This Week in WordPress #313

[00:00:04] Nathan Wrigley: It's time for this week in WordPress episode number 313 entitled, there's a Michelle over there.

It was recorded on Monday the 4th of November, 2024. My name is Nathan Wrigley and I'll be joined today by three, mm, fabulous guests. I'm joined by Mark Westguard by Patricia BT and Corey Maass. And there's a sudden, slightly unexpected appearance from Michelle Frechette as well. Stay tuned for that.

It's a WordPress podcast. So, you know, we're going to talk about WordPress.

WordPress, 6.7, the release candidate is out. What's in there?

We also talk about the fact that there's a WordCamp happening at Romania in the near future. Also WordCamp Europe, we get into that and the fact that they are looking for a new venue for 2026.

We very briefly, very briefly touch on the WP drama of the moment.

We also talk about community events and the swag that will not be getting shipped out to those in the future.

We spend a long time talking about an article by Joost de Valk all about community and how that really is the driving force of the entire project.

We spend a little bit of time touching on some developer things as well, and about a new product called Command UI, which is taking over the WordPress space.

And probably the biggest slice is all about which browser you're using. And it turns out that I'm a bit of a pariah.

It's all coming up next on this week in WordPress.

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Actually out of breath. Um, just been, just been running around. Um, hello, hello, uh, this week in WordPress number 313. Uh, thank you for joining us. If you're joining us live, really appreciate it. Get onto the housekeeping bits in a minute of how you might comment and things like that. But, um, I just have to say the reason I've been running around is 'cause I've got some, um, I've got some builders in and they might be quite noisy, like really, really noisy.

And there's nothing I can do about it. If I want this work to happen. It's gotta happen. So if it gets really noisy, I'll try to pause my mic and, uh, all of that kind of stuff, but forgive the, which we'll probably start in a few minutes time, but anyway, there we go. That's out the way. So yeah, we're joined today by three fabulous guests.

Over, over there is, uh, Mr. West Guard. How you doing, mark? I'm doing good. How are you? Yeah, good. Yeah, really good. It's, um, it's a pleasure to have you on. Again, I'm just scrolling to your bio, your bio. Says, ah, what the heck? What? What the heck? What? Wait. No.

Oh, that's gonna be so weird on the audio, Michelle. Or at least what I think is that Michelle's there. It's here. Oh, look at that. That's so nice. Okay, so that's unexpected. Can she hear me? Can she hear me? Yeah. Oh, Michelle joining us as well. That's so nice. Okay, so for those, oh gosh, for those of you on the audio, what just happened was I was talking to Mark and about to introduce him and Michelle literally trundled past in the background like this.

It's kind of kind of weird. And I double took and then double took again. And there she is. How you doing Michelle? I'm good. We thought we would make her go slowly behind me. 'cause there was a very quick story. We, we all went to dinner once at a Word camp, and, uh, Michelle, uh, has a scooter and Nathan kindly offered to move the scooter to the back of the restaurant.

[00:05:14] Murk Westguard: And, uh. Accelerated, it was on the slowest mode possible. So we just saw Nathan very slowly going across the back of the restaurant. So we thought we'd do the same with Michelle, but Michelle comes for the weekend, so we thought we'd, uh, include her. I did wanna say, why are you in this different space? And now I know.

[00:05:32] Nathan Wrigley: Now I've got it. Oh, that's hap just you, Nathan, just to tell you. Absolutely fabulous. I'm so appreciative. And I was literally about to introduce Mark and Mark's bio says the following, not a sausage Tony and only Mark, and I know what that means. Um, and we'll leave it there. Michelle, I don't have your bio, but Michelle does everything everywhere.

All at once. Yeah. Um, everything everywhere. And she's at Meet michelle.online. How about that? We'll just go. There we go. That's perfect. That's, we need go that for today. Oh, that's lovely. You need to change your name now. Mark. Mark and Michelle. Oh yeah, Michelle. Something like that. Yeah, do that. Okay. So, uh, apologies for hijacking the audio like that, but, um, let's introduce some of the other people here, over there, down there on the screen.

At least for me anyway. Is Patricia, how you doing, Patricia? Great. Great. Thank you. Yeah, sorry about that. Uh, there we go. So, Patricia, let me do the proper intro. Patricia contributes to the WordPress project mostly by organizing events. We'll find out about that local and flagship. She likes to give back to WordPress for what it, for, what it allows for her to accomplish on her sites.

She contributes to the project for about 80 hours a month. Good grief and is partially sponsored by theme aisle for 20 hours a month, and I'm gonna mispronounce this. I apologize. Um, Jen. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you Jen. Double, uh, for two hours a month. Uh, I'll put it in the show notes. And she loves projects focused on community and human relationships.

Unlikes everything. Open source, which allows everyone to have their voices heard bloody neck, 80 hours a month. Gosh, I think that's more hours than I'm actually awake. Um, that's, that's, that's pretty impressive of my walking time. Wow. Gosh. I think you got a clap from, uh, from our third guest. Third of four.

Um, from Corey, who's right there. Corey, how are you doing, Corey? Mos, how's it going? Good. I'm just, I'm disappointed that now I, what I was hoping was Michelle would go behind Mark, go off screen and then like, go behind me somehow. Yeah, yeah. Day. And then just keep going over to Patricia. Where's, where's our mystery guest?

Like we we're all underperforming, aren't we? We don't have anybody to sort of show off in the background. Oh. Um, Corey's bio is, is nice and straightforward. It says Corey Mass, WordPress developer, creator of look at the t-shirts. Uh, O-M-G-I-M-G. Um, I, he's got the mugs. He's got swag. Double double swag.

[00:07:57] Corey Maass: Double double swag. Very, yeah. Yeah. I'm, yeah, I know. Sorry. I noticed you were like, hello? Yeah, you paused. Before you sip I noticed may, maybe you can remove the. Reverse mirror my video so we can read Oh, yeah. In the settings, Corey, that's true actually in the settings, there's a, a way of, I think mirroring or, or mirroring the, yeah.

[00:08:18] Nathan Wrigley: 'cause your logo at Yeah, they're not. It looks the right way. All right, then I then, I'm not a fan of Wave video 'cause they should mirror it for me, but not for this is, this is a developer speaking. Of course. Okay. Here's how they should update this. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Um, yeah. Anyway, there we go.

We have our panelists plus one. We have four of us. Four. Well, five. Four. Four additionals and, uh, Michelle and Mark. There we go. Ws foreman, Stella, WP. That's brilliant. Right? Okay. Now the housekeeping, we're like 10 minutes in and we're just onto this bit. Um, if you would like to contribute, please, please do.

The best way to do that is head over to wp builds.com, uh, and then go forward slash live. And if you do that, you'll be able to, uh, see what we're doing over there. And it's a, it's an embedded, um, video from the platform, from Wave. And if you want to comment and you're happy logging into Google, there's a box on the right, a chat box on the right.

Feel free to use that. Or if you go into the video itself, there's a little black bottom top right says something like live chat. And, uh, that way you don't need to be logged into anything. You just type your name in and, uh, and you can chat. Um, we'd love that. If you want to do that, that'd be really appreciated.

And it looks like a few of you have done that already. Not too many. That's great. We can manage that this morning. So the first one up is James, James Lau joining us and saying, good morning. Thank you very much. Uh, friendly web guy. Bob the builder. We can fix it. Bob the builder. Oh, it what? Oh yes. Right. Yes, it is gonna be noisy and there's nothing I can do about it.

I'm gonna rely on the, the beauty of noise cancellation, which won't manage it, but it'll hopefully manage a bit of it. Courtney's joining us. She's cleaning the desk, changing out writing while tuning in today. Thank you very much. And the slow creep. It was amazing. Yeah, that feels like, actually, Michelle, I dunno if you saw, I, I guess you posted it, uh, the video on Twitter where you suddenly emerged as, as me.

Yes. Um, it felt like that, it felt like that all over again. So that was really nice. Live TV at its best. A hand hand wave from Elliot, a hand wave from Bigot joining us from Germany. Patricia Rocks, she said. Oh, thank you. Um, yeah, and then, hello also from New Orleans is Michelle Hoffer. So yeah, WP builds.com/live.

Over there you'll find a bits and pieces that we do. Let's just do a quick demo of what that looks like. Here we are. Um, if you're over here, just a, just a quick mention of our sponsors that keep this show and the other ones that we do going, we've got GoDaddy Pro. We've got Bluehost and we've got Omnis send.

If you end up on any of their properties, do mention that you heard about them on WP Builds. That's really helpful. And if you would like to stay in touch with what we do, uh, put your email address into here and click the blue subscribe button and we'll send you two emails a week. Okay. The other thing to mention is that, let's go here first.

We started a new show with Bigot. Not that bigot, the other bigot, or is it the other? I don't know. One of the bigots, uh, bigot Pauly Hack joined me last week to talk about the core of WordPress. We're starting this whole series of new shows and bigot is I think number five in those. And every quarter we're gonna talk about what's happened in the last period in WordPress call.

And so if you go to archives, WP Builds podcast. It'll be the first episode there. We're on episode number 396 there, and she and I chat about all the different piece bits and pieces that have been happening. Um, and I think that's it. I think that's probably all I've got to say with that. So let's crack on with what's going on at the moment.

Um, I don't think you as contributors probably gonna have a lot to say about this, so if you do, just interrupt me at the end, but if you don't, I'll just move on to the next piece. This is just to say that if you follow the WordPress code base, uh, religiously, like many of us do, uh, 6.7 release candidate two is now available for your dilatation.

