wall. There's, Tacho dressed in some sort of, I don't know, French Revolution style outfit.

[00:22:45] Nathan Wrigley: And there's some ugly English chap as. Yeah. So Tice was winning the cake for, an ensemble, I think at Asia. He came in his cultural attire. Oh. Which included lots of windmills and tulips all over. Yeah. A a bit of a farce, I think, for clothing. I'm not sure, I hope I'm not insulting the culture there, but I didn't see anyone else from the Netherlands ever dressed like Tyce was dressed, so no one ever would.

[00:23:16] Taco Verdonshot: Yeah. It's, so it's, but it's a fun thing. It's a gimmicky thing. And, I think that it's fun to, to be part of it. seeing the theme though, there's a lot of Italian movies because the idea is now that you, dress up in Italian movie style. But there's a lot of them that are less suitable for family friendly events, let's put it that way.

Okay. please, everyone, if you're dressing up, make sure that it's appropriate for a family friendly event. Yeah. Caveat, mTOR watch. Basically if it's got a u rating or whatever the equivalent is. Yeah. you're probably okay. Yeah. Anything else? Your, costume still has a code of conduct applied to it?

[00:24:02] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, the lack of a costume. Do you know what though? When I read this article? I literally thought that they'd like open source this theme, the, WordPress theme. I know that's ridiculous, but the first intuition was, oh, they've open sourced that theme. It's the, word camp 2024 Europe theme. But anyway, there we go.

Thank you for that. What else did we want to say? There's a question from Cameron that's quite related there about, the venue and last year the venue was at a club owned by Lindsay Lohan and there was quite an overflow of traffic, this time around Cameron, but I saw is that it is at the venue.

[00:24:42] Courtney Robertson: so that should afford more space as well as Yeah, as Tammy pointed out some quiet spaces too to, I think they said there would be no official quiet spaces, but I think there's also worth noting that there are. Hotels, adjacent to it. So I think that if, you were either staying at the hotel or people who are in the hotels, I do strongly imagine that the hotels are going to be some of the quietest spaces.

[00:25:10] Tammie Lister: Oh, okay. Yeah. So some of the hotel foyers may be places for people to go with headphones you need That's good. Good to know. Yeah, good to know. just a couple of quick one. I'll drop them in while, so I've got the, comments in my head. so tour is, I'm, sorry to, I'm gonna do tour beyond Felner.

[00:25:31] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Ish. Close enough. Okay. That'll do. yeah. Good afternoon from Barcelona. I have tuned in via LinkedIn, but the comments there seem to, yeah, apologies. LinkedIn do not allow this platform to exchange the comments, which is why I always drone on about going to wp builds.com/live because some platforms allow it.

Facebook has just turned them all off about three weeks ago, just said, no, no more API for you. and James is joining us. He says, good morning. And going back to the translation thing, translation is actually new territory that I'm trying to tackle specifically. Ooh. Specifically underserved Chinese communities to start looking to leverage W-P-L-W-P-M-L or welo.

Okay. Thank you for that. And, can I give James A. Little piece of advice when he is looking into translation plugins? There's quite a few more. And, personally, I'm a. Really big fan of, some of the other ones, but I'm not sure because they're not sponsors if we're allowed to, you can say whatever you like.

Yeah. Okay. side is building, a translation plugin that's built on multi-side, and that typically works a lot better. Multilingual Press is its name Multilingual Press, actually. Tako, if you drop the link into the show notes, I'll add it, sorry, into the private chat. I'll add it in, when I put it into the show notes so that anybody reading it can grab a hold of that multilingual press.

I'm sure you can Google that to your heart's content now. Yes. Okay. So still on, word Camp Europe. if you are gonna be showing up the, additional day, so this is on the, let me get this right, the Thursday, Thursday. Yeah. Yeah. So Thursday and then the Friday, Saturday is the, main event, if you like.

But the contributor day is going on the Thursday. And if you've never been to one before this article, just spells out what's going on, how you can be involved, what you can do. And basically, if you've never been to one and you're thinking it's a bunch of coders, it's gonna be weird. 'cause I don't do code.

Just step away from that thought. There's a, there's 101 different things that you could do. I actually last year, last time in Asia, I just approved photographs in the photo directory, which I've never done before. I thought that was quite. Quite fun. So there's a whole gamut of different things that you can do, and this article, will help you, orientate yourself, how you can prepare for it.

[00:27:58] Courtney Robertson: I think this one is specific to the training team. Yes. you're right. Different, yeah, different teams will have different types of things going on. If you are a totally new first time attendee, I'd recommend that you visit make.wordpress.org. At the top, there is a link in a yellow box to the survey, that will help you decide what team, based on your interests and skills.

And then each of those teams may have a similar post like this about what they are doing during contributor day. Thank you, Courtney. I found, and, I wanted to add something that the theme section this time isn't just theme review. there's lots of different things you can do in the, even in the theme section.

[00:28:37] Tammie Lister: just exploring. All the different things is, one of the good benefits of contribution days as well. And a good point to say is you don't have to stay on one section. You can even move, like you could go the first part of the morning in one, the second part of the morning, in another, like every coffee break, you could go to a different section and you could just explore the whole entire world of contribution and just learn what you like.

[00:29:02] Nathan Wrigley: It's basically a giant room with loads of tables and you just go and sit on plunk yourself on whatever table you like. And it's really buffet of contribution. Yeah. I'm gonna shamelessly put this out there. I am organizing contributor day for Word Camp us. I am, leading that initiative inside of Word Camp us so shamelessly.

[00:29:22] Courtney Robertson: I'm also going to be looking at benefiting from the many ways that Europe has organized their contributor day to provide that feedback and consider options as well for the US version of this nice happening in Portland later this year. You can, I, think there's one important thing that we should mention, and that is that contributor day requires a separate ticket.

[00:29:43] Taco Verdonshot: Oh. So it doesn't work on your regular work in Europe ticket. and unfortunately it's already sold out, so if you are not registered for contributor day, maybe there might be some spots available on Twitter where people gave up theirs, but for the most part. It's 700 seats and they're all filled. Can I ask a question about that?

[00:30:07] Nathan Wrigley: 'cause I don't really know what the intuition around that is. Is it health and safety, fire regulations and food, basically. Practicality. You cannot, like what? Like it's almost one-on-one training. You cannot give that to people. in, just say if you, you need to know who's gonna be, that's why you ask on who's gonna do the tables, who's gonna do it.

[00:30:28] Tammie Lister: So some sections, maybe. Who have more popular are gonna need to scale up. Having people covering. Yeah. Yeah. all those things. The other edition I'd say is if you are going to a section where you may need a computer, take one. 'cause there's not gonna be spare laptops kicking around. Also bring electric conversion if you're coming from Yes.

[00:30:47] Courtney Robertson: Not on the continent. maybe battery power as well could be helpful. There have been some chips where we cha you things. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Great. I think we've covered all the bases of the contributor today. That's And hydrate. And hydrate. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's perfect. okay, so again, this is a bit stale, but well worth mentioning.

[00:31:11] Nathan Wrigley: I, I don't know what, benefit this, this confers on the event, but, it is just to say that word, camp Europe has received patronage, as we say in the uk, not patronage, from the European. Parliament, it from, what I've read on this article, it's basically just the European Parliament, just giving a bit of a thumbs up to the WordPress community and just saying, we recognize your endeavors, we recognize what you're doing.

you are good custodians and we will, grant you this. it says here prestigious patronage, but I'm not entirely sure what that means, if there's any money that comes along with that or any special status for future events or anything. But anyway, well done. standing on the shoulders of giants over many years, I'm sure, we could say there.

Anything to add to that or shall I move on? I'm hoping It just improves, the visa process, particularly for a lot of our Asian community, a lot of the Asian community coming in to this event, struggle with their Visa application process, getting things approved in time. I know that the wait lists in India in particular have been years long to just even get your initial appointment to get a visa.

[00:32:19] Courtney Robertson: So I don't know if this will help unblock any of that, but one can dream. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it will because the way that your, it works. and the different, 'cause it's a different country each time. but I actually hope it would see some monetary, but I don't think we find out what the patronage is, unfortunately.

