#1 – We have no idea (yet) what this show is about

#1 – We have no idea (yet) what this show is about

Nathan Wrigley

Nathan Wrigley

Nathan writes posts and creates audio about WordPress on WP Builds and WP Tavern. He can also be found in the WP Builds Facebook group, and on Mastodon at wpbuilds.social.

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[00:00:00] Nathan Wrigley: This episode of the WP Builds podcast is brought to you by GoDaddy Pro the home of managed WordPress hosting. That includes free domain, SSL, and 24 7 support. Bundle that with the Hub by GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place, invoice clients and get 30% of new purchases. Find out more at go.me/wpbuilds.

Hello? Hello. Hello. This is interesting. This is new. This is something we've never done before. This is this is an eye correction checking out first time I felt like gold or something. This is Anne McCarthy and we're trying to out something new. So first of all, and say hi and tell us who you are apart from the fact that yeah.

[00:00:59] Anne McCarthy: Hello and McCarthy I'm a WordPress product liaison at automatics. I was previously a developer relations Wrangler. I hangout in the full citing outreach program and Nathan was kind enough to hit me up to just do a casual chat and see where this goes to see how we can continue to help provide value and information and honestly, community for the community.

So I really appreciate you having me on and doing this cause it's really wonderful when folks like this can come through.

[00:01:28] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I'm really grateful that you've come and joined us. Hopefully it will be a regular thing, but just to set some expectations, if you are watching this, whether it be live or on the channel later we don't really know what the purpose is.

Other than that, it, I chatted to over well, we've chatted quite a lot over the recent months and I just thought it we've got an audience of some magnitude. I don't mean that. Big headed way. Although it came out, like I apologize, we've got an audience, let's put it that way. And it would be nice to collide that audience with the things that Ann is doing, because I'm trying to get the information out there.

She's trying to encourage people to look into what's happening with the developments of WordPress, be that 5.9 or six or 6.1, or whatever's coming in the future. And sometimes the two, the communities don't connect and it would be nice if people who were interested in WordPress got to hear the message from an, we don't know what the format's going to be like.

We've got some, we've got some ideas of things that we're going to share on the screen, but that's about as far as it's it's been planned. So if anybody does tune in and drop. Please feel free to comment and basically just let us know what you're thinking of it, is there something that you would like to talk about?

Is there something that you would like to see in a future episode like this? Just let us know. I have to do some housekeeping on I'm really sorry, because otherwise people don't know what we're doing. If you feel like sharing this. That is to say if you think, oh, this is curious. I know somebody who might be quite into this, probably the best way to share it is to go to the WP builds.com website and the URL is WP Builds.com forward slash live.

You need to be logged into. Googled. You don't, you can watch it. It's on a YouTube stream, but if you want to make comments, the chat box next to that is the YouTube comments. So you'd need to have a Google account. I guess the other option is to go to the Facebook group that is WP builds.com forward slash Facebook.

It's the second URL at the end there. And you can make comments in there. However, if you decide to do that you Facebook anonymizes, you it's about the only thing that Facebook does have an anonymous nature chat.restream.io forward slash FB is the URL. If you want to be de-anonymize. And basically if you've just got any thoughts, just drop them in the chat and stick them in.

But we're going to just talk, we'll talk until we've got nothing else to say, and then we'll end the call and we don't know whether that. Four minutes from now, or quite a bit longer, but we've got a few little talking points. We've got a few URLs that we'd like to show you things that are happening in the WordPress space, things that are coming up, things that may be, you've not heard of.

Maybe you don't know, you can contribute to and so on and so forth. So should we have, should we get to it? Let's do it. Let's do it. I'll get them in the order that you sent me the links on, if that's all right. This is the first one that you've got, and AMZ piece. You can find this on make.wordpress.org.

It was actually produced yesterday and it's entitled FSC, which I should say stands for full site editing. Hopefully you are aware of that full site editing program, authorizing and author templates summary. I could read this out and, but what's the point you're here. Tell us.

[00:05:02] Anne McCarthy: So we recently did a call for testing with the full study outreach program, and basically the calls for testing, give, little different use cases and you can explore features that are either coming to the next word, press release or that are under development.

So in this case, we did offering an author template because the author template is one of the templates coming to 6.0. And in this experience, you also got to explore a block locking which is a new UI that's available for you to actually lock down the interface. You can prevent blocks and being removed or moved.

And it access is still available, but that's also being worked on. But yeah, I wanted to highlight this because it touches on some interesting pain points that were found. And I think is a really good way to show how the feedback that comes from the community is integrated into the plants that were press has.

So in this case, if you scroll down a little bit, There's a high level summary, but then there's three little ones like outside of these quotes, a few items came up. So I wanted to call attention to these because they came up a fair amount which is pretty unusual songs calls for testing have one thing that like 10 people mentioned in this case, these were the three that very much came up repeatedly and I wanted to call them out just because it's a good way of looking at 6.0, in terms of the edges.

So in terms of block locking, one of the things that came up was that you can look. Container blocks if a group block or a columns, but if you want to lock everything inside a column right now, you have to individually and manually lock each block. So all this UI is really cool and it's a big step forward in terms of offering what used to curate your content actually like shut things down.

So people don't ruin designs or layouts. It also has some room to grow. So this is a really obvious pain point that came up and there actually are some designs in progress about what that might look like. Which I think is pretty, pretty neat. And this was just a big thing that came up and something to keep in mind with 6.0.

So if you're exploring 6.0, or really looking forward to block blocking, one of the things to keep in mind is this pain point another one?

[00:06:59] Nathan Wrigley: I just interrupt you. There is the intention to have some sort of recursive locking where you could get a parent item and basically say lock every. Yeah. So there's

[00:07:09] Anne McCarthy: a think if I linked to it there is a design that's in place or that's being explored right now where you could actually tell like a little checkbox that's lock everything inside of it too.

And the cool thing is list view, which is the tool that you can open to see the structure of your content. Reflects the lock status. So if you lock something, you can open up list, view and see at a glance what's locked across your page or template. Which I think is really neat. And that's also going to be in 6.0.

Because I know there were times when I was testing, locking, and then I forgot which ones I actually locked, opened up.

[00:07:42] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, yeah. The list view shows it. That's not, can you just give us some indication of what the permission structure for that will be? In other words, how what, and who are you locking out?

Obviously you're looking at a particular block or a set of blocks, which are children of other blocks, but is that handled? Is it user roles? And

[00:08:01] Anne McCarthy: yeah. So right now that sign, that needs to be expanded a bit more is it's currently available from what I understand for all admins and editors.