Uh, probably the easiest way, and we'll talk a bit, little bit more about this later, is to install it via playground and you can just click on a few links to get it going. If you're a plugin author, theme author, I don't know, you create some blocks or something like that, then I guess it's always a good idea to, uh, to monitor what's happening in these release candidates prior to 6.7 dropping.

At the end of the month. Um, I know that both Corey and Mark, you are both, uh, developers of plugins. Do you do all this stuff? Do you like religiously test it or do you just basically leave it until the very final release candidate? What do you do? I usually install it, uh, as it's being released and, mm-Hmm.

[00:12:54] Murk Westguard: Just, you know, I, I do formal testing obviously before it goes live, but I kind of just develop with it in the background to see if there's any problems. Um, but, uh, so far so good. It's been, it's been good. Um, there's some new stuff in this version about the data views, which I'm interested to, to look into.

'cause I've been working with, uh, Z Katz with Data grid Oh yeah. That product. And, um, interesting to see where they're going with that. That's eventually gonna power a lot more of WordPress, I think, um, in terms of lists within the admin. So, um. That's the part I'm keeping up with. But lot, lots of stuff in this release.

Quite, quite a few new toys. Is Zach's project, is that a thing that he's giving away? Is that like a commercial product? Would you, uh, are you looking to use that within your product? I. Yeah, so I, I've had lots of people ask him to put form submissions on the front end. Okay. And Zach and I met in, it was working at Europe last year, I think.

[00:13:47] Nathan Wrigley: Mm-Hmm. Um, and he told me about his new data grid product and we spoke about it and we've got it all implemented now. So, um, I think he's still waiting for the plugin to be approved. I'm not quite sure where he is with it. I'll have to check up on, on that with him, but, okay. So that would allow you, without like a post management add-on, which I know you do, you'd be able to sort of take the form filled fields and then just display them in Yeah.

In a grid or, oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Natively without needing Yeah. Using the actual native WordPress Right. Native use component. So that's quite cool. Yeah. They wouldn't need a CF or something like that. Yeah. Ah, you could use a F with it. Yeah. Or you could use any, any of the other custom field plugins, but, um, yeah, it can display anything in a row.

[00:14:28] Murk Westguard: Yeah. What about you, Corey? Do you keep up to date with these release candidates? Uh, un interestingly, I do exactly what Mark does. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Let's see. I install it, I install it as we go. But like, you know, basically it's, it for me, I, a couple of things, like when I'm de, when I'm thinking about products to build, I rather intentionally have never built a product that in, that interacts that much with WordPress.

[00:14:53] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Because this kind of, these kind of updates scare me. And so I kind of like flowed off to the side, like, you install my stuff inward press and it integrates a little bit, but I don't, I don't, I intentionally don't have to pay a lot of attention to these kinds of updates. 'cause I've had projects and, and products in the past where I was constantly having to chase core updates and it drove me crazy.

[00:15:16] Corey Maass: So it's at least one of the, for me, it's one of the considerations that I, I keep in mind when choosing products. But, so yeah, I, I develop, you know, the next update with it running on my machine kind of just to spot check and then before I release, then it goes through a much more thorough. Okay. You know, uh, testing system.

Okay. Ding. Yeah. Thank you. Um, yes, just I don't know, somebody's, some little noise happened there. Dunno whose that was, but, um, ambiguous. I'll turn it off. Yeah, turn it off. I can comment on the Please do, please do, Patricia. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, uh, part of the contributor mentorship program, the cohort three. Uh, we have a lot of mentees and we took them to the tests, uh, for the better release and, uh, release candidate.

[00:16:06] Patricia BT: So it was, uh, great. Also, I'm part of a sub cohort in, uh, for the French mentees. So we show them how to test during the release party, so the updates, and then you try to create a page, create a post, and stuff like that. So this is also a big, uh, thing because the contributor mentorship program is usually synced with, um, major release.

So it's interesting to have, um. The, the, the one who contribute to, to core is one thing and then all the other people can just test Mm-Hmm. And help with that. So, so many moving parts in a project this size. But, uh, yeah, really cool to get that perspective. Thank you. Um, okay, so that is WordPress 6.7, release candidate two, just to say, you know, if you are not testing, it sounds like everybody else is.

[00:16:54] Nathan Wrigley: So, you know, get on with it. And Courtney's very, uh, very pleased that you are, she says as much right here. I love that you're testing your plugins against the release mark. Yay Ann. And not, not a last bit rush at the end. Yeah, yeah. Indeed, indeed. Uh, the other bigot, the bigot, the, the first bigot a second big, I don't know.

Uh, having a day off, sitting on the balcony and enjoying the sun and the colorful trees, that's nice. And, uh, need a way to better distinguish all the bigots. I'm gonna leave you to, uh, to figure that out for yourselves. Uh, okay, let's go back. Speaking of plugins. This is kind of, I don't, I don't really know where this fits in the jigsaw puzzle of WordPress, but I caught sight of this.

I can't remember where it might have been in Remus newsletter. Um, and this is experimental core features. We're looking on the screen at GitHub repo, so github.com/wordpress. It's the WPO Experiments plugin, and this is plugin closures Reason. So this adds a, this would add a will, add a, uh, this plugin is closed notice under each plugin on the plugins, uh, page of your WordPress website.

And there's a little screenshot here where they're showing that this plugin has been closed on, and in this case it says the 2nd of October, 2015 and is no longer available for installs. I, I'm guessing at the moment, although I'm not a hundred percent sure, that if a plugin basically stops being worked on at the moment.

It just sits in a state in your WordPress website and we've got no indication that anything has happened. So I dunno how this works in terms of how do you alert the repo that your plugin is no longer being, uh, maintained. I dunno if it's just a thing which, uh, clocks after a number of months or years or what have you.

Anyway, let's just imagine that that scenario is now possible and in the future you'll be able to say, look, this plugin is, I'm no longer interested in it. It's out of date. I'm never gonna update it. That I think is kind of a, a neat thing to know, uh, on the plugin screen. Mm-Hmm. It's kind of useful to know, no, this, I need to go and look for another one, basically.

So your thoughts on that, a neat feature, a bit of a quality of life thing. It's not really gonna change anybody's life. But anyway, there you go. So if you've got any thoughts, I just, I just wanna point out my interpretation of this, if you scroll up, is that this is a plugin that is going to continue to iterate with like the way that Gutenberg was originally a plugin.

Yeah. And then is added to core that this plugin WordPress experiments is going to change, but is going to start introducing these different concepts versus like the feature you're talking about. I think the intention is to take it out of this plugin and put it into core right. Um, so I just, it's to me, to me there, it's a no-brainer that we should all get notices that a, that a plugin is out of development.

[00:19:43] Corey Maass: I actually, I also noticed this from re's REM kisses. That's an interesting way to, anyway. Um, never thought the news. The newsletter of REM Kiss. Yeah, that was, there you go. Um, uh, that I did not, I hadn't seen this plugin before. And the fact that there is a, the idea that there is a plugin that will continue to, to introduce new experiments, I think is a really, really cool.

Way to approach this rather than having 'cause of, I think traditionally, like there are essentially branches, um, you know, or there's ways to get, you know, the experimental new versions of WordPress where they're, they're testing these things as opposed to, like, for a lot of people installing a plugin, they know how to install a plugin.

So here's a plugin that you can install and kind of keep an eye on, you know, the new interesting things that are coming down the, down the road. So I, I was, uh, almost more interested in. The plugin itself then Yeah. Than the feature. Yeah. The idea of experimental things inside of a plugin that would then hopefully make it to core.

[00:20:49] Nathan Wrigley: But, um, like this is the, like we know Mark drives, you know, a Honda Civic, but this is the sports package with the spoiler and the 22 inch rims and the racing stripes. Right, right. And so like, people can, can test this kind of stuff. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't, I, I've basically landed on a set of plugins that I use on absolutely everything.

And, and they, the reason I've chosen them is because I know the developers are in it for the long term, and I know that they update often. So I'm, I'm never presented with a plugin screen, which isn't constantly getting updates. I can't think of a single plugin that I've got that isn't updated frequently.

So I, I basically, what I'm saying is I never experienced that whole, oh gosh, that hasn't been updated in a while. It always seems to happen, but I'm, I'm also thinking, you know, if you are. I'm familiar with WordPress. Having some sort of knowledge about the length of time it hasn't been updated is kind of interesting.

And certainly if you can opt in to say, look, I'll keep it on the repo for historical reasons, but I'm not gonna do anything with it. Basically it's now defunct. That seems like a good flag to let everybody know, you know, uh, go find something else essentially. Um, I have a question though. Yeah. If this plugin stops being updated, will it report on itself?

Oh, that's interesting. That's very meta. Yeah. Yeah. It's like when you get a metal detector, which detects itself a little bit of inception there. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I don't know is the answer, but imagine it could just keep reporting endlessly and really quickly. Um, I don't know. But that's a, that's a good point.

Um, let's see what we got as comments. Performance lab. Uh, same as the performance plugin, I guess, which, thank you, Jerome. Um, and then he goes on to say performance lab. He means. Um, oh, uh, this is helpful. Matt Madero says, uh, the Possessive Remus is Mki. There you go. One Remus, multiple Reky. I like it. Oh, I'm sorry.

Mku. No, we know. Yeah. No. Is that true or has Matt just made that up? I think he made it up, but I don't. Okay. Anyway, so there's that, which I think is really interesting. Like I say, little quality of life thing, but it's a, another nice little metric. And then there's this, and honestly, every time I've tried to play these videos in my browser, for some reason it all just fails.