[00:32:39] Tammie Lister: Okay. Unless I'm missing it doesn't say what, it does. But it's great to be rec, it's great that it's been recognized. 'cause it's certainly been there for a while as well. Yeah. Really nice. Yeah. And if it, even if it does confer some official authority and it does make that tr visa process even a tiny bit easier, that would be, yeah, that would be great.

[00:32:57] Nathan Wrigley: And then, here's an event which tacos just put in my direction. I did know about it, but I failed to put it into our rundown. This is, run in conjunction with Yost Codeable. blue Host and it's the WC EU Pride Party. See the date there? 14th from 8:00 PM Is this a ticketed thing? Yes. That you need?

Yes. Yeah. Yes. But since we sold out the event in less than 48 hours, we contacted the venue and we, added some extra tickets. So there should still be a few. Tickets available now, go. Now you're nearly at 500. I'll tell you folks, this was last year. this party was my favorite, out doing the after party pretty swiftly.

Was that the one where I was speaking to you via mobile phone? Yes, we were, we, it was quite loud and Nathan and I were trying to converse just a little. So I would type my response because I needed a voice yet to get through the rest of the event. Yeah. And I wasn't going to yell over the things. but yes, that was that event, Nathan.

[00:34:02] Courtney Robertson: So I asked you a question and then you typed out the reply and I'll tell you what I. Courtney can type on a mobile phone keyboard as fast as I can talk. It is pretty impressive actually. I was, gobsmacked by how incredibly quick you were. so there's a whole bunch of events going on. There is a tab on the website, let me just see if.

[00:34:21] Nathan Wrigley: I can find it community and a lot on the same day. So again, you do not have to be at all the events at the same time. Here we go, side events close itself. one of them, which I've always enjoyed is just, it's a picnic, so it's just outdoors. it's the, 12th, so it's a couple of days before the whole thing kicks off.

It's just, it's nice. Hopefully the weather will be nice. It starts at, one o'clock in the afternoon. There's no limits because it's in a public park. so you can just sign up for that and hopefully just meet some of your fellow WordPresses. That'll be quite nice. I'm going to shamelessly toss in the link there from, the WP world for its work Camp Europe day two, if you're looking for additional.

[00:35:04] Courtney Robertson: Side parties, et cetera. Marcus is organizing those in conjunction with your ability to show others that you have been to that camp. okay, let me just pop that one on the screen. So this is Marcus's project, the WP World, and then if you click on, I guess WP Events, you'll be able to find this. It's forward slash events forward slash WordCamp dash Europe dump dash 2024.

[00:35:28] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, and, if you scroll down a little go on the right hand side, it lists some side events as well, and you can find others that are going in roughly. see if there's anyone from close to home for you. This project that Marcus has put together, it gets more useful by the week, and he seems to add a new feature on, which is profoundly interesting every week.

Bravo, Marcus, you were in the comments. I dunno if you're still there, but thank you for that. I really appreciate it. so yeah, go there. I'll try to link to that in the show notes as well. We've done that. We've done that. okay, so this one, came up this week. I can't remember if one of you was the ones that dropped this in or if this came I just did.

Yeah. Yeah. Angela reached out about this one this morning in my time. Okay. So I haven't read this one, so I'll just hand it to you. Courtney. I, had a chance only while we were organizing show notes because again, Montclair, I just got one last night. but if you look at the table that you see at the bottom of our screen, that's where my eyes first went.

[00:36:26] Courtney Robertson: And that you can, it doesn't really show you scroll bars, but it will tell you 2016, we have 107 events. 33, almost 34,000 unique attendees. 47, almost thousand, tickets sold. And then let's scroll all the way to 2024. We've had 22 events thus far, or that are planned. only 6,425 new attendees and only 9,821 tickets purchased.

so I like data that will come up in maybe another piece we're about to cover, from the data that I'm seeing in this article about growing the sustainability, the growth of this community, those are some interesting numbers. I'll just say that. and this article, I'm sure will go on for that.

But they're discussing next gen events, reengagement, initiatives to support the growth of the community. So there are lots of different types of data that are shown here. I would encourage folks to take a look, read it at a slower pace than I've had time to yet, and, weigh in with feedback.

Comments on this post are going to be really important. just having a very brief look and I, love, I, like. Data when it's in a chart, a table is like my enemy. It's whoa, too many numbers. But this chart speaks to me quite nicely. obviously we all know why this just fell off a cliff here.

[00:37:54] Nathan Wrigley: I'm guessing, the advent of covid and what have you. But my, suspicion was that it wouldn't come back particularly quickly. I just think we all got, derailed by Covid and changed the way that we behave and live and work and commute and travel and all of that. But this does seem to be going in a nice direction.

I suppose we could all have hoped that it would've shot up more logarithmically than that, but that does seem to be going in the right direction. But then when I look at these numbers, it makes me pause for thought. But where are we? We're in June, so we're not really even halfway through the year.

So it's a bit early to be. I didn't, my defense whether, this number already includes, for example, W Camp Europe. 'cause that's a big game changer. Same goes for work camp s of course. because that's adding thousands to, to our numbers. Yeah. I, think it depends on geography. England's a good example.

[00:38:55] Tammie Lister: We only have one workcamp. and, I think it depends on where people are, the cost of living. what, whether your country is, in the cost of living crisis, or whether your country isn't in the cost of living crisis. 'cause some aren't, the lucky countries that aren't, it's changed.

It's, that wasn't a situation like you, England's the only country I can speak of. It's where I live. but we certainly had a lot of we camps before, right? For the small space that we had. And we have one now that. Isn't one that a lot of people are necessarily gonna get to. It's just a small one.

we like Yeah. And people live so spread out and even meetups, it just doesn't happen anymore. that's the thing. If you scroll down, Nathan Uhhuh, 'cause I think W Camps are the bigger events, but this, one is for meetups, this graph, I'll skip the numbers because you didn't like them.

[00:39:59] Taco Verdonshot: They're bad numbers. If you, look at that blue line, which is new members for meetups. Yeah. It's just gone. Oh gosh. that's basically flatlined at zero, hasn't it? it's not, it must be, but that makes a lot of sense to me. If you. If I look in my area, the nearest meetup to me is probably over a hundred miles away.

[00:40:25] Tammie Lister: It's a while away. Part of that too, I was speaking with Victor Ramirez, who is one of the New York City organizers and what happened in New York during the pandemic, there was a pretty mass exodus where a lot of the career oriented folks yes, no longer live in the city, and they don't want to go into the city no.

[00:40:44] Courtney Robertson: On a weeknight to attend a meetup. And so it's having to rethink everything about the approach. Yeah, and I would say during the pandemic, probably attending more meetups is, the interesting thing. so maybe considering more virtual or those kind of things is something to there, because I know I did, I attended way more meetups when during the pandemic than I do now.

[00:41:09] Taco Verdonshot: That's the interesting thing when you look at, the numbers above this graph, because the problem with this graph is that it. Shows, the scale up to 150,000, whereas events hosted is a very low number. So that's why it looks like it's almost zero. But we went from almost 6,000 events. So meetup events in 2019 to, at the low point, 3,100, which is half, and the far majority will be online.

But if you look at the number, the new members, it's just gone. 2018, we had 71,000 new members. In 2023, we had 7,000. That means we lost 90% of new attendees. Gosh, if we look at RSVPs, we went from a hundred, almost 140,000 in 2018 to eight. 70,000 in 2022. That's half. So it's a lot that we lost over Covid.

[00:42:24] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So a couple of things just to throw in. The first one is Tammy mentioned, This. So this is the This is the, event. the one. I've got myself a ticket. I wasn't able to go last year 'cause I had a lot of things on, but I'm gonna be attending this one. It's, and it's close to me, actually.

It's in, just on the coast near Newcastle. I went to the last one. I'm, unable to go to this one, Uhhuh, but I, highly recommend it. I even had vegan fish and chips. It was amazing. Oh, nice, It was banana glos. Nice. Yeah, it was, amazing. So I, to try that and I walked all the way out, and took photographs to the lighthouse.