So you can actually, basically what it does right now is add friction. And in the future, that needs to be a bit more robust. You could write. At probably use a permissions plugin to actually get more granular control right now. But from what I understand, it's not super tied to use a role beyond obviously, admins being able to lock and unlock.

So if I locked something and we both were admins, you could also go and unlock it or lock it. So right now for admin level, I would describe it as adding friction. So you can't say like only this admin can log things, right? It's not that granular, but in the future, I imagine it's going to be tied both to more to user roles where it's a lot clearer and smoother experience and tied more to what I'll call.

More global items. So let's say you want to walk all like header template parts where people can't, they can insert them. They might be able to do like minor edits. They can't remove them or something like that. Like there are different explorations that need to be

[00:09:04] Nathan Wrigley: built upon. And I guess the fact that WordPress is taking over the design of pages and posts and templates.

In other words, inexperience users can go in and they can fiddle with things in the past. They've been able to fill out fields. And so the title and the body and what have you. But now that they're able to, I don't know, change the padding and the margin and the colors of things directly locking. Those kinds of things would be very useful for I guess freelancers and people who are building sites and passing them over, but just one, you can change the title, but not a lot else.

Or you can change. You can pick, but that's a really useful feature. I know that a lot of commercial page builders have got. Things built in so that you can lock out right down to the particular user, I think. And those will be excellent to have. Yeah.

[00:09:53] Anne McCarthy: Yeah. I'm excited to see that expand. One of the things that's come up too, that I've heard is as feedback is the post content block, which is basically what you can put in a template to have it display your post content.

People don't know what that is. So they've just been removing it and they're like, wait, why is this template not actually showing my poster page? There's this sense of not, there's not a connection there between what that actually does partially because it's called the post content block and not like a content block.

If you're working on a template that works on page, Yeah. You think you can remove your post content? It's you would think it makes sense, but that's something that's come up with a couple different folks that I've talked to where they're like, yeah, I wish you could just locked that down. I'm like now you could out a lock or maybe even having like a warning for certain blocks, like this, where it's don't remove this.

But this blocking mechanism also can apply to other things in the interface. So if you create like a pattern or something like that you could maybe set it up where it inherently comes, locked. You can't remove certain, maybe the group block and like the cover block inside of it or something like that.

You could lock that down and move everything else around. Okay. That's a really

[00:10:59] Nathan Wrigley: cool, that's a really useful development, isn't it? There's tons of applications to that. It's not one of the, I don't know, like the duo token filter, which seems like infer widespread. Yeah. I actually quite liked it, but a lot of people thought that was an interesting use of resources, whereas.

I don't think anybody could argue this one is genuinely useful. Yeah. Okay. What's the

[00:11:23] Anne McCarthy: next one. Yeah. The next one is around the template option. So there's five new template options coming to 6.0, so author date, techsonomy category tag. So those are all going to be new templates that when you're in the site or any hit, add new, you'll be able to include.

But right now, when you add them, they are empty. So you open them up and it's you're met with this blank slate. And that was something that this test, because you were working on the author template, which is a new one, it kept coming up. People were like, yeah, this is overwhelming. Why isn't this pulling from the archive template?

Justin Tatlock did a great writeup where he basically pointed that out. There are open issues thankfully around this, but this is something that came up a fair amount and right now is 6.0 as well. When you create a new title. And you're clicking to add a block when it's the root of the template.

And it's, you're at the bare bones, it will actually prioritize patterns, which is cool blank template. You also are being pushed to add a header pattern where it's like, you can quickly build something out. But still, I think in many ways, these should be improved where if for future releases, you're not just mapped with something that's completely empty.

So that was a big, obvious piece of feedback where it's like, how can we make this easier for folks when they're getting started?

[00:12:37] Nathan Wrigley: So it's gonna, it's gonna come prefilled hopefully with. Basic boiler plate stuff, which will at least give you an idea of, okay, this is how you lay it out. And these are the blocks that you need to use to make anything work.

[00:12:51] Anne McCarthy: Exactly. Yeah. And I think there's also a new pattern coming too, or new pattern by new flow coming to the add new page for 6.0. Or when you add a new page, it will present you with what's called like post content patterns. So if a theme specifies a specific category of patterns, it'll pop up there in a modal and you can select which one you want, or just close out of it and move forward in that same experience as part of what's being explored for these new template options.

So let's say you're creating a new template and you're presented with a couple current ones that you're like, okay, yeah, I want this to look like the single post template and I'll edit it further. You can do that. Or you could maybe have a start blank similar to the queer loop block experience.

So these whole, all of these things being integrated more with patterns and giving people some level of choice, I think is pretty neat. I also imagine. Some folks don't want the choice at all. So I'm sure there's gonna be ways to override it and be like, do not show me all these patterns. I just want to trust the theme author to, to, have these set up.

And that also will be possible based on the theme. So that's pretty cool. But yeah, that was a big piece of feedback was people were not, they're like, wait, we have all these patterns, you have all these things. Why are we,

[00:13:57] Nathan Wrigley: why is blank is never good as it does? There's no scenario where a blank pages is better than something half finished.

Yeah, I liked that the modal, which everybody just dismisses the first time you log into WordPress that, it's quite useful, isn't it pops up and it gives you some indication. I was using the the pattern creator, which we'll come onto in a minute. And I found that quite useful.

There was a very, I think it was like two or three steps. The modal popped up and gave me an indication of what I needed to be doing in order to make it work and how I could submit things and save things. And it was really useful. I think it was just a couple of steps, but it was something to look at as opposed to a blank screen and gave me.

Orientation of what I needed to be doing next.

[00:14:37] Anne McCarthy: Orientation's a great word. Yeah. That's exactly what I think we need to be doing is rather than someone needing to know exactly, oh, I need to add a header template part. It's like, how do we move that thought process of people are just playing with blocks.

Cause that's ultimately the aim. So

[00:14:51] Nathan Wrigley: we're good. Wait, hopefully by 6.0, we'll be, we'll have the option to do that with authors dates, taxonomies categories, and tags. I sweeps everything up. Doesn't it really there's a lot in that. Yeah. Yeah. And then the third.

[00:15:05] Anne McCarthy: The third thing is something that's also a dead end in my mind.

And something that I tried to push on, but we're in, this is where certain things are being moved. And we ended up in a little bit of a limbo. So for 6.0, the post name author block did not make it. And currently the post author block does not have a way for you to say like link to authors archives.

So you have an author template, it shows the archive of all and authors posts. Let's say. Creating a template and you want to link to that archive. So if someone's looking at a post, you can click on the author name would be clickable. You could then see all their posts in a customized template right now you can not link to that template automatically.