They're all little web m and I have limited success ever getting those things to work. Um, but basically, I'm gonna link to this in the show notes. It's another GitHub, GitHub issue, and it's from, uh, D Monad, uh, I guess D de Monad. And, um, and it's posting. The, the state of play, their version, if you like, of collaborative editing, which seems to have gone really quiet about, I don't know, two years ago I was talking about it all the time.

I kept mentioning it like, you know, like Google Docs for, for WordPress. That whole thing seems to have got hijacked by, I don't know, full site editing and a bunch of other things. Um, but if we can get some of this video working, let me just click play and we'll just sort of hope for the best. It, it seems to sort of bulk out at about 10 seconds or something.

No, look, it got to two seconds and died. Now let's press play again and it just starts again. And this time it's carrying on. Okay. So essentially what you're seeing is the ability to edit on one screen and it appear, it's not quite Google Docs in that it, it's definitely not one-to-one mm-Hmm. Somebody's typing on one side and then maybe five or six seconds later 10 characters get updated all at once.

But then they go on to show, uh, in a further video how you can interact with this in the database. So they open up the database in PHP, my admin and then modify the, the post content in the database and then it gets updated on the different screens and what have you. So it's kind of interesting, different ways that you can do things.

But again, the reason that I'm raising this isn't to do with where we're at specifically. It was more about like, did this get forgotten about? Is this still part of phase three? I think it probably is, but it definitely has got put on the, the back shelf. Uh, interestingly, the person that's taken this on this de Monad, um, says, now where is it?

Da, something about them being very new. Here we go. Uh, thanks for all your input. I'm new to WordPress and PHP and Guttenberg, so, uh, not a lot to work. There's a lot to jump on. Uh, but when we, when we spoke before we clicked record, I think some of you had the intuition that maybe this was somebody that, uh, has a bit of a background with this kind of technology, collaborative editing and things like that.

Anyway, I'll link to it in the show notes. Does anybody wanna talk about collaborative editing, or are we all, all I'll say is this, this is a really, really complicated problem to solve with any platform. And I think one of the things that this, uh, user highlights is that one of the hurdles is just the fact of the, the, you know, the way Gutenberg is written or any, or any editor, not just Gutenberg, that you have to modify parts of it to get it to work in this, uh, collaborative way.

[00:25:44] Murk Westguard: So it's, um. It is a, it's gonna be a steep mountain to climb. And, um, I wish them all the best. Yeah. I, I kind of feel that the, the experience that we're used to with Google Docs is so sublimely reliable. Yeah. That anything other than exactly that is gonna be a complete fail. Do you, do you know what I mean?

[00:26:04] Nathan Wrigley: Like, the expectation has been set there if it doesn't work a hundred percent of the time and update in more or less instant real time. One of, of the differences here between Google and WordPress is you've got two sites running, well, two people logging into, it's a self hosted server, right. Basically.

Right. So you're not, you don't have, you can push Yeah. You don't have the luxury of a huge Google data center in the background. You know, do this almost in real time. So, uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it should be possible. So, uh, can you imagine like the stuff that's going on in the background, the millions of dollars of servers that are going on in the background, which make that little simple Google Doc Yeah.

Happen. Get it. So you sort take it for granted. Whereas your like $2 99, uh, shared hosting server, which you also anticipate because it's on the internet, it says collaborative editing. Um hmm. One, maybe, maybe two. But when you get into like three or four people editing at the same, I don't know. I just feel like this is, they've bitten off a lot and let's hope that these people can, uh, yeah, yeah.

Figure his out. The, um, I mean, yeah, like I had, I had to solve this, this sort of problem with one of my, the, the side project that I talked about, um, at Word Camp, US plug, plug, everybody should go watch that video. But, um, after they watched Michelle's, hers was better, but, uh. But it's like the, the, the tech is, like, I had, I had to code around how WordPress does native, like native sinking of data.

[00:27:39] Corey Maass: Um, because it, it just, it weighs too much. Like if you've got too much, too pinging, pinging, pinging, looking for updates, and I think that's why you're seeing chunks. Mm-Hmm. Um, you know, then it's, it's just gonna, again, you're, you're, you're, I rely on a third party service that I right have to pay for. And so two people on a, on a $2 host, not using a third party, I think are gonna have.

Issues with this? Yeah, I, I did kind of wonder if this would be like a, like an add-on almost, you know, you pay, I don't know, let just use the word jet pack for want of a better word. You know, like a jet pack, add-on where you, you buy a, I don't know, some access to a server somewhere that can do the heavy lifting just for the full site editing piece.

[00:28:23] Nathan Wrigley: Um, not the actual, you know, the website itself, but just that can sync all of those synchronous sessions. Uh, who knows. Oh, and also another solution, which was suggested like a year ago, was that it would be a sync by block. So it wouldn't try to sync the entire interface. It would just, I don't know, somebody's interacting with this paragraph.

Okay. Let's just get in on that one and we'll sync that paragraph. Then if somebody does another paragraph, then we'll, we'll go into their, uh, web friendly guy. Is this. Is this Dave? I can never remember who web friendly guy is. I'm so sorry. Um, could use web sockets to send data directly to other users and avoid the server's.

Dave Gray. Yeah. Thank, oh, Dave Gray. Thank you. I, I thought it was, uh, then one server needs to hit save just the handshake so it's not coming on the screen, but I'll read it. Uh, so one user knows the other is on the page. Yeah, the, the, I guess all anything that's not Google Docs though, just feels like a Kluge, doesn't it?

If it doesn't have that, the whole thing happening at the same time and everything updating with 20 people all going on at once, but boy, it was, it was my, when, when this was real being talked about a lot, a few years ago, I, there were, my recollection is there were already a couple of plugin services in the space Yeah.

[00:29:38] Corey Maass: That were, again, were those add-ons because that way they could then. Subsidize or bolster the tech behind it or whatever. Yeah. Which made a lot of sense to me. I also, I, this, this may be a little cynical, but it, to me, it, this also, it feels a little like a, a tech for tech's sake or, or keeping up with the Joneses.

Like, I, I wonder how much, I think this is great as an add-on, because there are definitely going to be big editing news sites that want this, want collaboration like a Google Doc. But for the vast majority of WordPress. Site owners to add, add this much overhead, um, and add this much tech. I wonder how much it, it actually get used.

[00:30:25] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that's an interesting point. You know, it's a lot of overhead in marketing, both in marketing all the time, right? So like, constantly like putting up an article and somebody else says, let me know when you're out of it so that I can, you know, add this and that and, and, um, and somebody else says, uh, you know, I, I just need to add these things or can you proof it now?

[00:30:43] Michelle Frechette: And like, well, you gotta get out of it before Yeah. Get out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those kinds of things. I think it would be, be used more than you might think. Yeah. In those, fair enough, in those larger, um, I don't know, papers, newspapers, for want of a better word, where there could be 20 people who've got their hands on it.

[00:30:57] Nathan Wrigley: Being able to see that at the same time I use this. Fabulous service back in the day. And, and it, it stopped, um, working like three or four years ago and it was a, it was an export from Google Docs plugin, and I don't, I can't quite remember how it worked. There was some kind of API connection somewhere, but you worked in Google Docs and then somebody would say, okay, that's it with Don, and you'd click a button in the Google Docs interface and it would bring everything over.

Perfectly into the block editor. Uh, so it would recognize every single bit of formatting heading strike through paragraphs, images, the lot. And it worked really well, but obviously it went out business, so there couldn't have been too much. I, I wanna open O-M-G-I-M-G tomorrow morning and open all, like, edit all the pages at once so that when Corey goes in he is like, I can't do anything.

[00:31:44] Michelle Frechette: Michelle's with all the pages. Yeah, that's it. If only there was something to fix this, only there was a thing. Yeah. Anyway, it seems like that's spiteful at all. Lovely. No, no, not at all. Um, it does seem like a thing that has been bitten off where maybe it's more than we can chew, but let, let's see. Anyway, I will link to that in the show notes and you can watch the videos more successfully than I have.

[00:32:06] Nathan Wrigley: I don't quite know, but as soon as this, um, the wave. Platform comes on. Somehow it manages to interrupt and it, the videos won't work, but you can see it, you can see conflict resolution, you can see how quickly the things, uh, interact and so on and so forth. Okay. So Nathan, once you say in this show, we can interrupt each other, right?

Say again? Uh, you once say that, uh, in this show we can interrupt each other. Yes. Right? Okay. Because I, I didn't there and I had something to say to the. Previous news about the experiment. So yes. As say Corey or Mark, I don't know exactly. So some experiments are going to come into that plugin, and then when it's all tested and good, it goes to the core and a new experiment can be added.

[00:32:54] Patricia BT: And on that feature that you, you have shown that first experiment about, um, this plugin is not anymore in the repository, um, I actually use a plugin called WP Vulner vulnerability, I just can't pronounce it. WP Vulnerability. And, uh, with that, you, you, you have a full list of, uh, where there has been, um, um, ah, what's the word again?

Uh, ah, help me. Uh, malware, um, yes, uh, yes. Um, compromised or something. Yeah, that, yeah. Yeah. I mean like submitted like to patch stack or, or stuff. And also you see the last. The dates of the last update. Oh, that's nice. Okay. So that's, that's interesting. And I, uh, I, I, I gave a, a, a lightning talk last year in Italy about it.

I have, uh, a site that I called Crash Test. It's a multi-site running on beta, and I have 500 plugins in it. And, and so I can see every vulnerability or even date, so I can sort by last update dates, you know? Yeah. So I can, I, I have a, a view of everything that can be installed, uh, either in one of my site or my customer site.

So that's. Pretty interesting. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And do honestly, do feel free to, uh, to interrupt. No, no big deal. That, that's how this show works best, I think is when we all kind of talk over each other and things. So, yeah. Um, okay, so that's that experimental plugin plus the, um, collaborative editing.