[00:43:00] Tammie Lister: It was a beautiful work camp, so I Oh, really? Recommend it. I'm very pleased to hear all that. So this is Whitley Bay. So this is happening, in the uk. Another thing to mention, I'll just take that off the screen, is, so adding a little bit more, let's say sanguine, The WordPress London Meet Up has returned.

[00:43:19] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. And they're going on, the, the final Thursday of every month. And they had one last Thursday and 51 people. Came into the room. So actually I think that was that the organizers, Dan Paul, were pretty pleased, I think with those numbers. That's, that's really nice. It's near London Bridge.

If you are thinking about it, you can just Google W-P-L-D-N. and yeah, you can organize, it's free. You can just turn up. and I think the word, the Brighton one is starting, has started like coming back again. I'm, nowhere near that part anymore. but I, think people are starting to do them again, but I also think there's just a change in people's habits.

[00:44:03] Tammie Lister: Yep. It's changing people's lives. People discover this thing called hobbies and their families during the pandemic and, when they finish work. I, would like to add to the mix, maybe meetups are not such a thing that people do so much. And that may also be a change in behaviors. So it's a balance as to.

Where are the other ways, yeah, that, that's, the meetups are great and awesome, but where are the other ways that kind of, that energy can be put into it as well? Okay. So a couple of comments then we'll return to this, but just a couple of things. Firstly, James is just thanking Tacho for is helpful tip.

[00:44:43] Nathan Wrigley: That's nice. And Marcus is saying thank you for, the kind words about the, WP world and, Cameron. Oh, disappointed. He missed Whitley. Last year was literally days after I left the uk. Bless him. he did, he was in part of the page world of Summit and he was doing it in a room in his hotel in New York City.

And, I felt, mixed feelings about that 'cause it was really nice that he was in the summit, but also he was in New York in his, is, Cameron based in Australia? Yeah. That's my thought. He was in UK for a lot of time last year. Yes. So Ca Cameron, are you able to get to the word camp that is happening in Australia?

[00:45:24] Courtney Robertson: Yeah. I'm very curious to know. Yeah, and I think I saw some news from you one about the word camp in Australia. I know Nathan, you had interviewed Joe Mini last year, regarding work Camp Australia happening and I was delighted to see some news that Cameron shared. Sydney? Yeah, Sydney, I think. Sydney.

[00:45:41] Nathan Wrigley: I want to say Sydney. I'm sure it was Sydney. I bet Cameron's gonna be there with bells on, but, we'll wait and see, if his comment drops in. anyway, so that was Whitley Bay. Let me see if we've got anything more about that. Anyway, sorry. So that piece, let me just give it its title in case you're only listening to this on audio.

this was produced on 31st of May, so a couple of days ago. And it's by Rossio. Thank you. Rossio Valdivia. current challenges of WordPress events shaping the future. And so there's stats data, but I, would imagine there's a little bit more discussion to be had, around all that as well. Alright, let's move on.

I don't wanna dwell on this one too much, but I just want to alert you to it. And I think this maybe has a connection with what we've just been talking about. There seems to be more talk now about how does WordPress market itself, and whether that's marketing to the, crowd of people who are already listening.

things like this, nobody's gonna stumble across this show the first week they get into WordPress. This is really for people who nerd out on it. but how do we, get the message out there? I. To, to explain to people what WordPress is, to explain where all the resources are, to explain how you can build a website, that there is a community that you can be involved and shape the future of it, and all of that.

And quite a few people, Jamie Marson is one of them. talking about the right, the what they've got going on over at Wix, right? It's a word we don't say very often on the show, but here we go. they have 400 count them on. Many hands, 400 full-time marketing people, getting the word out about what it is, how it works, how much it costs, what you can do with it, and all of that.

And, we don't because our system is entirely different. It's broadly led by, volunteers. And so the idea was, why don't we put like a media call together and they could be charged with. Figuring out how the messaging goes out there. And there's an article which came out on the 27th of May.

I'll pop it on the screen quickly. I didn't realize I've taken it off. which is a, summation of a call that happened explaining what the media, team would look like, what that call would look like, what the rules of engagement are, who would be the people that would be a part of it, and so on. So if you've got marketing chops and you're interested, you can be a part of this.

I, honestly, I don't think any of this is locked down at this point, so you could really forge your head with this. It's something that I'm obviously deeply interested in. I wasn't able to attend, 'cause I, actually, I was at a wedding, so couldn't go whether I wanted to or not. But I'm keen to see how this goes.

But honestly, I think we do have to take this seriously because we are, we're, whether we like it or not, we are gonna be. Compared to these commercial platforms that have got these giant pockets, super Bowl ad money that they can spend and get their product out there. And obviously we've just seen what for four years ago, five years ago, was a thriving community, got absolutely gouged and hollowed out by a pandemic, much everything else did.

But we can't spend our way back into being a successful team. So we need ways of distributing the message. I've said too much. Is there anything you would like to say on this article?

[00:49:19] Courtney Robertson: That's a no, you go first. it's a yes with caution. Yeah. so you mentioned about Wix having an entire marketing department. right now the experiment is to close the current WordPress marketing team and instead have a media core, which is slightly akin to public relations. Different type of pr.

That's a good way to tell the devs. and it's under the word experiment has been used in there. I have yet to see what defines this as a success or not, or what becomes of the marketing team or not because there are other parts the marketing team has played. I myself contributed to the marketing team by way of handling a lot of what's on the about page during releases and thinking about, wordsmithing into, we send an email out to plugin devs every time that we hit, rc, meaning the code is frozen and let's make sure the plugin devs have read the field guide and ensure they know all of the things, right?

So there's other pieces that are marketing that are important as well to do. And the team, I believe the marketing team was asking for some data and essentially it came around to we can't provide that data. So instead we're going to experiment by closing the team and launching. Media core, which is a bit of a public relations effort, but it doesn't necessarily help me know how we define as this experiment working or not.

And then also, currently what I see is an effort to outreach to the WordPress news, which I fully support, and in fact, thank you. Try to help give them the information of here's what's happening in wordpress.org. I am busy a lot of times on trying to round all of that up so you have one single spot to get that source of information via the roundups.

I do for post status, and pro tip. I hope that the Podcasters Newsletter people in YouTubers crib note it as I know Nathan does, I do for their audiences. But at the same time, is it also to get beyond the WordPress bubble of news? Is this an effort to also go to some of the bigger tech companies covering tech news outside of our bubble?

And I don't know what the current vision is to get us from WordPress bubble to like making sure that WordPress is attributed correctly over wordpress.com and the big tech journal sites that we, we see a lot of those kind of coverages. So there's. Questions. I think it's really Okay. I'm gonna get into it now.

[00:51:49] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. But I'll let Taco also jump in. Oh, yeah, sorry, tacho. Sorry, you go first because I've said that I'm really, yeah. I'm really happy with what Courtney said because that means that I don't have to be the blunt Dutch guy, to say all of those things. but like you said, an experiment without a measure of success and without a frame as to how long will this run, who's going to run it, who's going to assess its success, all of that is not an experiment.

[00:52:22] Taco Verdonshot: The only reason you call an experiment is because it keeps people quiet, because then it's not something final. So I very much, disagree, with calling this an experiment. That said, and that's something that you touched on in, in basically your last sentence. if you look at the, criteria then, the media partners criteria, one of them is, have a focus on producing content that is at least 80% about WordPress.

So we are going to collect the people in a media core who are already advocating for WordPress, who are already touching on WordPress. Yeah, I can see why you say that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when held the first meeting, regarding this, she had cited seeing that I was in the meeting, she had cited GoDaddy's blog and I said, but we, it.

[00:53:25] Courtney Robertson: WordPress is such a small fraction of the revenue at GoDaddy. I don't think the community quite sees or knows that amount. and our, blog reflects how much of our base is WordPress or not. And her mentioning that I'm the one that often writes, here's what's going on in the release on the GoDaddy blog, or Here's what's going on at the camp.

which is great, and I love to support our community that way. but I will be the first to say that 80% of our blog is certainly not WordPress related. It reflects more of the rest also of what good Eddie has going on, which is bigger than WordPress. Yeah, I guess, also there is the danger, okay, so me as an example, right?