So you talk to manually linked to stuff which wouldn't even really work, especially if you were editing a template. So right now we basically have this back and forth with folks in the community who worked on this. And essentially it was like this is a bummer. Whenever we release the post name author block, which will probably come in 6.1, that includes that feature to link to the archive.

And rather than upgrading, essentially, what's soon to be an out of date block. We need to wait for this new one that comes with the functionality. So that's just another thing to keep in mind. If you start playing around with the author template and you want to take advantage of it and actually link off to it, that's something to have in your have in mind where you could have, you could send people their specific link if they wanted to share it.

But otherwise it's hard to link off to. Particularly bummed about this, but it's also a great find where this became very clear that folks would want to use it. Yeah. It's

[00:16:36] Nathan Wrigley: expected behavior. Isn't it really, that's what I would anticipate. I click on somebody's name as the author. I would like to see more.

Stuff, because certain news websites that I go to and things like that, and lots of sites that I go to, I look at comedy quite a lot, and I am intrigued by the way that person writes and speaks. And so I want to see more of them. And that is what I would expect to happen, click on the author and get more of their stuff.

So yeah,

[00:17:08] Anne McCarthy: That's how I feel. I love that experience where someone was like, and how likely do you think that I was like, this is very likely,

[00:17:13] Nathan Wrigley: oh, so likely, in fact, like completely expected behavior in my books. So then he came of, got some feedback from me, the just, I'm just going to put this page back to the

[00:17:26] Anne McCarthy: beginning of the, and the rescue goes through like minor details and sections and stuff like that.

I just wanted to call out those specific ones, but this is part of a summary of a call testing that people did. And if you participate in. First time contributor badge for the test team, which is pretty cool on your,

[00:17:41] Nathan Wrigley: tell us about the contributing piece, because you're all about, or at least you have been until recently, I don't know if anything has changed, but th that's really been a big part of what you've been doing.

You've been putting out things, asking people to come back and give you feedback. How does that, how is that all going? And obviously something like this is intended to aid that if anybody watches this and things that would be useful, I could allocate a few minutes of my time to, to help. And what's it all about how do you do it?

How does the process work and so on?

[00:18:11] Anne McCarthy: Yeah, so basically I write calls for testing and if you look at I don't know if you can pull up a test and then backslash tag and then like FSC, hyphen test

tag. Yup. And then it's like FSC, hyphen testing, hyphen call all of the poster tags with this. Hopefully that I get okay. Yeah. So this is an example of one where it goes through like an overview. Here are the features we're testing, here's the use case. So you don't have to come up. Let's say I was like, go test block walking, but you had no use case.

It's an odd thing to us. So I want to just go test because you don't have, you're not going to reach the edges of things. So the tests are meant to guide you. Some of them are more open-ended so some of them are like, okay, now go customize. As you'd like, or some are very detailed, right? Change the font size to 16 and change the color.

And it just depends on the stage of the features that we're testing. Is this super new and early? Is this more robust or like before the style system really made it hyper detailed? Where now it's a little bit more open-ended, which is fun. But it's pretty simple. So you need a wordpress.org profile.

You technically, I would have a make WordPress slack account. Just you can get reminders from me. Not necessarily though. Some people are not actually in the slack group, which is cool, but there's about, I think there's over 500 people in that channel now, which is wild. And you just follow the steps and you need a test site.

And one of the things I'm actually, according Robertson has been very helpful and I'm going to explore having I think it's instant WP. You can set up installations like one-click installations where rather than having to set up a test site, you could pull in an installation. Spin it up and it would come baked with everything that I might say.

So use the Gutenberg plugin, have these templates and set up, like whatever. I could have a bunch of

[00:20:06] Nathan Wrigley: stuff. Oh, okay. So that's really neat. Cause you've got over many of the problems. I would imagine that stopped people doing this is because of the first 20 minutes. You just fiddled. Exactly.

[00:20:18] Anne McCarthy: So I'm hoping that will, I'm actually going to try it for this next test, which should perhaps ship today.

I'm scrambling to do a bunch of different stuff, but I'm trying to figure out which blocks are we're going to focus on. But yeah, from there, you just go through the experience and share your feedback. So if you run into any pain points, no matter how big or small, or if you're like, I bet someone has said this before, say it again.

It really helps to see like requests over time. There are a number of issues that I will comment on and be like, hello, this came up and the FCR reach program 1, 5, 13, like I can list them off. And it's really it's really helpful to get a sense of what to work on next and where the pain points continue.

And then I basically will respond to you. So I'll be like, cool, thanks too much. Here's a new issue here is this connects to this. So it's a great way if you're trying to grow your knowledge about FSC to also do because you'll basically get someone to sweep through and Either explained the context of things or file the issues for you.

So it's a pretty, I really enjoy it. And you've had a number of new folks. So in terms of how it's going I love seeing the new faces. I also love, I think. Am I'm not sure. I'm probably mispronouncing his name. I'm going to have to ask him after, but he's responded to every single one only person.

And it's so cool. And then there's a peer Mario who translates them into Italian. He's translated most of them into Italian. And then we have another person. A couple of folks who've helped translate many of them in the Japanese, a couple in the Spanish. So if you have a different language locale it's pretty neat, but yeah, it's it basically.

Then I summarize all the feedback, find the patterns and write a summary post after.

[00:22:00] Nathan Wrigley: I'll ask a question. You may wish to answer it. You may not wish to, I don't know how outage would be. There's never enough feedback, I can consume as much feedback as anybody can give me.

Is that the case? Do you feel that, do you feel that there's enough people because I'm imagining the supposition is that for many things. The WordPress just creates itself and there's just a, it just magically appears look, oh there's a nice change log. That's brilliant. I wonder how that happened.

And obviously it's things like your FSC program, which make that happen. Do you feel you get enough? Is it a question of more, would be better? Are you happy with the sort of amount that you got at the moment? I'm thinking about your, whether you get overloaded or whether you believe by, we didn't really get a lot there, but I'll go with the, I'll go with my gut based upon the small amount of responses.

Just curious to know, really

[00:22:54] Anne McCarthy: both happens. There have been some where I'm like, oh I really need more feedback on this, world events are happening and I. I don't know, this is where I'm like very much a humanist and like suffers not as important to see the Vinci, but it's and I can gauge how I'm like writing feedback and like interacting with the folks who work on this stuff as to whether to be like really nag Hey, we need to get this fixed or be like, Hey, one person mentioned this.

It's a light feedback. So I might title an issue differently depending on things. Hey max. So it depends on how. What kind of the feedback that comes in, I will adjust how much I am. Like, Hey, five people mentioned this versus one person did. So there's some moderation happens on my end, but I will say like my ideal, and this is just a gut is I would love to have.