[00:34:32] Nathan Wrigley: Let's kind of move on from there. Let's put the screen back on. Let me see if I can find it. Okay, so, um, I mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, but, uh, coincidentally this works really well. This serves two purposes. The first one is to mention WordCamp, uh, Romania, which is coming up in 10 days time. If you're in that part of the world and you're into WordPress and you don't have tickets, it might be worth exploring.

Um, I don't wanna see, know a great deal about the event, but, um, hero Press have got an article about it. And I interviewed Tofa from Hero Press the other day, and you can see by this great big donate to help hero press button. Um, they are currently seeking a round of funding to make the Hero Press project sustainable for the next period.

So if you've enjoyed hero press articles, and they, they're great. They go into a, a particular community member from really all over the world. And it's so, it's not just focused on North America and Europe, it really is all over the place and often in, uh, other languages than English. Um. I think it's a worthwhile subject.

So yeah, go and donate to Hero Press, but also check out the article, uh, about Word Camp Romania. You can see where it's happening and who's involved and all of that kind of stuff. Uh, anything to add before I move on? Make sure you subscribe to his emails too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's real, honestly, it's like the, you know, over the last few weeks we've had this whole thing going on in WordPress, which we're not gonna get into, but that.

This every time one of these drops, it genuinely gives you the, it gives you the reason why you're still interested. Yep. Because there's people out there, ordinary people doing extraordinary and sometimes ordinary things in the same way that you remember why you got into WordPress. Mm-Hmm. It wasn't about lawsuits and about fighting for venture capital and all that.

It was about putting pixels on a page and having a nice time at meet ups and things like that. And, and it makes you remember that and it makes you re recognize that this freely available piece of software can genuinely change people's lives. Mm-Hmm. And literally change people's lives. You know, they go from, in some cases really scrambling around trying to figure out what to do with their lives and suddenly.

They attend a word camp or something like that, and they have meaning, and they find a job, and they find a career and they find friends, and it's just lovely. So I call it relentlessly optimistic hero press. That's what that is. It's just relentlessly optimistic. It's lovely. Uh, hero press.com. This came out on the 29th of October, so go check it out.

[00:37:02] Patricia BT: And while you are on Evans, maybe you want to bring the last tab and, uh, not, not on your browser tab. Ah, and talk now. Yeah. Good. A bit the same then Yeah, let's do it now. Good point. Yeah. Okay. I actually decided last Friday to attend, and it's this, this week, uh, because I had a look at the attendees page and it's always like that for me.

For Evan, it's who, who will be there. Uh, initially I thought, you know, I'm not a dev. So Core will, there will be only talks about core. And it's not only not really my, my area, but then you look at the attendees page and see so many friends. And that's what you just said, you know, I am, I, I keep meeting people that I, that I love that I made a lot of friends in the, in the WordPress community.

Um, some even dear, very dear friends, so. I decided to go. Nice. Gosh, there is a lot, isn't there? I'd, um, I confess this event. We mentioned it the other week, but I confess it's not one that, um, is on my radar for an attendee, but, um, so this is, um, uh, Rome. Yes. Um, what's the dates? Oh, there we go Perfectly. This Friday.

[00:38:19] Nathan Wrigley: Saturday. This Friday. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and also I love the, the Italian community. I have been to world camps in, uh, Milano, Torino, and Verona for, for years. I mean, Milano and, uh, and Torino for years. Verona first time last year, and. The Italian community is so, so warm, so welcoming. I, I love them. Nice. Mm-Hmm.

[00:38:40] Patricia BT: I'm really much looking forward to, to be there. Okay. So this is events.wordpress.org/rome/ 2024 slash Core Day. So if you are into the core of WordPress, um, and you're in Rome or wanna go to Rome, you've got a few days left. It does still say tickets, so I presume that button's there because there are tickets available.

[00:38:59] Nathan Wrigley: But, um, again, links in the show notes. The show notes will come out tomorrow. Uh, at the beginning of this podcast, I intended to ask a question, but then Michelle trembled onto the scene and, uh, and I completely forgot, sorry, and No, no, no, no, it's fine because it's apropos of nothing, but I thought. Right.

We're about halfway through. Let's just hijack the conversation for a minute. This week. A tier, um, um, the ARC browser. A RC, the arc browser kind of publicly announced that they were not really going away, but kind of going away. They sort of said, we're going to stop developing this, this plugin, sorry, this plugin, this browser that we have.

And if you haven't used it, uh, it, it was brilliant. It is brilliant. It had loads of extremely cool features. And so I went around this week thinking, right, I'm gonna find a different one that's maintained and keeps going. And uh, and so I just thought we'd get into that. I dunno if you notice, but I'm using, uh, let me put it back on the screen.

I'm using, uh, one now called Vivaldi, uh, which most people have never heard of, but it's got a load of cool features. Check this one out, right? If you look at my tab at the top, look, you can drop a tab into another tab. Ooh. And then if you drop the two tabs together, they become a little accordion lot. And now that a little accordion looks, I've got little two tabs, you can separate them.

And then, and I now put three together. Look how clever it is. And you've got this sidebar, which you can do various things it can do. It's actually got a male client built into it. It's got a calendar client built into it. An RSS reader built into. It sounds like a lot, doesn't it? But it's chromium based, so it does all the, uh, you know, all the usual stuff like extensions and what have you.

And then you probably won't be able to see this. Yes, you can see this, but because I'm in an incognito tab, you won't be able to see it. You can organize, uh, into workspaces, so you can open up a ton of tabs and then save them as a workspace. Sync those across all your devices. So for example, you might have, I don't know, a work.

Workspace and a, I don't know, social workspace or a holiday planning workspace or whatever, and you can browse between them. And like I said, they sync all over the place, including mobile. They've got a fully featured mobile app. So my question was, what are you using these days? I'm on Vivaldi, so there you go.

Uh, what, what are you guys using? I'm still using Chrome. Same Chrome? Yeah. Damn. I have no need. I like giving all my data to Google. Do you, do you, do you? No, no. Seriously, like that is a dead serious question. Do you like giving your data to Google or have you just made that deal? You just like, it's fine.

[00:41:33] Murk Westguard: I've gotta a point now where everything in my life is monitored. Even my drive, my car, there's not a.

Most of my day, I'm just coding. So I'm in Chrome using the developer console, and I, I love the developer console in Chrome. Um, you know, it gives me everything I need for developing plugins and I've just kind of stuck with it really. So, yeah. Yeah. If I had a concern, I would definitely look around, but, uh, yeah.

Yeah. Most I've built on chromium, right? Yeah. So it's pretty much the same brows under the hood, people just wrapping it in more advanced stuff, but I, I, I, yeah, I just stick with it. Stick crown. I like that. No matter what I talk about, it'll show me an ad for that later in the day. Yes, exactly. Yeah. We're all gonna get, we're all gonna get the browser ads later in the day.

[00:42:17] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So relevant. So I've got chromium over here, but Vivaldi, we've got two chromium chromes over there. What about you, Corey? What's your go-to? Yeah, same. I, I've tried, I, being fascinated, obsessed with products, like I'm constantly looking for new things and installing them and trying them. I keep the, the f.

[00:42:42] Corey Maass: My Twitter is, is full of WordPress, but also build in public and, um, indie, indie hacker and like some of these other communities. And so the in particular, there's one called Horse or Horses. And so the suddenly my, my feed is showing me tweets from him 'cause his usership has gone through the roof.

'cause he was a paid, fully paid alternative to, um, to the browser you just mentioned, which is, since that's going away, he's going up, up, up. And I keep looking at the features, but I'm like, I don't like, it's, it's neat to look at and see what's available. And like I, I, I own so much crap and I own so much software.

Like I want to, I, I want to buy like, but it's, there's, so far there's not things that I'm like, I need to have that, you know what I mean? So it's, it's still just Chrome for me. Does, does Chrome do this? Can you do, can you do that in Chrome? It's funny that you mention that because, uh, like in the last two weeks I've, I've literally wanted that like side by side.

Uh, the way you can in Finder on Mac, you can do, you can open in tabs or whatever. Yeah. Um, so this is called tiling. And so you just basically throw a bunch of tabs into that little accordion thing and then you click a button and it says, um, tile them. Yeah. Downloading now. Yeah, exactly. See, it's changed your life.

[00:44:12] Nathan Wrigley: No, but this is, this is the thing. Yeah. No, no, don't go. No, no, no. Yeah, I get it. That's exactly what I should do. Right? Tell me what I should do. Um, and by the way, nothing, oh, we're going. So off piece here, um, there's a free Mac app called Rectangle, which allows you to, I dunno if you've come across it, but it sits in the tray at the top.

Is that called the tray? You know, the admin bar kind of thing at the top of Mac. It sits in there and you can smack, um, you take a ta, something like, I dunno, Firefox or Chrome, and you just whack it on a particular part of the monitor with your mouse, and then it occupies a proportion of the screen. And so you could do, you know, hit one left, hit one.

Right. And suddenly they're half and half. Or you could be two thirds, all that. There's a, there's a bunch of those. Yeah. Magnet is another one. That's another one. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the OS now has some version of that. You can at least go left and right. Yeah. And full, um. But I find this use for me, I use Alfred with a key.

[00:45:08] Corey Maass: Oh yeah. Key command. 'cause I'm, 'cause I'm that kind of nerd. Thi this. This for me is the killer feat. Honestly, this is. Is the killer feature for me. Um, I totally, oh, can you, can you still hear me? My, uh, my VNC just decided to drop in, hold on, let me just disconnect that quickly. There we go. Um, that's literally the killer feature.