[00:54:08] Nathan Wrigley: Putting my neck on the chopping board a bit, I, if I was to be involved in this, there is an opportunity for me to be really self-serving. I could, I could, promote all the things that I do, and the temptation would obviously be that. I hope that I would resist that temptation, but you get the point, right?

If, you are creating content in the WordPress space, there is that. There's an opportunity to, push your version of the 6.6 release article as opposed to, you just said GoDaddy, let's go with that, the GoDaddy version of it. So needs to be a bit mindful, of all that, and you would hope that the intuitions of the people, involved would be sensible.

And obviously, the sword of Damocles, you're not gonna be a part of this team anymore. Maybe that would also straighten things up. But it's gonna be interesting because I don't wanna be accused of, being self-serving particularly, you understand what I mean? but I, get it, but I, think this story's gonna run, what standards of the pro, it says con content, quality standards, all of that.

as I said on a previous show, that kind of rules me out. So I think you're underselling yourself here. okay. So go and take a look. I, if you are, if you're interested in marketing, WordPress and I, just wanna come back to Courtney's point. I think one of the big things would be to get the message out to the big publications, the New York Times, the TechCrunch, the Verge.

I'm just making up things, the, whatever, press there is out there who, probably don't have the faintest idea that WordPress is 43% of the internet this Titanic force. And just treats it in a very, yeah, I don't know, maybe slightly offhand, sort of parochial cottage industry kind of way.

And I think that would be one of the great benefits to come out of something like this if we could get the word, out to the big hitters. That to me sounds like a really nice idea. Yeah. Tammy, did you wanna say anything? I wanna do a lot of listening about this, space because it's not something that, is particularly something that I know so much of.

[00:56:24] Tammie Lister: But I also want to believe a lot of good intent. And I think that there's a lot of people who want, creating content. And what I hope is that it also surfaces the good people that are making content for those risks that want to consume it. I guess that's like a really minor for this. Nope. Nope. but one of the things is it's easy to go to the same sources all the time.

And part of this that I hope as a consumer of WordPress content is it will expose me, it suppose. More content to me, as, as well. so yeah, that, that's just something that I think it might do is, raise up some of the voices that maybe we don't hear so much. So yeah, that's why I've been quiet 'cause it's, not really, I have no, I get it.

[00:57:10] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you for speaking up though. That's great. The, one of, I think maybe I've inoculated myself a little bit 'cause I don't actually create content where I speak. my, but you're still creating content. I'm gonna correct you. You're still creating content. This is content. Okay. Okay. Yeah. What I'm saying is that I, the purpose of things like this is to highlight other people's content.

It's, I, yeah. No, I do. No, you're right. I'll shut off. You are creating content. I hate you content, you, myself, that was a failure. Okay. Nevermind. Even if you open a box on TikTok, you are creating content. As much as people don't wanna say they are. When they do that, what is, fascinating though, is I've got all the alerts.

Courtney does a better job than I do of creating the news, but I've got all the alerts for all the things in Google. and all of that, and it is really rare. You probably are getting some of the information that maybe someone who's trying to start to find that and trying to write for WordPress doesn't have.

[00:58:08] Tammie Lister: So maybe this would be a way for them having access to that. Yeah. Or having access to interview people or having access to that, so then we can have different journalistic voices. That could be a really awesome part of this that I'm also thinking about, who are the new voices that could come through from this?

I'm gonna always think of the happy, positive things and the best content, because that's also, I've gone out and subscribed to every kind of RSS. That, and I don't think people do that these days. Do they do that? Not the youngins? No. No. So we're in the RSS forever for Yeah, we still got those feed readers.

[00:58:42] Nathan Wrigley: What? Oh yeah. Yeah. What's a feed reader Dad, lie down and alternate. I'll also say that in the weekly roundups that I do, I have been pulling in core track. It's hidden under the details block with click to expand. Yep. Yep. I've been pulling in GitHub discussions and GitHub issues as well.

[00:59:00] Courtney Robertson: Basically, anything I can, can pull together. Now I recognize I need design help and if there are any people that contribute design to the project that have ideas about this and or revising makes. wordpress.org/latest. That's always an a good option. but I recognize that the community that wants to pay attention to what's happening in the news aren't going to go to the million different little places to source that together.

my own efforts, when I do the weekly roundups, I keep commentary out of the thing as much as I can, And let people pick from here is everything in one place. It needs some design improvements. I'm not that person, but at least everything is in one place and people can pick what they need to cover out of that.

I just, I have concerns. Matt. Madero Cameron alluded to something that Matt Madeiras was dealing with. Matt had applied to be a media partner at EU in the past. He's unclear who makes the decisions for who gets in for that or not. he thought he was invited to the first kickoff for the media Partners program and did not receive the actual invite.

So, there's some things that are like. to be worked out. Okay. I'll just leave that there. yep. so you must check out on post status Courtney releases this weekly. and it's, it basically, it's, title with a link. So the link is the title and it, so that's what you get. And it's brilliant 'cause it, and it's, all in, different categories and sections and it's, it just easy, scrollable, your eyes can wander a lot, but there is everything in there.

[01:00:36] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. and then what I do is I go and steal a proportion of what you've put in there. and, but then I take the title and then I add a little bit of, not my words, I the first hundred words or paragraph of the person's commentary, just so there's a little bit more context there. Yeah. But I'm, not doing as much.

Surfacing as you are, but yeah, appreciate that. I'm happy to do that kind of thing for you. Oh, I'm so glad that you do. Yeah, it makes my life, like I said, it's theft by another name. so here we go. So a few more comments. James, back again. this is, oh, that's James was saying. Yes, I was hanging out with James this weekend.

[01:01:14] Courtney Robertson: Ah, nice. I, dunno why I'm reading it in my head. I should probably be reading it out loud. that's what I found out this past week at World Camp Montclair. According to the rules, an organizer can only run a camp for two terms. Oh. Like a president? does that mean per camp or any camp overall? So that's a question.

[01:01:32] Nathan Wrigley: Does anybody have an answer to that? I dunno. It's complicated. Okay, I'll leave it there. Facebook status? Yeah. Now, so what we want to prevent is someone owning an event so that, When someone, is the founder of a local word camp, which is already an interesting term, but let's put it that way.

[01:01:57] Taco Verdonshot: Yeah. That they claim the right to organize that event for years to come, which will eventually, and that's what we're trying to prevent. have some bias towards maybe industry friends being allowed to speak, et cetera, et cetera. So if we, switch, if we say, you can do this two years in a row, and then someone else has to take the lead.

You can still be on the organizing team, you can still be a volunteer, you can be involved, but you cannot be the lead organizer for more than two years to prevent that sort of claiming an event from being yours. Yeah. Human nature gets in there. Yes. Doesn't it? And, I think we did actually have an example of that a year or so ago where there was, there seemed to be, one of the campuses canceled, wasn't it?

[01:02:45] Nathan Wrigley: The very last moment, somewhere in the world, because there was a feeling that, that, had happened. I can't remember the exact nature of that story, but, okay. Thank you for that. And, Toru, James May there, so he is replying to James. maybe there are areas in which the rule is a blocker.

But at least in Japan, less and less people want to challenge to be in that position. Okay. So that could be a blocker, couldn't it? if people are willing and they wanna do 10 events in a row and it's gonna keep the event going. Okay. the WP Minute, Cameron was saying, had some ellipsis interesting things to say about the kickoff course.

You can go check that out. That would be Matt Madeiros. Matt Madero, yeah. Yeah. Thank you. and Michelle? She's late, but here she is. Hi, Michelle. Yeah, Hi Michelle. I hope you brought your coffee along. Yeah, come on. It's, it was a good weekend. Get there. You get the coffee going. and then Peter is back this experiment.

So we're back onto the media call. This experiment gives me a lot of reasons to be wary and a few to be happy. It feels yay happy like shaking. Sorry that was loud. Happiness. That was great. Yeah. Sudden, sudden burst of happiness there. That was good. okay. But I'd be interested to know, is it because you, Peter, sorry.