Maybe half the people who respond to a call for testing, be folks who've been a part of other calls for testing. So they have some history, they have some experience they're not completely new with will sighting. And then I love whenever brand new people come in, where they don't have experience.

And that's the piece with, I think having instead WP or an easier setup, I think that will unlock more folks from that realm. But in the meantime, folks like yourself and Courtney Robertson and Carrie dills and other people who've run group testing help facilitate. So if they can actually walk people through that's the set-up process it's huge.

And I've been feeling like I've been very lucky where other folks have come in and helped run some of those group testing that are more like breaking down each step to involve more people who might not otherwise, look at my posts and be able to get started. I would love more feedback.

So right now I would say we have probably an average. Saying we, but it's, I would probably say about the average responses is like 10 to 12. The lower side is probably six to eight. Sometimes I do get overwhelmed. I am very much human we're all of a sudden it's oh my gosh, like four responses came in one day and they're all really detailed and it's gonna, sometimes it takes me literally.

One to two hours to respond to just one person because I'm having to replicate everything and open the issue and write a coherent response rather than just being, Hey, it's filed. Like I try and really pay attention to what each person is saying because they gave me their attention in time.

So I'm very particular about that. So yeah, and I would love, I think it would be a great problem with all of a sudden I was so overwhelmed by how much feedback we were getting and other people I'm like, please let me know. That'd be a problem. We have I would love that and I honestly seek it out in other slack groups.

So there was someone in post status yesterday actually, who I was going back and forth with. Because they mentioned like I have some newbie FSE questions and I was like, okay, What's that. Yeah. I'll sit there with you and give me just as long as you're patient I'll go back and forth. I know we've done that to Nathan where it's like, what are you running into?

Cool. Let me give me some time, but I'll respond and get to make sure this is filed

[00:25:53] Nathan Wrigley: away. Okay. So that's our first bit, there's R there's a full site editing program, authorizing and author template summary. So go check that out. Honestly, I think that the quickest way is just to Google the title of the post, rather than me trying to read out that giant, but it was the 26th of April.

And if you can work out that you can probably feed that into the URL. If you are really habitual about going to make.wordpress.org, you could probably work that out. Okay. Let's move on. This is interesting web fonts API for WordPress 6.0, tell us about this and it's you again,

[00:26:33] Anne McCarthy: I'm very biased.

Yeah, so this is, I just want to first call out how much the contributors who worked on this. The, how much hard work was put into it and creativity under stress, which I think is really difficult to do. So a lot of people worked on this to get a solution in place and just like props.

But yeah, basically the web fonts API was originally punted from 5.9. So it was slated for 6.0, it helps you in queue and register fonts much easier and more performance than. Before. But one of the things that ended up coming up is that the approach to actually manage this API shifted. So a version was merged in February.

And when that happened, it was merging the Gutenberg plugin. And when that happened, some performance issues came up basically where if you registered it in cutes and fonts, it would actually like in queue all of them, even if you weren't using all of them. So huge performance problems. So someone's registering like 500 fonts because they want to give someone a bunch of options.

It would slow things down to a crawl and it was mainly through plugins that this performance problem was found. And. They led to this scramble of like, how do we fix these issues? What can we get into 6.0, and what resulted in is what I think is a really creative solution, because part of what was used with this API was style variations.

So style variations, or different style presets that you can switch between with block themes. And that includes fonts. So with this API together with style variations, you can actually have different fonts set up. And I think under envision, there might be a video that kind of shows this visually.

Cause I know sometimes it can be, yeah, I could get, I did include a video sometimes you never know my intent is to, and sometimes I forget but this video just shows an example of how this feature can actually be applied and some of the vision for it. So you can see there's different fonts in each of these and you can switch through to find the one that you like.

And right now, essentially for 6.0 and in beta three, which was released. A private scale-down version was released. So rather than the API being public and open for themes and plugins, instead, it'll just be available to actually work with in theme, Jason only so plugins plugin authors are going to have to wait until a future release and then block theme authors can explore this for now and actually use it with the style variations.

And if this is something that you're really excited about, I've seen a lot of people be like, oh, I can't wait for this to be I highly encourage you to help test it in the Gutenberg plugin because it will continue to evolve there. So that stopgap for 6.0 is not going to be in the Gutenberg plugin instead development is going to continue.

So if you are someone who likes to experiment and tinker, I highly recommend helping give feedback here, but this is just important and important call out because it was originally going to be somewhat of a headline feature for 6.0. And has very much changed because of.

[00:29:24] Nathan Wrigley: I got to say, I, I really do dig this UI here.

I think it's really, I've not seen anything quite like that way, just the ability to it. Here's a bunch of different things that might be on your site. Obviously. It's just nice boiler plate stuff, but click some buttons and get an immediate reaction to no, yeah. I'm curious about that. And then drill a little bit deeper.

This is going to be very exciting when it rolls out.

[00:29:53] Anne McCarthy: Yes. And this UI is not baked into the editor. So actually this ties into one of the issues. The navigation sidebar, dedicated navigation sidebar issue, because basically it's you're changing something, but you're just in the site area. So you might only be seeing one template and you can't, it's hard right now to browse between your site, like you could do with the customizer who click through your site to see how the changes applied, that functionality, that feeling is not currently possible.

The site editor with. Basically making some, updates. So that's still a pretty big pain point and there's some explorations now to explore how you could move through your site using navigation as like the guide, which is neat, but yeah, this was a big decision. A lot of hard work went into it.

And I really appreciate the transparency. In the conversations, like I think you can see in the 6.0 release leads, how thoughtful everyone was being and how to proceed.


[00:30:50] Nathan Wrigley: if you've got any more, if you got any thoughts on this and you would like to help again, this one is add pieces on, it's called the status of web fonts, API for WordPress 6.0 inclusion.

And and we're just bringing it to your attention if you didn't know about it. So there you go. Let's go on to our third piece. This is Mathias, obviously pleased about this surface navigation structure as a dedicated UI, right? This one has passed me by, I've got to confess. So you're going to have to explain it me.


[00:31:23] Anne McCarthy: it's I am torn about this implementation. I'll be honest, and I really can't wait to test it. And the FCA outreach program. So this kind of exploration you're also over here thinking hard about it, expect it in a future Irish program call. So I welcome you to join, but essentially what it does is it surfaces the actual navigation of your site.

And so what it allows you to do is to click between them. So imagine you have this on the sidebar

[00:31:49] Nathan Wrigley: a little bit bigger,


[00:31:54] Anne McCarthy: So you can see there's navigation and templates, and it's re-imagining the current sidebar experience, because right now things are split between what's global versus what's actually on the page that you're looking at. And so this expiration would move everything global to one side of your screen.