[00:45:28] Nathan Wrigley: I'm constantly doing two things at the same time with two different web pages and, uh, and having them side by side and able to see what, you know, copy and paste from one into the other is really important. Like, collating this news article. Um, it just works really well. You know, I can see it, the news on the left, and then I paste it into my, uh, WordPress post on the right.

And anyway. Anyway, that's what Vivaldi does. Patricia, what are you using? So my main one is Firefox. Um, but Nice. But I, I am, I am a too many tabs person and I recently, and it's also because my laptop, I, I only have a laptop and I, it's begins to age a bit bad, so I have some resource issues and if I have a browser open and then a video call and suddenly it, everything frees.

[00:46:18] Patricia BT: So I have too many tabs and it takes too many, too much ram and I have to kill it. It kill the task, uh, from the task manager, the Windows task manager, and yeah. But there are extensions or adds, uh, for Firefox that I could not leave. And I had, I have not particularly searched for the same alternative on Chrome or Chromium's browser.

[00:46:45] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. But I also use Chrome because I have so many profiles. So it's very easy on Chrome, you know, you click on the right tab and you have all your Google accounts. Because I have many project, I have some for other people and stuff, you know, that it's not my personal account. So it's, it's easier. So you might, if you track, uh, the visit and I accept the, to be tracked you, you might see my visit with two.

[00:47:13] Patricia BT: Different browser ads. Oh, I see, okay. Yeah, you've got, yeah. Well I use Firefox for a while 'cause they've got this thing called containers, which is really cool. And it isolates the cookies inside that container. So let's say for example, you hate Facebook, but need Facebook, you can open up Facebook inside this Firefox container and all the cookies are kept in there and they can't reach out.

[00:47:34] Nathan Wrigley: Um, so, so that's kind of nice. And I, but I, I dunno if Vivaldi does something like that, but here we go. What have we got? Uh, firstly, um, Jerome says he'll see you soon. He's going. So Patricia, you've got, uh, somebody to, to hang out with. That's really nice. Uh, chromium apparently has groups too. Didn't know that.

I feel like an idiot now. You see, I've raised this whole subject and there was no need. We could all be on Chromium, uh, brave and Firefox. Yeah, I was using Brave and then I got all shiny with Valdi. That was, it was just shininess. That's all it was. Uh, Tim Nash. Hi Tim. We spent a bit of this week with Tim down at Word Camp.

Uh, sorry. WordPress London meet up on Thursday. That was really nice. Um, Firefox has workspaces. Ha has had it for years. And it's called containers and it actually works. Okay. Yeah, I think I just said all that, so that's great. Thank you. Um, or the doc for two browsers. Raycast, never heard of that as a built-in Window Manager.

What's Ray? Is Raycast a browser? If it is, that's amazing. 'cause I've never heard of that one. Macs does it too. Now if you're on Sequoia, brilliant. On Firefox. I think it's called tiling is called side view. So there you go. Turns out you can do everything in a different browser. I was just, I feel like you're always trying to tweak your setup though, Nathan, you're, you'd like to fiddle.

Honestly, that is a whole day of my life that I'm never getting back. Um, but the ARC browser genuinely turned my head in so many ways. It was brilliant. But they made the sad decision this week that essentially, despite all of their amazing marketing, and they were amazing at marketing, they just realized they can't get the, they can't get the numbers.

Um, 140 million invested. Like, that's, that's the thing that blew my mind was, and, and assuming it's true, I apologize, I should caveat this with like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm skimming news. That's okay. But what, what stuck with me was, I believe what I saw was that they, I. 140 million invested in a Chrome fork.

[00:49:43] Corey Maass: Yeah. Am I allowed to say that word here? Yeah. Yeah, you are. Yeah. But, you know, a chromium browser, 140 million. Yeah. And it's like, I don't, what did the, and that to me is, is again, like I, I tend to think entrepreneurial. I'm like, somebody walked into a room and convinced a bunch of investors that they could add enough features to Chrome, they could out feature, you know, the, the core Google team who are going to see every feature and then start and consider adding it and, and raised 140 million.

And that's like, I, that's, that's an incredible salesperson. Yeah. And I know where most of it went, judging by the videos, firstly, as it always does, it went on salaries. Secondly, I. Office furniture, that's where it went. You saw their promotional videos. It was like, I wanna work there. It looks so nice.

[00:50:35] Nathan Wrigley: Everything's colorful and fresh and big. Um, let's start a project like that and Yeah. Come on together. Yeah. The four of us five's, no. OI, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But interesting. 140 million Cory's. Right? That's a, I mean, honestly, we say it these days as if it's nothing, you know, it's so much money to, to get invested.

And, and obviously after this period of time, they've realized they can't do it, so guess what they're gonna do? You can't. Whoa. You know, original. Yeah, exactly. What's that? Uh, so apparently Raycast is similar to Alfred says. Courtney, thank you. That's good to know. Thanks. Uh, Raycast is a command tool similar to Alfred.

Okay. And, um.

Got a bridge to send, uh, to sell them. I guess this is in reference to the, uh, the London Bridge sale to the, uh, to the Americans back in the day. If I could make one, one side comment plug. Yeah. It's not a plug. Whatever, um, is, I've already pitched, I think at least Michelle, probably mark on this is I'm a big fan.

[00:51:43] Corey Maass: Nathan, I'm sorry for what I'm about to tell you. It's okay. Um, if you haven't discovered SET App Oh yeah. Assuming you're on Mac. Yeah. Um, it is, it is the ultimate way to lose days and days Yes. Days. Because you try all 400 of them once. Exactly. So, yes, fed App is a, is a monthly subscription and you get all of these apps included in the subscription.

And I fought it. I really didn't want to want it. Um, and, uh, but I was, I. Was buying so many of the apps that were already included that eventually I was like, forget it, I'm just gonna buy in. Yeah. And then of course wound up looking at all the other apps because the way, you know, I mean, it, it makes sense from a sales perspective.

Like I've, it's money spent. I may as well install these other 405, like a 500 plugins on a WordPress install. Um, you know, I've gotta try them all. So, uh, weekend. Yeah, no doubt in there there's probably one app which allows you to uninstall the other 399. There's an app for absolutely everything. Um, Roy, thank you Roy.

[00:52:46] Nathan Wrigley: Roy's just made my work my week. Just dis you know what the heck? I've invested my time in a closed source product. I didn't know that. I assumed it was open source because I didn't read the email or didn't read the documentation. Okay. Well that gonna, we'll also shut your browser down now, right? Yeah, that's right.

We just dropped the hammer on you, Nathan. Well, do you know what's interesting? I've opened this wave video that we're doing the video on in, uh, brave. Because I can't trust a new browser to do the video on the fly. Um, in the same way that I used chromium for years and then tried it out on brave one time and it worked.

So I kept going and it's never failed, but I was never gonna try it today 'cause I, I just can't afford for the show to collapse. And it probably wouldn't, but you never know, right? Uh, and then big it says, I hear you, Corey couldn't resist set up either. Yeah, don't do it everybody. I mean, do it. It's great.

But also, you know, do it on vacation week. 'cause that's the amount of time. Well, I, I'll tell you why not to do it. I'll, I'll tell you why not to do it. They rejected my application for an affiliate app pro, uh, into their affiliate program. So I can't make money off of these recommendations. So for that reason alone, everybody should boycott it.

[00:53:58] Corey Maass: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Boo Boo. And his, um, and, uh, Roy says, sorry. No, it's all right. It's okay. At least he's polite. Yeah, that's, that's fine. Uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just weep after the show anyway. I quite like it. I'll probably still use it even though it's close source for various different bits and pieces.

[00:54:18] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. That is the end of that little side step. Let's go back to here. Because you mentioned the meetup, London, I heard a lot of good thing about London, and if I go crazy one day, I might fly to just for a meetup and just to meet you and Tim and I might have my friend Steve from Manchester to come down.

[00:54:41] Patricia BT: I. That'd be great. We've got, and we've got one, I think it's the 28th of November is the next one. And then oddly, so it's always the final Thursday of the month. But the, but then the, the Christmas one, that doesn't work 'cause it's Christmas time. Yeah. So that one's on the 12th of December and we got something a bit special lined up for that.

[00:54:57] Nathan Wrigley: And we, we had a bit of a nightmare, not a nightmare, but the, the venue that we were using, they got new office accommodation and so we couldn't use that anymore. So we had this, we had this period up until the other day where we didn't have a venue and we were honestly starting to panic a little bit. And then we were walking down the street, me, Paul, um, Paul Smart and Dan, maybe we were walking down the street to go and look at a venue.

And on the way to the venue, we saw a venue and we walked in just off, off, you know, on the off chance that it were. And it's perfect. Nice. It's absolutely what we need. It's really affordable and it's just the bomb. Um, and so it was one of those serendipitous things that, you know, you're like, ah, that was meant to be.

Um, and so yeah, so we now know where it is. It's the bridge, um, in Souk. The London Bridge. Yeah. Well it is, it's really close to the London Bridge. Bridge. Yeah. It really is close to London Bridge, which by the way, is not falling down. Um, just in case you have to bring your own tarp. Yeah, no, because you're under the bridge and it's tripping on you.

[00:56:03] Corey Maass: But otherwise, I hadn't been to London for years and I started going to the WordPress London Meetup man alive that all of London is so snazzy now. I used to live there in like the late nineties and it was all a bit like depressing. Oh, now it's so nice. All of it. It's crazy. Uh, it's probably 'cause I'm moved out, um, I'll be in Brighton around that time, so I may see if I can pop up.