Is it because you are concerned about who the people are or what the criteria are? Or is it the fact that the experiment doesn't have the goals if you like? yeah. Okay. And Michelle is now fully caffeinated with lots in capital letters. She was in Montclair with me. She was there. Okay. yeah. Alright.

Alright. we are, we've got something about Michelle. I dunno if it's the next one to come up. Maybe it is. No, We're onto this. So we've got two articles which Courtney brought to my attention and we're gonna do them in the, correct order. So the first one. Is this one? project Health Hangouts and Working Group kickoff.

You wrote this A little over a week ago. Yes. Tell us what's going on here then. I will give you, if you scroll to the bottom of the article, there are four replays available at this time. Yeah. And we will have bulleted lists from that. I did some outreach. I, dmd, taco and Tammy both as well.

[01:04:54] Courtney Robertson: so we want data in the project. We like data to help make decisions. We just saw in the camp and meetup space, we were just talking about lots of data points. It's weird seeing so many of me on the screen, Nathan.

So I, we announced. This, we are currently trialing some tools to help us get better data related to the health and sustainability from a contributor base of the project. So I had asked Matt a question at Europe last year. I remember Kareem asked a question, Kareem Marucci, I don't know, a decade ago, related to having dashboards for teams.

And so it, looking at the initiatives that teams have, what work is getting done and what work needs to be done, and how sustainable are we being from that perspective. But I identified, as you could see there, that there's four bullet points, right? Where your mouse just was. Yeah. About team health. So looking at this first and foremost, from the lens of the teams, let's benefit the teams, elevate the work of what they are doing and what needs to get done.

So then individual contributors, some contributors choose that they would like to be sponsored for the work that they do. Some choose that they do not wish to be sponsored, and so that's okay as well. But both of them have different types of data that they would like. For instance, those that would like to be sponsored, whether they currently are or not, may want some data to support that they're actually doing stuff with the payment that they're receiving.

having some data available for them in a way that doesn't require lots of manual calculations, which, Tammy shared with me her methods just a bit and it's rather manual at this time. so let's help alleviate some of that. But then, additionally, those that are individual contributors and don't want to be sponsored.

I've heard from some folks about, Andy Frain shared on one of the earlier posts that's linked above. Andy did a lot of work with Colin on the rollback initiatives happening inside of Core. And when we. Look at those beautiful bubble charts during state of the word that JB helps make possible related to the props that Jonathan Dier helps calculate.

that's a metric related to a release and we're boiling everything down to a number of one, whether it is one merge or one proofreading, grammar correction or something of that sort. So we would like to maybe have some different types of metrics saying. Perhaps compare also lines of code or some different types of things, organizational stakeholders.

I reached out to Taco and I said, Hey, your organization has also contributed, as is mine, to sponsoring people to contribute, whether that is sending staff in or giving, money to others who are already doing the contribution. So what data do they need? And then finally, also our project stakeholders so that if we kick off some new initiative and some project that we're not stretching an already thin contributor, base thinner in terms of all the things that we need are attempting to do.

So I have a, a demo of, and I'm going to only let's do a share screen. I'm only sharing in that, right now we don't make this, we will make data public. The first thing that we are trialing requires a login to get in. And you'll understand that as you look at this. we don't want to necessarily show all the data because if you study data science, not everything should be public.

meaning I could see we've connected GitHub to this tool. beja is a, SaaS platform that integrates several open source tools under the hood. There is re lab, which is a open source tool that you could connect many data sources to. We have only connected Git, GitHub to this at this time. but it will take many different types of tools and help get a lot of that data together.

First and foremost, we're still reviewing which tool is going to be the tool for the project. should we build it ourselves? Should we pay for a SaaS that takes care of it? What are the pros and cons of that? So we have some metrics available to start, but we're also making some decisions from that perspective.

Automatic is paying at this time, $1,000 a month to trial what we currently have. and if we want to hook up more data points such as Slack to this, the costs can increase. if so, I think Slack would be great from a perspective of seeing the. Types of meetings and attendance people participate in that.

That's not even counted anywhere right now. Oh, so sorry. Give it a second to, to load here. but additional types of points that I would like to see included in the past, but Georgia has worked with, meetup, but the APIs, when Meetup got acquired, those APIs were deprecated. so if we choose to go with Gather Press and or when we're factoring Glot press translations and some other things, given that the underpinnings of beter are also, let's see.

Go into GitHub PRS and do an overview here. So we're working on setting up the dashboards per teams and, that type of data. What I would love to see is GI GitHub track, which currently is not built, WordPress revisions, not just our assess so that we can attribute somebody that revises something or some other things.

So to add these other features in is possible. Maybe we could contribute those open source. To re that is underpinning urg, right? there's things to consider with all of this. what you could see here is that ada, I've been working with Hari and ADA on a lot of this work. and ADA has done a lot of the work of setting up this person is sponsored by this organization at this time.

Nice. and I would love to automate that so that individuals like Tammy who work sometimes for this organization for a period of time and that organization for a period of time are accounted for. I'm trying to, I am forming my thoughts around how do we accumulate all of this data?

Who are the decision makers? How do we in an ongoing way, make. Maintaining this kind of data sustainable. And then what stories do we tell with it? So we can see contributions and decline in this. And I'm choosing not to show that on the screen. There are lots of different data points, but I don't wanna out that individual contributors may be declining in their contributions.

These ones are the ones that are really active in the last, at the top of the screen. I can set out some of the, dates with that, to say, in a certain period of time, who is contributing, what types of information. but we would never want to publicly air this person is contributing far less, but perhaps team reps may want to connect with that person and see.

Is life going Okay, I don't need the personals, but is life okay that we see that your, contributions are declining? And also check and see is there something about.org that we can work on to improve that experience? And if you're choosing some other part of life over contributing, good on you, please take care of you.

But let's work on getting some things reassigned so that we don't have things dangling forever. We could also see data about, prs that have been sitting around for a long period of time, un meed to help bring that together. So this is very early. This is demo one. There are many tools that do parts of this.

we went for what one of the big industry standard options actually is as our first area to explore and automatic. Wonderful folks that they are for helping us get that information. We don't want to ongoing, continue to expect automatic to pay for all of this. So they have shared that they're willing to cover us for this trial.

But if we choose to have a data source, we need to either as the open source project, come up with, build it ourselves and actually have the labor to do or collect funds to make it possible. Yeah. Wow. Courtney. Peeling back the layers of the onion there. What's going on in the background? That was, and I, pretty cool.

I'm also thinking about, we've got some folks that are knowledge workers. knowledge workers being, their job involves lots of reading, historical, how this came about and that's hard to document. So I've looked at, Drupal has an interesting way that they love their contributions. I've thought about that for the areas that don't get tracked and, ways that, is that linked to this piece?

[01:13:28] Nathan Wrigley: Is that what you were Ah, and that piece I was looking at. We know if you see Jeff Paul shares in there that, Luke Carbu is sponsored by multiple organizations. For his work. Elementor and Omnis send back Luke Carbu for plugin review, which is fantastic, thank you to those organizing organizations as well.

[01:13:49] Courtney Robertson: But how do we divvy up some of that? likewise it led me to thinking when I was working on the dashboards about how the teams are structured and how we would need to have dashboards for various initiatives. Where do I put BGE with the DEIB working group? I wrote a post on my own site recently too, just asking very generally these questions about the teams and, the organization of the teams and working groups and all of that.

[01:14:13] Tammie Lister: As someone like J'S gonna be a good example of that. 'cause Jin has how many different sponsors now, right? across, multiple different spaces. So yeah, I wanna get term enough to a reasonable hourly rate too. My goodness. Yeah, But, that's what. at the moment I'm a one source just for a fixed term, but that's not what most people are gonna do, and that's maybe not what my future will be.

and that's the whole point about those of us who are project focused with, our contributions. So yes, been able to adapt to those of us who are, in, I wouldn't say it's different versions of contribution because I think there's a lot of us doing it now, Yeah. I would, just, dear listener, I'll just point you back towards the article, which kind of.