So you'd have styles, you'd have templates, and then you had this navigation structure all off to the side as this is the global section. And then you'd have the block setting sidebar on the other side and like your preferences and all that sort of stuff. But this would essentially allow you to navigate between your site within the site editor.

So if you clicked on products, for example, it would take you to the products template. And then you could edit from there. So it's a new way to browse your site, similar to what we were just talking about, where it's you might make a bunch of style variation changes, and then it's okay, what does this actually look like?

It would allow you to click between with ease which was cool to get a sense of how the changes you're making cascade throughout. I just don't know how people with people are gonna understand the experience. Cause it took me a minute to really sit in on these visuals.

[00:33:01] Nathan Wrigley: What was the piece that.

Questioning what was going, what was the dissonance that you couldn't quite get over right away?

[00:33:09] Anne McCarthy: It's con it's merging. It's it feels like it's merging too many things in a strange pathway, like that's and I don't like that. It's like navigation, and then you also might have a navigation block.

It's just it makes me pause around, what's actually going to show in navigation and what's powering that. And are people going to understand when they're clicking through that, they're then editing like that template, for example, where that needs what are you actually editing and what are you it's just like too much too soon, like a little bit, but that's part of these like pioneers,

[00:33:48] Nathan Wrigley: that's the point?

Isn't it? That is the point is just throw, throw spaghetti at the wall and see which bits people favor. And if you

[00:33:55] Anne McCarthy: scroll down, I think there's some videos. I think J D. Yeah, let's see what that one is. I think this is,

[00:34:07] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, this is the one I was thinking of. So the navigation with a button and then you click and now you're in the products template.

So imagine

[00:34:18] Anne McCarthy: you have this and that you open up like list view or something. There's just too many

[00:34:22] Nathan Wrigley: that's because, okay, I'm going to just pose it quickly there. W how does the list of you presumably wins that battle. It just sits over the top, but it feels almost like I've got the list view open, it's a different color, but looks, it's the same spot. It's the same coin to feel to it. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Let's carry on.

[00:34:48] Anne McCarthy: It just seems pretty bit like I'm like, I don't know. That feels like a pretty. And then there's like the templates here and the templates then, the back and navigation. It's just it's I dunno. It's a lot.

[00:34:59] Nathan Wrigley: It is. It is a lot. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. I am. I am perpetually confused by how much needs to be in the sidebars and, we're so used to having where you just navigate away and then you've got this full UI to do everything, and we're moving to a scenario where everything's going to be done in these little miniature sidebars.

And it's hard. It's hard to imagine how that would look and get it right. And have them, sidebars, which overlap sidebars and ones, which go instead of other ones. And I cannot graphy that you can rely on, oh no, that's the list view. Okay. That's the navigation or,

[00:35:39] Anne McCarthy: and then there's another issue I sent you also might cause another side.

It's if there's just a lot of experiences that they're trying to. There's a different one,

[00:35:50] Nathan Wrigley: a block pattern. No, that was the block patterns. Directory. What am I missing

[00:35:53] Anne McCarthy: sections on our, we send it to you. Okay. It's patterns as sections, I think is the name you would not believe how let's try

[00:36:02] Nathan Wrigley: this.

Yeah. Okay. Let me just grab that link. Thank you.

[00:36:06] Anne McCarthy: It was interesting one coming up. I think they will refine it cause we do need to start uniting things. So that is also a big piece of feedback. Is people being like, what, how does this, why can't I edit my post while I'm messing with the template?

This is annoying.

[00:36:19] Nathan Wrigley: Even the title of that is hard to pass. Isn't it patterns are sectioning elements hang on, wait, give me 30 seconds to figure out what that even means. Okay. Tell us what the, tell us what the gist of this is again, it's Mathias.

[00:36:31] Anne McCarthy: Yes. So this is another interesting issue that I think I think could unlock some cool stuff, especially with The experience of switching between patterns quickly.

So having an intuitive way to just like slide through different patterns. But essentially I'm like trying to avoid getting into hyper-technical. I was reading the technical implementation of that's. Okay.

[00:36:51] Nathan Wrigley: You can go technical if you like, I may be left behind, but

[00:36:54] Anne McCarthy: just like people worrying about how they want to implement it.

But it's like, how do you, could you make blocks have a support for patterns, for example. So is it a block support thing in the same way? Like gap support is like, how would you actually implement sections? But what's kinda cool is like the cycling through patterns. And this is how also has some visuals down below.

But essentially what it's saying is like, how can we designate something as these are sections of your site. So before playing the video, it's oh, here. Yeah. Perfect. See how it bounces out. So imagine each of these, the header, the middle content. Are all defined as sections. You say this is a heterosexual.

[00:37:36] Nathan Wrigley: That was pretty neat. I like that. That was a pretty clear indication to me that this is diff that bit's different to that bit. There's this great big black space.

[00:37:46] Anne McCarthy: Exactly. It's like global. This is like you're separating everything out. And then once it's separately. How can we take advantage of the increase in patterns that block teams are able to provide where you're like, Hey, here are all your header patterns.

So boom, you separate out. And then you can slide through and say oh, I want to switch up my header and you exactly

[00:38:05] Nathan Wrigley: where it is. All the head is in one place and you just, maybe you swipe left or up and down. But you can see them all one after another and select NA

[00:38:16] Anne McCarthy: and it explodes it. And obviously if there's huge problems with this too, but like the general concept is fascinating because it integrates the experience in a way that it's a mode you can move into.

So it's an exploded mode where you can see all the sections of your site. And then from there. More intuitively be like, okay, I want to switch this out. Just this one part, rather than maybe adding a pattern, deleting something else, like it contains it. And also when you're switching between this experience, they're exploring what it might look like to actually lock it a little bit.

So when you're in that zoomed out view, imagine you can swipe between things, but you can't. If you want to go back in and edit it, you have to go back into the flushed view where it's all together. Yeah. There's

[00:38:56] Nathan Wrigley: so much going on. Isn't there. I really liked that. I liked the way that looks and I've got to say I'm a sucker for this layout.

I like that. The modal with just here's the faceted filtering on the left is the visual representation of it on the right. Drop it in and then immediately decide yet don't delete, move on, try again, rinse and repeat. I like that. Can we see what else he's got? What's is this is another version bloated too.

Can we try that one?

[00:39:25] Anne McCarthy: Nope, let's do it. All of these experiences across. It's again, off to the side. It's another tool. The other thing in the sidebar you can move them around. I think this is the one that he shows. Yup.

[00:39:42] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Okay. I like that as well. Huh? I like that more. I think, although I wasn't aware.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. I don't know. Yeah. It's nice.