[00:56:27] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I'll be there. Well, in December, well, 28th of November and the 12th of December, I, it is gonna be a good one. That one more of a social. Less of a learning experience, but a good, sorry, should we've got something up our sleeve. Anyway, apropos of nothing, this is the only time we're gonna touch this maybe, uh, but we'll just keep it, keep it very sweet.

So I don't wanna talk about the, the stuff that's going on in the WordPress space in terms of litigation, who's doing what and what have you. But I thought this was probably important to mention. I'm just gonna read what it says. It's on the WP Tavern, 1st of November, automatic and Matt Mullenweg, push for dismissal dismissal of key claims in WP Engine lawsuit.

And I'm just gonna read the TLDR at the top Automatic. And Matt Mullen Weger filed a response asking the court to dismiss counts one to six and nine to 11 of WP Engine's lawsuit. WP Engine had filed a motion on the 18th of October 24 for a preliminary injunction in a Northern California court seeking to restore access to wordpress.org and reversion to conditions of September 20th, 2024.

Honestly, I don't know enough about law. I certainly don't know enough about American law to tell you what's going on. The one thing I can say. Is that on the socials that I frequent, it seems to have calmed down a lot. We seem to have a lot less vitriol going about, I think essentially people's, um, like passion probably hasn't been in any way stifled or stimy.

People are probably, you know, they're still on the same side of the fence, but maybe now people have just got less capacity to, uh, to, you know, just post incessantly about it. I, I'm for the, I'm of the opinion, let's now just let the lawyers I. Figure out what's gonna happen. And once the lawyers have figured it out, we can talk about what the lawyers said was acceptable and what wasn't.

And at that point, you know, let's just go for that. Um, anybody want to talk about that? No. Okay, fine. Let's move on. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Next have, uh, right here we go. So this is about the WordPress community. Again, I don't really know too much about how swag was ordered, and I don't know if this is indicative of things sort of slowing down on the word camp side of things or not.

But, um, this is just to say that if you are organizing an event, there is now a pause on swag shipments for WordPress events, word camps, and meet ups. And I've highlighted a bunch. But essentially if you were organizing any of these things, there was a way to go through that. There was a process to go through to get your bits and pieces, the swag that you might give away at that event.

Uh, you know, all the typical stuff that you receive if you go to WordPress events. No doubt. Um, and now that has been paused. There are no plans at the moment to, to bring all of that back. Um, but you can, if you want to reach out, there's an email here, support at WordCamp org if you have any questions. So, in terms of the future, it says wealth.

This likely won't be prioritized right now as we don't have many community team contributors available. It will surely be reconsidered in the. Future. So I'm gonna throw this one at, um, Patricia probably, I guess to start with, is this significant in any way? Is this just because there aren't boots on the ground or is this because things are sort of slowing down?

It's not profitable to set, to give this stuff away? Do you know anything about this? I don't know why, but I know that as a work comp organizer, I've been a, like a local, like Swiss work camp organizers for many years. So, uh, a few maybe months before the, the event, uh, we were asked for the shipping address and then we would receive all the lanyards and pins and stickers and stuff.

[00:59:53] Patricia BT: So, um, I think it's even better like that because you, you, you add that to your budget, um, and you print locally, so it's even, it's. More sustainable, I think. Anyway, we print t-shirts, so why not to, to have the lanyard printed and even the, the, the pins and the stickers, it's 'cause it, it all came from the US and yeah.

And sometimes we even had like custom declaration issue or stuff. All right. Yeah. So yeah, I, I don't exactly know why it was, uh, said in the article that, uh, in the post that there was not enough, uh, like community people, uh, available. But yeah. Um, it was already mentioned like before, if you understand what I mean by before.

So it's, it's not related, uh, to the situation or if you say that there are less event or I'm not even sure there are less events for now. No, I don't think so either. I, I mean, yeah, it's just curious. Just events in North America. Okay. Okay. There, there was like, uh, a person in charge of that that had to, to to know the number for each event and send a package.

You know, that's. Just something that we can do locally. Okay. Uh, to be honest with you, I think quite a bit of it ends up as waste, doesn't it? Um, which is not particularly great for the environment. Um, I certainly, in my case, I always decline the swag because if it's an option to decline it, 'cause I, I generally don't make use of it.

[01:01:24] Nathan Wrigley: So, uh, I'll just read what it says verbatim. After several attempts to find alternatives and continue shipping swag for community team events, we have decided to pause this program, uh, officially until our contributors have the bandwidth to conduct more research and identify a sustainable solution.

Again, uh, it's sort of a minor story really, but, um, yeah, I I wondered if it was indicative of some greater malaise, swag specifically though is the lanyards, the pins, and the, and the, the stickers, the w stickers for WordPress. Okay. Okay. So it's a small subset of things. Yeah. It's not the things that are specific to every camp.

[01:01:56] Michelle Frechette: It's, it's those things. Okay. I think that the only one that, that will cause some people to have to figure out a little bit more is the, is the lanyards. Um, if they choose to get lanyards. You know, printed or if they just go with something, you know, just plain black lanyards or stickers as your Yeah. You know, your badge.

It's just, it gives a few more options, but it also will cause some newer, um, work camp organizers to have to do a little more scrambling than usual because they're not sending those things out. I don't think it's a biggest, I don't think it's a big issue. No. Good, good, good. But I think it'll something that people have to take into consideration.

[01:02:31] Nathan Wrigley: Good, good to hear. Mm-Hmm. Um, bigot. The, the bigot, the second, the third, the, I don't know, the bigot. This one old big. We'll do it down today. The olds big. Yeah. The bigot we've got today, uh, says Okay. New location. Yeah. Maybe plan our next trip to London around the meetup. Uh, wpdn.uk. Uh, if you wanna see what the, uh, if you go to speak, all the dates are on there forward slash speak.

All of the dates are on there. Um, I did it once unintentionally, and it was amazing. Yeah, I mean, the whole thing's fairly unintentional, so, uh, you know, uh, it's good. It is good. Please do come along. All right. All right. All right, let's move on. Um, da da da. Again, very quick piece of community news. Uh, we have these things called, uh, team reps, and they do an awful lot of work.

It is, um, says here, the team reps are responsible for communicating on behalf of the group to other contributor groups via weekly meetups envisioned of about a minimum of one hour a week. So it's not a paid post, and the expectation would be at least one hour a week. If you are into that and you. Find the idea of writing agendas for community team meetings or coordinating and facilitating of meetings and posting summaries, that kind of thing.

Then, uh, go to make wordpress.org. Look for a post on the 1st of November with the community team rep nominations for 25 title, and you've got until the 15th of November, uh, to post your application. And then voting will be decided by the 10th of December. So if you wanna help the project. Yeah. Can you scroll down?

[01:04:01] Patricia BT: I can. So we see if people have been nominated publicly already. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Nice. There's a few comments. Not too many. Look, what the heck, what. Look, look at that. When did that happen? Yesterday at 5 57. Yeah. Nice. Hope Michelle knows I do. You you can say no. Yeah, yeah. Quite. Yeah. No, no, no. It's, it's there in black and white.

[01:04:30] Nathan Wrigley: She's doing it. I just not, I just nominate random people. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Uh, okay. So, oh, that's nice. That was a nice bit of serendipity as well. I confess I didn't scroll down and see that, so that's lovely. There you are, both of you on the call. Okie dokie. So moving on, this is kind of touching a little bit on what we, we want to avoid, but nevertheless we'll get into it 'cause it, we don't have to touch any of the hot button stuff.

This is Yost DeVol. So Yost the person not. The, uh, the plugin, the company, um, Yost and Marika, in fact, uh, but it's on the Yost DevOp website. Um, they have this post this week called the People Behind the Platform, how WordPress Community drives it. Its success. Now, you can see I've read it, I've highlighted a bunch of stuff.

The TLDR is basically people, not companies. Will be the most effective way of marketing whatever you've got. So whether that be a plugin, a theme, the project itself, it's not gonna be like the, the emails going out on behalf of the company that will make it a success. So I don't know, in the case of. Mark, um, doing WS form.

Maybe he can speak to this, I don't know. And, and if I'm dropping you in it, mark, just tell me to be quiet. Um, stuff that you put out is probably gonna have a certain audience, but I'm guessing if some big influencer catches onto some aspect of your product, they can, I don't know, 10 x your marketing. I think Yos says something like 10 or 15 times or something like that.

Okay. Um, and basically behind this is the idea that the community is driving the success. So it's not just about YouTube influencers or people that have got podcasts or famous blogs or whatever. It's the, it's the community that's driving the success. And I think Yost, the person just wanted to highlight that, you know, and in all this stuff that, that's going on at the moment, uh, let's not forget that that's is what's going on.

Um, and you know, I'm kind of pausing that very, very quickly, but I just thought it was kind of salutary to Mm-Hmm. Just to remember that Well. Are we talking about marketing WordPress? 'cause that was a topic. Yeah. I mean, at WordCamps, are we talking about marketing within WordPress? He's definitely talking about marketing WordPress, but it kind of, he definitely, well, certainly the bit that I took out of it was that not just WordPress, your stuff within WordPress could also be equally influenced in the same way, you know?

But yeah, the article is about marketing WordPress as a, as a platform. Sorry, mark did, did I interrupt? The thing I love about our community is that we, um, we all help each other out. You know, no matter what we're doing, some of us are building plugins, some of us have podcasts, some of us have YouTube channels.

[01:07:13] Murk Westguard: And, and I even, I, you know, I try to help out other plugin developers, um, that have come onto the scene. 'cause it is an, you're, you know, you're an, an in a. Huge world, and it's very, very difficult to get your, your name out there. Did he just call us an aunt? I think he just called us all s You're an aunt. I I heard it the other way.