[01:15:07] Nathan Wrigley: Give you a summation of what Courtney was talking about there. And, 22nd of May, written by Courtney over on Make and it's Project, health Hangouts and working group kickoff. And, whilst you can't get into the bits and the pieces, I'm not sure if these demos show some of the stuff. Do you?

yeah. so you can see what's going on there and yeah, sustainability, whenever I get my, whenever I hear that word, I'm always thinking about the environment. I dunno why that pops into my head. I always think green, cutting down carbon, that kind of thing. But really it's a much bigger enterprise in the WordPress space.

It's not just about that, although that is part of the, one of the spokes if you like. But keeping the project going, keeping the, I don't know, the meet ups going, the events going, the people being recognized for the contributions they make and looks like, Looks like Courtney's got the, all the tendrils, in progress, trying to make all of that work.

But that was, fascinating. And again, many thanks to Harry isda and KO for their work and helping get this together thus far. Yeah, that was really interesting. I dunno if we've got any comments about that, but we do have one from Peter related back to the marketing team, which will just pop up there.

I, was asking Peter, what, were the, reasons that he was, not, bullish about it, let's say that. and he says, honestly, all of the above, that's everything we mentioned, especially after following the marketing team discussion on Slack, people wanted to do real marketing, but were, for lack of a better word, squelched.

okay. I confess I didn't see that happening, but, thank you for your insight, Peter. Alright, we're gonna move on very quickly. I just want to mention this. over on Learn, dot wordpress.org, the beginner user. so this is, I guess like the 1 0 1 of WordPress. Nice, straightforward little course.

We're not gonna dwell on it for long. You can see it's made up of components and different parts, site editing, content creation, spam. It's the basics. but if you've got clients and you wanted them to have a quick, easy way to figure out how WordPress works, now. Now there's this, beginner WordPress user, it's called, and you can check it out.

So that's really nice. And Wp, ah, let me get it right. women what? Yes, women. W yes. We had a, discussion before that I'm incapable of reading, basically, and I was confusing the, singular and the, the plural women woman. This is Michelle Frache yet again, because honestly, Michelle doesn't do enough.

she's got countless minutes every month, which, needlessly wasted. And, so she decided to, to launch another newsletter. And this is such an interesting initiative, as they always are. It says, welcome to the only newsletter in WordPress by women for women and about women, and then inclusive of non-binary friends.

If you wanna subscribe to this, if that is your bag and you would like to be a part of this email list, you know what to do, go to wp such a good URL, wp, wonder Woman Women, dot com. again, it'll be in the show notes. WP Michelle, you now need to register an extra domain. That's right. I'm so sorry.

I've butchered it. needs to buy it for you. Yeah, thank you. WP Wonder, W-O-M-E-N-I seemingly can't pronounce that correctly, but I will put it into the show notes.com and, yeah, it's just the beginning. And Michelle, in the comments has made the point that it's not just Michelle. Sorry. it is.

Yeah, it is. It is. It's, plural. Michelle, it's also Michelle Butcher Jones, so you can see them on the screen there. So the two of them have collaborated on this project. I haven't received a copy of that letter yet, so I can't. Talk anymore, but, as time is pressing, can we crack on? I would say that you're not the target audience.

[01:18:59] Taco Verdonshot: Maybe. I don't know. Tako, I've got, yeah. All right. Yeah, you're probably right. Okay, here we go. Next one, it goes up to 11. that's just a spinal tap reference, if you've ever seen that film. up until very recently, the plugin count on the WordPress plugin directory, it tapped out at five, 5 million.

[01:19:19] Nathan Wrigley: I want to say it was 5 million. Yep. So if you had more than 5 million, it just said, nothing more than 5 million. and so a variety of plugins, for example, Yoast, that doesn't really do them justice, I don't think. if you've, got a giant company and it's doing really great work, it's nice to get that little pat on the back, right?

Anyway, now you go up to 10 million, which from what Tako said, doesn't even. reach the limits of where yours should be. It needs to go a little bit further north than that. But I think this is quite a nice gesture. It looks as though it wasn't a difficult thing to implement, but honestly, tacho for a company like yours, do you think it'll have some kind of knock on, does it add a little bit of kudos to the company if you know it's Yeah.

10 million, not 5 million, right? Puts you in like the elite of the elite in that sense. that's the thing, if you now go to the plugins on wordpress.org, and you go to, do you want me to do that? You have a browser? Yes. You can do this wordpress.org/plugins, see if I can spell that. Yep. I seem to be able to, it's such a nice design now.

I love it. Yeah, you have to block enable, but if you scroll down a little further, there will be featured plugins and if you see all, yep. I think this can be ordered by. Yeah. Wasn't there a It's most plugins, there's another category. I think it's that. I think it's another category that says most popular plugins.

Where am I going then? Should I have seen? Yeah, one step back. Go back. Thank you. Yeah. Sorry. Go down. I think so. Popular, plugins. There you have it. There you go. so if you click see all, because now you only see four and it's everyone's on 10 million. Yeah, that's right. But if you scroll down a little bit, then you see that it's actually just four plugins who free.

[01:21:18] Taco Verdonshot: Wow. 10 plus million. Wow. And that the gap to the number five, number numbers five is at least 3 million. That. So actually when you look at this, I'm going, I've just clicked back, right? So now I'm on, the plugins directory, vanilla. I'm, into the section called Popular Plugins. That really helps your business there, that little selection there.

[01:21:48] Nathan Wrigley: The four what? Yeah, has it, have you noticed, I hope any sort of optic there recently since this all happened? No, I guess you were always in a mon I don't know. I dunno, I can't remember what the selection was before. I, think it's too recent to Okay. For us to see any changes yet. Yeah.

[01:22:05] Taco Verdonshot: so ask me again in about a month. Okay. but it definitely does allow us to show, yeah, how big we really are. Nice. And, and it's there, it's been there for a few, days now, I think. So it goes up to 11. It doesn't, it goes up to 10 million. hot drama, straight in, the classic plug plugin, the classic editor plugin, is one of the four plugins with 10 million plus installs.

[01:22:37] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, there was bound to be some fruity, interesting story in there. Wasn't the, classic editor plugin is basically disabled. Gutenberg and obviously that's some people's back, but, we're not getting into that today. We've done that story before. Okay, thanks. It also shows, yeah, thanks. No, but he's right though.

There it is. And I did see it on social media. I think a few people were. Interested to see that was right up there and who knows what the number is there. We just know it's 10 million plus. But, anyway, that was interesting. What I do think, Nathan, and that's one thing I want to point out, is how incredibly impressive it is for contact form seven to be in here.

[01:23:17] Taco Verdonshot: Yeah. Yeah. that is a, single developer, it's not a team, it's not a commercial product. Yeah. classic editor is a different beast, but between Yost Elementor and Contact Form seven, is the, only completely free product. It's, this is, it's single maintainer building a huge thing.

Yeah. That's absolutely phenomenal. Yeah. That really is amazing. I think everybody knows about that plugin, don't they? Everybody's heard of contact form Burnley. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Okay. I'm sorry, but we're gonna have to move on very quickly. Where did we get to? So we did that one. we are very short of time, but I want to give Tacho a little bit of time because, why not?

[01:24:05] Nathan Wrigley: this isn't Tacho, actually. This is, somebody that Tacho knows. It's Marika Vander Act, who is the, was the, was the CEO of Yos, but stepped away a little while ago. what a, what do we think? 18 months? Something like that. Tcho roughly, almost, yeah. Okay. About that. Yeah. And, lovely little article here.

All about what I'm sure we've all suffered with, procrastination. Sitting there and realizing that you filled out a survey online. I can't remember what it was, but it was something that clearly, is very banal and really didn't occupy very many useful minutes of your time and all about her, what she's doing, which includes.

not only why she thinks she procrastinates, but also, a hint at a, possible product coming your way soon. I think probably with her husband, who's also called Yost, but spelled differently. and it looks like they've got something called Progress or Progress Planner. it just says our new plugin will launch soon and, that, let's hope it is soon and not like in eight years time.

'cause they both just got totally procrastinated and forgot to, gotta do it. That would not be a good deal. I regret those words already, but it was a good joke. but anyway, this article is [email protected] and it'll be the one from the 31st. Yeah. And, it's interesting because she's speaking on this topic at Wamp Europe.