[00:40:02] Anne McCarthy: Yeah. And of course this is a contained prototype, but it is pretty cool. Like you can see the possible impact and it has a level of guardrails where someone. Rather than maybe tinkering as much, they might just go into this experience and like swipe through.

And if you have, if you're an agency and you have a client and they're requiring certain brands, imagine you just hook up all these patterns where someone's able to just be like, cool. I like this one moving on. Like having it be a bit more, as

[00:40:32] Nathan Wrigley: well, that whole swipe thing is the modern thing.

Isn't it? I'm so used to mousing up and down and using the scroll wheel. But I do, you're just used to doing that. Aren't you left right. Left right left. And it works, but whether or not that transfers to the mouse where you've got to find the button, which allows you to do it, I've seen I've seen implementations where let's say, for example, on a, like a modal pop-up with images, half of the image.

If you click that half of the image, you get to the next one. And if you click that half of the image, you go back to the previous one. So a big portion of the screen is the bottom. Do you know what I mean? Where it's a clickable area, like a click of it, but you don't really know it's a clickable area.

You just Intuit it and figure it. Oh, okay. That made it move. So it must

[00:41:24] Anne McCarthy: lower the opacity or something.

[00:41:25] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah. Or there's some sort of gradient or something to indicate that there's a, I don't know an arrow or something like that, but that, that looked fat. I'm digging this,

this is edits. So this is that it he's trying now to edit things in the video above, you'll see how the toolbar absorption and the block blocking can be dramatically simplifying how complex groups of blocks are edited. Okay. Let's give that a go.

[00:41:51] Anne McCarthy: All right. Flattened. Meaning it's very contained.

Like you can't actually edit things. So this is what I was describing is so if you do want to edit, you have to go back into the flattened.

[00:42:01] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So the exploded mode is just to pick it's

[00:42:08] Anne McCarthy: just move it around maybe, but like you can't to edit, you have to go back into, and yeah, max just said the animation is really nice and it is using animation to, to convey function.

I totally agree. Like the animation part of this I think is really something I'd love to see more like subtle animations throughout. Yeah. I

[00:42:24] Nathan Wrigley: think the black book, I'm going to say boulders for one of the better ones. It's not really is it, but the black. It totally get it. Give it gave me that feeling immediately.

Okay. This is all we've done now is just shrink what we had and now we've got options to do things with them. Okay. I like it. Yeah.

[00:42:41] Anne McCarthy: That's and that was honestly like the template editor that you can find through the post editor where it has that like gray background with go back or even like the template part focus mode.

Both of those don't really have animations, so you're just like, there, and it's not as this is feels more like, okay, I'm doing something and this is a different, this is a different experience. You've just brought me into something different. I think we can learn a lot from these sorts of things.

[00:43:04] Nathan Wrigley: Just a basic thing with blocks. When the ability, when you moved a block up and down where it glided instead of just suddenly move and you couldn't really keep a track of what you'd done, that was a real, and it was just a subtle animation. And that was the same feeling there. It was just something very subtle.

It shrunk. And it did the job anymore. There is focus. Okay. Let's just see what this one, hopefully it goes without saying that the prototypes and these videos. Oh, okay. No, he's not describing

[00:43:31] Anne McCarthy: it was not only deeply explored, but I think some folks are starting to been seeing some PRS about what that might look like.

So this would be focused mode, I think is what, yeah.

[00:43:47] Nathan Wrigley: So was I got to watch that again cause I'm trying to figure out what the gray bits at the top and the bottom or edit. Okay. So is that,

[00:43:57] Anne McCarthy: so you know how there's template part focus mode? It's basically applying that concept. To like these sections. So in the same way you can edit, you can only do focus mode with a template part, like a header or footer, you can do like sidebars, all that sort of stuff.

This would be bringing that same experience to sections. And this is just a new look and feel. And again, like Jay says very high level, like this is all this stuff that we're talking about right now is very lucky in the future. But it's neat to look at currently because ideally once these explorations can be start getting into GitHub and into Gutenberg, we can actually test them and go through them and be like, this is really good.

This is really confusing. I need two more steps in between here. Use this animation more or less I got

[00:44:41] Nathan Wrigley: a saying none of that was confusing, but but it was some of it was beautiful. I really like it. So WordPress get hub. It's called patterns, sectioning elements. It's number 3, 9 2 8 1.

If you're interested 8th of March. And presumably Mathias wants a bunch of bunch more commentary at the bottom. There's quite a lot there. There's you again? Oh yeah. Because one of the

[00:45:12] Anne McCarthy: things that came up was like, okay, wait someone was like, how is pattern as a section? How is that different than a template part or usable block a pattern?

Like we already have all these terms. And so there's like an interesting back and forth. I think it's on this issue. There's a

[00:45:26] Nathan Wrigley: really good learn video.

[00:45:29] Anne McCarthy: From the yeah, the article I wrote that's actually, I also wrote that

[00:45:33] Nathan Wrigley: story. Are you linking to that video of what's the difference between a template apart on a block and a pattern and all of that, and it's about six minutes long, but it just nails it.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's that? That was brilliant. I'm so glad you put that in front of us. Should we go on to our next one? The global styles one? Yeah. So this is. Critter verse. I don't transpose that to a real

[00:46:01] Anne McCarthy: name. The 6.0, she's fantastic. She's just, yeah. Wonderful. And this came up in the product walkthrough.

So there was a walk through, that was a new thing that was done ahead of 6.0 instead of the go no-go. And it's basically a moment where folks on the release team and contributors pause and take stock of everything that might be coming. And so one of the things that came up was just wanting to improve, actually being able to stave different style variations.

So in the same way that you can now have salvations in your theme, it's like, what does it look like if I were to want to see. My own. And so it's this is again, design prototype. This is again, next level of 6.0, will not have this. But I think it's a really neat idea. So imagine I go into the site editor, I have a solid variation that I come up with and customize and tweak to my liking and let me save this.

I'm going to save this on my end. Have it be like a same, like a custom palette color. It's I can have my own style variation. And then let's say, I want to explore 20, 22 to see if it's better than mine. I can switch between that. And then also, still have my own. Which I think is really an important thing.

Like right now I'm using 20, 22 on my personal site, but I can't wait for. The variations are three style variations that are come out with 6.0, but I'd love to be able to revert back to what I had without having to just say,

[00:47:18] Nathan Wrigley: There's a reset to default button, but obviously you can save it.

And just keep, just keep saving, make a tweak, keep him version one, version two, three hundred and ninety eight later. I preferred six or something like that. Yeah. Okay. I don't know what to add to that really, but that's just more, not apple. So I'm not even really cognizant of where I'm, where I would be going with this.