[01:07:31] Corey Maass: He's he's the auntie. Oh, no. He's helping us. Okay. I like that better, Carol. Sorry. I mean, I was, I mean, effectively very new to the community six years ago, six, seven years ago. And, and, um, I wouldn't be where I am now, have people not helped me. And I, and I try and help back as, as much as I can. And, um, I, I think, you know, Yost is right.

[01:07:55] Murk Westguard: The, the, there's an immense amount of power in our community, more so than I think we give ourselves credit for. Um, a lot of the, the noise that we make is, is, is done within the community and not done by the, the corporates. Um, pretty much everything I absorb about WordPress comes from people that are enthusiastic and are not making multimillion.

Dollars per year from, from the platform. Um, and I, I think that's maybe where we've got kind of derailed over the last few weeks. Yeah. I know that, that topic is important, right? There's no, but like I said, we'll let the lawyers decide where all of that lands. Yep. That is important. But equally, I, I certainly have lost sight of the community over the last few weeks and, and, and it is just nice to read somebody that's put it into words and is able Yeah.

[01:08:40] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Just kind of re reminded me, you know what, that stuff will still remain, those events are still gonna carry on. That plugin will still get updated. Those themes will still be talked about. People will still be putting out content. Um, and I, I, I think I got lost in Twitter somewhere, you know, it's been very distracting, but I think at the heart of it, we're all still there.

[01:09:02] Murk Westguard: Right. Yeah. And we're all, all still working towards a common cause. Uh, anybody that has WordPress in their life to make a living is just, you know, keep, keep pushing on. Yeah. And arguably to. Sorry, mark, I cut you off. No, go for it. Um, just to me that's been the, like, wasn't there a WordPress Super Bowl ad at some point, but like, we don't, does WordPress itself need marketing in the context of, of us, like the big hosting companies need to market WordPress so that people then buy their hosting.

[01:09:39] Nathan Wrigley: Hmm. But, but like for in my world, it's me advocating, this is the tool I use. Mm-Hmm. So I'm not, but I'm not necessarily handing out business cards for WordPress. If there was a better option, I might use it and, or like, I'm gonna advocate obviously for my plugin on that platform. So ultimately. Essentially word of mouth.

[01:10:04] Corey Maass: I'm advocating for that platform, but it's, to me, there's, there's a difference. We are absolutely, the community is what makes it, I think we all believe, and, and those of us who are running business on it, whether it's agencies or freelancing or plugins, we're marketing each other or marketing ourselves.

But it's like WordPress is a, a side, side effect of that, right? Like, 'cause we, our, our, the, the services we offer or the products we offer wouldn't, wouldn't exist without this, the core of WordPress, it's really curious, I dunno if this is the case for your life, right? And maybe it's unique on the panel to me, but basically nobody that I, okay, let's start with me.

[01:10:53] Nathan Wrigley: My apart from the WordPress community, my entire life is in the real world. The only bit of it, which is, um, online is the WordPress bit, but that's a significant bit of my life. Mm-Hmm. But when I talk to other people who are in my life, in the real world, none, not one of them has an online bit. None of them.

They're all, you know, it's like the people that they meet in at the coffee house, it's people that they've got, their friends, their family, their relations and all that. And when I tell them that, it's like, you know, yeah, there's this whole online community. I sometimes get looked at me like, what? You've got online friends.

You've got online friends, Nathan, like Yeah. And they're like, what? And they're actual Yes. They're actual friends. It's not weird. Stop looking at me like that. That okay. Yeah. But, um, but it's a big part of my life and I'm trying to encapsulate it. I, I still don't think we figured it out. You know, the, the whole online thing is still new enough that we haven't worked out what it is.

I just know it's a very important bit of my life and, um, and I'm so glad that it seems to be calming down. Um, because for a little bit back there, I was getting worried that we were having earthquakes. Every couple of hours and that it was gonna all fall up, but they were, they were online earthquakes.

[01:12:12] Murk Westguard: Right, right, right. I think that, I think that the, on our online life, when, when we meet each other in person at a work camp, I find that so valuable. And, and it's, it's, it's a lovely thing. Like I, you know, like Corey and I met at work camp US actually sat down and spoke to each other and found common interests and built, uh, yeah.

I mean, we, we both love apps, uh, set up, but we, you know, it, it changed the relationship from being just a, a one hour zoom call to actually. Talking to somebody. Yeah. I love that we have word camps and that, that we can do that and, and bolt up those relationships. One of the things, I'm sorry. No, no, please.

You go. One of the things that I try to do, um, in my job at Stellar is to continue to champion WordPress for sure. And to show how you could learn WordPress and why WordPress is still relevant. Because without WordPress, there is no stellar because we are all WordPress plugins and themes. And so that's one of the things that I try to do, um, to the community part of it.

[01:13:17] Michelle Frechette: I will say that there have been times when I see somebody face to face. Like the first time I saw Patricia face to face, I didn't realize we had never met in person before because I'd seen her so many times on screen. Yeah. But I forget that this is actually our first time meeting face to face, um, because we work in these same circles and things like that.

And so I think that there's. There's a lot that that yos and Marika put in that article that is, is absolutely true. Right? So like we do help each other. We do, and, and I think it's right that it's people that are doing the marketing, not necessarily big corporations, because a corporation, I could put out an ad, um, type post on seller WP that sounds very corporate, but then I can put out something on the Stellar Twitter account and I have people messaging me going, you wrote that, didn't you?

It sounds like you. Right. And those were the ones that get more, more views and those are the ones that help us sell more products. And so it definitely is both. You need a balance. But I think that it's the people talking to people that really help understand, like I get more dms about how do I do this with give wb or how do I do this with cadence?

Than, you know, than, than those people don't want to go to support. They wanna just ask somebody that they know. And that's where the, that's where we come in to be able to help those things happen. I think it was just really nice to hear somebody say what I've been hoping somebody would say, which is like, it's all gonna be all right.

[01:14:38] Nathan Wrigley: The community is the thing. Um, I've been kind of lying low a little bit, but I, I do feel that although the, the flame wars will no doubt carry on, I think may, maybe there's a, a little bit of, um, oh, I don't know. Maybe it's the community part. The community part is very important. Yeah. And um, maybe. When I was a young teenager or young, my mother used to always tell me, uh, be careful.

[01:15:04] Patricia BT: It's not a cult. You know, whenever I said, I met a new group of friends, you know, and she would, she would, if she was alive, she would definitely tell me that about the workforce community because, uh, you know, I spend more money to attend Evans that I earn with WordPress to be honest and contribute more than I earn.

So it's like, it's like a cult in, in her own definition, like giving you, giving your time and money for, for, for that. But, um, one thing is that I try to not stay in the workplace bubble only. And there are other, uh, area, uh, where you find a bit the same. For example, the, the community of people who speak aspiro or people around, uh, humanists, uh, for example humanist uk.

And then there, there are meetups, uh, in different. Part of the world and also, yeah. O other stuff like that. And it's even something I would like to build on one of my business projects that, that I postponed actually, because I contributed too much to, to too much WordPress. But I want to restart that. And it's really about that.

I think that what's made, uh, what, uh, what press successful is that to, to have, um, meat popping, uh, everywhere in the world. And that, that, that's what is a, I think that made the success because it's, it, it goes like exponentially, a bit like, like an MLM, you know? Uh, so in one of my project, I want that, that local people everywhere can start their own chapter, you know?

So, and, and copy a bit the press community on that. Yeah. Yeah. Just really nice to sort of get that written by somebody else. I think we forget the, the, the thing that I'm, I guess I'm, I'm still. We all are pro community. We all love our community. Do, do, do. Right. And yes, I, and, and I love this article, but what I, I guess what I was trying to get out earlier, and I still want to bring up one more time, is that what I find sort of odd in the context of this article is marketing.

[01:17:15] Corey Maass: Like, it's a lovely article about community and if you read the title, the people behind the platform, the community drive success, but it's the, like the, the use of marketing in it is still sort of. Confusing to me or the, I mean, it definitely is, these are two different things, I guess. Yeah, it definitely is about marketing.

[01:17:33] Nathan Wrigley: Is it, or at least that's how it begins at the top, and then it seems to sort of drift more into community. And so maybe I'm driving, maybe I'm, I'm pulling too hard on a thread, but it, yeah, I mean, no, but I think it, it, I think really if you had a product, I think if, if the only thing you drew outta this article was the first half of it, it would be don't try to sell it from your own, uh, business email address or, you know, what have you find a bunch of, find a bunch of community members who love it and get them to talk about it.

Um, and so maybe the two things do coalesce, you know, the community side with the marketing. Yeah, I just thought it was a nice, nice piece, um, to mention. And just quickly, there was one comment there from Kami Cammi McNamara. Thank you, Kami. Hi. Um, looks out, had a good time in Sydney this weekend. It did. I think it had like a whole onesie thing where they all got dressed up in onesies, which, uh, Wendy went, went there, Wendy went there.

Wendy What? Wendy? Wendy from the Netherlands. Oh, she went to Sydney. Gosh. Oh, I have no news since. But she, she loved it so much. Trust your world. Yeah. Well, we'll never see her again. She's, uh, enjoying a long way to go. Yeah. She's enjoying it so much. Right. Okay, let's go on to the next one quickly. I'll just do this very quickly 'cause we're kind of running outta time, so here we go.

Um. This, I, I didn't know about this, but it turns out Steve Burge, who has published press amongst other things. Um, meta Slider is another project of his, um, he says that in September last year, he wrote an article, uh, about the launch of Press Forward, uh, and how they promised to invest five, check this out, half a billion, $500 million in local news organizations over the next five years.