[01:25:35] Taco Verdonshot: Yeah. So I have high hopes that the coming soon might, actually be. Oh, coming like real soon. Oh, that soon. Ah, okay. I, have high hopes. Is that a euphemism for, I've got a little bit of a back. Back. Okay. I wish. No, but it is a problem that I'm struggling with. So if they have a solution, then I'm interested.

I'll tell you what, working from home, which it looks like, you look like Teka. You might be in an office. I'm not entirely sure. Yeah, I, everything at home and I have days where it all just flies. Everything happens exactly as I would wish it to. And then I have other days where it's like, what did I do?

[01:26:19] Nathan Wrigley: I stroke to the cat and read a book and, that kind of thing. And I've just learned to forgive myself and realize that's just part of my nature, but I could do better. So if there's a plug in for that, I'll take it. I'll take it. Tammy. Courtney, anything on that? No, I'm not sure plugin's gonna save you, but a plugin may assist a little bit.

[01:26:43] Tammie Lister: yeah. One of the benefits I've found is having a workspace away from your home. So I actually have to like, walk across the patio, even like that, like going to work in the morning. That like mental space helps me. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Giving yourself a, the commute as it were, whatever your version of commute is, something that Ha Hazel, mpo.

[01:27:06] Courtney Robertson: What shared when I worked at the events calendar, was that she took a walk around the block to make herself have a commute to the office, which happened to be where she started her walk. But beside the point, my dad used to, my dad used to change his shoes. He wore smart shoes. 'cause he worked from home.

[01:27:24] Nathan Wrigley: It works. That was all I packed. I have a bag that I take just across the patio, so I have oh, okay. So it's like a full Yeah. Seriously. Like I have a work bag that I take to work. Yeah. And it falls my brain into thinking I'm doing a day of work. That's fascinat a child, but it works. The added impact though of the shoes was that everybody in the family knew that he was at work as well.

'cause he could just look at the shoes and so it was like, okay, he's off limits for being dad. The same with me. I get my bag, I come in, I work. Right space and I'm not gonna be interested in my workspace. Interesting. Interesting. Roger, Williams. I don't know that we've had Roger before, but nice to see you, Roger.

And he's, CF seven contact form seven. And I'm guessing it's so small, but I think that's, I'm hoping it's go, I'm hoping. Latest call time Roger Form seven also at Lama, also at. Roger was also with us at Montclair. I see a whole lot of Montclair attendees, which is delightful. Oh, Roger, that's nice. Is at Kinta and I, we commiserate and share together ideas around, helping our stakeholders get on board with contributing more and more to WordPress.

[01:28:30] Courtney Robertson: Oh, nice. Nice talk dashboard. You for Rob. I'm pretty sure it's a goat. Anyway, I think that's probably what we're saying. Greatest of all time. Yes. contact form seven says Cameron included in 99% of theme forest themes, which helps Interesting too. And nice idea. I guess we're talking about how to adapt to where you work.

[01:28:50] Nathan Wrigley: gives me some whooo. Got vibe for the points earning system. Oh, maybe, I don't know. they built a plugin that it's like a Tamagotchi, but it's Wpu that if you log into your WordPress site in the admin dashboard, I haven't installed it yet, but you could. give yourself points basically by taking care of your WaPo, by being, oh, adulting doing the things about.

[01:29:14] Courtney Robertson: Getting into the work zone. Got it, Okay. Yeah, yeah. Tamagotchi, that thing, that was procrastination heaven for me when I was a kid, I could pour hours into that little egg. I have something on here on my watch that reminds me to have water. Oh. So that's my vibe. Yeah. Okay. It's a little that I have to drink.

[01:29:31] Nathan Wrigley: I just, I, yeah. I'm the same. I don't drink anywhere near enough, but, okay. We're running out of time, but there's a few things to, in fact, we have run out of time. Do we need to end? Does anybody mind if we go on for a couple more minutes? I'm good. You're all good? We're good. Okay. We'll go on for a few more minutes, but we will keep it tight.

I'm gonna put into the show notes just a couple of articles, but we won't dwell on them. this was one, it's a Max Techmark article. He's an MIT scientist, all about AI and how it's gonna be the end of us all, and we need to be mindful. However, this one, is an interesting one. This falls under my intuition of sustainability, not to do with WordPress, but, just our fascination by doing all the things now with an AI bot or, going to chat GPT and, all of that.

And my understanding is that the, CPU cycles necessary to get an AI to give something back is. A lot. It's way more than like a Google search or something. And so we're blindly walking into a, tech dystopia where the thing that we love about the internet is also consuming so much electricity.

Which, I think unless you really are a different person, to me, we can all accept that global warming is the thing. And so this article was all about that. And I think Tacho you wanted to bring up something about this. Was it you or was it somebody? I think Courtney. Courtney. Apologies. Was it you, Courtney?

no. I, I know that, in the early days of AI rolling out, I saw both Taco and Yost sharing about the AI fallout with the environment. Yeah. So it was me. Oh, I'm sorry, Tammy. Oh, no, we missed you. Sorry. Go ahead Tammy. Tell us all the thing before, just before Tammy says that. I'll just raise this one statistic just quickly.

It says, in 2018, one video on YouTube, which had 5 billion views, used up the same amount of electricity than it would, that it would heat to heat 40,000 US homes. that's actually mental, yeah, but that's 40,000 US homes in Texas. Yeah. Ah, in summer. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Anyway. Sorry, Tony, Tommy. Just kidding.

Just kidding. no, I think that's, also the point. It's about having some balance, about taking all this information. it's easy to go, like either direction, binary, but. Thinking like adoption of anything isn't gonna have an impact. It's like whatever you use is gonna take away from another resource.

[01:32:07] Tammie Lister: And trying to be, cautious about it is, the kind of interesting thing with these articles and trying to understand that something that's being very real to me. I live in the middle of countryside. I'm saying it's very real to me is you cannot ignore that. Seasons have changed. You cannot ignore the, Northern Lights happening, what, three or four times in a, in the space of a week, in Europe that's a little bit different and unexpected.

All these kind of things are happening. but we have to be aware of the balance of what do we gain in other areas with AI that. Is helping us. So a good example is the processing, for cancer data. and yeah, so things like that, that it's, been able to do so that then we gain in ever. So it's, that thing you can be like, it's not gaining some, and then it's very easy to have those balances.

And my natural instinct is try and reduce our output as much as we possible be green everywhere we can, but it's been holistically green. I think that's the best way to think about it. So thinking about where does the meter come in? and, that's like the best thing that I can say about things like this is don't think, oh, AI is therefore bad and horrible.

It's where can it be, like, where can it be saving us as much as possible? But you, that reaction you said is exactly the, when you see how fast it can process and the lives, it can actually save. Yeah, it's mental. Yeah, The whole, cancer research and, identifying tumors and things, and it can do things in a heartbeat that a surgeon can't do, if, even if he spends a week or two weeks looking at the same diagrams, that person just cannot do it.

[01:33:54] Nathan Wrigley: But, I think we're in the toy. AI is a toy at the minute. It's just workflows at the moment. It's done. Workflows. no. It's, sorry, I apologize. I, said what I wanted to say, but I, said it in the wrong way. What I mean is there are so many toy applications that are just like so much fun. Like I will write songs on an ai.

And it's just totally disposable. I'll listened to it once and I'll bin it and I've just wasted a load of energy and it, so it's a bit like going into the supermarket, but buying something with horrible packaging on it, plastic everywhere, as opposed to saying, actually, I'm not gonna buy that one. I'm just gonna steer clear of it.

But like the eighties where all the toys were made outta plastic. And then we went, ah, maybe all that plastic was killing everybody. And that pla and all the additives and everything was super bad and maybe we should have been using it for the right things. And turns out toys weren't the problem.

[01:34:46] Tammie Lister: 'cause play is awesome. Yeah. That's the thing that I, but it's, the addiction to the silly little things which are coming along and that's humans, the binge, we're addicted to silly things. The binge watching of YouTube and all those kind of things. It'd be nice if a browser had something built in, which gave me an intuition as to Mr.