But oh,

[00:47:49] Anne McCarthy: so if you look at do you see underneath all this there's that style variations button to the right? Yeah. So if you clicked in on that, basically it would allow you to open up similar to that video. We watched 20, 22, it would have like different little sections that you could click from.

And it's just a really neat and at a glance, it'll change everything, another pain point and the experience, I'm all about pain points. Everyone's you're so full setting. It's not useful. I will tell you all the pain points. Like I sit in it every single day.

It's very powerful, but I also I love to be transparent about yep. We've seen this. Yeah. If you run into this, you're not losing your mind. Right now, if you let's say you change the style variation for your site and completely switched your fonts, your colors, your layout, all that sort of stuff.

And then went to hit save the multi save flow would just say like you. Global styles. It doesn't give you a granular look at what changed saving experience is very blunt and it needs to be more nuanced and granular. And that's also in progress. So like I've had some folks be like, I didn't realize it was going to change the changes, literally everything.

So that's another part of this that when we think about like how the different releases are adding up to each other, so like 5.8 introduced like themed Jason, and 5.9 has this like styles interface, 6.0 is going to have these style variations. It's like 6.1. We need to be able to save our own. We need to have more granular save options.

We know what's changing, we need to be able to, I don't know, export these things more readily, which I think is also available in 6.0. But there's a lot of playing around with like additional functionality that I think will be really cool in the future.

[00:49:32] Nathan Wrigley: I love all this behind the curtain stuff and they just it's not behind the curve.

There's no curtain. There's only the sort of othering to go and look in my case, but it's just fascinating. Isn't it? You get a window into what might be and what might not be. So this was number, this is credit verse. Who did you say that was? I'm sorry. I was over talking. You churning Ritter.

Okay. Thank you. And it's number 3 8 3 3 3 on Gutenberg WordPress, Ellen. And she says some of the possibilities there on the discussion of automatically saving and copying when customizations are made to a theme provided variation and providing two options under the use. When the user applies a style variant.

Merge with current user plus apply or just apply. Okay. Okay. There's a lot in there as well. That's five. Have you got anything else to add to that one? No,

[00:50:31] Anne McCarthy: not to this.

[00:50:32] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. Should we just talk about the pattern directory quickly, which is super cool. Yeah. W what's not to love here, like it's cut down the time of building a website dramatically by leveraging the work of millions of other people.

Hopefully. This is really exciting. It's not new news, but there's a, there is a new component, which is the, this little bit here, the ability to create a new pattern. If you've not been to the pattern directory, it's a way you'd expect it to be it's wordpress.org. And it's like a third menu item.

It gives you some indication of how important it's going to be. And you can filter by. You want to look at buttons. There's no bottoms. You want to look at color. There's no columns. You want to look at featured this new feature? I don't know. I don't know what it'll be my it'll be my brave browser.

Let me just switch off the I'm going to go. It'll be because I've got brave and they've got this little crazy feature in brave where they block all sorts of things. So let's try that again. There we go. So buttons, columns featured gallery. Yeah, that's right. It's called the directory, but there's nothing.

There's no content asshole, but it's a nice UI. So you can browse all these different bits and pieces, which is fabulous. And the idea would be that, you go somewhere and you like one, you just have a quick look. This is neat. I don't know if you've, if you're watching this and you haven't, you just get, this is cool.

I just love this functionality. You just give it whatever size you would like. And it updates at the top tells you exactly where you are. You're gonna to. What your website is breakpoints are going to be, and you can have a good old look at it. And then if you like it, you, if you're logged in, you can add it to your set of favorites or you just copy it and you're done.

You just go see a website and command V and boom. There it is. Free gratis layouts. How cool is that

[00:52:33] Anne McCarthy: in 6.02? I'll have to mention that you can actually set different patterns to be featured in the inserter using theme Jason from the pattern directory. So let's say there's three or four, three or four different patterns that your client really likes.

You can put them in theme, Jason and have it automatically be in the inserter and prioritized, which is really, I'm super excited about that. So

[00:52:54] Nathan Wrigley: you, as an agency owner, you go presumably the flow is you go through with your clients, which of these do you like, or I'll decide what's going to fit the, the brand or what have you.

And then you just pick them, put them in the theme, Jason, and then they are automatically that's.

[00:53:11] Anne McCarthy: Yeah, it's one of those things that people, I actually just did a YouTube video on 6.0 yesterday. And almost it was like choosing between a couple different functionalities to show what the block theme, workflow improvements, but there's a lot of stuff coming with 6.0 that I think block Demers and folks with, like in a client situation will really to offer some curation where it's okay, you just, you keep using these same patterns in the word, pattern directory, or if these are really good let's just have those featured using theme.

Jason, it's very simple. You don't even have to copy and paste them. All you need is that slug. And basically like theme, Jason will pick up on it and pull it from the pattern directory.

[00:53:47] Nathan Wrigley: So you literally copy and paste the slug, shove it in the theme. Jason Farlan that's it. You don't let me see

[00:53:53] Anne McCarthy: if I can pull up, I'm going to pull up an example

[00:53:57] Nathan Wrigley: actually to share your screen, you can do, if you like, can I, okay, hold on.

Maybe it's the little button at the bottom. It looks

[00:54:03] Anne McCarthy: like it's more behind the scenes of.

[00:54:06] Nathan Wrigley: If you don't want to, that's fine. I know you've got like a thousand things going on with, I just

[00:54:11] Anne McCarthy: opened up whenever you were like open up a new tab. I was like, that's a good idea. That'd be fine.

[00:54:16] Nathan Wrigley: Sure. Thank you.

By the way, max, you're putting a lot of effort into this and we haven't really been raising Euro your comments. So whilst you do that, I'll just talk about Max's comments, which is really nice. He said there's so much movement and things shifting around. So we're back to the the piece that we had earlier with the surface navigation structure hope things settled down and we can learn WP again.

Yeah, I guess at some point the playground has to stop, but we have to actually set up something and just all of us learn that the animation is really nice. I would agree. That was the bit that stood out for me. It has a bird's eye feel to it. Yup. Yup. I'm on a higher management. Yeah. And you've got the feeling that you're on a hike.

Yeah. That's right. So you pull it, it's shrinking away on your rising up. I'm with you. Then he says the animations have to be something that we can rely on and learn subconsciously. Yeah. Okay. Do you want me to put that on my screens?

[00:55:14] Anne McCarthy: My permission. It wouldn't make me close out of Chrome.

And I was like, okay, that's a non-starter so these are two of my slides where YouTube video I did. So I don't care. I have zero problem sharing. I'll probably will share this on a blog post. Eventually, if you go down to slide 40

[00:55:30] Nathan Wrigley: boy, I know

[00:55:32] Anne McCarthy: this was a 22 minute long video. This is what it looks like.