It's been a year now. And that money is starting to flow to WordPress publishers. Gosh, yes. I don't even know where that money comes from. Um, a total of 205 small local news outlets, and you can see some of them here. Um, and they appear to be All American as far as I can see. Um, will receive a portion of $20 million in funding from Press Forward.

The majority receiving $100,000 in operating support. This initiative aims to revitalize local journalism. The list of 205 outlets is absolutely dominated by WordPress, and that basically is, that's where the article ends. And there's just a list, the, the Latino news, the Black Iowa News, Arizona area, uh, 2 8 5 South.

Dunno, any of these, but I just thought that was fascinating. Where, where's this money coming from? I guess it's coming from. Um, you know, people that are interested in actually putting local news out there, but phenomenal. Uh, and again, I'm wondering if it's News Pack, but, um, yeah, it's News Pack. Yeah. And I think the money comes from, uh, like a, almost like a family.

[01:20:10] Murk Westguard: I. Fund. Wow. This very regular endowment. Yeah, something like that. Okay. Yeah, so, right, right. Um, I know that in the UK at least anyway, uh, local journalism, I local newspapers are basically dead. Um, that is the most difficult metric to compete. I mean, you only have to walk down the street and look at the typical teenager who will very soon be an adult to realize paper, what the heck?

[01:20:36] Nathan Wrigley: They don't even know what it is. Um, if it's a pixel, they're happy. If it's, if it actual crushed tree in the form of paper. No. And the unfortunately, the, the dive to the bottom, um, with local newspapers has been so bad here with just like horrible advertising models. Just, you know, you, you got one sentence and then 20 ads and then a second sentence, and then 20 A.

It's just horrific. And so all things like this. Might bring it back. And do you know what the amount of stuff going on in my neighborhood that I don't know about because there isn't any longer a new an an actual newspaper. You know, the stuff that I, I speak to my local friends and they tell me, oh, I went to this, that, and the how, how did you even, how did you even know?

And they've got family and relatives going back, but the newspaper would've been my way of finding that out. So Good on ya. Whoever press forward are giving away all this cash. That's brilliant. Okay, uh, I'll move on quickly 'cause we are running out of time. Uh, WordCamp Europe 2026. Uh, we need a, we need a venue, we need a host city.

Um, and basically there's an application process, a whole thing. I imagine there's an awful lot that goes into it. But the first step is to get your, um, submission in and you've gotta do that. You've got 11 days, so probably a bit late. I'm probably a bit late to the party here, but I just thought I'd mention it.

Um, is this early, Patricia, is this like Norm? Is it normally like a whole year and a bit ahead like this? Okay, so, uh, last year the application opened in December and ended in February. Okay. And I advocated to, to have it early because, um. Actually, when a city is selected, it is good to have the people from that city, uh, to join the organizing team and learn how to do it, you know?

[01:22:33] Patricia BT: Mm-Hmm. So, um, because now it's earlier, people can be involved earlier, like in December instead of April. Okay. So that was one of the main reason. Um, another reason is that, uh, some venues in some countries are already booked for 26, 27, 28. And when you have to, to, to, to do a pre-book, and maybe you have three months to confirm, um, it's too late if you do that like one year before in some places.

Yeah. So those are the two reasons. Well, that's good to know. So, um, boots on the ground a little bit earlier. So the decision, so the applications go in by the end, well, 10 days from now, 11 days from now. And then the decision will be made very early, so before December 29th and November, 2024. So whoever is involved in that, you know, the general public won't know, but the organizers will, and then they'll have what an extra three or four months start than previous years to get the community involved and what have you.

[01:23:32] Nathan Wrigley: If this interests you, again, I know it's late, but Europe dot word camp.org, um, and then you can find it from there. Uh, and as usual, it'll be announced at the end of. Uh, what came Sure. Up in June, so thank you. Yeah. Normally gets announced at that point, doesn't it? Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Right, so much.

Right. Let's quickly go through these. I'm just gonna mention this, only mentioning it. Justin, as always, is producing great content over at the WordPress developer blog. Uh, and he's got one about getting and setting block binding values in the editor block. Bindings API, uh, gonna be very important I think, in the near future of WordPress.

And he's got some, as he always does, a great big, long article about how you might implement that from a developer point of view. And let's move on. Uh, anytime for this, probably just, um, studio. So Studio is a local development environment based upon, uh, WordPress. You can download it to your Mac, probably Windows as well, I'm not entirely sure.

And then you can click a button, uh, it invokes Studio, which is kind of this browser based way of, um, developing on WordPress. But now they've, uh, they've done what you might expect them to do in the year 2024. They've thrown AI into it. So you can ask it to do all sorts of things like, I don't know, install a particular plugin.

You literally write it into the assistant, install this plugin for me. It then gives you a bit of a prompt. It looks like a terminal or something like that. And if you're happy with it, you've clicked run and off you go. And I'm guessing it's got smarts in terms of, I don't know, designing, I don't know, a typical five page layout or something like that for a website.

Not sure, but that's a new handy feature. Um, um, um, um, um, and then the other bits and pieces, oh, last one. This is the last word, Pressy bit. Uh, Calvin Elkin, who was on the podcast, he's a security, uh, researcher at Nyco, but he decided the other day that he would turn his attention to just building a pet project.

And he's launched this thing, it's called Command ui, um, which is a bit like, oh. Spotlight on the Mac. And earlier in the podcast people were talking about things like, uh, Alfred and things like that. It's a bit like that for your WordPress site. So you, you can see it on the screen here. Basically, you, you hit a combination of keys on your keyboard, this modal pops up, which is a search box, and you start typing, like add new, and it will give you the option for add new page, add new posts, add new custom post type or what have you.

But it does tons more as well. The, the reception has been something off the scale. I actually can't think of a time when there was more hype about a brand new thing than this. And I think it's taken a bit by surprise. And this goes, uh, this goes back to what you wrote actually. I, I saw so many people, uh, talking about it is like someone else is talking about a, another product and not their own product.

[01:26:19] Patricia BT: And it's so much, it makes so much social proof. If you see all those people you know from their own agencies and you know from webcams and you know, from their products and, and then you see them. Saying, oh, that's so great. I love it. And then that's the social proof that that goes, uh, I guess what you just mentioned in the post, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, the URL for this is, uh, command ui. Um, there's no affiliate weirdness or anything, and as I said, I've not played with it, but the reception has been somewhat ridiculously stellar. Um, and let's just have a look. I think you can, uh, he's doing a site license. I don't think it's a lifetime thing.

[01:27:00] Nathan Wrigley: Lifetime grandfathered pricing, so, yeah. Yeah. There you go. There's the process. And I do know that he's done a lot of work on accessibility with this as well. Oh, nice. He's, he's made sure it's accessible, which is great. Okay. Yeah. Uh, so that's a new product. And there are a couple of things that I could have raised, but honestly, with like one minute to go there, probably or two minutes to go, there probably isn't time.

So should we, um, should we knock it on the head there, as they say? And, uh, mark, just so that everybody is very clear, your introduction at the beginning of this podcast before Michelle Trundled. Um, was not a sausage, Tony, not a sausage. Tell everybody what that means. 'cause it's, it's something you, I share, Nathan, I.

[01:27:41] Murk Westguard: A side passion for archeology. And there's an old TV program called Time Team, and there's a, a guy on that show called Phil that we both adore. He's particularly his accent. And, uh, in several episodes, in every episode, every episode the host will go to, maybe you found a thing and it'll go. Not a sausage Toni.

Not a sausage. Toni. Uh oh yeah. Really nice. Uh, if you, if you're ever bored, uh, go and watch time team and you will be more bored. It's a full to sleep too, but it's, it's the brilliant for insomnia. But if you're into archeology and Beard, beard, the old men, uh, just pacing around on the ground, trying to make something out of nothing, three days of television out of Absolutely.

[01:28:30] Nathan Wrigley: That's right. Nothing. All you see is, is mud under their fingernails? That's it. 30 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, it was. I used to love that show as a kid, not a sausage Tony. So that's what that was about. That's it. We've run outta time. Um, it's still online. It is. You can go and watch it on YouTube. There's like a thousand optimals.

I mean, there's not, it's you absolutely loads of them. Um, uh, yeah, so there you go. Um, that's it. That's all. We've got time for this week. Somewhat unexpectedly in that rectangle over there are two people. Join. Yeah. Look at that extra pair. We gotta get all the hands. There's gonna be so many hands. Um, that was Mark West Guard and Michelle Ette.

We'll talk afterwards. I'm desperate to know what the heck you're doing in the same room next. That's nice. Um, um, down there. But we're joined by Patricia, Patricia BT and over there we're joined. Oh, there, there we go. Uh oh. Thank you. That's really helpful. Oh, that should be a thing. That should be a thing we do at the end.

Everybody try to work. That's never gonna work. Um, and Corey Moss and thank you for joining me today. I really appreciate that we sidestepped the political bombs that we could have walked on, I think. And I thank you to you guys that have commented, appreciate you sticking with us throughout this episode.

That's great. At the end of every episode, we do the wavy hand thing so that I can create some thumbnail out. How many wavy hands are we gonna get today? Loads of wavy hands. That's brilliant. Thank you very much. And I'm not gonna end with the, uh. The cat's, dogs and sheep or whatever it was. I'll end with the ordinary stuff, but I'll, thanks for letting me crash.

Yeah, the normal, normal ten second one. But, uh, stick around you 5, 4, 4 and uh, I'll see you in about 10 seconds. But thanks for watching. Take it easy. Thank you. Bye-Bye. bye-Bye Byebye.