[01:35:04] Nathan Wrigley: Wrigley. Today you have burned through three trees or you've produced, I don't know, can get extensions. Yeah. Remind you that you're being horrific. Okay. Okay. Yeah. He said running a live show on the internet. but we're not AI generated, so that saves a lot of money. are we, in the matrix?

[01:35:25] Courtney Robertson: Yeah. Yeah. Oh dear. Oh, no, I'm gonna think about this all night long as I go. That's right. love it. I think of it a lot of times, are we at least offsetting I, in America, we have a, an electric provider choice, and I recently switched that. The electric that my home uses is sourced from a provider that offsets the amount via sustainable methods, such as.

Solar energy. yep, Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So anyway, AI consumes lots of power. We can all be, cognizant of that now. Okay. A few more things, which I won't put up, so I'll just skip straight to this, so if there's time for this, we'll do it. Google, whoa. this is big. I think big, especially if you are Tacho and working in Tachos industry, but I confess, I know nothing about this story apart from the basic facts.

[01:36:23] Nathan Wrigley: tacho, just run us through what's gone on and I'll show the articles as you mentioned. Yeah. So really briefly, Mike King, who you're currently showing on screen and Rent Fishkin, are two people who are in SEO or used to be in SEO. They published, articles on an internal, a bit of internal documentation from Google that leaked.

[01:36:49] Taco Verdonshot: And, to be exact, it's a documentation for, a part of their warehouse. so I have to, I keep forgetting the full name. but it's a specific part on how Google storing some of its data that has leaked and that gives, it's the internal documentation. So there's a lot of, yeah, not my king, but my king indeed.

Michelle. Yeah. Honestly, that's what I heard as well, but I didn't say. Yeah, no. our king, Dutch king is into water management. It's completely different. And he's a pilot. no, but, so Mike and, and Brent have been publishing this and the full effects we'll have to see in the coming months. but so far, So who's quite a, famous SEO, has been gathering a document where all the articles published on this Google leak, are linked. And I think I shared the link with you as well, Nathan. You've got, we've got this one from Spark Toro. That'll be Ron Fishkins piece that's ran Fishkin. Yeah. and then also this, which is Yes.

Yeah. So a Google sheet. Yeah, it's a Google sheet. it's public anyway, because they make things public now. Yeah. but no, later is curating a list of all the articles that have been written, around this topic. and various, opinions differ, but. And really short summary is, that the, data warehouse leaked and not the, entire algorithm on how you are ranking, but that data warehouse, the documentational data warehouse, does give some insights into factors that are used or potentially used in how websites rank.

And what's super interesting is that some of the findings in that data, suggest that Googlers in the past may have adapted the truth. In some of their answers about ranking factors and what matters for ranking, oh, maybe conveniently left out bits. So there's a lot to digest. we're talking 14,000, attributes that have been leaked.

so there's a lot of data and there will be a lot of, of analysis happening in the next couple of months. Luckily, we've got Courtney, she'll be, I focus on.org. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely keep an eye on this list because, Alida will do an amazing job in. Keeping all the relevant articles in one overview.

[01:39:56] Nathan Wrigley: So this is a fairly breaking story, but you think this is a story that's gonna keep going for a little while as people make sense of the data and Yeah. Oh gosh. It really will be interesting. 'cause, that is their secret source, isn't it? that bit of nothing comes out of Google, about this, is their golden goose and, yes and no.

[01:40:17] Taco Verdonshot: So it's yes and no. Okay. It's not the algorithm that, defines, the, exact ranking. So it's not like we now know exactly what we have to do in order to rank first. but it's com combined with the, department of Justice information that was released in, all the court hearings a while ago, combined with this, gives a little bit more insight on where we should be focusing.

[01:40:49] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Okay. So we can be a little bit more saying It's not the end of the world for Google. We're not gonna be seeing Absolutely not toppling. No. That's their AI overview. Yeah, that's right. okay. So that's a really interesting story and I'm sure that we'll come back to it, but, possibly of more interest really is, is, tacho swimming in Amsterdam.

honestly. So what, are you doing? you're swimming, is it a fundraiser? What's going on? Yes, it is. Nice. so this is shameless self-promotion. Go on. actually, our general manager here at Jost, Kimberly Cole convinced me to, to join, because this is a swim to raise money for, a LS research.

[01:41:34] Taco Verdonshot: and a LS is a, degenerative neuro disease. Jesus Hard words in English. Yeah, sorry. But, so every year there's a city swim where people swim, just over two kilometers in the Amsterdam canals. also known as Heineken beer. And, yeah. To raise money for charity. So I decided to take the plunge and, do open water swimming, as well this year.

[01:42:06] Nathan Wrigley: Take the plunge. What a profound, that was great. Perfect use of that phrase. Okay. you can find it if you want to, if you want to sponsor Tacho, there's a donate button here. I won't press it just now, but, I will put, oh, okay. I will put the link into the show notes, but it is Amsterdam City swim nl slash fundraisers slash taco dash verdon shot.

And we will, I will put that into the show notes so you can go and click that button and look, do, a good thing. Much appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. and last but by no means Lee Shameless blog for Tammy. Here it is. what's this? I did mention this last a couple of weeks ago, and, Tim Nash was on and, and I think he did a better job describing it, than I did, but this is what, yeah, this came about because, I had a portfolio site and someone said to me, so yeah, what do you do?

[01:43:00] Tammie Lister: and, I. I have always tried to explain what I've been doing for people all along. And, this is me politicizing myself. so what I'm doing is offering plans, specifically, supporting people across the whole journey. WordPress has changed and that's, the reality and, something I've been working with people is, and it ranges from training to, going in maybe training on the, up and coming changes, or I've also worked in collaboration.

I. I've also just worked on guiding food cha, different changes. what I'm just doing is showing that you can kind, I'm up for working with different people, specifically around products, but I've also worked with a agencies as well, and it's just summarizing what I've been doing recently and giving an opportunity to collaborate with me.

[01:43:53] Nathan Wrigley: So you are flexible. It's not like one size fits all. There's only one way that Tammy does stuff. It's no, that's really what the guide training and collaborator comes down to and the form. So what I'm trying to do is explain what I've done in the past in this section. A little bit down where I've just done some of the things that I've done before for people.

[01:44:11] Tammie Lister: scroll down. Yeah, keep going. There we go. There you go. Past plans. So the idea of what I do is I just talk to someone, find out what they want, and we come up with a plan, and then from that plan we execute it. I am a such a believer in roadmaps. I even come up with a plan with the person and then we execute the plan with them.

[01:44:30] Nathan Wrigley: Nice. Yeah. so if you're interested, you've, heard Tammy on the show before. You know she's got a real heritage in WordPress space, and you're interested in taking her up on that kind offer. Press navigator. Com is this site, press navigator.com. And whilst you there, go and sponsor Tacho, for jumping in the sea.

enormous, danger to himself, I'm sure. don't swallow too much of that. Tacho. That's it, that's what we got time for. Have I missed anything? I think we got through it all in the end. I'm really sorry. It's gone on a lot longer than it usually does. I do apologize. I have no doubt ruined everything days.

[01:45:07] Tammie Lister: I still wanna know if tack any shots for that. Yeah. Swim because I feel he does. He's tack over on shot. Yeah. And on that bomb show. I know it's cringe worthy, Tammy, but this is the level I've stooped to since I became a father. Your humor level just whew. It just falls off a cliff, but I think it's hilarious.

[01:45:30] Nathan Wrigley: My kids just, anyway, there we go. That's all we've got time for. I would like to thank, all of you for commenting. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. I'd like to thank all of these people over here, for being on the show and being brilliant. I thought that was a really interesting episode actually.

There was a lot of nice stuff going on in there. And we're gonna call it a day, knock out in the head, but we'll be back not next week. 'cause we'll be, huh? Together. Yes, in to Reno. So I will see you three in the near future, but the rest of you will see you in a fortnight's time. Couple of weeks. Take it easy.

Oh, The hands. The hands. We've, I forgot this last week as well last time. Can we do me the hand? Yeah. Look at that. Everybody's doing the hands. Thank you so much. Take it easy. Bye. Bye for now. See you.