So it's just these short

[00:55:38] Nathan Wrigley: pieces.

[00:55:39] Anne McCarthy: Yeah. That's why I was like, I really want to show this visual cause it's streamlined. So it's

[00:55:45] Nathan Wrigley: two lines, two lines. Yeah.

[00:55:49] Anne McCarthy: And both of those short texts and partner logos are in the pattern directory and you just add them into thing. Jason, I think Jason's wildly powerful for curating the experience.

We can turn a bunch of stuff off. You can provide custom duotone filters. You can provide a custom color palette. Like you can do a lot of really cool stuff. If you mess with him, Jason, right now, it's most blocked. Things are very open-ended intentionally. But I know going forward, I think it's gonna be really cool to see how people actually make it

[00:56:14] Nathan Wrigley: their own.

Yeah. It feels to me like theme, Jason's going to be the new cool thing. Everybody's going to be making tutorials on it and how to tweak him. Yeah. Yeah. But it's inevitable, right? It's totally inevitable, but it's just not at the point of common usage. So I think a lot of the the YouTubers, maybe don't go into that cause it's, it's bleeding edge and wait for things to settle down.

Yeah, that's really straightforward. Let's just go back to this one though. So we mentioned that the, we have the option to create a new pattern that leads you to. If you're logged in and we've somehow managed to dismiss the modal that let me just click on that. Is it going to run it a second? And now of course, we went run that a second time.

And this is the ability now to you can basically, I'm not going to waste your time putting a load of groups and blocks and cover blocks and all of that on the screen, but you can, I've made a really monstrously. I'll give you one earlier. It was so bad. It had cat pictures in it. That's how bad it was.

And within a couple of minutes you can have you can have your own pattern figured out, and then here's the secret source. You can then once you've got something, you can submit it this little button to the pattern directory. And now I, my understanding and I'm going to be talking to.

And Kelly who are working on the partner directory project next week. I believe it's Tuesday, I'm chatting to them. So I'll get them. I get the low down on what the rules are, because obviously, you can keep the caveats, the cats are fine, there might be other things which nobody wants to see.

And there's probably some sort of, guidelines about the way that things are laid out. And I'm imagining, I don't know accessibility in terms of color contrast and things like that. I don't know, but you'll be able to submit it and save it as well so that you can come back to it later. You can save it as a draft and it appears in your wordpress.org account and you can come back to it later and tweak it and fiddle with it.

And it, this is just great. Hopefully you can you can totally imagine a scenario a year from now and let's fingers crossed that it will be where there are literally hundreds of thousands of these patterns for absolutely everything. Don't look at any of mine, cause they'll all have cat pictures and rounded corners with dotted borders.

That's what it was like. People who are expert at this and really have design chops will be able to go in here and make things freely available for the community. Then they'll come coming here. And then I guess at some point we're going to be suffering the deluge of plugin, the plugin directory.

How do we surface the good stuff? And from what you're saying you'll be able to surface the good stuff from your client, for your clients, at least anyway, with the theme Jason file. And you could do that for yourself. So this is all very exciting. I'm guessing that you're excited about this. Oh, I

[00:59:07] Anne McCarthy: love this stuff.

And I'm like, one of the things you're saying is I guess, how do you surface the good stuff? I'm wondering if there's a way to pull in your favorites. Maybe if you authenticate between the director and your account I don't know if there's some intelligence that we can do there, but I'm super

[00:59:21] Nathan Wrigley: well, I would, I was thinking exactly that and what I was thinking was I would like a favorite.

Container then I, which then I can put other containers into. So it might be a, not your containers, not buttons, columns feature. I want to call things, cats or, I don't know, buttons or whatever my own categorization, or even just by project or website name. And then to be able to just pull those in on the other end would be absolutely magnificent.

Yeah. Okay.

[00:59:57] Anne McCarthy: Yeah. I'm with you plus one. Okay, so Kelly.

[01:00:01] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that's right. That's right. We'll see. You see how far that suggestion goes. That podcast episode, I think, has been more where we're at not not Nathan tells the people what they should do. That's right. Yeah. We've gone through, we've gone through the lot.

I found that really cool. Thank you, max, in particular for giving us so much commentary did you like the format, max? Maybe you. Yeah, if you have, that's fine. But I am the, one of the purposes of this episode was to figure out whether or not there was any legs to this and whether or not we had the pattern.

I liked what we did there. Like that we had a bunch of stuff on the screen and we just talked through it and go through the issues and so on. How did you feel?

[01:00:45] Anne McCarthy: Yeah, this was great for me and I there's a lot of stuff that's in my head is in my mind, it's not common knowledge, but it's just rumbling in my head.

So if there are things that people want to have us talk about in the future, I'm always gained to either read up or share what I know and connect some dots. So this is great for me because a lot of this stuff I think is coming up and it helps I think, prepare the community and it gives an easier place for me to talk about these things rather than words.


[01:01:11] Nathan Wrigley: Max says he loved it. Thank you, max. That's really good. We deliberately, or at least I should say ally. I deliberately didn't really mention it until yesterday because I just wanted it. I just wanted it for and I to go through the process with. Without the thought of, oh, is this going to be good enough or whatever?

So maybe we'll maybe we'll make this, I don't know. I shouldn't say this. Maybe we'll make this a regular thing. That's obviously entirely up to Ann. But that would be nice. I would

[01:01:36] Anne McCarthy: love that. And I think along with the social learning space is going through the calls for testing. I think both, that's how I've been doing the hallway Hangouts, and I think this is a much more, a better format.

So very cool. And you also said, and max, I saw, you said, are there pattern vendors yet? There are not. There are designs that fit together, quote, unquote, meaning you have categorization, but you don't actually, you can't just bundle them as like all these designs go together. You can have block themes that have like 20, 22 has their own set of bundled patterns that go with the theme, but that's as close as you're going to get.

Hopefully that helps answer the question.

[01:02:11] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you, max. And then it's not really a question, but Neil, I didn't know you were there, Neil, but thank you for joining us. Interesting insight would definitely watch more. Okay. There we go. Yeah. That's a nail said and you're coming back with your luck or not.

Thank you, Neil. Appreciate that. So we'll knock this one on the head and we'll try to be a bit more forthright about, I don't know, marketing, if we're one of about, we're telling people that we're doing it next time and hopefully there'll be more people in the comments and so on, but for now that's been really interesting.

It's a wrap. We'll we'll see you next time. We do the show that has no name yet, but we'll give it a name at some point. All right. Cheers. Thanks. Bye.


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